Author Topic: Patriarch Ilia II calls for ban on "gay rights march" "Gay-Rights Rally"  (Read 9698 times)

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Offline Gunnarr

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Some articles:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130516/georgian-orthodox-church-calls-gay-rally-ban

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=26062

http://www.rferl.org/content/georgia-patriarch-gay-rights/24988151.html

He issued a statement about the issue, but I cannot find the original. But here are some excerpts from the statement taken from those articles, perhaps it is all of them. but I hope the statement by the patriarch is not copyright...:

“As it is known a rally of sexual minorities and their supporters is planned on the Rustaveli Avenue on May 17, which aims not at resolving real problems of these people, but at speculating by this issue, because it is the fact that despite of traditions and way of thinking that is established in our country, they [sexual minorities] can live their private life without restrictions,”

“It is also the fact that there are universal values, which are common across time and space – moral laws are among them. All the religions and scientific approaches (psychology and medicine) consider homosexuality to be anomaly and disease (of course we do not mean here newly created pseudo scientific views). The Church considers people with such inclinations to be in a grave sin, which need help and spiritual assistance as a remedy for correction, instead of encouragement and especially imposing their condition on population,”

“That would be similar to liking actions of a drug addict and making public display of drug addiction. Our people have different aspirations and for that reason it is understandable their sharp protest against this [planned May 17] and similar rallies.”

“Our citizens view [such rallies] as a violation of majority’s right and as an insult to their traditions, religion and in general to way of thinking,”

“We believe that the Tbilisi Mayor’s Office and the authorities should take into consideration these [factors] and revoke permission given to homosexuals for holding the rally, especially now when there is a nationwide mourning for fallen brave men [reference to three Georgian soldiers killed in Afghanistan]"
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Offline Gunnarr

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here is another article that just came up:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/16/georgias-orthodox-church-urges-ban-on-lgbt-rights-rally/

with lots of angry comments on the backwards conservative orthodox church hypocrits (just a paraphrase... not my words)
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Offline Gunnarr

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/
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Offline Alpo

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.
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Offline mike

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+1
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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They should have protested peacefully.
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Offline mike

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They should have protested peacefully.


Welcome to real world. This is how Orthodox protest against "sins".
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Offline podkarpatska

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+1

+2. Kind of relates to the "tolerance" thread elsewhere and defining "tolerance." That surely wasn't it.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Why are you always so adamant to plop everyone in to one basket?

All Americans do this....

All Orthodox do that....

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Offline Gunnarr

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The American Orthodox are much more enlightened than the backwards Georgian Orthodox
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Offline mike

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Same in Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc.
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Offline Tommelomsky

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Why are you always so adamant to plop everyone in to one basket?

All Americans do this....

All Orthodox do that....



I wonder about the same thing.
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Offline Tommelomsky

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+3.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:11:40 PM by Tommelomsky »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Same in Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc.

Really?  I hadn't heard about it.

Even so....they don't constitute ALL of Orthodoxy.

Do you act this way?  Because if ALL of Orthodoxy does, and you say you are Orthodox, than you must behave like this, as well.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Do any of you believe that such protesters should be excommunicated unless they repent?

including the priests which also were in the protest

or if not, then is it not that bad then? how bad is it?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:20:19 PM by Gunnarr »
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Offline podkarpatska

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You are mistaken, once again.

This is NOT how all Orthodox protest against sin.

Same in Serbia, Ukraine, Russia etc.

Really?  I hadn't heard about it.

Even so....they don't constitute ALL of Orthodoxy.

Do you act this way?  Because if ALL of Orthodoxy does, and you say you are Orthodox, than you must behave like this, as well.


I think the type of hooliganism exhibited is more common in the countries Michal referenced than we see, or would tolerate, in the US. I don't want to believe it is any more a reflection of Orthodoxy than say Westboro is a reflection of American Baptists.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.
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Offline Tommelomsky

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Do any of you believe that such protesters should be excommunicated unless they repent?

including the priests which also were in the protest

or if not, then is it not that bad then? how bad is it?

Confession, repentance, almsgivings, prayer and spend some time to think about how you do things, why you do them and how you can improve spiritualitywise and as as witness of Christ.

addition: that is if they were involved violently.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:32:46 PM by Tommelomsky »
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Offline minasoliman

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I would agree not "ALL" Orthodox act this way.  But I would say it's been common among places where Orthodoxy controls the government, or at least state-sponsored.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.

While I understand your unwillingness to believe that some priests and people could behave this way, it is not unprecedented. I remember an anti Jewish near riot in Georgia or Moldova two years ago as an example. Comparing what is clear  from the videos and pictures in Tbilisi to the American March for Life is really is an unintentional affront to the peaceful, prayeroful folks and clergy who attend the March each January in Washington.

Offline mike

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.

Some priests or bishops bless such people or help them organise.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Are we sure the clergymen were violent?  Perhaps they were merely marching in protest.

We do that here in the States during Pro-Life marches.  The priests and bishops are often seen marching in the crowds.

Out of the thousands present not all were throwing things.

I could not find any violent priests, I only saw them marching. But they clearly were also marching along with everyone else to break the police lines
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Offline Shanghaiski

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I would agree not "ALL" Orthodox act this way.  But I would say it's been common among places where Orthodoxy controls the government, or at least state-sponsored.

There's always going to be hooliganism. People who have not taken the Gospel to heart will not act according to the Gospel. They are usually a very small minority and are not blessed by the hierarchy. Take the Bosnian Civil War. Patriarch Pavle of blessed memory excommunicated those responsible for war crimes and atrocities. Still, people used the cover of the Church for committing crimes. That is a blot for them, not the Church.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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It appears, in this case, the Georgian government and Church are at odds, unlike with the same case in Russia.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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They should have protested peacefully.


Welcome to real world. This is how Orthodox protest against "sins".

You're Orthodox, right?  Why do you protest against sins like that?  Or do you admit to over-generalizing?
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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The rally still went, but there were many protests and it had to be ended and people evacuated by buses

http://rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Disgusting. Believing in the Church's teaching is one thing and violent protests are wholly another thing.

+1

+2. Kind of relates to the "tolerance" thread elsewhere and defining "tolerance." That surely wasn't it.

A display of the opposite end of the spectrum.
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Offline Strongylocentrotus

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I think that clerical violence has a long history in the Orthodox Church, just as in other churches.  Some may even call it an honorable tradition given the pious mythology that surrounds some of the church councils, like St. Nicolas punching Arius in nose during the first one. The emperor had to send in his "marines" to restore order.  Alexandria in particular was noted for the violent nature of her clerics and particularly her monks.  Remember the pagan philosopher Hypatia was shredded there by demented monastics.  The Patriarch Theophilus incited the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391.  Dear old St. Athanasius was a serial inciter of violence during his many intervals of restoration and exile  In the twentieth century orthodox clerics were instrumental in inciting progroms against Jews in Holy Russia and in  Romania,  Orthodox clerics were also active in the Black Hundreds and the Iron Guard.  Even today in Russia there are many clerics active in nationalist organizations that espouse violent rhetoric against various perceived enemies of Russia.  Finally, just a few years ago monks on the Holy Mountain were attacking each other with crowbars and sledgehammers, so yes, there is nothing unduly odd about monks and clerics running amok in Tbilisi.  What little I've managed to unearth about contemporary Georgia, it seems to be that certain nationalistic elements in Orthodox Georgia feel anxeity about both the "westernization" of Georgia and about their government's increasing tolerance of muslim and other refugees into Georgia, particularly Iranian expats.  Either way, in my humble opinion, the attitude of their patriarch says in all.  As has been observed, a fish rots from the head.
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Offline Punch

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Gee, given the above reply, it would seem that the Georgian protesters were more Orthodox than the bleeding hearts on this forum, or at least more in tune with the Tradition of the Church.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Strongylocentrotus

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Bless our "bleeding hearts", they are calling us to honor the better angels of our nature.  The Georgian reaction is atavistic and not sustainable in the long run.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Not sustainable in what sense?

That perhaps immoral behavior will be widely accepted there, like it is elsewhere?

I may not condone the violent methods, but I can understand the people's desire to preserve their nation and uphold moral, and dare I say Orthodox, morals and ethics in their country.


« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:53:45 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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"The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you."

That perhaps immoral behavior will be widely accepted there
Yes, because that is the greatest moral issue they're facing; gay people being openly gay.

Not the fact that their church has so much sickness that there is a violent protest.

You don't have to be Christian to protest against gays. Any pagan family worshiper can do that. Should we set up idols to Vesta?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:04:40 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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I never said it was their only issue.

From their recent history, I would wager they have a number of issues they are dealing with.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Not sustainable in what sense?

That perhaps immoral behavior will be widely accepted there, like it is elsewhere?

I may not condone the violent methods, but I can understand the people's desire to preserve their nation and uphold moral, and dare I say Orthodox, morals and ethics in their country.




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From their recent history, I would wager they have a number of issues they are dealing with.
Wouldn't working mercy convert more than such protests?

Some day, whoever happens to be lording over that patch of dead earth will have to offer the nation's works to Christ.

You really want anti-gay protests to be part of that work?

There must be a better way.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 01:10:27 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Strongylocentrotus

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I never said it was their only issue.

From their recent history, I would wager they have a number of issues they are dealing with.



No kidding?  This ain't about morality, that is just the excuse used to turn out the thugs.  Beating up on gays is just some opposition faction in Georgia flexing their political chops against the government currently in power.  The only question is whether it was with the active connivance of Church or not.
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Offline Romaios

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Patriarch Ilia is very close to his people and he is very much revered. IIRC the Georgian Church was the first to pull out of the World Council of Churches and cut back on ecumenism - a very popular decision with the faithful. If the current government doesn't play this whole thing carefully, many Georgians might soon want to return to the arms of Mother Russia and leave the "corrupt West" to its fate.

Their president, however, would stupidly brag with his American allies and spit in the face of Russia. Ours was just as brave & wise.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 03:01:03 AM by Romaios »

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.
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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.
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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia? 

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

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They should have protested peacefully.


Welcome to real world. This is how Orthodox protest against "sins".

No, it isn't.  Your "real world" doesn't exist.  You sure have a low opinion of Orthodox Christians who don't cater to your sensibilities.  Funny how everyone attacks Christians for this, yet remain silent when others employ the very same tactics.  Violent protest is disgusting, but it isn’t the only thing…

Offline Alpo

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^Uhm...Corrupt West? Like Holy Mother Russia wasn't a lot more corrupted than any Western country.

Well, let me put it this way: Mr. Putin attends more Orthodox services than Mr. Obama does.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:30:19 AM by Alpo »
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What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:38:17 AM by Romaios »

Offline Alpo

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What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?  

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.

No. Violence against minorities is never right even if we happen to disagree with said minorities.
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Offline Kerdy

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I love how they are titled anti-gay rather than pro-Christian (Orthodox).  It looks to me as if the priests are trying to get out of the way.

While I absolutely do not condone violent protests and the injury of people for no reason, we must be sensible and understand at some point people are either going to give in, as many here have done, or resist.  The opposition knows this all too well and will push with all its might to either get us to stop the good fight or fight back.  If we give in, they demand more.  If we resist, they point fingers and say stupid things like calling us intolerant or homophobic or some other nonsensical term.  They know this will happen and in the off chance it doesn’t, they make up some sort of lie to make people think it did.  If the government there knew it was dangerous, they should not have let it take place. 

Now on to the protestors.  If they initiated violence, they are wrong.