Author Topic: Patriarch Ilia II calls for ban on "gay rights march" "Gay-Rights Rally"  (Read 8748 times)

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Offline Gunnarr

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Some articles:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130516/georgian-orthodox-church-calls-gay-rally-ban

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=26062

http://www.rferl.org/content/georgia-patriarch-gay-rights/24988151.html

He issued a statement about the issue, but I cannot find the original. But here are some excerpts from the statement taken from those articles, perhaps it is all of them. but I hope the statement by the patriarch is not copyright...:

“As it is known a rally of sexual minorities and their supporters is planned on the Rustaveli Avenue on May 17, which aims not at resolving real problems of these people, but at speculating by this issue, because it is the fact that despite of traditions and way of thinking that is established in our country, they [sexual minorities] can live their private life without restrictions,”

“It is also the fact that there are universal values, which are common across time and space – moral laws are among them. All the religions and scientific approaches (psychology and medicine) consider homosexuality to be anomaly and disease (of course we do not mean here newly created pseudo scientific views). The Church considers people with such inclinations to be in a grave sin, which need help and spiritual assistance as a remedy for correction, instead of encouragement and especially imposing their condition on population,”

“That would be similar to liking actions of a drug addict and making public display of drug addiction. Our people have different aspirations and for that reason it is understandable their sharp protest against this [planned May 17] and similar rallies.”

“Our citizens view [such rallies] as a violation of majority’s right and as an insult to their traditions, religion and in general to way of thinking,”

“We believe that the Tbilisi Mayor’s Office and the authorities should take into consideration these [factors] and revoke permission given to homosexuals for holding the rally, especially now when there is a nationwide mourning for fallen brave men [reference to three Georgian soldiers killed in Afghanistan]"
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Offline Gunnarr

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here is another article that just came up:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/16/georgias-orthodox-church-urges-ban-on-lgbt-rights-rally/

with lots of angry comments on the backwards conservative orthodox church hypocrits (just a paraphrase... not my words)
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Offline Gunnarr

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/
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Offline Alpo

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

Offline mike

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+1

Offline LizaSymonenko

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They should have protested peacefully.
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Offline mike

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They should have protested peacefully.


Welcome to real world. This is how Orthodox protest against "sins".

Offline podkarpatska

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+1

+2. Kind of relates to the "tolerance" thread elsewhere and defining "tolerance." That surely wasn't it.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Why are you always so adamant to plop everyone in to one basket?

All Americans do this....

All Orthodox do that....

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Offline Gunnarr

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The American Orthodox are much more enlightened than the backwards Georgian Orthodox
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Offline mike

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Same in Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc.

Offline Tommelomsky

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Why are you always so adamant to plop everyone in to one basket?

All Americans do this....

All Orthodox do that....



I wonder about the same thing.
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Offline Tommelomsky

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+3.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:11:40 PM by Tommelomsky »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Same in Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc.

Really?  I hadn't heard about it.

Even so....they don't constitute ALL of Orthodoxy.

Do you act this way?  Because if ALL of Orthodoxy does, and you say you are Orthodox, than you must behave like this, as well.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Do any of you believe that such protesters should be excommunicated unless they repent?

including the priests which also were in the protest

or if not, then is it not that bad then? how bad is it?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:20:19 PM by Gunnarr »
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Offline podkarpatska

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Same in Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc.

Really?  I hadn't heard about it.

Even so....they don't constitute ALL of Orthodoxy.

Do you act this way?  Because if ALL of Orthodoxy does, and you say you are Orthodox, than you must behave like this, as well.


I think the type of hooliganism exhibited is more common in the countries Michal referenced than we see, or would tolerate, in the US. I don't want to believe it is any more a reflection of Orthodoxy than say Westboro is a reflection of American Baptists.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.
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Offline Tommelomsky

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Do any of you believe that such protesters should be excommunicated unless they repent?

including the priests which also were in the protest

or if not, then is it not that bad then? how bad is it?

Confession, repentance, almsgivings, prayer and spend some time to think about how you do things, why you do them and how you can improve spiritualitywise and as as witness of Christ.

addition: that is if they were involved violently.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:32:46 PM by Tommelomsky »
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Offline minasoliman

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I would agree not "ALL" Orthodox act this way.  But I would say it's been common among places where Orthodoxy controls the government, or at least state-sponsored.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.

While I understand your unwillingness to believe that some priests and people could behave this way, it is not unprecedented. I remember an anti Jewish near riot in Georgia or Moldova two years ago as an example. Comparing what is clear  from the videos and pictures in Tbilisi to the American March for Life is really is an unintentional affront to the peaceful, prayeroful folks and clergy who attend the March each January in Washington.

Offline mike

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.

Some priests or bishops bless such people or help them organise.

Offline Gunnarr

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.

I could not find any violent priests, I only saw them marching. But they clearly were also marching along with everyone else to break the police lines
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Offline Shanghaiski

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I would agree not "ALL" Orthodox act this way.  But I would say it's been common among places where Orthodoxy controls the government, or at least state-sponsored.

There's always going to be hooliganism. People who have not taken the Gospel to heart will not act according to the Gospel. They are usually a very small minority and are not blessed by the hierarchy. Take the Bosnian Civil War. Patriarch Pavle of blessed memory excommunicated those responsible for war crimes and atrocities. Still, people used the cover of the Church for committing crimes. That is a blot for them, not the Church.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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It appears, in this case, the Georgian government and Church are at odds, unlike with the same case in Russia.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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They should have protested peacefully.


Welcome to real world. This is how Orthodox protest against "sins".

You're Orthodox, right?  Why do you protest against sins like that?  Or do you admit to over-generalizing?
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+1

+2. Kind of relates to the "tolerance" thread elsewhere and defining "tolerance." That surely wasn't it.

A display of the opposite end of the spectrum.
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Offline Strongylocentrotus

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I think that clerical violence has a long history in the Orthodox Church, just as in other churches.  Some may even call it an honorable tradition given the pious mythology that surrounds some of the church councils, like St. Nicolas punching Arius in nose during the first one. The emperor had to send in his "marines" to restore order.  Alexandria in particular was noted for the violent nature of her clerics and particularly her monks.  Remember the pagan philosopher Hypatia was shredded there by demented monastics.  The Patriarch Theophilus incited the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391.  Dear old St. Athanasius was a serial inciter of violence during his many intervals of restoration and exile  In the twentieth century orthodox clerics were instrumental in inciting progroms against Jews in Holy Russia and in  Romania,  Orthodox clerics were also active in the Black Hundreds and the Iron Guard.  Even today in Russia there are many clerics active in nationalist organizations that espouse violent rhetoric against various perceived enemies of Russia.  Finally, just a few years ago monks on the Holy Mountain were attacking each other with crowbars and sledgehammers, so yes, there is nothing unduly odd about monks and clerics running amok in Tbilisi.  What little I've managed to unearth about contemporary Georgia, it seems to be that certain nationalistic elements in Orthodox Georgia feel anxeity about both the "westernization" of Georgia and about their government's increasing tolerance of muslim and other refugees into Georgia, particularly Iranian expats.  Either way, in my humble opinion, the attitude of their patriarch says in all.  As has been observed, a fish rots from the head.
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Offline Punch

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Gee, given the above reply, it would seem that the Georgian protesters were more Orthodox than the bleeding hearts on this forum, or at least more in tune with the Tradition of the Church.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Strongylocentrotus

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Bless our "bleeding hearts", they are calling us to honor the better angels of our nature.  The Georgian reaction is atavistic and not sustainable in the long run.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Not sustainable in what sense?

That perhaps immoral behavior will be widely accepted there, like it is elsewhere?

I may not condone the violent methods, but I can understand the people's desire to preserve their nation and uphold moral, and dare I say Orthodox, morals and ethics in their country.


« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:53:45 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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"The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you."

That perhaps immoral behavior will be widely accepted there
Yes, because that is the greatest moral issue they're facing; gay people being openly gay.

Not the fact that their church has so much sickness that there is a violent protest.

You don't have to be Christian to protest against gays. Any pagan family worshiper can do that. Should we set up idols to Vesta?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:04:40 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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I never said it was their only issue.

From their recent history, I would wager they have a number of issues they are dealing with.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Maria

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Not sustainable in what sense?

That perhaps immoral behavior will be widely accepted there, like it is elsewhere?

I may not condone the violent methods, but I can understand the people's desire to preserve their nation and uphold moral, and dare I say Orthodox, morals and ethics in their country.




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Offline NicholasMyra

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From their recent history, I would wager they have a number of issues they are dealing with.
Wouldn't working mercy convert more than such protests?

Some day, whoever happens to be lording over that patch of dead earth will have to offer the nation's works to Christ.

You really want anti-gay protests to be part of that work?

There must be a better way.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:10:27 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Strongylocentrotus

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I never said it was their only issue.

From their recent history, I would wager they have a number of issues they are dealing with.



No kidding?  This ain't about morality, that is just the excuse used to turn out the thugs.  Beating up on gays is just some opposition faction in Georgia flexing their political chops against the government currently in power.  The only question is whether it was with the active connivance of Church or not.
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Offline Romaios

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Patriarch Ilia is very close to his people and he is very much revered. IIRC the Georgian Church was the first to pull out of the World Council of Churches and cut back on ecumenism - a very popular decision with the faithful. If the current government doesn't play this whole thing carefully, many Georgians might soon want to return to the arms of Mother Russia and leave the "corrupt West" to its fate.

Their president, however, would stupidly brag with his American allies and spit in the face of Russia. Ours was just as brave & wise.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 03:01:03 AM by Romaios »

Offline Alpo

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Offline Romaios

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

Offline Alpo

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

Offline Romaios

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Offline Kerdy

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They should have protested peacefully.


Welcome to real world. This is how Orthodox protest against "sins".

No, it isn't.  Your "real world" doesn't exist.  You sure have a low opinion of Orthodox Christians who don't cater to your sensibilities.  Funny how everyone attacks Christians for this, yet remain silent when others employ the very same tactics.  Violent protest is disgusting, but it isn’t the only thing…

Offline Alpo

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:30:19 AM by Alpo »

Offline Romaios

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What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:38:17 AM by Romaios »

Offline Alpo

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What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.

No. Violence against minorities is never right even if we happen to disagree with said minorities.

Offline Kerdy

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I love how they are titled anti-gay rather than pro-Christian (Orthodox).  It looks to me as if the priests are trying to get out of the way.

While I absolutely do not condone violent protests and the injury of people for no reason, we must be sensible and understand at some point people are either going to give in, as many here have done, or resist.  The opposition knows this all too well and will push with all its might to either get us to stop the good fight or fight back.  If we give in, they demand more.  If we resist, they point fingers and say stupid things like calling us intolerant or homophobic or some other nonsensical term.  They know this will happen and in the off chance it doesn’t, they make up some sort of lie to make people think it did.  If the government there knew it was dangerous, they should not have let it take place. 

Now on to the protestors.  If they initiated violence, they are wrong. 

Offline Kerdy

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What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.

No. Violence against minorities is never right even if we happen to disagree with said minorities.

It has nothing to do with being in a minority status.

Offline Kerdy

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Same thing in America.

Offline Romaios

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No. Violence against minorities is never right even if we happen to disagree with said minorities.

I agree. That is exactly why the Georgian authorities should have thought twice before authorizing the gay parade.  

Offline mike

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There's always going to be hooliganism. People who have not taken the Gospel to heart will not act according to the Gospel. They are usually a very small minority and are not blessed by the hierarchy.

Wouldn't say they are small. And they are blessed sometimes:
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/world-news/detail/articolo/russia-rusia-putin-19522/
http://www.businessinsider.com/golden-dawn-and-the-greek-orthodox-church-2012-10

You're Orthodox, right?  Why do you protest against sins like that?  Or do you admit to over-generalizing?

I do not protest. And I am not overgeneralizing since all anti-gay protests by patriotic Orthodox youth end up like that.

I may not condone the violent methods, but I can understand the people's desire to preserve their nation and uphold moral, and dare I say Orthodox, morals and ethics in their country.

Is fighting with the police or throwing rocks at gay parades a part of "Orthodox morals and ethics"? I do not want to be a part of it.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

He doesn't bring any of his mistresses, though.

No, it isn't.  Your "real world" doesn't exist.  You sure have a low opinion of Orthodox Christians who don't cater to your sensibilities.  Funny how everyone attacks Christians for this, yet remain silent when others employ the very same tactics.  Violent protest is disgusting, but it isn’t the only thing…

High time you left your convert kindergarten. If you dream about society with traditional Orthodox values, that' how it looks like.

It has nothing to do with being in a minority status.

It is. They were not protesting against eg. sex-selective abortion that is very popular there.

Offline Tommelomsky

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I understand why they protested, but it is sad if violence was used to make it be an effective rally.
As it is an issue that should be protested against.
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Offline Kerdy

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There's always going to be hooliganism. People who have not taken the Gospel to heart will not act according to the Gospel. They are usually a very small minority and are not blessed by the hierarchy.

Wouldn't say they are small. And they are blessed sometimes:
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/world-news/detail/articolo/russia-rusia-putin-19522/
http://www.businessinsider.com/golden-dawn-and-the-greek-orthodox-church-2012-10

You're Orthodox, right?  Why do you protest against sins like that?  Or do you admit to over-generalizing?

I do not protest. And I am not overgeneralizing since all anti-gay protests by patriotic Orthodox youth end up like that.

I may not condone the violent methods, but I can understand the people's desire to preserve their nation and uphold moral, and dare I say Orthodox, morals and ethics in their country.

Is fighting with the police or throwing rocks at gay parades a part of "Orthodox morals and ethics"? I do not want to be a part of it.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

He doesn't bring any of his mistresses, though.

No, it isn't.  Your "real world" doesn't exist.  You sure have a low opinion of Orthodox Christians who don't cater to your sensibilities.  Funny how everyone attacks Christians for this, yet remain silent when others employ the very same tactics.  Violent protest is disgusting, but it isn’t the only thing…

High time you left your convert kindergarten. If you dream about society with traditional Orthodox values, that' how it looks like.

It has nothing to do with being in a minority status.

It is. They were not protesting against eg. sex-selective abortion that is very popular there.
Kindergarten?  As if you have any room to say such things. And apparently it isn't what you say or everyone would be in agreement.  Think a little harder no matter how difficult it may be.  If your "vast" experience in Orthodoxy is so spot on, why are your statements so often in conflict with those who have been Orthodox longer.   Be careful, your bias is showing.

The last portion of your post is irrelevant, as seems to be the norm for you as of late.

Offline Kerdy

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I understand why they protested, but it is sad if violence was used to make it be an effective rally.
As it is an issue that should be protested against.
Agreed.  Violence is always a last option if at all possible and Christians the world over should be opposing such nonsense and sins rather than embrace them and make excuses for their exceptance.  I long for the time when Christians will stand for Christ without fear, with boldness.

Offline podkarpatska

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

Offline podkarpatska

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Offline mike

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Why so surprised?

:(Watched the news on RT today and witnessed the violent and unedifying blockading of a so-called 'Gay Pride' parade. The news strip running below the news pictures had 'Christians block Gay Pride march'. The newsreader spoke of protestors lead by Orthodox Christian priests. What I saw extremely violent attacks on vehicles presumably trying to get the Pride marchers away in a minibus with broken windows and a screaming mob trying to knock seven barrels of .... out of whatever they could lay their fists on.

I have seen 'Gay Pride' marches before and found the over the top behaviour and outfits difficult to stomach, but this protest would best described as deeply shameful and mob violence rather than a protest by Christians.

Church Militant didn't even begin to describe it.

Offline podkarpatska

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/

Offline Kerdy

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Why so surprised?

:(Watched the news on RT today and witnessed the violent and unedifying blockading of a so-called 'Gay Pride' parade. The news strip running below the news pictures had 'Christians block Gay Pride march'. The newsreader spoke of protestors lead by Orthodox Christian priests. What I saw extremely violent attacks on vehicles presumably trying to get the Pride marchers away in a minibus with broken windows and a screaming mob trying to knock seven barrels of .... out of whatever they could lay their fists on.

I have seen 'Gay Pride' marches before and found the over the top behaviour and outfits difficult to stomach, but this protest would best described as deeply shameful and mob violence rather than a protest by Christians.

Church Militant didn't even begin to describe it.

You mean, they act just like the Orthodox Christians in Egypt and Syria (and other places where they are killed indiscriminately) who do this sort of thing? ::)  Seriously, Michael, pay attention and stop making obtuse statements.

Offline minasoliman

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:36:54 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Romaios

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

The fact is that many Orthodox in Eastern Europe/the former Soviet countries tend to be increasingly anti-American. That doesn't automatically make them pro-Russian, but they feel - for instance - that gay people have enough rights as it is in their countries. Foreign support of gay activism or attempts to "liberate" such allegedly oppressed minorities are perceived as an infringement of their own cultural and religious values and even their national autonomy. The indigenous political class is perceived as too weak to stand up for these and too docile to their Western political and economical allies (i.e. "masters").
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:39:43 AM by Romaios »

Offline Shanghaiski

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Pagan ancient Greece and Rome would be horrified by much of what happens publicly in the West.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Okay, show me where the angry, violent mob is. Where is the Catholicos Patriarch urging people to beat up gays? For God's sake...
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Offline Shanghaiski

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What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.

No. Violence against minorities is never right even if we happen to disagree with said minorities.

Come forth and denounce those who bless violence. Come, show the proof. Or just ignore the vast majority who aren't violent, who just do not want immorality to be treated as normal, who do not want naked people dancing in the streets for all to see.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Ahem, the Jim Crow laws were a Yankee import. There was not segregation as such during slavery.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/

Enligtenment, lol. His Eminence needs to read more Western history.
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Offline podkarpatska

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

The fact is that many Orthodox in Eastern Europe/the former Soviet countries tend to be increasingly anti-American. That doesn't automatically make them pro-Russian, but they feel - for instance - that gay people have enough rights as it is in their countries. Foreign support of gay activism or attempts to "liberate" such allegedly oppressed minorities are perceived as an infringement of their own cultural and religious values and even their national autonomy. The indigenous political class is perceived as too weak to stand up for these and too docile to their Western political and economical allies (i.e. "masters").

I agree and understand. Americans (myself included), left and center, are often culturally arrogant and commonly view the rest of the world in stark black and white, rather than shades of gray, based on their own point of view. We can't escape from our being taught "American exceptionalism" any more than a Russian or Georgian is shaped by their own versions of nationalist myopia.


Offline Shanghaiski

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.
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Offline podkarpatska

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Ahem, the Jim Crow laws were a Yankee import. There was not segregation as such during slavery.

Revisionist.

Offline mike

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You mean, they act just like the Orthodox Christians in Egypt and Syria (and other places where they are killed indiscriminately) who do this sort of thing? ::)  Seriously, Michael, pay attention and stop making obtuse statements.

I've never heard of Copts making pogroms.

Okay, show me where the angry, violent mob is.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_f4lMuAhORU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

(in the 2nd one there are gays being evacuated by the police. Orthodox activists say them 'goodbye')

Come forth and denounce those who bless violence. Come, show the proof.

I've already posted a link about Russian Church organising paramilitary militia.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 10:19:06 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline podkarpatska

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I understand the militancy of faith, but I must have missed the part of Christ's teaching about taking sticks rocks and rioting. That must come after the stuff about seventy time seven is exhausted.  

But for the despised Enlightenment we all would be serfs anyway, if I existed I would still be a Greek Catholic cutting timber in the Tatras and North America would either still be under the British Crown or be a collection of separate nations,feuding some successful and some not like South America. Oh yeah, the Pope and the Papal States would have nukes.....

Offline Shanghaiski

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Ahem, the Jim Crow laws were a Yankee import. There was not segregation as such during slavery.

Revisionist.

LOL. Revisionist history often corrects blatant errors. Or would you just accept Gibbon's take on the Eastern Romans?
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Non sequitur. Gibbons was wrong, therefore Jim Crow was sustained into the late 20th century by the descendants of the carpetbagging Yankees. Right....

Offline augustin717

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I'm no big fan of identity politics. That said here the problems is that many Georgian citizens do not understand that that not all Georgian citizens will publicly  congregate  to carry icons and banned and crosses. Some will for wine festivals, other to protest the govt others for gay parades others for bovine expositions etc. assuming the Georgian laws guaranteed freedom to assemble peacefully. And I think it does. The Romanian hierarchy probably no less homophobic is still more cautious with language at least. Maybe the consequence of milking some EU funds. I think they no longer issue protests on every occasion 20 gays congregate. But then again rampant violent homophobia is itself most likely gay. You know probably people that are told personally or just get the general message that they would carry their cross and shut up. Happy content heterosexuals don't foam at the mouth at the sight of homosexuals.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Non sequitur. Gibbons was wrong, therefore Jim Crow was sustained into the late 20th century by the descendants of the carpetbagging Yankees. Right....

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Offline Punch

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High time you left your convert kindergarten. If you dream about society with traditional Orthodox values, that' how it looks like.



Wise words from our saintly Polish boy.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Romaios

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I'm no big fan of identity politics. That said here the problems is that many Georgian citizens do not understand that that not all Georgian citizens will publicly  congregate  to carry icons and banned and crosses. Some will for wine festivals, other to protest the govt others for gay parades others for bovine expositions etc. assuming the Georgian laws guaranteed freedom to assemble peacefully. And I think it does.

So they need to be "educated" that a gay parade is no different from a bovine exposition.  ;D

But then again rampant violent homophobia is itself most likely gay. You know probably people that are told personally or just get the general message that they would carry their cross and shut up. Happy content heterosexuals don't foam at the mouth at the sight of homosexuals.

That's it - all those Georgians are crypto-homosexuals jealous of their liberated counterparts. ::)

Offline Punch

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

Yes, the true ecumenist comes out.  "Multi-religious" as a virtue.  Thank God for Putin and his "purported" Orthodoxy.  At least he pretends, unlike many on this forum.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Non sequitur. Gibbons was wrong, therefore Jim Crow was sustained into the late 20th century by the descendants of the carpetbagging Yankees. Right....

You misunderstood me. When I said Yankee import, I meant that the laws were used first in the North, then imported in the South. Then, later, the laws were slowly changed in the North, but remained in the South.
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Offline 88Devin12

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At least they have the guts to stand up against "gay rights" rallies. I spent 5 years at a liberal university where I had to put up with such propaganda. I personally have several good friends who have homosexual attractions to other men. However, just because I love them and they are my friends doesn't mean I will ever approve of their decisions. I'm obviously against gay marriage, but not necessarily against remodeling our civil "marriage" system to be civil unions. As has been said elsewhere, while we don't agree with homosexual relationships, the issue with "marriage" in the civil society, is that if they need access to their partner in the hospital, or their partner wishes them to have the rights of a family member, why should we stop them? Our disagreement is over their sexual relationship, not over civil rights.

It is right to stand against the promotion of sexual immorality. What isn't right is doing so with violence. I'm not a big fan of unbridled free speech, so I don't have a problem with Russia, Georgia or other nations suppressing such rallies. My problem is with the Orthodox who react with violence against the gay community.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:42:36 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline minasoliman

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

As opposed to silence and looking as if Orthodoxy endorses such behavior?  Might as well allow the Muslims to sing in honor of the terrorist Christians to expose our alleged hypocrisy.   The Egyptian Muslim author did so with his novel "Azazel" to show that St. Cyril was a terrorist leader that lead the killing of Hypatia, despite research not able to prove it.  Nevertheless, it makes a juicy opportunity for the non-Christians.  So why shouldn't we be strong in our condemnations of these so-called "Orthodox Christians"?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:45:14 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline augustin717

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At least they have the guts to stand up against "gay rights" rallies. I spent 5 years at a liberal university where I had to put up with such propaganda. I personally have several good friends who have homosexual attractions to other men. However, just because I love them and they are my friends doesn't mean I will ever approve of their decisions. I'm obviously against gay marriage, but not necessarily against remodeling our civil "marriage" system to be civil unions. As has been said elsewhere, while we don't agree with homosexual relationships, the issue with "marriage" in the civil society, is that if they need access to their partner in the hospital, or their partner wishes them to have the rights of a family member, why should we stop them? Our disagreement is over their sexual relationship, not over civil rights.

It is right to stand against the promotion of sexual immorality. What isn't right is doing so with violence. I'm not a big fan of unbridled free speech, so I don't have a problem with Russia, Georgia or other nations suppressing such rallies. My problem is with the Orthodox who react with violence against the gay community.
you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:47:07 AM by augustin717 »

Offline 88Devin12

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

Offline minasoliman

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline 88Devin12

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I'll play ialmisry for a second here:



Nations and their limitations on gay marriage in Europe, dark blue allows same-sex marriages, blue allows other types of partnerships, light blue allows cohabitation, grey doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, red limits marriage to heterosexual couples.



This shows European nations and belief in God. Lighter indicates higher rates of atheism, darker indicates higher belief in God.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:53:26 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline 88Devin12

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

Offline augustin717

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.
the mayor of Moscow is, I assume, a puppet of Putin's . So he wouldn't do a thing against    his wishes. so, no guts there. I don't know in what terms patriarch Ilia is to the Georgian political establishment. it might be  the Church flexing their muscles at a gay parade. Possible.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:57:04 AM by augustin717 »

Offline minasoliman

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

They have the safe haven of their own country.  The world may say whatever they want.  If that's the case, Saudi Arabia has big cahonays (sp?) for continuing to make it illegal for women to drive.  That's not guts.  It's guts if all of a sudden the country is controlled by the world.  The Muslim Brotherhood has guts for attacking the Coptic cathedral.  Ya...sounds like guts.  The world decries, and the country doesn't change.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:57:07 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline 88Devin12

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.
the mayor of Moscow is, I assume, a puppet of Putin's . So he wouldn't do a thing against    his wishes. so, no guts there. I don't know in what terms patriarch Ilia is to the Georgian political establishment. it might be  the Church flexing its muscles at a gay parade. Possible.

Nothing wrong with Putin... He may not be the most "diplomatic" leader, but he is the strongest leader the world has seen in years, and at least he stands for what is right, even if he doesn't always do things in a "democratic" manner.

The last strong leader Russia had was Stalin, and Putin is a heck of a lot better than him. The only "contemporary" leader we have had that could compare would have been Roosevelt. It's too bad we can't have strong leaders anymore, the longest anyone can actually hold power is 8 years and that isn't enough time to really establish a strong rule and lasting changes.

(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:00:25 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline minasoliman

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(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:02:29 PM by minasoliman »
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(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

In my opinion, Putin is a strong leader, but in many ways is also a good leader, because he has helped get Russia off its backside and towards recovery. Despite the wide variety of problems in post-Soviet Russia, the nation definitely has already recovered well.

And just FYI, silencing political opponents isn't necessarily a big deal. Keep in mind that you are talking to a monarchist. If Putin uses his power to silence the communists in Russia, then all power to him. If he also wants to silence those who want Russia to become like Western Europe, then I'm all for silencing them. (I don't mean by killing)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:08:10 PM by 88Devin12 »

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

As opposed to silence and looking as if Orthodoxy endorses such behavior?  Might as well allow the Muslims to sing in honor of the terrorist Christians to expose our alleged hypocrisy.   The Egyptian Muslim author did so with his novel "Azazel" to show that St. Cyril was a terrorist leader that lead the killing of Hypatia, despite research not able to prove it.  Nevertheless, it makes a juicy opportunity for the non-Christians.  So why shouldn't we be strong in our condemnations of these so-called "Orthodox Christians"?

I condemn the violence as well as the support for sexual immorality. The ideology of the latter, however, is provocative. As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.
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Offline minasoliman

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(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/
Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel.  Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

As opposed to silence and looking as if Orthodoxy endorses such behavior?  Might as well allow the Muslims to sing in honor of the terrorist Christians to expose our alleged hypocrisy.   The Egyptian Muslim author did so with his novel "Azazel" to show that St. Cyril was a terrorist leader that lead the killing of Hypatia, despite research not able to prove it.  Nevertheless, it makes a juicy opportunity for the non-Christians.  So why shouldn't we be strong in our condemnations of these so-called "Orthodox Christians"?

I condemn the violence as well as the support for sexual immorality. The ideology of the latter, however, is provocative. As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.

Then I'd like to see them come out and condemn the violence that happened.  I'd like to see some of those priests provide for the well-being of those injured and killed.  A father may have not told his son to go and throw stones, but when a son goes and throws stones, the father is still responsible.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline Shanghaiski

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
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Offline minasoliman

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

They have the safe haven of their own country.  The world may say whatever they want.  If that's the case, Saudi Arabia has big cahonays (sp?) for continuing to make it illegal for women to drive.  That's not guts.  It's guts if all of a sudden the country is controlled by the world.  The Muslim Brotherhood has guts for attacking the Coptic cathedral.  Ya...sounds like guts.  The world decries, and the country doesn't change.

Why use Mohammedans as a point of reference for anything?
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Offline 88Devin12

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.

Georgia has proven to be almost a puppet of Western Europe and the United States, so implications that his holiness Patriarch Ilia is a puppet of Georgia is laughable.

Offline minasoliman

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

They have the safe haven of their own country.  The world may say whatever they want.  If that's the case, Saudi Arabia has big cahonays (sp?) for continuing to make it illegal for women to drive.  That's not guts.  It's guts if all of a sudden the country is controlled by the world.  The Muslim Brotherhood has guts for attacking the Coptic cathedral.  Ya...sounds like guts.  The world decries, and the country doesn't change.

Why use Mohammedans as a point of reference for anything?
Because when someone says that someone in a remote country has guts against the world opinion, then by consistency, even they have guts.
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(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.

I'm not talking about strong in terms of faith. If you want to talk about leaders strong in faith, we can talk about St. Justinian, St. Sava and his father St. Stefan, St. Vladimir the Great and others.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:14:04 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Shanghaiski

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
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Offline minasoliman

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(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.

I'm not talking about strong in terms of faith. If you want to talk about leaders strong in faith, we can talk about St. Justinian, St. Sava and his father St. Stefan, St. Vladimir the Great and others.

Memories of these men live on as inspirations, while the memories of Stalin and Hitler will live on as damnworthy.  If only making long-lasting memories gives someone strength, then the saints as much as the tyrants are equally strong.  I make no distinction, even on a moral level, let alone spiritual.  Tyrants withered away time and again, which only proves their inherent weaknesses, not strengths.
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Offline augustin717

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.

Offline minasoliman

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.

I'm not saying you shouldn't stand against sins.  But with what happened, with the videos shown, the Church should take a stand against this violence.  They can balance it with condemnation of homosexuality, but perhaps there should be a way to change their approach to protests, so that things like this won't happen again.  Otherwise, you actually are doing exactly what the opposition wants, that is to make them look like martyrs.  It's the glory and driving force of a movement.

Why are you bringing up the story of St. Nicholas?  Why the double talk?  First you say we can't verify that this is Church-sponsored violence and now you're bringing up the story that makes it look like the Church-sponsored violence can be justified.  Perhaps we should dogmatize the story and make it canonical for bishops to go and punch heretics and sinners.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:25:32 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline 88Devin12

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(also, just fyi, I don't mean strong as in good or moral)

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

Hitler and Stalin are weak leaders to me.  In their insecurities, they killed the masses so that they give an illusion of strength.

My spiritual father taught me a lesson.  Which is stronger?  To hate your enemies, or to love them?  Then you'll know, "leaders" like Hitler and Stalin were the weakest.

I'm not talking about strong in terms of faith. If you want to talk about leaders strong in faith, we can talk about St. Justinian, St. Sava and his father St. Stefan, St. Vladimir the Great and others.

Memories of these men live on as inspirations, while the memories of Stalin and Hitler will live on as damnworthy.  If only making long-lasting memories gives someone strength, then the saints as much as the tyrants are equally strong.  I make no distinction, even on a moral level, let alone spiritual.  Tyrants withered away time and again, which only proves their inherent weaknesses, not strengths.

Ever hear of Genghis Khan or Kublai Khan? They committed what is equivalent in modern days to genocide, yet they aren't remembered as damnworthy leaders. What Stalin & Hitler did was absolutely terrible, but longer-term history has a tendency to change perspectives of leaders many years after.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Eh, history depends on the historian. The Mongols like Genghis Khan. The Greeks like Alexander the Great. The Arabs, not so much for both.

Not that anyone here would probably agree, but Hitler and Stalin are really very different leaders. Hitler was motivated by ideology so much that it blinded him. Stalin was not so motivated, I don't think. His rule suggests a certain amount of pragmatism. (Interestingly, after Hitler's invasion of the USSR, Stalin's officers visited him at his dacha. Stalin thought, after hearing the news, that they had come to arrest him. Instead, they had come to ask what his orders were.)
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Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.
But we're talking about Christians here, not pagans.
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Offline Romaios

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Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.
But we're talking about Christians here, not pagans.

Are we? I wouldn't bet on it. Most people in our countries are nominally Orthodox, but definitely not sympathetic to gay people. If such a protest were to happen here, I'm sure that lots of homophobic thugs would jump at the chance to bash the gay, with or without patriarchal blessing. So the fact that some clergy were involved doesn't mean that the anti-parade was staged to happen like this by the Church. Things were bound to get out of control once the mob was unleashed.   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:23:57 PM by Romaios »

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Fair enough.
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Offline Elpidophoros

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If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Offline minasoliman

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If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Why do you venerate her?  This isn't a rhetorical question, this is an honest one.

Why we venerate people like St. Constantine or St. Augustine?  Or for the previous comment, why St. Nicholas as well?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 02:42:17 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline augustin717

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If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   
Perhaps we've-most of us,at least-evolved somehow since then

tags editted - MK
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 03:54:05 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline ialmisry

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If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Why do you venerate her?  This isn't a rhetorical question, this is an honest one.

Why we venerate people like St. Constantine or St. Augustine?  Or for the previous comment, why St. Nicholas as well?
Because God has glorified them.
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Offline 88Devin12

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If you say, peaceful protest is the current prevailing political correctness,yes I agree;but if you think it's the only "orthodox way",I do not think so.
At least no one was killed in the anti-homosexual riots,but Agia Theodosia the  Konstantinoupolitissa literally KILLED a man(who was just following orders )by her very hands to protest the policy of Leo the Iauros.And the Church canonized her as a Saint.How do you explain this?
   

Why do you venerate her?  This isn't a rhetorical question, this is an honest one.

Why we venerate people like St. Constantine or St. Augustine?

why not? the church has recognized that God has glorified them. The path to heaven is narrow, but that doesn't mean there is only one narrow path. Martyrs being one example, the monastic ascetic life being another, and married ascetic life being another.

I've still been trying to read the Brother's Karamazov. While it is fiction, it still is very reflective of Russian thought and life at the time. In the story, Elder Zosima dies and his body almost immediately starts smelling of corruption, which leads everyone (except his closest friends and the more learned monks) to assume he is in hell. Yet of course, that (the incorruption of a body) is just one sign of his holiness, neither is the "yellow bones" as put forward by other monks in the novel. Many of our Saints' relics are bare bones, including Biblical figures we know are glorified.

Just as in that illustration, there are multiple, narrow paths to heaven. One doesn't just have to be a hermit in the desert of Egypt, the forested mountains of Greece or the tundra of Russia. One can be a soldier who has killed people in warfare, but who is killed by his army for being a Christian. Certainly, many of the Apostles probably didn't experience the light as some later spiritual elders experienced, yet they still attained the kingdom. Look at Dismas as another example, a murderer, a criminal who was justly condemned, but who, at his death, repented to God himself who hung next to him, and was saved.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 02:52:43 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline ialmisry

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Eh, history depends on the historian. The Mongols like Genghis Khan. The Greeks like Alexander the Great. The Arabs, not so much for both.
Actually we, Christian and Muslim, like Alexander a lot.
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Offline ialmisry

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
Why not?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Eh, history depends on the historian. The Mongols like Genghis Khan. The Greeks like Alexander the Great. The Arabs, not so much for both.
Actually we, Christian and Muslim, like Alexander a lot.

Really? Hmmm, then that would mean the BBC was wrong! Oh no!
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Offline Shanghaiski

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
Why not?

Because they need to concentrate on being irrelevant.
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Offline mike

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As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.

Some proofs?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong

You have just gained another one level in lack of conscience.

Offline minasoliman

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Isa, Devin, thank you for the posts, but you did not answer my question.  I did not ask why we should not venerate them.  I asked why are they venerated?  Or better yet, why did God glorify them?

And I'm not saying they shouldn't be venerated.  I'm looking for a different answers for each saint.

Why is Adam, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc. all venerated, all glorified?  Was every part of their existence infallible?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:14:12 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline minasoliman

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I also wanted to see what Elpidiphoros' answer would be as well.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Gunnarr

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You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

The second danger is that. of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church."

http://livingtext.wordpress.com/category/orthodoxy/

Except you leave out everything before, where he talks about how the rise of atheism came about BECAUSE of the enlightenment ideals, causing even the church itself to lose much of its values and become secularized. And, pointing out, even today it is happening in the Russian church especially with the laity who are brought up in such "western" mindsets. ( I would argue it is happening in all the churches) Of course, the blogger you linked to laments there was no reformation in Russia. And points out, after the quote you said claims

 "Perhaps there are movements within Russia that are moving ad fontes back to the Scriptures, but what I see is a reactionary movement that glories in the past and believe in a crystalized version of unchanging doctrine. I believe all this is greatly to the disadvantage of the Russian Church and nation. May God grant them more light and the ability to change where they need to."

Reactionary movement that glories in the past and BELIEVE IN A CRYSTALIZED VERSION OF UNCHANGING DOCTRINE

This brings up a good point, there seems to be many in the Orthodox Church today who are against unchanging doctrine, instead are for changing it! (largely just to fit the mold of the "enlightened" ideals they were taught in secular schools...)



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Offline Orthodox11

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I know some of the hard-line priests who led the counter protest. They're kind and sincere people and their hearts are certainly in the right place, though I don't agree with their methods or some of their opinions.

Patriarch Ilia belongs to a much more moderate trend within the Georgian Church, and anyone who knows him would find the idea that he would be in favour of violent opposition absurd.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 05:13:41 PM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Gunnarr

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Patriarch Ilia belongs to a much more moderate trend within the Georgian Church, and anyone who knows him would find the idea that he would be in favour of violent opposition absurd.

I agree with this assessment. I have heard Patriarch Ilia also condemned the violence, but I cannot find a source. I am not too good at finding any releases from the georgian church.

I also agree with Patriarch Ilia being a moderate, seeing as he left the World Council of "Churches", albiet only because many of the most prestigious monasteries threatened to cease commemoration of him unless he left the organization.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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How do you explain this?

Why is Adam, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc. all venerated, all glorified?  Was every part of their existence infallible?

Those people were set aside for the purposes of God. That's what holy means.

We aren't methodists. Being a saint doesn't mean that person was "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" or whatever.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 05:25:08 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline minasoliman

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How do you explain this?

Why is Adam, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc. all venerated, all glorified?  Was every part of their existence infallible?

Those people were set aside for the purposes of God. That's what holy means.

We aren't methodists. Being a saint doesn't mean that person was "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" or whatever.
Exactly!  Couldn't have said it better. I'm amazed that no one else could answer this though.

So now, since we got the point across that they had a special purpose with God and that they weren't always morally straight, then why bring up events of killing and shortcomings of a saint, as if they're justified?  What's the purpose of talking about St. Theodosia killing an iconoclast?  Does that mean that because a saint did it, it makes it right?

I'm trying to challenge the reason behind those who bring up saints that did wrong things as if they're right. It worries me if that's really what they're venerated for.  Might as well make justifications for collateral damage in wars because the old testament seems to have allowed it as a military side-product.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 07:55:40 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline NightOwl

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Amazing how some people seem to think they know what's best for the Georgian nation more than the much-loved Patriarch of Georgia...

Offline Kerdy

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Then I'd like to see them come out and condemn the violence that happened. 

As would I. 

I'd like to see some of those priests provide for the well-being of those injured and killed. 

In what way?  Unless they are doctors or nurses, what could they provide?  Spiritual support?  Doubtful they would want to even see the priest.

A father may have not told his son to go and throw stones, but when a son goes and throws stones, the father is still responsible.

In no way is your statement even remotely accurate.  Grown men are responsible for themselves.  If they were of school age, they should be home.

Offline Kerdy

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you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of  mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia?  Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand?  Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality.  But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts.  Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Apparently in Georgia, the Church is not supported by the state--at the insistence of the Catholicos Patriarch. The patriarch is standing against the leaders of the state, who are pandering to Europe.
Does that lessen my argument somehow?  Is the Church a minority?  Is the Church a weak body in the country?

And should the Church of Georgia sanction gay pride parades? Shall it allow the state to destroy its traditional culture (that is, communism all over again)?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong (do we know the actual circumstances? What is the evidence? Do we condemn based off news reports and hearsay?).

This isn't to comment on this case, but when Christians are confronted by blasphemy, even the response of the holy is not bashful.

Arius uttered blasphemy. St. Nicholas smacked him. Men punished St. Nicholas and protected Arius. But God Himself restored St. Nicholas to his office as one not worthy of condemnation because Arius was deserving of rebuke.
What r u smoking? Where is the blasphemy? Where did anybody ask the patriarch's blessing for a gay parade? The Church, as in hierarchy, ought, more fittingly, not intervene in this. Really.
Why not?
Because people have, foolishly in my opinion, decided the Church should have no influence on politics and as a result, be completely hands off.  What they fail to understand is, as a Christian we are called to live every aspect of our life in that capacity, including politics.

Offline Kerdy

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Amazing how some people seem to think they know what's best for the Georgian nation more than the much-loved Patriarch of Georgia...

Good point.

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Then I'd like to see them come out and condemn the violence that happened. 

As would I. 

I'd like to see some of those priests provide for the well-being of those injured and killed. 

In what way?  Unless they are doctors or nurses, what could they provide?  Spiritual support?  Doubtful they would want to even see the priest.

A father may have not told his son to go and throw stones, but when a son goes and throws stones, the father is still responsible.

In no way is your statement even remotely accurate.  Grown men are responsible for themselves.  If they were of school age, they should be home.

In some financial way.  If they were implicated in the stone throwing and the violence, they have to pay.

Well, then, if they are grown men, excommunicate them until they repent.  This way, the Church would be clear they will not tolerate anyone who in walking with the priests and bishops in the protests become violent.

But if they're silent, then they are responsible for their actions based on their silence.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:05:37 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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As far as I know, most of the demonstrators against it were not violent, nor did His Holiness and Beatitude advocate violence.

Some proofs?

People were hurt. That was unfortunate, and possibly wrong

You have just gained another one level in lack of conscience.

Thanks. God bless you, too.
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Offline Kerdy

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In some financial way.  If they were implicated in the stone throwing and the violence, they have to pay.


The parents?  No.  People are responsible for their own actions when they are adults.  If they were not adults, the parents are only responsible when it is proven they were in some way involved in the child doing the wrong action.  If I have a teenage son who is busted for selling drugs, I don’t go to jail unless I put him up to it.  Same thing.

Well, then, if they are grown men, excommunicate them until they repent.  This way, the Church would be clear they will not tolerate anyone who in walking with the priests and bishops in the protests become violent.

This has nothing to do with what I addressed and has nothing to do with us.  We do not dictate Church policy.  I leave that to those in proper position.

But if they're silent, then they are responsible for their actions based on their silence.

No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  Silence does not always equal apathy.  And as someone has already pointed out, we don’t have the full story.  What is the background/history?  What events lead up to this?  Are the clips of footage we are able to see ALL of the video or is there something important we are missing?  We don’t have all the answers which is why I stated previously if the protestors initiated the violence they are wrong.

We also are all very well aware of mob mentality.  When a few get stupid, others who are emotionally charged follow their lead.  Most likely, there was only a small percentage of violent protestors.  This does not make it right, but without all of the information, we only guess.  

This is a single isolated event.  If Orthodox Christians the world over were attacking people, it would be different, but they are not.

This has nothing to do with what I addressed and has nothing to do with us.  We do not dictate Church policy.

But if they're silent, then they are responsible for their actions based on their silence.

No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:42:53 PM by Kerdy »

Offline minasoliman

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Quote
The parents?  No.  People are responsible for their own actions when they are adults.  If they were not adults, the parents are only responsible when it is proven they were in some way involved in the child doing the wrong action.  If I have a teenage son who is busted for selling drugs, I don’t go to jail unless I put him up to it.  Same thing.

I said if it's been shown the priests were implicit in this, then yes, they should provide.

Quote
This has nothing to do with what I addressed and has nothing to do with us.  We do not dictate Church policy.  I leave that to those in proper position.

I disagree.  It has everything to do with what you addressed.  If they are grown men, which I doubt by the way they act and what they said, then the Church should be quick to carry the big stick.  In fact, according to the articles here, many of the protesters have said they were inspired by Patriarch Ilia to go and protest.  Already, his name is invoked in the violence.  If Patriarch Ilia is silent, how does this make him look like?

Grown men wouldn't hide behind the patriarch's name in their violent actions.  Grown men would take responsibility for their own actions.  Because they do this in the name of their Church and their culture, the Church must act.


And let's not ignore this because it's an isolated incident.  What makes us different and responsible Christians is that we should be quick to condemn even isolated incidents. 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:47:35 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Kerdy

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I said if it's been shown the priests were implicit in this, then yes, they should provide.
 

I misunderstood.  If the priests promoted violence, this would be a problem, depending on the full story.

I disagree.  It has everything to do with what you addressed.  If they are grown men, which I doubt by the way they act and what they said, then the Church should be quick to carry the big stick.  In fact, according to the articles here, many of the protesters have said they were inspired by Patriarch Ilia to go and protest.  Already, his name is invoked in the violence.  If Patriarch Ilia is silent, how does this make him look like?
 

Of course they were inspired to protest, but this does not mean they were asked to hurt anyone.  I doubt his name invokes violence.  More likely people who were predisposed to be violent used this as an excuse.  He should make a statement of some sort, but I think we should give him a little more time to prepare the proper statement.  After all, whatever he says will be scrutinized.  I imagine he is already working on a response.

Grown men wouldn't hide behind the patriarch's name in their violent actions.  Grown men would take responsibility for their own actions.  Because they do this in the name of their Church and their culture, the Church must act.
 

Sure they do.  History proves different.  No one wants to be responsible for their own actions any longer.  Again, I do not know the complete history regarding this situation so I can’t get into that much detail.  What would you like to see as the Church’s response?

And let's not ignore this because it's an isolated incident.  What makes us different and responsible Christians is that we should be quick to condemn even isolated incidents. 

I didn’t say we shouldn’t.  My point was this is not the norm so over reacting is as bad as not reacting. 



Offline minasoliman

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I said if it's been shown the priests were implicit in this, then yes, they should provide.
 

I misunderstood.  If the priests promoted violence, this would be a problem, depending on the full story.

I disagree.  It has everything to do with what you addressed.  If they are grown men, which I doubt by the way they act and what they said, then the Church should be quick to carry the big stick.  In fact, according to the articles here, many of the protesters have said they were inspired by Patriarch Ilia to go and protest.  Already, his name is invoked in the violence.  If Patriarch Ilia is silent, how does this make him look like?
 

Of course they were inspired to protest, but this does not mean they were asked to hurt anyone.  I doubt his name invokes violence.  More likely people who were predisposed to be violent used this as an excuse.  He should make a statement of some sort, but I think we should give him a little more time to prepare the proper statement.  After all, whatever he says will be scrutinized.  I imagine he is already working on a response.

Grown men wouldn't hide behind the patriarch's name in their violent actions.  Grown men would take responsibility for their own actions.  Because they do this in the name of their Church and their culture, the Church must act.
 

Sure they do.  History proves different.  No one wants to be responsible for their own actions any longer.  Again, I do not know the complete history regarding this situation so I can’t get into that much detail.  What would you like to see as the Church’s response?

And let's not ignore this because it's an isolated incident.  What makes us different and responsible Christians is that we should be quick to condemn even isolated incidents. 

I didn’t say we shouldn’t.  My point was this is not the norm so over reacting is as bad as not reacting. 




Fair enough...

If this is the first time violent protests took place after invoking the good name of the patriarch, the Church can perhaps issue a warning that anyone who would do this again would be excommunicated. Any priest who participated in the violence should be deposed.  These reports of carrying nettles by the priests sends a bad message to the protesters, and it's inexcusable.

The church can continue to make clear that homosexuality is unacceptable, against church morals and Georgian values and culture. The Church should also reiterate its stand to excommunicate anyone who thinks homosexuality is acceptable and moral behavior. But the violent reactions of Orthodox Christians go against the commission of the gospel to spread peace, and wherever peace is rejected, let it return to you. Where Christians incite violence and not peace is inexcusable. The church should encourage that those responsible for the damage of properties and injuries of people should take responsibility and recompensate for them.  Only then would it be acceptable for proper penance to bring back communicants to the Church.

I think this message would serve the Church well and fairly.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 10:25:54 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline mike

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No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  Silence does not always equal apathy.  And as someone has already pointed out, we don’t have the full story.  What is the background/history?  What events lead up to this?  Are the clips of footage we are able to see ALL of the video or is there something important we are missing?  We don’t have all the answers which is why I stated previously if the protestors initiated the violence they are wrong.

We also are all very well aware of mob mentality.  When a few get stupid, others who are emotionally charged follow their lead.  Most likely, there was only a small percentage of violent protestors.  This does not make it right, but without all of the information, we only guess. 

This is a single isolated event.  If Orthodox Christians the world over were attacking people, it would be different, but they are not.


Offline ativan

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Some orthodox people wary too much about my people's "unorthodox" behavior. Save yourself energy for the future and I will tell you one thing: every time this type of parade will be planned it will meet the same fate. In fact, they, power much higher above, have tried to conduct such parades several times before (at least two times that I know of) and each time these gathering collapsed. We, Georgians, might be cruel, uneducated and barbarian orthodox people but how come those clever and humane beings failed to see that if this thing failed several times before it would fail again? They know it but they persevere. Why?

For the records, no gay is persecuted in Georgia. Gays have lived there long time and the had much gayer life when they wanted. They have gay clubs and no one has exploded those. We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this. Gay people must see it, that every time their attempt to expose their parades in open it will be met by opposition from Georgian people.

After all if you all say gay people should have right to do this and that why straight Georgian's, which is perhaps over 99 %, should not have their rights defended? We, over 99 %, don't want such parades and for the sake of democracy, if such a thing really exists in nature, respect our decision. We on the other hand promise that as it was before we are not going to break in their houses or clubs and bit them. Just do it in private.

BTW below is a youtube link to one of those gay pride parades in 2012 (under the name of "say no to homophobia") from last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK2qjGprS10

Offline NicholasMyra

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 09:03:05 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Andrew21091

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And little bit of violence will help this.

"In the End Days a man will be saved by love, humbleness and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of Heaven; humbleness will lead into the Heaven; a man, whose heart is filled with love, will see the God." - St. Gabriel of Mtskheta

Sorry, I don't see any love, humbleness, or kindness in the video you posted or in the actions of the protesters.

Offline Kerdy

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No.  Apathy does not always equal guilt.  Silence does not always equal apathy.  And as someone has already pointed out, we don’t have the full story.  What is the background/history?  What events lead up to this?  Are the clips of footage we are able to see ALL of the video or is there something important we are missing?  We don’t have all the answers which is why I stated previously if the protestors initiated the violence they are wrong.

We also are all very well aware of mob mentality.  When a few get stupid, others who are emotionally charged follow their lead.  Most likely, there was only a small percentage of violent protestors.  This does not make it right, but without all of the information, we only guess. 

This is a single isolated event.  If Orthodox Christians the world over were attacking people, it would be different, but they are not.


I could post meaningless photos as well in response posts as if they provided some sort of impact, but prefer to conduct myself in a mature manner.

Offline minasoliman

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
+1

It's people like these that should be excommunicated.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline 88Devin12

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
+1

It's people like these that should be excommunicated.

along with people in active homosexual relationships and heterosexuals in non-marital sexual relationships.

Offline ativan

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
Incarnated Son of God Himself cleansed the Temple of money changers. God the Father Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think any of us loves human being more then Creator Himself does.

Saint king of Georgia David the builder cleansed the Church of gay priests and likes and he was very cruel against them. He did it in the name of Christ. We can't even come closer to his sainthood.

There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

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And little bit of violence will help this.

"In the End Days a man will be saved by love, humbleness and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of Heaven; humbleness will lead into the Heaven; a man, whose heart is filled with love, will see the God." - St. Gabriel of Mtskheta

Sorry, I don't see any love, humbleness, or kindness in the video you posted or in the actions of the protesters.
Father Gabriel said and thought many other things that might come as a surprise to you. Believe or not he also said: don't turn your the other chick and fight against those who slap you on one side.

Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Offline mike

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.

Offline Orthodox11

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« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:57:19 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Offline Kerdy

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
Incarnated Son of God Himself cleansed the Temple of money changers. God the Father Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think any of us loves human being more then Creator Himself does.

Saint king of Georgia David the builder cleansed the Church of gay priests and likes and he was very cruel against them. He did it in the name of Christ. We can't even come closer to his sainthood.

There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

And little bit of violence will help this.

"In the End Days a man will be saved by love, humbleness and kindness. Kindness will open the gates of Heaven; humbleness will lead into the Heaven; a man, whose heart is filled with love, will see the God." - St. Gabriel of Mtskheta

Sorry, I don't see any love, humbleness, or kindness in the video you posted or in the actions of the protesters.
Father Gabriel said and thought many other things that might come as a surprise to you. Believe or not he also said: don't turn your the other chick and fight against those who slap you on one side.

Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

You bring up some interesting points.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:28:29 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Orthodox11

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There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

Sure, but being a soldier of Christ means entering into spiritual warfare against the devil and the passions. It does not mean using physical violence, especially when there's absolutely no need for it. The sword of the Christian is the Jesus Prayer, as the prayers for tonsuring a monk makes very clear.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:33:47 AM by Orthodox11 »

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Offline scamandrius

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!
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Offline Orthodox11

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!

I didn't make it, it's from Georgian media.

Offline minasoliman

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We just don't want our next generation fall into that sin, that's all. And little bit of violence will help this.
Will you at least stop doing it in the name of Christ? Maybe there is a local Georgian tribal war deity who would be a better substitute.
+1

It's people like these that should be excommunicated.

along with people in active homosexual relationships and heterosexuals in non-marital sexual relationships.
I imagine the Church already excommunicated those if they already have people who religiously believe violence is the answer to wipe them off.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:02:07 AM by Kerdy »

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!
What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

Offline Orthodox11

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What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.

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What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.

If he was going after the protesters and the protesters are the "bad guys", what’s the problem?

But let me get this right.  He smashes out a windshield and gets turned into a warmonger.  Border patrol agents get rocks hurled at them by the dozen, getting hit in the head, killed, and they shoot one person attempting to enter the country illegally as a result and the border patrol agents are evil.  I fail to see how the double standard actually works.

What am I missing?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:59:30 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Orthodox11

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If he was going after the protesters and the protesters are the "bad guys", whats the problem?

The anti-homophobia protesters. Yes, they are the "bad guys" in so far as they're promoting sin. The problem is the unnecessary use of violence.

But let me get this right.  He smashes out a windshield and gets turned into a warmonger.  Border patrol agents get rocks hurled at them by the dozen, getting hit in the head, killed, and they shoot one person attempting to enter the country illegally as a result and the border patrol agents are evil.  I fail to see how the double standard actually works.

I don't know, I don't think I've ever mentioned border patrol agents.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:01:24 AM by Orthodox11 »

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Offline Kerdy

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If he was going after the protesters and the protesters are the "bad guys", whats the problem?

The anti-homophobia protesters. Yes, they are the "bad guys" in so far as they're promoting sin. The problem is the unnecessary use of violence.

But let me get this right.  He smashes out a windshield and gets turned into a warmonger.  Border patrol agents get rocks hurled at them by the dozen, getting hit in the head, killed, and they shoot one person attempting to enter the country illegally as a result and the border patrol agents are evil.  I fail to see how the double standard actually works.

I don't know, I don't think I've ever mentioned border patrol agents.

So, he attacked the protesters you say are bad and he is vilified.  I am confused.  Should he not be honored?

You didn’t, just making a comparison to show the hypocrisy.

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.

Offline Orthodox11

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So, he attacked the protesters you say are bad and he is vilified.  I am confused.  Should he not be honored?

No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.

Quote
You didn’t, just making a comparison to show the hypocrisy.

Whose hypocrisy?

Offline Kerdy

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What’s humorous is how an old man with a chair is compared to up-armored assault vehicles, tanks, men with body armor and military weapons and attack helicopters.  It’s overboard absurdity.

There's a video of that old man using that chair to smash the windscreen of a bus carrying protesters. Of course it's overboard, that's the point.

I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.

Offline mike

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

Breaking the police lines and leading the charge.

Offline Kerdy

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No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.

I can respect your consistancy. 

Whose hypocrisy?

Everyones.

Offline Orthodox11

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I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.

Here's one.

Offline Kerdy

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
You know, sarcasm without appropriate, well thought out, intelligent responses is starting to lean me in the direction of “it may not have been as bad as you pretend”.  Keep up the good work.

Have you watched the videos?

Better than you have read my posts.

Or do you mean the one with a bunch of priests running from the violence?

IMO they were running to the buses.

Your opinion.  Have you even watched the videos?

Perhaps now you better understand what I have been saying in my posts about not having all the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7uC7VYF0NBI

Breaking the police lines and leading the charge.

Ok, still not seeing it.  I see a lot of people trying to get away from the violence.  Can you provide the specific second on the video?

Offline mike

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:15:33 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Orthodox11

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially when the number of nationalist counter-protesters dwarfed the tiny number of anti-homophobia protesters.

Offline Kerdy

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I can't seem to find this video.  I saw a lot of smashing of windshields, but I didn't see him doing it.

Here's one.
Ah-ha!  A video which appears to actually show something.  Thank you!  But I must confess...an old man barely swinging a chair at a hardened object which did not strike any person, and bounced off, hardly seems the threat he is being made out to be.  Had he whacked someone in the dome with it, now that would be different.  

Additionally, who was the person behind him to ran off with the chair?  Were they together?  The old fella was so much of a threat with his hulk like swing he didn’t even realize the chair was no longer in his grasp.  Understand, I am not debating the right or wrong of what he did, just the over the top vilification of the man.  It seems more like the shoe throwing type of thing done to Pres. Bush a few years ago.
I would like to see all of the video before I make a final decision, not just the media highlights.  I somehow doubt the parade folks showed up in a van and were immediately attacked.  It could have happened, but it seems unlikely.  And if they were, why?  Anyone have more video?

Offline Kerdy

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.

Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.

Offline Kerdy

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

Offline mike

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?

Offline stavros_388

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?

No, you're not.
"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton

Offline stavros_388

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.

Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.

You have an uncanny ability to selectively see/read/hear whatever you think will strengthen your position, while filtering out anything that does not.
"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton

Offline Kerdy

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In this speech, Archbishop Jakob asks the policemen for forgiveness for breaking through their lines.

I actually agree with nearly everything he says. It's the use of violence that I have a problem with. A peaceful counter-protest was perfectly possible, especially ...
A respectful position.  I do not find myself in disagreement.

You say they did not break the lines or attack gays. He apologizes for breaking the lines. You say you agree with him.

Am I the only one who fails to see any logic?

Your logic has several failures.  I never said the homosexuals were not attacked.  I also did not say anyone didn't brake police lines, only the video does not appear to show what you present, resulting in my additional comments about more video.  This proves you are not reading my posts.  
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 09:05:10 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

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Police is blocking them from attacking buses. They are breaking the blockade.

Yep, that is what I am seeing. ::)  I especially like the priest who gets out with the expression of relief only to walk to the side of the road.  He sure seemed like he was hell bent on hurting someone to me.

You have an uncanny ability to selectively see/read/hear whatever you think will strengthen your position, while filtering out anything that does not.

Like the videos themselves?  They are no different than showing only the few seconds where police shoot a suspect and ignore everything which leads up to that point.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:39:26 AM by Kerdy »

Offline stavros_388

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There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

Sure, but being a soldier of Christ means entering into spiritual warfare against the devil and the passions. It does not mean using physical violence, especially when there's absolutely no need for it. The sword of the Christian is the Jesus Prayer, as the prayers for tonsuring a monk makes very clear.

Amen!
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Offline Kerdy

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It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:48:41 AM by Kerdy »

Offline mike

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Not "one man" but 30k.

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Not "one man" but 30k.

I realize you have absolutely no idea why I am saying this, but thank you.

Offline mike

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Not "one man" but 30k.

I realize you have absolutely no idea why I am saying this, but thank you.

I have some ideas but cannot share them in Public Fora.

Offline Kerdy

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Not "one man" but 30k.

I realize you have absolutely no idea why I am saying this, but thank you.

I have some ideas but cannot share them in Public Fora.

In that case, they are all incorrect.  If any were correct, you could easily share in the Public Fora.  With that, I leave this thread and it's tunnel vision. 

May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Incarnated Son of God Himself cleansed the Temple of money changers.
He didn't incite a violent mob, he stirred up the animals and chased people around.

When an angry mob wanted to persecute a sexual sinner, he stopped them. Or do you not remember?

God the Father Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think any of us loves human being more then Creator Himself does.
"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

"...the people did not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, 'Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them?' But he turned and rebuked them."

Believe or not he also said: don't turn your the other chick and fight against those who slap you on one side.
Who cares?

Saint king of Georgia David the builder cleansed the Church of gay priests and likes and he was very cruel against them. He did it in the name of Christ. We can't even come closer to his sainthood.
"Saint' doesn't mean "morally right". We've been over this.

There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.
I think you are confused about what that means. Perhaps being the soldier of one of your land's old gods would be more fitting:


One can have all the blood one wants.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 12:56:22 PM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Santagranddad

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Sexual acts between people of the same sex is gravely sinful but nowhere in The New Testament is mob violence supported or condoned. Our Lord's actions and words in the Temple were considered and measured. No comparison can surely be made between the events in the Temple and Tbilisi?

While opposing the ever increasing demands of the Homosexual activist lobby, 'Queer bashing' is repellent. Trying to work out the sequence of events in Tbilisi even after watching lengthy videos of the sad events leaves me perplexed and disquieted. Understanding very little of the spoken language and none the written doesn't help.

Does anyone know what the hierarchy have said following these events?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 03:21:53 PM by Santagranddad »

Offline minasoliman

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It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.

Yes, but shouldn't a priest be an example to his people?

Have you heard of the Maspero Massacre in Egypt?  26 Copts were killed by bullets and run over by army vehicles in Maspero district of Cairo.  Copts started getting angry and would fight back and try to hurt any soldier involved.  One soldier (Muslim) asked protection from a Coptic priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvUUBg4Xmho

Don't you think that a Coptic priest seeing the mangled and severed bodies around him would be justified to pick up a chair and throw at his tank?

So I ask you, what would you do to a parade of "Drug Dealer Pride" people or "Spousal Abusers"?  Would you pick up a chair and break their cars?

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:00:07 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Tommelomsky

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It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.

Yes, but shouldn't a priest be an example to his people?

Have you heard of the Maspero Massacre in Egypt?  26 Copts were killed by bullets and run over by army vehicles in Maspero district of Cairo.  Copts started getting angry and would fight back and try to hurt any soldier involved.  One soldier (Muslim) asked protection from a Coptic priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvUUBg4Xmho

Don't you think that a Coptic priest seeing the mangled and severed bodies around him would be justified to pick up a chair and throw at his tank?

So I ask you, what would you do to a parade of "Drug Dealer Pride" people or "Spousal Abusers"?  Would you pick up a chair and break their cars?

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!

Yes, but remember: He is only a human being. Good or bad choice made.
We should pray for that priest and every priest on this very planet.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!

We don't know if he's a priest. He's wearing monastic attire.

Offline minasoliman

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It’s ok.  You can turn an old man who can hardly swing a chair into the criminal of the decade and ignore the public, blatant, “in your face” actions of the homosexuals who want to parade around and make fools of themselves.  It’s ok.  It’s what people do these days.  Cry for the evils of the world and spit at those who want better.  I really enjoy how people focus on actions of those who want no parade and ignore everything else.  A rational thinker would hope you would call out the wrongs on both sides, but perhaps that is asking too much from Christians these days.  I don’t know.  I am looking forward to the prostitutes pride parade where they hand out discount coupons.  Who thinks that is a good idea?  How about Drug Dealer Pride Parades?  Spouse abuser pride day anyone?  And you wonder why people feel the need to go as far as they do in protest.

Yes, but shouldn't a priest be an example to his people?

Have you heard of the Maspero Massacre in Egypt?  26 Copts were killed by bullets and run over by army vehicles in Maspero district of Cairo.  Copts started getting angry and would fight back and try to hurt any soldier involved.  One soldier (Muslim) asked protection from a Coptic priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvUUBg4Xmho

Don't you think that a Coptic priest seeing the mangled and severed bodies around him would be justified to pick up a chair and throw at his tank?

So I ask you, what would you do to a parade of "Drug Dealer Pride" people or "Spousal Abusers"?  Would you pick up a chair and break their cars?

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!

Yes, but remember: He is only a human being. Good or bad choice made.
We should pray for that priest and every priest on this very planet.

Shame on the Georgian priest!  Shame!

We don't know if he's a priest. He's wearing monastic attire.

If he's a priest, he should be held to a higher standard.  Deposition or excommunication does not mean we won't pray for him.

Do we not remember St. James:  "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (3:1)

And a monk who's dead to the world, why join the world in violence?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 08:37:47 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Tommelomsky

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If he was-is a priest, he should indeed have a higher standard. But the way our world has become today, even this..the unthinkable could (and perhaps has) happened.

It is in these times the prayers are so needed. Violence solves nothing (never has and never will).
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Offline NightOwl

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Has the Patriarch issued any statement condemning the violence at the rally?

Offline minasoliman

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If he was-is a priest, he should indeed have a higher standard. But the way our world has become today, even this..the unthinkable could (and perhaps has) happened.

It is in these times the prayers are so needed. Violence solves nothing (never has and never will).
I'm not saying beat up the priest.  That would be hypocritical.

Yes, the world has and always has been a perverted and violent place to live.  But if a priest in a country where he is the minority can protect and love persecutors from the violence of those persecuted, how much more a priest or a monk in a country where he is part of the majority to protect and love the perverted sinners!

Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 09:54:40 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Cantor Krishnich

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We must understand the culture and politics of Georgia before saying anything. Georgians are pious Orthodox Christians who seriously want to preserve traditional religious ethics in their society with the Church as the center of society. His Holiness is well loved by the faithful including many politicians and he often counsels Georgia acting as spiritual guardian, this is his duty, Eis Polla Eti Despota! Many years to the faithful Georgians who are pushing those who seek to harm the traditional society out of Georgia. Gay-pride parades do not belong in the streets of a religious Orthodox country such as Georgia. Both Homosexuality and Pride are terrible sins and a celebration/parade in honor of such monstrosity would be opposite of Orthodox teachings. The physical fighting between the Orthodox and the Gay-pride supporters was bad and the priest was not supposed to be using a chair as a weapon but the counter-protest was good.  
Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!

Offline minasoliman

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We must understand the culture and politics of Georgia before saying anything. Georgians are pious Orthodox Christians who seriously want to preserve traditional religious ethics in their society with the Church as the center of society. His Holiness is well loved by the faithful including many politicians and he often counsels Georgia acting as spiritual guardian, this is his duty, Eis Polla Eti Despota! Many years to the faithful Georgians who are pushing those who seek to harm the traditional society out of Georgia. Gay-pride parades do not belong in the streets of a religious Orthodox country such as Georgia. Both Homosexuality and Pride are terrible sins and a celebration/parade in honor of such monstrosity would be opposite of Orthodox teachings. The physical fighting between the Orthodox and the Gay-pride supporters was bad and the priest was not supposed to be using a chair as a weapon but the counter-protest was good.   

The idea of the counter-protest is good.  The violence however marred it, and made the protesters look good.  Therefore, I don't see anything good out of it.

It's understandable that Georgians have great love for their country to keep it sanctified, but where is the peace that comes with holiness?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 10:09:50 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline NightOwl

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We must understand the culture and politics of Georgia before saying anything. Georgians are pious Orthodox Christians who seriously want to preserve traditional religious ethics in their society with the Church as the center of society. His Holiness is well loved by the faithful including many politicians and he often counsels Georgia acting as spiritual guardian, this is his duty, Eis Polla Eti Despota! Many years to the faithful Georgians who are pushing those who seek to harm the traditional society out of Georgia. Gay-pride parades do not belong in the streets of a religious Orthodox country such as Georgia. Both Homosexuality and Pride are terrible sins and a celebration/parade in honor of such monstrosity would be opposite of Orthodox teachings. The physical fighting between the Orthodox and the Gay-pride supporters was bad and the priest was not supposed to be using a chair as a weapon but the counter-protest was good.   

The idea of the counter-protest is good.  The violence however marred it, and made the protesters look good.  Therefore, I don't see anything good out of it.

It's understandable that Georgians have great love for their country to keep it sanctified, but where is the peace that comes with holiness?

Well said, I agree-it's the violence that accompanied the counter-protest which is truly disgraceful and embarrassing for the Orthodox world, rather than the counter-protest itself. Hopefully more Georgian hierarchs will speak out against this and future violence. Maybe they would do well to reflect on the words of the 16th century Patriarch Metrophanes III of Constantinople regarding violence against Jews in Crete:

"Injustice ... regardless to whomever acted upon or performed against, is still injustice. The unjust person is never relieved of the responsibility of these acts under the pretext that the injustice is done against a heterodox and not to a believer. As our Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels said do not oppress or accuse anyone falsely; do not make any distinction or give room to the believers to injure those of another belief."

Offline scamandrius

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Good for you!  You know how to use photoshop!

I didn't make it, it's from Georgian media.

Next time include a web citation per oc.net rules of conduct so that you are not mistakenly blamed for its creation.
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Offline orthonorm

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Nothing says love like all of the above.
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Offline Antonis

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Sexual acts between people of the same sex is gravely sinful but nowhere in The New Testament is mob violence supported or condoned. Our Lord's actions and words in the Temple were considered and measured. No comparison can surely be made between the events in the Temple and Tbilisi?

While opposing the ever increasing demands of the Homosexual activist lobby, 'Queer bashing' is repellent. Trying to work out the sequence of events in Tbilisi even after watching lengthy videos of the sad events leaves me perplexed and disquieted. Understanding very little of the spoken language and none the written doesn't help.

Does anyone know what the hierarchy have said following these events?

Patriarch Ilia II comments:

http://www.pravmir.com/georgian-patriarch-calls-on-supporters-opponents-of-gay-movement-to-pray-for-each-other/
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Offline augustin717

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Nice. He could have said this beforeinstead of calling for a straight parade or whatever it was.

Offline ativan

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Real question is: who loves gay people more? those who support their unchecked behavior and those who promote popularization of it or those who oppose it?

Those who try to rip them to shreds with bare hands propably.
I've supplied important information and asked some questions that need to be answered. Instead of answering you chose to  ridicule me. This is how you argue.

Offline ativan

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There's a lot of misrepresentation of Orthodoxy going on today. Christian first of all is supposed to be a solider of Christ.

Sure, but being a soldier of Christ means entering into spiritual warfare against the devil and the passions. It does not mean using physical violence, especially when there's absolutely no need for it. The sword of the Christian is the Jesus Prayer, as the prayers for tonsuring a monk makes very clear.
Yes, for sure. But being a soldier of Christ also means to physically oppose enemy with every means possible. This is the type of Orthodoxy that has been practiced in Georgia since the time of its conversion. 3 Great saints who founded Iveron Monastery of mount Athos would engage in battle, at the front-line, against enemy while they were monks! This approach has been repeated many times.

In reality, you can't teach us what is correct way of being Orthodox. We've been Orthodox for 2000 years, officially since 334. We have not converted to anything else. If we allowed gay parades in any way, today they would request gay marriage. This has been proved many times already. I do not say this out of pride. I say what I and my countryman feel is true along. Of course, there are minority who does not think so and who think differently but those are fortunately small minority and there opinion in this regard does not count.

Offline ativan

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No, unnecessary violent attacks should not be honoured even when they're perpetrated by the people on the right side of an argument.
It was not unnecessary. Contrary to your statement it was very necessary. We now much better what is necessary for us, believe me. How can you judge from the side when you now nothing about Georgia?

I'm repeating things which apparently was not noticed in my first post here. The attempts to hold those types of parades has been tried several times before and all the time it was stopped by violence. Then I'm asking you: why do you want to persevere and try another such whatever while you know for sure that it will fail? That people will be really angry about it? Why do you want to still hold it while the day prior you've been warned by Church and by people? Who would be responsible if somebody died on so called "anti-homophobia protester" side? I'm not asking rhetorical questions. I really want to know what is your answer to those questions.

More to the point. 3 Georgian soldiers died in Afghanistan and there bodies just arrived the day prior to this date. Country was mourning. They new it but they still dared to come out in the streets to expose their behavior. They wanted to show to the world how they are oppressed and they got what they wanted. Everybody should be happy now and not engaging in pointless philosophical arguments.

If this will make you happy, I will say that though we have all the paraphernalia of 21st century our mentality is still back centuries behind. And I wish we never come out of it. I wish we get closer and closer to our ancestors.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 02:47:22 AM by ativan »

Offline mike

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Well said, I agree-it's the violence that accompanied the counter-protest which is truly disgraceful and embarrassing for the Orthodox world, rather than the counter-protest itself.

The violence in such cases is normal for the sc. Orthodox world.

Offline Santagranddad

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Well said, I agree-it's the violence that accompanied the counter-protest which is truly disgraceful and embarrassing for the Orthodox world, rather than the counter-protest itself.

The violence in such cases is normal for the sc. Orthodox world.

I for one for one find your comment at odds with your involvement on an Orthodox Christian forum. In some other environments it might lead to a motion of no confidence. And can you substantiate your assertion?


Offline mike

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I for one for one find your comment at odds with your involvement on an Orthodox Christian forum.


Why? It's true. Every gay manifestation in Eastern Europe I've heard ends up being attacked by violent "religious" mob. I would be surprised if for once it wasn't.

Serbia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znp8kTGyRx0

Ukraine: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2147385/Horrific-moment-thugs-attack-head-gay-rights-group-Ukraine-forced-cancel-parade-hijacked-neo-Nazi-zealots.html

Russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDOV6qvizmA

Lithuania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwkj1pcexM

Offline Orthodox11

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Why? It's true. Every gay manifestation in Eastern Europe I've heard ends up being attacked by violent "religious" mob. I would be surprised if for once it wasn't.

Perhaps it's a post-Soviet phenomenon rather than an Orthodox one?

Offline Romaios

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In an appeal to Christians to "peacefully protest" a gay parade in Chișinău the past Sunday, a Moladvian priest writes:

Quote
All that is needed is for 50.000 families (men, women and kids, holding hands) to cross the Ștefan cel Mare Boulevard and greet the bystanders and journalists with "Christ is risen!". That will be enough...

The organizers will need to be extra-careful, because there will be provocations and people who will try to stage altercations and acts of violence. Christians are forbidden to hit or spit anyone! We don't hate homosexuals - only their sin.

Source

There's a similar appeal from Metropolitan Vladimir.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 09:20:18 AM by Romaios »

Offline mike

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Why? It's true. Every gay manifestation in Eastern Europe I've heard ends up being attacked by violent "religious" mob. I would be surprised if for once it wasn't.

Perhaps it's a post-Soviet phenomenon rather than an Orthodox one?

Black Hundreds were also post-Soviet?

Offline NightOwl

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Well said, I agree-it's the violence that accompanied the counter-protest which is truly disgraceful and embarrassing for the Orthodox world, rather than the counter-protest itself.

The violence in such cases is normal for the sc. Orthodox world.

There are many sins endemic among the Orthodox as with people of other faiths. Something about The Fall, remember? I'm not sure what your point is- I guess you're just trying to be provocative.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 09:28:28 AM by NightOwl »

Offline JoeS2

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I for one for one find your comment at odds with your involvement on an Orthodox Christian forum.


Why? It's true. Every gay manifestation in Eastern Europe I've heard ends up being attacked by violent "religious" mob. I would be surprised if for once it wasn't.

Serbia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znp8kTGyRx0

Ukraine: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2147385/Horrific-moment-thugs-attack-head-gay-rights-group-Ukraine-forced-cancel-parade-hijacked-neo-Nazi-zealots.html

Russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDOV6qvizmA

Lithuania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwkj1pcexM

Why oh why do the Gays feel the need to rub our heterosexual faces in the mud just to propagate their agenda?  If you want to be gay, OK, if you are gay Ok, but don't push your abomination in my face ,,,,,,,thank you...  Whats wrong in keeping your preference to yourselves?

Offline Orthodox11

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It's people like these that should be excommunicated.

From what I understand, Mama Basili, who was one of the first to break police lines at the gay rights rally, had already been deposed by the Georgian Church for a previous act of violence and joined one of the Old Calendarist groups upon his release from prison.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 10:36:21 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline minasoliman

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It's people like these that should be excommunicated.

From what I understand, Mama Basili, who was one of the first to break police lines at the gay rights rally, had already been deposed by the Georgian Church for a previous act of violence and joined one of the Old Calendarist groups upon his release from prison.
+1

I praise His Holiness for replying and condemning the violence. It puts some hope that people like Ativan do in fact not represent the Georgian Church.
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Offline augustin717

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In Romania one of the main organizers of the so-called "marches for normality" (also involved with some church run orphanage, IIRC) has been recently outed for his own, say , out of norm preferences. He liked little kiddies.  Certainly not what those that mindlessly spew the phrase "traditional family" have in mind. although, ironically, many "traditional families" were like that.
http://www.evz.ro/detalii/stiri/lider-al-noii-drepte-filma-copii-in-ipostaze-pornografice-1022426.html
Where he worked and was taking the pictures:
http://sfstelian.org/

Offline mike

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