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Author Topic: Patriarch Ilia II calls for ban on "gay rights march" "Gay-Rights Rally"  (Read 6309 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2013, 12:04:21 PM »

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

As opposed to silence and looking as if Orthodoxy endorses such behavior?  Might as well allow the Muslims to sing in honor of the terrorist Christians to expose our alleged hypocrisy.   The Egyptian Muslim author did so with his novel "Azazel" to show that St. Cyril was a terrorist leader that lead the killing of Hypatia, despite research not able to prove it.  Nevertheless, it makes a juicy opportunity for the non-Christians.  So why shouldn't we be strong in our condemnations of these so-called "Orthodox Christians"?

I condemn the violence as well as the support for sexual immorality. The ideology of the latter, however, is provocative. As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.
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« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2013, 12:05:19 PM »

(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.
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« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2013, 12:06:42 PM »

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

As opposed to silence and looking as if Orthodoxy endorses such behavior?  Might as well allow the Muslims to sing in honor of the terrorist Christians to expose our alleged hypocrisy.   The Egyptian Muslim author did so with his novel "Azazel" to show that St. Cyril was a terrorist leader that lead the killing of Hypatia, despite research not able to prove it.  Nevertheless, it makes a juicy opportunity for the non-Christians.  So why shouldn't we be strong in our condemnations of these so-called "Orthodox Christians"?

I condemn the violence as well as the support for sexual immorality. The ideology of the latter, however, is provocative. As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.

Then I'd like to see them come out and condemn the violence that happened.  I'd like to see some of those priests provide for the well-being of those injured and killed.  A father may have not told his son to go and throw stones, but when a son goes and throws stones, the father is still responsible.
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« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2013, 12:06:53 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
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« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2013, 12:09:27 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?
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« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2013, 12:09:41 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

They have the safe haven of their own country.  The world may say whatever they want.  If that's the case, Saudi Arabia has big cahonays (sp?) for continuing to make it illegal for women to drive.  That's not guts.  It's guts if all of a sudden the country is controlled by the world.  The Muslim Brotherhood has guts for attacking the Coptic cathedral.  Ya...sounds like guts.  The world decries, and the country doesn't change.

Why use Mohammedans as a point of reference for anything?
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« Reply #96 on: May 18, 2013, 12:10:00 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.

Georgia has proven to be almost a puppet of Western Europe and the United States, so implications that his holiness Patriarch Ilia is a puppet of Georgia is laughable.
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« Reply #97 on: May 18, 2013, 12:11:08 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

They have the safe haven of their own country.  The world may say whatever they want.  If that's the case, Saudi Arabia has big cahonays (sp?) for continuing to make it illegal for women to drive.  That's not guts.  It's guts if all of a sudden the country is controlled by the world.  The Muslim Brotherhood has guts for attacking the Coptic cathedral.  Ya...sounds like guts.  The world decries, and the country doesn't change.

Why use Mohammedans as a point of reference for anything?
Because when someone says that someone in a remote country has guts against the world opinion, then by consistency, even they have guts.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

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« Reply #98 on: May 18, 2013, 12:13:52 PM »

(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.

I'm not talking about strong in terms of faith. If you want to talk about leaders strong in faith, we can talk about St. Justinian, St. Sava and his father St. Stefan, St. Vladimir the Great and others.
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« Reply #99 on: May 18, 2013, 12:18:51 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
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« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2013, 12:19:04 PM »

(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.

I'm not talking about strong in terms of faith. If you want to talk about leaders strong in faith, we can talk about St. Justinian, St. Sava and his father St. Stefan, St. Vladimir the Great and others.

Memories of these men live on as inspirations, while the memories of Stalin and Hitler will live on as damnworthy.  If only making long-lasting memories gives someone strength, then the saints as much as the tyrants are equally strong.  I make no distinction, even on a moral level, let alone spiritual.  Tyrants withered away time and again, which only proves their inherent weaknesses, not strengths.
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« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2013, 12:22:34 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
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« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2013, 12:24:06 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.

I'm not saying you shouldn't stand against sins.  But with what happened, with the videos shown, the Church should take a stand against this violence.  They can balance it with condemnation of homosexuality, but perhaps there should be a way to change their approach to protests, so that things like this won't happen again.  Otherwise, you actually are doing exactly what the opposition wants, that is to make them look like martyrs.  It's the glory and driving force of a movement.

Why are you bringing up the story of St. Nicholas?  Why the double talk?  First you say we can't verify that this is Church-sponsored violence and now you're bringing up the story that makes it look like the Church-sponsored violence can be justified.  Perhaps we should dogmatize the story and make it canonical for bishops to go and punch heretics and sinners.
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« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2013, 12:48:06 PM »

(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.

I'm not talking about strong in terms of faith. If you want to talk about leaders strong in faith, we can talk about St. Justinian, St. Sava and his father St. Stefan, St. Vladimir the Great and others.

Memories of these men live on as inspirations, while the memories of Stalin and Hitler will live on as damnworthy.  If only making long-lasting memories gives someone strength, then the saints as much as the tyrants are equally strong.  I make no distinction, even on a moral level, let alone spiritual.  Tyrants withered away time and again, which only proves their inherent weaknesses, not strengths.

Ever hear of Genghis Khan or Kublai Khan? They committed what is equivalent in modern days to genocide, yet they aren't remembered as damnworthy leaders. What Stalin & Hitler did was absolutely terrible, but longer-term history has a tendency to change perspectives of leaders many years after.
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« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2013, 12:54:16 PM »

Eh, history depends on the historian. The Mongols like Genghis Khan. The Greeks like Alexander the Great. The Arabs, not so much for both.

Not that anyone here would probably agree, but Hitler and Stalin are really very different leaders. Hitler was motivated by ideology so much that it blinded him. Stalin was not so motivated, I don't think. His rule suggests a certain amount of pragmatism. (Interestingly, after Hitler's invasion of the USSR, Stalin's officers visited him at his dacha. Stalin thought, after hearing the news, that they had come to arrest him. Instead, they had come to ask what his orders were.)
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« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2013, 01:00:08 PM »

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.
But we're talking about Christians here, not pagans.
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« Reply #106 on: May 18, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.
But we're talking about Christians here, not pagans.

Are we? I wouldn't bet on it. Most people in our countries are nominally Orthodox, but definitely not sympathetic to gay people. If such a protest were to happen here, I'm sure that lots of homophobic thugs would jump at the chance to bash the gay, with or without patriarchal blessing. So the fact that some clergy were involved doesn't mean that the anti-parade was staged to happen like this by the Church. Things were bound to get out of control once the mob was unleashed.   
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« Reply #107 on: May 18, 2013, 01:29:02 PM »

Fair enough.
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« Reply #108 on: May 18, 2013, 02:34:17 PM »

If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   
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« Reply #109 on: May 18, 2013, 02:40:24 PM »

If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Why do you venerate her?  This isn't a rhetorical question, this is an honest one.

Why we venerate people like St. Constantine or St. Augustine?  Or for the previous comment, why St. Nicholas as well?
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« Reply #110 on: May 18, 2013, 02:41:35 PM »

If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   
Perhaps we've-most of us,at least-evolved somehow since then

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« Reply #111 on: May 18, 2013, 02:47:31 PM »

If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Why do you venerate her?  This isn't a rhetorical question, this is an honest one.

Why we venerate people like St. Constantine or St. Augustine?  Or for the previous comment, why St. Nicholas as well?
Because God has glorified them.
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« Reply #112 on: May 18, 2013, 02:47:34 PM »

If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Why do you venerate her?  This isn't a rhetorical question, this is an honest one.

Why we venerate people like St. Constantine or St. Augustine?

why not? the church has recognized that God has glorified them. The path to heaven is narrow, but that doesn't mean there is only one narrow path. Martyrs being one example, the monastic ascetic life being another, and married ascetic life being another.

I've still been trying to read the Brother's Karamazov. While it is fiction, it still is very reflective of Russian thought and life at the time. In the story, Elder Zosima dies and his body almost immediately starts smelling of corruption, which leads everyone (except his closest friends and the more learned monks) to assume he is in hell. Yet of course, that (the incorruption of a body) is just one sign of his holiness, neither is the "yellow bones" as put forward by other monks in the novel. Many of our Saints' relics are bare bones, including Biblical figures we know are glorified.

Just as in that illustration, there are multiple, narrow paths to heaven. One doesn't just have to be a hermit in the desert of Egypt, the forested mountains of Greece or the tundra of Russia. One can be a soldier who has killed people in warfare, but who is killed by his army for being a Christian. Certainly, many of the Apostles probably didn't experience the light as some later spiritual elders experienced, yet they still attained the kingdom. Look at Dismas as another example, a murderer, a criminal who was justly condemned, but who, at his death, repented to God himself who hung next to him, and was saved.
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« Reply #113 on: May 18, 2013, 02:49:13 PM »

Eh, history depends on the historian. The Mongols like Genghis Khan. The Greeks like Alexander the Great. The Arabs, not so much for both.
Actually we, Christian and Muslim, like Alexander a lot.
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« Reply #114 on: May 18, 2013, 02:50:49 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
Why not?
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« Reply #115 on: May 18, 2013, 02:56:09 PM »

Eh, history depends on the historian. The Mongols like Genghis Khan. The Greeks like Alexander the Great. The Arabs, not so much for both.
Actually we, Christian and Muslim, like Alexander a lot.

Really? Hmmm, then that would mean the BBC was wrong! Oh no!
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« Reply #116 on: May 18, 2013, 02:56:59 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
Why not?

Because they need to concentrate on being irrelevant.
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« Reply #117 on: May 18, 2013, 03:55:59 PM »

As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.

Some proofs?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong

You have just gained another one level in lack of conscience.
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« Reply #118 on: May 18, 2013, 03:59:57 PM »

Isa, Devin, thank you for the posts, but you did not answer my question.  I did not ask why we should not venerate them.  I asked why are they venerated?  Or better yet, why did God glorify them?

And I'm not saying they shouldn't be venerated.  I'm looking for a different answers for each saint.

Why is Adam, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc. all venerated, all glorified?  Was every part of their existence infallible?
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« Reply #119 on: May 18, 2013, 04:15:23 PM »

I also wanted to see what Elpidiphoros' answer would be as well.
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« Reply #120 on: May 18, 2013, 04:40:43 PM »

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/

Except you leave out everything before, where he talks about how the rise of atheism came about BECAUSE of the enlightenment ideals, causing even the church itself to lose much of its values and become secularized. And, pointing out, even today it is happening in the Russian church especially with the laity who are brought up in such "western" mindsets. ( I would argue it is happening in all the churches) Of course, the blogger you linked to laments there was no reformation in Russia. And points out, after the quote you said claims

 "Perhaps there are movements within Russia that are moving ad fontes back to the Scriptures, but what I see is a reactionary movement that glories in the past and believe in a crystalized version of unchanging doctrine. I believe all this is greatly to the disadvantage of the Russian Church and nation. May God grant them more light and the ability to change where they need to."

Reactionary movement that glories in the past and BELIEVE IN A CRYSTALIZED VERSION OF UNCHANGING DOCTRINE

This brings up a good point, there seems to be many in the Orthodox Church today who are against unchanging doctrine, instead are for changing it! (largely just to fit the mold of the "enlightened" ideals they were taught in secular schools...)



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« Reply #121 on: May 18, 2013, 05:06:37 PM »

I know some of the hard-line priests who led the counter protest. They're kind and sincere people and their hearts are certainly in the right place, though I don't agree with their methods or some of their opinions.

Patriarch Ilia belongs to a much more moderate trend within the Georgian Church, and anyone who knows him would find the idea that he would be in favour of violent opposition absurd.
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« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2013, 05:21:39 PM »

Patriarch Ilia belongs to a much more moderate trend within the Georgian Church, and anyone who knows him would find the idea that he would be in favour of violent opposition absurd.

I agree with this assessment. I have heard Patriarch Ilia also condemned the violence, but I cannot find a source. I am not too good at finding any releases from the georgian church.

I also agree with Patriarch Ilia being a moderate, seeing as he left the World Council of "Churches", albiet only because many of the most prestigious monasteries threatened to cease commemoration of him unless he left the organization.
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« Reply #123 on: May 18, 2013, 05:22:14 PM »

How do you explain this?

Why is Adam, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc. all venerated, all glorified?  Was every part of their existence infallible?

Those people were set aside for the purposes of God. That's what holy means.

We aren't methodists. Being a saint doesn't mean that person was "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" or whatever.
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« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2013, 07:49:59 PM »

How do you explain this?

Why is Adam, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc. all venerated, all glorified?  Was every part of their existence infallible?

Those people were set aside for the purposes of God. That's what holy means.

We aren't methodists. Being a saint doesn't mean that person was "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" or whatever.
Exactly!  Couldn't have said it better. I'm amazed that no one else could answer this though.

So now, since we got the point across that they had a special purpose with God and that they weren't always morally straight, then why bring up events of killing and shortcomings of a saint, as if they're justified?  What's the purpose of talking about St. Theodosia killing an iconoclast?  Does that mean that because a saint did it, it makes it right?

I'm trying to challenge the reason behind those who bring up saints that did wrong things as if they're right. It worries me if that's really what they're venerated for.  Might as well make justifications for collateral damage in wars because the old testament seems to have allowed it as a military side-product.
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« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2013, 08:16:36 PM »

Amazing how some people seem to think they know what's best for the Georgian nation more than the much-loved Patriarch of Georgia...
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« Reply #126 on: May 18, 2013, 08:45:52 PM »

Then I'd like to see them come out and condemn the violence that happened. 

As would I. 

I'd like to see some of those priests provide for the well-being of those injured and killed. 

In what way?  Unless they are doctors or nurses, what could they provide?  Spiritual support?  Doubtful they would want to even see the priest.

A father may have not told his son to go and throw stones, but when a son goes and throws stones, the father is still responsible.

In no way is your statement even remotely accurate.  Grown men are responsible for themselves.  If they were of school age, they should be home.
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« Reply #127 on: May 18, 2013, 08:54:34 PM »

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
Why not?
Because people have, foolishly in my opinion, decided the Church should have no influence on politics and as a result, be completely hands off.  What they fail to understand is, as a Christian we are called to live every aspect of our life in that capacity, including politics.
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« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2013, 08:58:14 PM »

Amazing how some people seem to think they know what's best for the Georgian nation more than the much-loved Patriarch of Georgia...

Good point.
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« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2013, 09:04:02 PM »

Then I'd like to see them come out and condemn the violence that happened. 

As would I. 

I'd like to see some of those priests provide for the well-being of those injured and killed. 

In what way?  Unless they are doctors or nurses, what could they provide?  Spiritual support?  Doubtful they would want to even see the priest.

A father may have not told his son to go and throw stones, but when a son goes and throws stones, the father is still responsible.

In no way is your statement even remotely accurate.  Grown men are responsible for themselves.  If they were of school age, they should be home.

In some financial way.  If they were implicated in the stone throwing and the violence, they have to pay.

Well, then, if they are grown men, excommunicate them until they repent.  This way, the Church would be clear they will not tolerate anyone who in walking with the priests and bishops in the protests become violent.

But if they're silent, then they are responsible for their actions based on their silence.
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« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2013, 09:26:48 PM »

As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.

Some proofs?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong

You have just gained another one level in lack of conscience.

Thanks. God bless you, too.
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« Reply #131 on: May 18, 2013, 09:39:26 PM »

In some financial way.  If they were implicated in the stone throwing and the violence, they have to pay.


The parents?  No.  People are responsible for their own actions when they are adults.  If they were not adults, the parents are only responsible when it is proven they were in some way involved in the child doing the wrong action.  If I have a teenage son who is busted for selling drugs, I don’t go to jail unless I put him up to it.  Same thing.

Well, then, if they are grown men, excommunicate them until they repent.  This way, the Church would be clear they will not tolerate anyone who in walking with the priests and bishops in the protests become violent.

This has nothing to do with what I addressed and has nothing to do with us.  We do not dictate Church policy.  I leave that to those in proper position.

But if they're silent, then they are responsible for their actions based on their silence.

No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  Silence does not always equal apathy.  And as someone has already pointed out, we don’t have the full story.  What is the background/history?  What events lead up to this?  Are the clips of footage we are able to see ALL of the video or is there something important we are missing?  We don’t have all the answers which is why I stated previously if the protestors initiated the violence they are wrong.

We also are all very well aware of mob mentality.  When a few get stupid, others who are emotionally charged follow their lead.  Most likely, there was only a small percentage of violent protestors.  This does not make it right, but without all of the information, we only guess.  

This is a single isolated event.  If Orthodox Christians the world over were attacking people, it would be different, but they are not.

This has nothing to do with what I addressed and has nothing to do with us.  We do not dictate Church policy.

But if they're silent, then they are responsible for their actions based on their silence.

No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  
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« Reply #132 on: May 18, 2013, 09:45:21 PM »

Quote
The parents?  No.  People are responsible for their own actions when they are adults.  If they were not adults, the parents are only responsible when it is proven they were in some way involved in the child doing the wrong action.  If I have a teenage son who is busted for selling drugs, I don’t go to jail unless I put him up to it.  Same thing.

I said if it's been shown the priests were implicit in this, then yes, they should provide.

Quote
This has nothing to do with what I addressed and has nothing to do with us.  We do not dictate Church policy.  I leave that to those in proper position.

I disagree.  It has everything to do with what you addressed.  If they are grown men, which I doubt by the way they act and what they said, then the Church should be quick to carry the big stick.  In fact, according to the articles here, many of the protesters have said they were inspired by Patriarch Ilia to go and protest.  Already, his name is invoked in the violence.  If Patriarch Ilia is silent, how does this make him look like?

Grown men wouldn't hide behind the patriarch's name in their violent actions.  Grown men would take responsibility for their own actions.  Because they do this in the name of their Church and their culture, the Church must act.


And let's not ignore this because it's an isolated incident.  What makes us different and responsible Christians is that we should be quick to condemn even isolated incidents. 
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« Reply #133 on: May 18, 2013, 09:57:57 PM »


I said if it's been shown the priests were implicit in this, then yes, they should provide.
 

I misunderstood.  If the priests promoted violence, this would be a problem, depending on the full story.

I disagree.  It has everything to do with what you addressed.  If they are grown men, which I doubt by the way they act and what they said, then the Church should be quick to carry the big stick.  In fact, according to the articles here, many of the protesters have said they were inspired by Patriarch Ilia to go and protest.  Already, his name is invoked in the violence.  If Patriarch Ilia is silent, how does this make him look like?
 

Of course they were inspired to protest, but this does not mean they were asked to hurt anyone.  I doubt his name invokes violence.  More likely people who were predisposed to be violent used this as an excuse.  He should make a statement of some sort, but I think we should give him a little more time to prepare the proper statement.  After all, whatever he says will be scrutinized.  I imagine he is already working on a response.

Grown men wouldn't hide behind the patriarch's name in their violent actions.  Grown men would take responsibility for their own actions.  Because they do this in the name of their Church and their culture, the Church must act.
 

Sure they do.  History proves different.  No one wants to be responsible for their own actions any longer.  Again, I do not know the complete history regarding this situation so I can’t get into that much detail.  What would you like to see as the Church’s response?

And let's not ignore this because it's an isolated incident.  What makes us different and responsible Christians is that we should be quick to condemn even isolated incidents. 

I didn’t say we shouldn’t.  My point was this is not the norm so over reacting is as bad as not reacting. 


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« Reply #134 on: May 18, 2013, 10:25:12 PM »


I said if it's been shown the priests were implicit in this, then yes, they should provide.
 

I misunderstood.  If the priests promoted violence, this would be a problem, depending on the full story.

I disagree.  It has everything to do with what you addressed.  If they are grown men, which I doubt by the way they act and what they said, then the Church should be quick to carry the big stick.  In fact, according to the articles here, many of the protesters have said they were inspired by Patriarch Ilia to go and protest.  Already, his name is invoked in the violence.  If Patriarch Ilia is silent, how does this make him look like?
 

Of course they were inspired to protest, but this does not mean they were asked to hurt anyone.  I doubt his name invokes violence.  More likely people who were predisposed to be violent used this as an excuse.  He should make a statement of some sort, but I think we should give him a little more time to prepare the proper statement.  After all, whatever he says will be scrutinized.  I imagine he is already working on a response.

Grown men wouldn't hide behind the patriarch's name in their violent actions.  Grown men would take responsibility for their own actions.  Because they do this in the name of their Church and their culture, the Church must act.
 

Sure they do.  History proves different.  No one wants to be responsible for their own actions any longer.  Again, I do not know the complete history regarding this situation so I can’t get into that much detail.  What would you like to see as the Church’s response?

And let's not ignore this because it's an isolated incident.  What makes us different and responsible Christians is that we should be quick to condemn even isolated incidents. 

I didn’t say we shouldn’t.  My point was this is not the norm so over reacting is as bad as not reacting. 




Fair enough...

If this is the first time violent protests took place after invoking the good name of the patriarch, the Church can perhaps issue a warning that anyone who would do this again would be excommunicated. Any priest who participated in the violence should be deposed.  These reports of carrying nettles by the priests sends a bad message to the protesters, and it's inexcusable.

The church can continue to make clear that homosexuality is unacceptable, against church morals and Georgian values and culture. The Church should also reiterate its stand to excommunicate anyone who thinks homosexuality is acceptable and moral behavior. But the violent reactions of Orthodox Christians go against the commission of the gospel to spread peace, and wherever peace is rejected, let it return to you. Where Christians incite violence and not peace is inexcusable. The church should encourage that those responsible for the damage of properties and injuries of people should take responsibility and recompensate for them.  Only then would it be acceptable for proper penance to bring back communicants to the Church.

I think this message would serve the Church well and fairly.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 10:25:54 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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