Author Topic: Cloning humans  (Read 5304 times)

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Offline J Michael

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2013, 10:10:43 AM »
Quote
is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
Sounds like a good starting point on what should be classified as immoral.

Let's try corporations that do all of the above.

Sinful? Absolutely. In fact the very beginnings of commerce is sinful in itself.

But you remain mute when it doesn't involve the destruction of a fetus.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.  Again.  And I do not need to justify myself to the likes of you.

Do you ever buy anything?  (Ever by anything from ANY of those horrible corporations you criticize?) Then you're engaging in "sinful" commerce.  Have you ever sold anything?  Ditto.  Splinter, plank.
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2014, 01:05:08 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 01:07:34 PM by IoanC »

Offline biro

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2014, 01:19:50 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.
In a time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2014, 01:21:38 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Offline biro

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2014, 01:22:26 PM »
Hmmm. Interesting.  :)
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Offline Gkterra

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2014, 01:26:18 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 01:26:51 PM by findingfaith »
Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by,  just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2014, 01:46:56 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 01:47:35 PM by IoanC »

Offline Gkterra

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2014, 02:06:40 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 
Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by,  just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2014, 02:09:20 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

Offline Gkterra

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2014, 02:20:11 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

so then you're saying, any life created in sin, has no virtue, and is therefore unworthy of a soul?
Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by,  just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2014, 02:24:24 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

so then you're saying, any life created in sin, has no virtue, and is therefore unworthy of a soul?

No, I am saying that it is one thing to create a new person and another to replicate the same individual that has already existed. I will ask: is there any limit to what we can ever do? If there is, then I believe this may be such a case.

Offline biro

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2014, 02:25:49 PM »
There may be limits to what people can do, but there is no limit to what Almighty God can do. I see no reason why He could not give a unique soul to a clone, if He can give a soul to anyone else.
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Offline Gkterra

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2014, 02:31:31 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

so then you're saying, any life created in sin, has no virtue, and is therefore unworthy of a soul?

No, I am saying that it is one thing to create a new person and another to replicate the same individual that has already existed. I will ask: is there any limit to what we can ever do? If there is, then I believe this may be such a case.

but the clone hasn't existed before, and it can't be an exact copy, as it will be made of entirely different atoms. same dna yes, same person, no
Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by,  just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Offline biro

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2014, 02:40:10 PM »
Is DNA the same thing as the soul? No. It's part of the physical aspect of the body, but I've never heard it equated with the soul. Just because a body has new DNA does not mean that is a new soul. Or, that God can't put in a new soul if He wants.
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Offline Gkterra

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2014, 03:08:45 PM »
Is DNA the same thing as the soul? No. It's part of the physical aspect of the body, but I've never heard it equated with the soul. Just because a body has new DNA does not mean that is a new soul. Or, that God can't put in a new soul if He wants.

nowhere has dna been equated with the Soul, I'm saying, all life is precious, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it's creation.
if we can do it, I'm sure God knows that, whether it's right or wrong is mute, since that's never stopped humanity before. 
Are you content with just being an intelligent hairless ape that just cannot resist the primitive urge to fling poo at people passing by,  just like a monkey in the zoo ?

Do you stay in the field and do the work that you accepted, or do you continuously run back into town and give people black eyes, or maybe push them down the stairs, because they don't do what you do ?

Offline Opus118

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2014, 03:28:59 PM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Hi IoanC,

Monozygotic twins have the same DNA (same as would occur if cloning were perfect without the intervening DNA damage that occurs with age/viral infections).

No twins are, and no clones would, be identical due to epigenetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember.

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2014, 01:29:17 AM »
There may be limits to what people can do, but there is no limit to what Almighty God can do. I see no reason why He could not give a unique soul to a clone, if He can give a soul to anyone else.

I am not saying that He couldn't, but will He find the right reason to do it? I used an analogy for reference: why not wait for God to turn sin into virtue? Are we saying that He can't?

Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2014, 01:31:39 AM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Hi IoanC,

Monozygotic twins have the same DNA (same as would occur if cloning were perfect without the intervening DNA damage that occurs with age/viral infections).

No twins are, and no clones would, be identical due to epigenetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember.

As I said previously, I am don't know very much about clones. But the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov because it is taking humanity into directions that are monstrous.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 01:31:51 AM by IoanC »

Offline Laird

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2014, 03:01:22 AM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Hi IoanC,

Monozygotic twins have the same DNA (same as would occur if cloning were perfect without the intervening DNA damage that occurs with age/viral infections).

No twins are, and no clones would, be identical due to epigenetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember.

As I said previously, I am don't know very much about clones. But the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov because it is taking humanity into directions that are monstrous.

I agree. Humanity is prying into things they shouldn't be...
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2014, 10:10:44 AM »
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Well, one of the ethical questions on this has been in a number of Science Fiction stories with gengineering: Is the clone of a living person, an exact copy genetically, "property" of the original person. That is "I own my unique genetic pattern".   This comes into play with the idea of Person A wants/needs some medical resources such a a transplant.  It some stories it's a whole new young body with the original brain being transferred.  To avoid rejection problems a perfect match is a clone.  So the new one is created not to have a child or companion or whatever but to be ermm "broken down for parts" as it were.
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2014, 02:07:37 PM »
I keep reading this thread title as Clothing Humans and thinking...'oh not another modesty thread'



 :-\


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Offline biro

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2014, 02:17:56 PM »
 ;D Hee hee!
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2014, 02:22:18 PM »
... the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov ...

That goes without saying. However the high cost-factor, and actual need, points to the possibility that it may be the only way to preserve Upper Class Twits such as Vivian Smith-Smythe-Smith, Simon Zinc-Trumpet-Harris, Nigel Incubator-Jones, Gervaise Brook-Hampster and Oliver St. John-Mollusc.

Offline biro

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2014, 02:29:09 PM »
I would like to gently suggest the point that there are still plenty of people in the world. There are seven billion humans, more every day. We don't really need human cloning just in order to get more people. Also, I don't think most scientists are bad people who want to inflict bad things on us. A few may try. But I don't think most will. I don't think we're all going to see duplicates of ourselves everywhere. There are already a lot of people, the very vast majority of whom come into the world the same way they always have. ;)

Instead of being panicked by the idea of cloning, which is as yet a rare issue, why not worry about showing more love and help to those who are here?

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+one+another&qs_version=DRA

Lord have mercy on us.  :angel:



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Offline IoanC

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2014, 08:19:03 AM »
... the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov ...

That goes without saying. However the high cost-factor, and actual need, points to the possibility that it may be the only way to preserve Upper Class Twits such as Vivian Smith-Smythe-Smith, Simon Zinc-Trumpet-Harris, Nigel Incubator-Jones, Gervaise Brook-Hampster and Oliver St. John-Mollusc.

 :) :) :)

Offline elephant

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2014, 08:28:29 AM »
Everyone could have their mother-in-law forever!

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2014, 02:51:01 PM »
Everyone could have their mother-in-law forever!

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Re: Cloning humans
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2014, 02:55:34 PM »
Everyone could have their mother-in-law forever!

Ab omni malo, libera nos, Domine.

From all evil, deliver us, Lord.

I miss my mother-in-law, she was exceptional. May her memory be eternal.

Back on cloning. If a human being were to be cloned, scientists would use the DNA from the human to be cloned and insert that into the nucleus. However, different maternal mitochrondrial DNA would be found within the cell. Thus, there would never be a perfect "clone" twin generated unless the cell were from an identical twin. From the studies I have read about cloning, some from a cloning research doctor from South America, there are still many hurtles that need to be resolved.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 03:08:00 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.