Author Topic: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist  (Read 4514 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« on: May 15, 2013, 10:30:19 PM »
I get so confused why protestants (mostly) believe the Eucharist to be symbolic (such as the last supper).   Where are they coming from on what logic are they using to draw the conclusions on this?

As I reference the earliest Christian writings, I believe just about all of them (some more than others) reference the real physical presence of the body of Christ in the Eucharist, just as the Eastern Orthodox church teaches.  It is very apparent and direct how those in the 2nd Century carried on this belief from the apostles.   I just can't see the protestant logic or how they are drawing their conclusions.

This is one area where I heavily cling to the Eastern Orthodox church.   The church keeps the focal point ultimately to the Eucharist and believes in the physical presence of God within the Eucharist.   I mean that's 2nd century Eucharist teachings - very obvious.

I know a sarcastic answer is easy, but seriously, it's kind of in bold print and obvious....  :o
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:31:11 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 11:24:44 PM »
Why is this not in Orthodox-Protestant discussion?
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2013, 05:14:33 AM »
"This do in remembrance of me" is what they hang their hat on. To them, the Eucharist is merely a commemorative act, and therefore symbolic. Yet they blithely gloss over the literal meaning of "This is My body/blood". Go figure.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2013, 08:08:56 AM »
"This do in remembrance of me" is what they hang their hat on. To them, the Eucharist is merely a commemorative act, and therefore symbolic. Yet they blithely gloss over the literal meaning of "This is My body/blood". Go figure.
they also seem to ignore He lost many followers to this, as well as the Pauline verse on taking condemnation upon themselves.  And they say they're Sola Scriptura?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 08:09:39 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 09:27:07 AM »
This was kind of the issue that cemented the deal for me as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.  I probably would have been content to believe what the Orthodox believe and continue going to my wife's Methodist Church until I realized that the Eucharist is the literal Body and Blood of Christ.  I figured that the only way that can happen is if God specially ordains an institution to do that.  I can't just sit in my living room and pronounce bread and wine turn into the Body and Blood - it has to be done by an appointee of God.  That appointee would be the True Church.  Obviously, there is debate between the RC, EO and OO who that is, but it is clear that an institution such as a protestant church who doesn't even believe that it is the literal Body and Blood cannot be that appointee.
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 10:27:44 AM »
I am going to share my own perspectives and experience being raised in Protestantism.  I am not going to argue for the Protestant position or practice.  I am just sharing my experience.  I am not posting this to join a debate.

I get so confused why protestants (mostly) believe the Eucharist to be symbolic (such as the last supper).   Where are they coming from on what logic are they using to draw the conclusions on this?

I grew up in a Calvinist church where I was taught that you either view it as a sign or hold the RC heresy of transubstantiation.  I remember even being told that Catholics pass around photos of the host(?) looking like flesh on it's way to the mouth of a congregant.  I am not entirely clear on the EO view of the Eucharist as compared to the RC.

As I reference the earliest Christian writings, I believe just about all of them (some more than others) reference the real physical presence of the body of Christ in the Eucharist, just as the Eastern Orthodox church teaches.  It is very apparent and direct how those in the 2nd Century carried on this belief from the apostles.  

The early Christian I ever heard mentioned was St. Augustine either for his testimony in his Confessions or his views on original sin. Quoting the "earliest Christian writings" is not going to phase many Protestants who will simply quote back to you Calvin or some other Protestant teacher. Many Protestants see the RC as a corrupt Christianity and their own faith more pure.  The whole "Romaphobia" is going to cloud any study of the Church Fathers.

I just can't see the protestant logic or how they are drawing their conclusions.

Protestant beliefs and practices regarding what they call Communion aren't based on logic or historical analysis of earliest Christian writings.  Protestants basically practice their own traditions they've inherited under the illusion that they are somehow grounded in scripture (Sola Scriptura).

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2013, 10:34:03 AM »
I am not entirely clear on the EO view of the Eucharist as compared to the RC.
Simply put, the Orthodox view is that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. How this happens is a mystery.

Quote
Protestant beliefs and practices regarding what they call Communion aren't based on logic or historical analysis of earliest Christian writings.  Protestants basically practice their own traditions they've inherited under the illusion that they are somehow grounded in scripture (Sola Scriptura).

Not all Protestants, though. Since Lutherans and Episcopalians (if you include them as Protestants) believe in the Real Presence.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2013, 10:40:57 AM »
I am not entirely clear on the EO view of the Eucharist as compared to the RC.
Simply put, the Orthodox view is that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. How this happens is a mystery.

Quote
Protestant beliefs and practices regarding what they call Communion aren't based on logic or historical analysis of earliest Christian writings.  Protestants basically practice their own traditions they've inherited under the illusion that they are somehow grounded in scripture (Sola Scriptura).

Not all Protestants, though. Since Lutherans and Episcopalians (if you include them as Protestants) believe in the Real Presence.
I see Real Presence as different than the belief that it is the Body and Blood.  Real Presence seems like a kind of watered down version. I am present with my computer right now, but I am not my computer.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 10:44:10 AM »
The whole thing is confusing to me....always has been. So I just say, the Church teaches its the body and blood, and I will accept it, even if I cant understand nor explain it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 11:17:55 AM »
What is the confusion?  The idea that it is just bread and wine is in the Bible.  John 6:66, the first Protestants.

Though I'm confused on why the OP brings this up, and he rejects things he doesn't like too.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 11:43:01 AM »
I am not entirely clear on the EO view of the Eucharist as compared to the RC.
Simply put, the Orthodox view is that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. How this happens is a mystery.

Quote
Protestant beliefs and practices regarding what they call Communion aren't based on logic or historical analysis of earliest Christian writings.  Protestants basically practice their own traditions they've inherited under the illusion that they are somehow grounded in scripture (Sola Scriptura).

Not all Protestants, though. Since Lutherans and Episcopalians (if you include them as Protestants) believe in the Real Presence.
I see Real Presence as different than the belief that it is the Body and Blood.  Real Presence seems like a kind of watered down version. I am present with my computer right now, but I am not my computer.

Sorry - I should have been more clear - they don't believe that the Eucharist is " just a memorial." "Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are "truly and substantially present in, with and under the forms" of consecrated bread and wine (the elements),[7] so that communicants eat and drink both the elements and the true Body and Blood of Christ himself[8] in the Sacrament of the Eucharist." Lutherans and Episcopalians believe that it is a sacrament.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 12:37:17 PM »
Though I'm confused on why the OP brings this up, and he rejects things he doesn't like too.

+1
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 01:03:44 PM »
I am not entirely clear on the EO view of the Eucharist as compared to the RC.
Simply put, the Orthodox view is that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. How this happens is a mystery.

Quote
Protestant beliefs and practices regarding what they call Communion aren't based on logic or historical analysis of earliest Christian writings.  Protestants basically practice their own traditions they've inherited under the illusion that they are somehow grounded in scripture (Sola Scriptura).

Not all Protestants, though. Since Lutherans and Episcopalians (if you include them as Protestants) believe in the Real Presence.
I see Real Presence as different than the belief that it is the Body and Blood.  Real Presence seems like a kind of watered down version. I am present with my computer right now, but I am not my computer.

I agree with the terms that get jolted around.  Though I think any Orthodox Christian believes there is "real presence" in the Eucharist, it is because the Eucharist is really God.  If the Eucharist is God, then there must be real presence too.  LOL....   But it is watered down just to say that as it seems the physical body and blood belief gets distorted by just saying "real presence".  I've heard that before and was like "meh".   It's because the earliest Christians believed in the actual body & blood in the bread & wine. 
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 01:22:51 PM »
Though I'm confused on why the OP brings this up, and he rejects things he doesn't like too.

+1

It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness.  I know I tick people off as I'm critical of some EO practices but I love much of the faith too. (I know it's an all or none kind of deal, please forgive if I seem confusing) In the practice of the actual worship & faith, The Eastern Orthodox church holding the Eucharist as the central focus duplicates that of the earliest Christians.  ie "The cup which life flows" - "The sacrament which all other sacraments flow from".   This would be very matching from what I can conclude from writings of the 2nd century Christians.   

But you are right, I do reject things that I am not in agreement with.    But I also reject many many more protestant teachings than Eastern Orthodox (other forums). 

Probably the best way to sum it up if I confuse is "I've been down a rough religious road". 

I just don't understand how the protestant apologetics on this issue work.  It's just so obvious.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 01:30:31 PM »
Quote
It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness
This is the core of every contention between Christian groups. What is obvious to one group is heretical to another. To me, its obvious that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church....J Mike and Papist would disagree as their choice is obvious :)

To my Baptist family, communion is a symbol, and its totally obvious....as is Sola Scriptura...as is.....etc. etc. etc.

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Offline J Michael

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 01:38:54 PM »
Quote
It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness
This is the core of every contention between Christian groups. What is obvious to one group is heretical to another. To me, its obvious that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church....J Mike and Papist would disagree as their choice is obvious :)

To my Baptist family, communion is a symbol, and its totally obvious....as is Sola Scriptura...as is.....etc. etc. etc.

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Speaking solely for myself, I don't happen to think that Orthodoxy is heretical--but I think Papist might agree.  ;)
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2013, 02:39:18 PM »
I see Real Presence as different than the belief that it is the Body and Blood.  Real Presence seems like a kind of watered down version. I am present with my computer right now, but I am not my computer.

Not sure how Catholics actually use these terms, but it always seemed to me that while transubstantiation was a more technical and theological term, "Real Presence" was a more devotional term.  Both make the point that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ (with all that entails), but they are doing it in different contexts and with slightly different aims. 

Though I'm confused on why the OP brings this up, and he rejects things he doesn't like too.

+1
 

You took the words right out of my mouth. 
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2013, 03:34:30 PM »
Quote
It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness
This is the core of every contention between Christian groups. What is obvious to one group is heretical to another. To me, its obvious that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church....J Mike and Papist would disagree as their choice is obvious :)

To my Baptist family, communion is a symbol, and its totally obvious....as is Sola Scriptura...as is.....etc. etc. etc.

PP


The OP should be sympathetic with protestants since apparently that is his approach as well.  He agrees with some things and rejects others about Orthodoxy. That's exactly the protestant approach. It seems obvious to him probably because he happens to agree with that particular point.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2013, 09:38:26 PM »
Quote
It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness
This is the core of every contention between Christian groups. What is obvious to one group is heretical to another. To me, its obvious that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church....J Mike and Papist would disagree as their choice is obvious :)

To my Baptist family, communion is a symbol, and its totally obvious....as is Sola Scriptura...as is.....etc. etc. etc.

PP


The OP should be sympathetic with protestants since apparently that is his approach as well.  He agrees with some things and rejects others about Orthodoxy. That's exactly the protestant approach. It seems obvious to him probably because he happens to agree with that particular point.

Yes, I am sympathetic with several of the protestant faiths.  Mostly I agree with the Eastern Orthodox faith, but it really is an "all or none deal".   Just being honest.

If you consider putting all things aside, we aren't going to argue about Noah's Ark, Jonah, or the fact that St. Matthew was an apostle.   There is such a broad range or things we really would agree on.

To be fair also there are arguments that have caused schism in the Eastern Orthodox church itself such as beards, the calendar, ecumenism, etc.  Full blown divisions have come over these things. Some may see them as trivial, some write books on the issues.  I have my own issues with the church (more than calendar & beards)

But in this case I see issues in many of the protestant faiths.   While the Eastern Orthodox church follows the understanding and faith within the Eucharist, many do not.  

I research early Christianity pretty heavily.   I'm finding hypocrisy with protestant groups with challenging the EO faith with early Christian practices - yet never recognizing one of the most important fundamentals of the Christian theology itself - The Eucharist - and how it was perceived by the earliest Christians.  

The symbolism described by many of the protestant faiths strays from the body & blood understanding of the Early Christians.  It is confusing as the protestants condemn the church on other things (some of which I have as well), yet seem to skip over the Eucharist teachings of 1st & 2nd century Christians.  

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 09:39:43 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 10:04:31 PM »
What about the episcopacy/hierarchy? Is that a part of 1st/2nd century archeology?

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2013, 05:23:39 AM »
Quote
It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness
This is the core of every contention between Christian groups. What is obvious to one group is heretical to another. To me, its obvious that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church....J Mike and Papist would disagree as their choice is obvious :)

To my Baptist family, communion is a symbol, and its totally obvious....as is Sola Scriptura...as is.....etc. etc. etc.

PP


The OP should be sympathetic with protestants since apparently that is his approach as well.  He agrees with some things and rejects others about Orthodoxy. That's exactly the protestant approach. It seems obvious to him probably because he happens to agree with that particular point.

Yes, I am sympathetic with several of the protestant faiths.  Mostly I agree with the Eastern Orthodox faith, but it really is an "all or none deal".   Just being honest.

If you consider putting all things aside, we aren't going to argue about Noah's Ark, Jonah, or the fact that St. Matthew was an apostle.   There is such a broad range or things we really would agree on.

To be fair also there are arguments that have caused schism in the Eastern Orthodox church itself such as beards, the calendar, ecumenism, etc.  Full blown divisions have come over these things. Some may see them as trivial, some write books on the issues.  I have my own issues with the church (more than calendar & beards)

But in this case I see issues in many of the protestant faiths.   While the Eastern Orthodox church follows the understanding and faith within the Eucharist, many do not. 

I research early Christianity pretty heavily.   I'm finding hypocrisy with protestant groups with challenging the EO faith with early Christian practices - yet never recognizing one of the most important fundamentals of the Christian theology itself - The Eucharist - and how it was perceived by the earliest Christians. 

The symbolism described by many of the protestant faiths strays from the body & blood understanding of the Early Christians.  It is confusing as the protestants condemn the church on other things (some of which I have as well), yet seem to skip over the Eucharist teachings of 1st & 2nd century Christians. 



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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2013, 08:57:05 AM »
Sorry yesh, but with the way you approach your faith and dogma, the protestants have just as much right to a buffet style as you do.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2013, 10:37:46 AM »
Sorry yesh, but with the way you approach your faith and dogma, the protestants have just as much right to a buffet style as you do.

In a nutshell. Just what I was trying to say and you said it much better!
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2013, 11:01:49 AM »
Sorry yesh, but with the way you approach your faith and dogma, the protestants have just as much right to a buffet style as you do.

In a nutshell. Just what I was trying to say and you said it much better!
Oh stop you. Im gonna blush :)
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2013, 12:05:36 PM »
   Presbyterians traditionally do believe that one receives the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper.  They do not necessarily localize the presence of Christ to the bread and wine, however.  If a Presbyterian preached otherwise, they would not be keeping with John Calvin or the traditional teachings of their confession.

  The Anglican 39 Articles of Religion, which are shaping documents for even the Episcopal Church in the US, specificly say that the Body and Blood of Christ is eaten in the Lord's Supper "after a heavenly manner".     And in the hymnal, you'll find a hymn by Aquinas that describes "transubstantiation"- officially Anglicans and Roman Catholics agree there is no significant disagreement between the churches on the nature of the Eucharist.

 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:12:10 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2013, 12:17:27 PM »
Quote
The Anglican 39 Articles of Religion, which are shaping documents for even the Episcopal Church in the US, specificly say that the Body and Blood of Christ is eaten in the Lord's Supper "after a heavenly manner".     And in the hymnal, you'll find a hymn by Aquinas that describes "transubstantiation"- officially Anglicans and Roman Catholics agree there is no significant disagreement between the churches on the nature of the Eucharist
I've read a few places that it is not mandatory for Anglicans/Episcopalians to believe in the real presence, however. Is that true?
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Offline Agabus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2013, 12:20:15 PM »
  Presbyterians traditionally do believe that one receives the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper.  They do not necessarily localize the presence of Christ to the bread and wine, however.  If a Presbyterian preached otherwise, they would not be keeping with John Calvin or the traditional teachings of their confession.
The language of the Presbyterians is a "real spiritual presence," and some Presbyterians hold a high sacramental view that might even come close to a true Eucharistic theology (most of them were kicked out/left the PCA a few years ago). But if you look at the WCF, there's no way to read "real presence" in the sense being discussed in this thread into it.

Quote from: The Westminster Confession of Faith as used by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church
2. In this sacrament, Christ is not offered up to his Father; nor any real sacrifice made at all, for remission of sins of the quick or dead; but only a commemoration of that one offering up of himself, by himself, upon the cross, once for all: and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God, for the same: so that the popish sacrifice of the mass (as they call it) is most abominably injurious to Christ's one, only sacrifice, the alone propitiation for all the sins of his elect.

5. The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ; albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.

6. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense, and reason; overthroweth the nature of the sacrament, and hath been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions; yea, of gross idolatries.

7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive, and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of his death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:21:01 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2013, 12:58:59 PM »
]I've read a few places that it is not mandatory for Anglicans/Episcopalians to believe in the real presence, however. Is that true?

  It's not mandatory for laity.   Clergy are not routinely asked what they believe on the matter.   The dean I know told me that Memorialism in some quarters is tolerated as a belief, but it's rare in North America.   Having said that, it is taught in the official catechism that the bread and wine are outward signs for the inward spiritual reality of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.    This is more a matter of discipline, or lackthereof, than what the church officially teaches, which is not Memorialism.

  The 1979 rite II liturgy strongly implies that the bread and wine are objectively the Body and Blood of Christ.  The 1928 or 1979 rite I liturgy is more ambiguous in language, closer to the Presbyterian wording but the priest still gives the communicant the host with the words "The Body of Christ given for thee preserve thy body and soul to everlasting life."  Sometimes this is added too, "Take and eat in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thanksgiving", which has a more ambiguous sound to it, more receptionist.  In the newer Rite II, the priest just says "The Body of Christ, the Bread of Heaven".

  What the Westminster Confession of Faith says isn't entirely different from the Anglican 39 Articles, though they sound overly precise in a way that the 39 Articles never intended to be.  The 39 Articles aren't meant to overturn catholic doctrine- they are not confessional, merely limits on what the Church of England could and could not do in a particular historical period.   There are some that in the evangelical party who would like to understand them as confessions, and in a very Calvinist way, but most Anglicans have resisted this.

 "XXVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is Faith.
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped."

  Comments are welcome.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:12:07 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2013, 02:02:17 PM »
]I've read a few places that it is not mandatory for Anglicans/Episcopalians to believe in the real presence, however. Is that true?

  It's not mandatory for laity.   Clergy are not routinely asked what they believe on the matter.   The dean I know told me that Memorialism in some quarters is tolerated as a belief, but it's rare in North America.   Having said that, it is taught in the official catechism that the bread and wine are outward signs for the inward spiritual reality of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.    This is more a matter of discipline, or lackthereof, than what the church officially teaches, which is not Memorialism.

  The 1979 rite II liturgy strongly implies that the bread and wine are objectively the Body and Blood of Christ.  The 1928 or 1979 rite I liturgy is more ambiguous in language, closer to the Presbyterian wording but the priest still gives the communicant the host with the words "The Body of Christ given for thee preserve thy body and soul to everlasting life."  Sometimes this is added too, "Take and eat in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thanksgiving", which has a more ambiguous sound to it, more receptionist.  In the newer Rite II, the priest just says "The Body of Christ, the Bread of Heaven".

  What the Westminster Confession of Faith says isn't entirely different from the Anglican 39 Articles, though they sound overly precise in a way that the 39 Articles never intended to be.  The 39 Articles aren't meant to overturn catholic doctrine- they are not confessional, merely limits on what the Church of England could and could not do in a particular historical period.   There are some that in the evangelical party who would like to understand them as confessions, and in a very Calvinist way, but most Anglicans have resisted this.

 "XXVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is Faith.
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped."

    Keep in mind that the Articles of Religion were written within a few generations of a time when only the priest received the Eucharistic in both species- it was very common for the laity to rarely or never receive the elements, only to gaze on them, so early Anglican theology tended to emphasize the reception of Christ in the sacrament only through eating, and de-emphasize or deny the idea that Christ was present locally in the sacrament itself (so it was not sufficient to look at the sacrament or be in its presence).  Later versions of the prayer book emphasize both a change in the bread and wine and a reception in the sacrament.

  Comments are welcome.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 02:14:29 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2013, 02:04:39 PM »
What is the confusion?  The idea that it is just bread and wine is in the Bible.  John 6:66, the first Protestants.

Though I'm confused on why the OP brings this up, and he rejects things he doesn't like too.

You can only get kicked around so long. Eventually everyone wants a little acceptance.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2013, 02:06:16 PM »
So Puseyism took over the Anglican Church? That's a good start.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2013, 02:09:30 PM »
So Puseyism took over the Anglican Church? That's a good start.

How do you respond to this without making a joke?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2013, 02:19:19 PM »
So Puseyism took over the Anglican Church? That's a good start.

   The history of Anglican Eucharistic theology shows the difficulty in trying to talk about something that is properly a mystery.  There are people that will toss around whether Richard Hooker was or was not a receptionist, for instance (I've read him and am for one confused that he was suggesting any metaphysics, other than the important bit was that one received Christ into ones heart through the sacrament.  In this respect he is not different from Aquinas).

  I really do have respect for a genuine receptionist viewpoint, and also transubstantiation.   It's possible to become too analytical and overtun the sacrament.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 02:19:55 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2013, 02:20:52 PM »
First Puseyism and then Hooker?

I'm with Orthonorm on this one.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2013, 02:38:16 PM »
So Puseyism took over the Anglican Church? That's a good start.

How do you respond to this without making a joke?

Only with great difficulty and a clenched jaw.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2013, 03:02:58 PM »
So Puseyism took over the Anglican Church? That's a good start.

How do you respond to this without making a joke?

Only with great difficulty and a clenched jaw.

If necessary...

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2013, 03:27:47 PM »
So Puseyism took over the Anglican Church? That's a good start.

How do you respond to this without making a joke?

Only with great difficulty and a clenched jaw.

If necessary...



Ouch!
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2013, 11:39:36 AM »
Quote
It's because the vast majority of protestant faiths purely reject something of such obviousness
This is the core of every contention between Christian groups. What is obvious to one group is heretical to another. To me, its obvious that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church....J Mike and Papist would disagree as their choice is obvious :)

To my Baptist family, communion is a symbol, and its totally obvious....as is Sola Scriptura...as is.....etc. etc. etc.

PP


The OP should be sympathetic with protestants since apparently that is his approach as well.  He agrees with some things and rejects others about Orthodoxy. That's exactly the protestant approach. It seems obvious to him probably because he happens to agree with that particular point.

Yes, I am sympathetic with several of the protestant faiths.  Mostly I agree with the Eastern Orthodox faith, but it really is an "all or none deal".   Just being honest.

If you consider putting all things aside, we aren't going to argue about Noah's Ark, Jonah, or the fact that St. Matthew was an apostle.   There is such a broad range or things we really would agree on.

To be fair also there are arguments that have caused schism in the Eastern Orthodox church itself such as beards, the calendar, ecumenism, etc.  Full blown divisions have come over these things. Some may see them as trivial, some write books on the issues.  I have my own issues with the church (more than calendar & beards)

But in this case I see issues in many of the protestant faiths.   While the Eastern Orthodox church follows the understanding and faith within the Eucharist, many do not. 

I research early Christianity pretty heavily.   I'm finding hypocrisy with protestant groups with challenging the EO faith with early Christian practices - yet never recognizing one of the most important fundamentals of the Christian theology itself - The Eucharist - and how it was perceived by the earliest Christians. 

The symbolism described by many of the protestant faiths strays from the body & blood understanding of the Early Christians.  It is confusing as the protestants condemn the church on other things (some of which I have as well), yet seem to skip over the Eucharist teachings of 1st & 2nd century Christians. 



You cannot understand why Protestant imagined Church does not fit your imagined Church?

Like the imagined asterisk, iconostasis, discos, etc., that were brought into the church out of thin air?

Oh wait, my "imagined church".   
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2013, 11:45:51 AM »
Sorry yesh, but with the way you approach your faith and dogma, the protestants have just as much right to a buffet style as you do.

In a nutshell. Just what I was trying to say and you said it much better!

Yeah but they don't see the writings of early Christians and how they believed.  Just as I can't find anything about icons in the 2nd century.   So in this research - "my faith and dogma"- is trying to latch on to 2nd century Christianity.   Whereas the protestant church and Eastern Orthodoxy, seem conflated, bent and or twisted, with pieces remaining that seem the same.

For instance,
icons are not in existence to the early Christians or Baptists as the early Christians.
early Christians don't believe in the body & blood existing in the Eucharist as the early Christians.

The Eastern Orthodox believe in the body & blood in the Eucharist as the early Christians.
The Eastern Orthodox clergy were the vestments of  byzantine kings whereas the earlies did not wear costly array.

The faith & dogmas I am trying to latch on to are that of the 2nd century, where the iconostasis did not exist, and Sabbath worship was common.  Jewish feasts were common as well. 
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2013, 11:52:06 AM »
What is the confusion?  The idea that it is just bread and wine is in the Bible.  John 6:66, the first Protestants.

Though I'm confused on why the OP brings this up, and he rejects things he doesn't like too.

You can only get kicked around so long. Eventually everyone wants a little acceptance.

orthonorm trust me, last time I checked I wasn't an eleventeen year old.   I don't need acceptance from random people online.  Been married nearly 2 decades and have 5 children.  Seriously, I can take a kicking.

I'm just trying to engage in religious dialog.  So where were my facts wrong again?
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2013, 01:31:59 PM »
I get so confused why protestants (mostly) believe the Eucharist to be symbolic (such as the last supper).   Where are they coming from on what logic are they using to draw the conclusions on this?

   Historically, most Protestants don't believe the Lord's Supper is a bare symbol.  They believe that the faithful who receive the Lord's Supper partake of the Body and Blood of Christ, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine, or that the priest is offering up Christ anew each time to propitiate God's wrath.  

  Now, due to the influence of the evangelical, pietistic movement in Protestantism, many  Protestants now days consider the Eucharist an ordinance, a gesture of faith, but not a means of grace.  However, that's not the historic beliefs of Protestants except for the Anabaptist and Baptist tradition ,which rejected the concept of sacramental grace altogether.

  
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 01:32:26 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2013, 01:40:06 PM »
Yeah but they don't see the writings of early Christians and how they believed.  Just as I can't find anything about icons in the 2nd century.   So in this research - "my faith and dogma"- is trying to latch on to 2nd century Christianity.   Whereas the protestant church and Eastern Orthodoxy, seem conflated, bent and or twisted, with pieces remaining that seem the same.

You won't find anything about English in the 2nd century either.  You won't find anything about the 3rd century in the 2nd century for that matter.  Time passes, and stuff happens.  Why get bent out of shape over non-heretical liturgical items? 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2013, 01:46:24 PM »


worst nightmare
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2013, 08:20:53 PM »


worst nightmare

I'm screaming!!!   ::)

But you know, all jokes aside, it is completely "made up".   Look, I started this thread supporting an Orthodox position.  I stand by this position as it supports early Christian belief.    I know we bump heads on other issues and that is okay.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »
I like you YiM,  I disagree with you on a lot, but you seem that you are honestly looking for the truth.  I don't quite understand your aversion to liturgical implements, but I won't derail your thread for that.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2013, 12:00:57 AM »


worst nightmare

I'm screaming!!!   ::)

But you know, all jokes aside, it is completely "made up".   Look, I started this thread supporting an Orthodox position.  I stand by this position as it supports early Christian belief.    I know we bump heads on other issues and that is okay.

Yesh, do you know anything about the purpose and symbolism of the liturgical vessels you so stridently denigrate?
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2013, 12:57:12 AM »
Like the imagined asterisk, iconostasis, discos, etc., that were brought into the church out of thin air?

Oh wait, my "imagined church".  

"Out of thin air"? How do you imagine the early Christians handled the Eucharist? Maybe baskets or plastic containers? Or did they only touch it with their bare hands? Was there a pile of bread on a plain table and a cup nearby?

I presume you already know everything there is to know about what kind of vessels and cutlery they used throughout the Roman world in the first century AD.

When do you suppose the Jews invented their seder plates? Were they not commanded to borrow gold and silver vessels from the Egyptians? What about the precious objects in the temple?

« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 01:21:14 AM by Romaios »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2013, 12:59:56 PM »


worst nightmare

I'm screaming!!!   ::)

But you know, all jokes aside, it is completely "made up".   Look, I started this thread supporting an Orthodox position.  I stand by this position as it supports early Christian belief.    I know we bump heads on other issues and that is okay.

Yesh, do you know anything about the purpose and symbolism of the liturgical vessels you so stridently denigrate?

Yes.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2013, 01:01:28 PM »
Like the imagined asterisk, iconostasis, discos, etc., that were brought into the church out of thin air?

Oh wait, my "imagined church".  

"Out of thin air"? How do you imagine the early Christians handled the Eucharist? Maybe baskets or plastic containers? Or did they only touch it with their bare hands? Was there a pile of bread on a plain table and a cup nearby?

I presume you already know everything there is to know about what kind of vessels and cutlery they used throughout the Roman world in the first century AD.

When do you suppose the Jews invented their seder plates? Were they not commanded to borrow gold and silver vessels from the Egyptians? What about the precious objects in the temple?



The early Christians did not have temples.  They were in hiding, tombs, homes, etc.
The early Christians broke the Eucharist in the Passover meal.  This is done with hands.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2013, 01:19:56 PM »
I dunno about that.  The Apostles taught in the temple and one can assume they also performed Eucharistic rituals there as well.  Much teaching and worshiping was also done in synoguages, so I don't think it is a stretch to think that they used the ceremonial items in there.

Even if they didn't use all that stuff, what does it really matter?  If they didn't have the means to use consecrated items for worship doesn't mean they thought they were wrong.  They also didn't wear pants while worshiping either.  That doesn't mean we should all get 1st century robes to wear while worshiping.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2013, 01:25:25 PM »

The early Christians broke the Eucharist in the Passover meal.  This is done with hands.

So the Eucharist was only once a year? 
Quote
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2013, 01:30:57 PM »
The early Christians did not have temples.  They were in hiding, tombs, homes, etc.

Nevertheless, the Temple traditions still impregnated their imagination and influenced their liturgies - see the Book of Revelation. According to Papias (2nd century AD), John the Presbyter even wore the petalos (the golden plate on the mitre of the High Priest) in his old age at Ephesus.
 
The early Christians broke the Eucharist in the Passover meal.  This is done with hands.

Before breaking and distributing it, it must have been kept/contained in or on something. That was no common rag or ordinary vessel. The parables of Our Lord speak of a King's banquet, the "supper of the Lamb", the fattened calf, the best robe. The Didache likewise speaks of the Eucharist as of the Holy and the Pearl which is not to be given to the dogs/swine. Nothing "ordinary" about it. Despite being poor or slaves or having to celebrate the Eucharist in hiding, the early Christians would have done their best to show reverence to the Mystery.

St. Lydia of Filippi, the first Christian in Europe, whose feast we just celebrated, was a purple merchant... How do you imagine the Eucharist celebrated in her house? On some ordinary kitchen cloth? 

Christ did not refuse to be anointed with the best myrrh before his burial - he was placed in a new tomb, with his body wrapped in "clean linen" and fittingly prepared for burial, according to the custom of his people. That's what we remember the "noble" (euschemos ~ graceful/elegant) Joseph and the Myrrh-bearers for.  Those Jews were Orientals - not puritan Protestants with an extreme cult for "simplicity".     
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 01:57:45 PM by Romaios »

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2013, 01:43:56 PM »
The early Christians did not have temples.  They were in hiding, tombs, homes, etc.

But after the Edict of Milan, they did not continue to hide in tombs or homes, but either built or converted houses into beautiful places of worship. They only worshipped in secret in the catacombs out of necessity, not because it was any holier or more pure to do so.

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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2013, 01:48:11 PM »
The early Christians broke the Eucharist in the Passover meal.  This is done with hands.

Do you mean that they celebrated the Eucharist once a year at Passover? Because St. Justin Martyr (100-165 AD or thereabouts, and not too long after St. John wrote Revelation) writes about regular (weekly) Christian worship that is not the Passover meal but recognizably the same as today.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2013, 01:49:56 PM »
Here is the perfect product for the modern church on the go.  Are you tired of sitting through a full Divine Liturgy?  Are you uncomfortable with all the gold and glitz on the liturgical implements?  Then here is the answer for you!  For only 89.99, you can commune up to 500 congregants!  With new and improved flavor, this is sure to be a hit.  Christ may have said "This is My Body broken for you", but it is so much easier when it is pre-broken and packaged!

http://www.christianbook.com/fellowship-prefilled-communion-cups-box-500/pd/116702?en=google-pla&kw=church-supplies-80-100&p=1167941&gclid=CIWj-LmepbcCFdCZ4Aod7l0AiA
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 01:50:22 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline Dpaula

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2013, 02:18:18 PM »
Here is the perfect product for the modern church on the go.  Are you tired of sitting through a full Divine Liturgy?  Are you uncomfortable with all the gold and glitz on the liturgical implements?  Then here is the answer for you!  For only 89.99, you can commune up to 500 congregants!  With new and improved flavor, this is sure to be a hit.  Christ may have said "This is My Body broken for you", but it is so much easier when it is pre-broken and packaged!

http://www.christianbook.com/fellowship-prefilled-communion-cups-box-500/pd/116702?en=google-pla&kw=church-supplies-80-100&p=1167941&gclid=CIWj-LmepbcCFdCZ4Aod7l0AiA


Oh Lord, Jesus Christ, Son Of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!

I'm so sorry, but I clicked on this link, and I just couldn't stop myself and started laughing out loud.

Why? What's the purpose of it? How far can they go? When are they going to stop?

For some, Christianity has become a business and nothing more. It sadness me....
Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2013, 02:24:27 PM »
Might you also be interested in a host dispenser?  It is the safe and sanitary way to offer communion.  It also has a Revolutionary Rapid Re-load System to allow for quick fill ups.

http://www.christianbook.com/silver-host-dispenser/pd/115620?item_code=WW&netp_id=909526&event=EBRN&view=details
God bless!

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2013, 02:48:02 PM »
Ummm, logic alert:

The early hebrews didn't have temples before Solomon. So by your logic, the jews should have never had a temple either. So, now that that is cleared up, can you give me a legitimate reason why we should not have beautiful places to worship?Or is this gonna be more puritanical nonsense of "4 blank walls and a podium"?

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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2013, 03:07:40 PM »
Might you also be interested in a host dispenser?  It is the safe and sanitary way to offer communion.  It also has a Revolutionary Rapid Re-load System to allow for quick fill ups.

http://www.christianbook.com/silver-host-dispenser/pd/115620?item_code=WW&netp_id=909526&event=EBRN&view=details

Ewwww!   :o
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2013, 03:09:57 PM »
Here is the perfect product for the modern church on the go.  Are you tired of sitting through a full Divine Liturgy?  Are you uncomfortable with all the gold and glitz on the liturgical implements?  Then here is the answer for you!  For only 89.99, you can commune up to 500 congregants!  With new and improved flavor, this is sure to be a hit.  Christ may have said "This is My Body broken for you", but it is so much easier when it is pre-broken and packaged!

http://www.christianbook.com/fellowship-prefilled-communion-cups-box-500/pd/116702?en=google-pla&kw=church-supplies-80-100&p=1167941&gclid=CIWj-LmepbcCFdCZ4Aod7l0AiA

And how would the priest consecrate it?  How would this prevent spills?   :o
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline biro

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »
What was that about knowing the price of everything, but the value of nothing...

My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2013, 04:10:58 PM »
Here is the perfect product for the modern church on the go.  Are you tired of sitting through a full Divine Liturgy?  Are you uncomfortable with all the gold and glitz on the liturgical implements?  Then here is the answer for you!  For only 89.99, you can commune up to 500 congregants!  With new and improved flavor, this is sure to be a hit.  Christ may have said "This is My Body broken for you", but it is so much easier when it is pre-broken and packaged!

http://www.christianbook.com/fellowship-prefilled-communion-cups-box-500/pd/116702?en=google-pla&kw=church-supplies-80-100&p=1167941&gclid=CIWj-LmepbcCFdCZ4Aod7l0AiA

And how would the priest consecrate it?  How would this prevent spills?   :o

Maybe its pre-consecrated.  ;)
God bless!

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2013, 04:47:29 PM »
Here is the perfect product for the modern church on the go.  Are you tired of sitting through a full Divine Liturgy?  Are you uncomfortable with all the gold and glitz on the liturgical implements?  Then here is the answer for you!  For only 89.99, you can commune up to 500 congregants!  With new and improved flavor, this is sure to be a hit.  Christ may have said "This is My Body broken for you", but it is so much easier when it is pre-broken and packaged!

http://www.christianbook.com/fellowship-prefilled-communion-cups-box-500/pd/116702?en=google-pla&kw=church-supplies-80-100&p=1167941&gclid=CIWj-LmepbcCFdCZ4Aod7l0AiA

And how would the priest consecrate it?  How would this prevent spills?   :o


Maybe its pre-consecrated.  ;)

OY VEY!   :o
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Offline theistgal

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2013, 05:10:42 PM »
Might you also be interested in a host dispenser?  It is the safe and sanitary way to offer communion.  It also has a Revolutionary Rapid Re-load System to allow for quick fill ups.

http://www.christianbook.com/silver-host-dispenser/pd/115620?item_code=WW&netp_id=909526&event=EBRN&view=details

Would that also work with Pringles?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2013, 05:38:35 PM »
Here is the perfect product for the modern church on the go.  Are you tired of sitting through a full Divine Liturgy?  Are you uncomfortable with all the gold and glitz on the liturgical implements?  Then here is the answer for you!  For only 89.99, you can commune up to 500 congregants!  With new and improved flavor, this is sure to be a hit.  Christ may have said "This is My Body broken for you", but it is so much easier when it is pre-broken and packaged!

http://www.christianbook.com/fellowship-prefilled-communion-cups-box-500/pd/116702?en=google-pla&kw=church-supplies-80-100&p=1167941&gclid=CIWj-LmepbcCFdCZ4Aod7l0AiA

And how would the priest consecrate it?  How would this prevent spills?   :o


Maybe its pre-consecrated.  ;)

OY VEY!   :o

Don't worry, I'm sure that the only users of such a ridiculous thing would be those who believe it only to be symbolic.  I can't imagine that anyone who accepts that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ would treat it in such horrid fashion.  I don't think they would even see a purpose in consecration.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:40:09 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline Wyatt

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2013, 11:12:18 PM »
Might you also be interested in a host dispenser?  It is the safe and sanitary way to offer communion.  It also has a Revolutionary Rapid Re-load System to allow for quick fill ups.

http://www.christianbook.com/silver-host-dispenser/pd/115620?item_code=WW&netp_id=909526&event=EBRN&view=details
Wow...that is disgusting. :/

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2013, 11:26:26 PM »
The early Christians broke the Eucharist in the Passover meal.  This is done with hands.

Do you mean that they celebrated the Eucharist once a year at Passover? Because St. Justin Martyr (100-165 AD or thereabouts, and not too long after St. John wrote Revelation) writes about regular (weekly) Christian worship that is not the Passover meal but recognizably the same as today.

Nope, I'm talking the earliest of the early, the ones sitting with Jesus.    Nisan 14
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2013, 11:28:12 PM »
The early Christians did not have temples.  They were in hiding, tombs, homes, etc.

Nevertheless, the Temple traditions still impregnated their imagination and influenced their liturgies - see the Book of Revelation. According to Papias (2nd century AD), John the Presbyter even wore the petalos (the golden plate on the mitre of the High Priest) in his old age at Ephesus.
 
The early Christians broke the Eucharist in the Passover meal.  This is done with hands.

Before breaking and distributing it, it must have been kept/contained in or on something. That was no common rag or ordinary vessel. The parables of Our Lord speak of a King's banquet, the "supper of the Lamb", the fattened calf, the best robe. The Didache likewise speaks of the Eucharist as of the Holy and the Pearl which is not to be given to the dogs/swine. Nothing "ordinary" about it. Despite being poor or slaves or having to celebrate the Eucharist in hiding, the early Christians would have done their best to show reverence to the Mystery.

St. Lydia of Filippi, the first Christian in Europe, whose feast we just celebrated, was a purple merchant... How do you imagine the Eucharist celebrated in her house? On some ordinary kitchen cloth? 

Christ did not refuse to be anointed with the best myrrh before his burial - he was placed in a new tomb, with his body wrapped in "clean linen" and fittingly prepared for burial, according to the custom of his people. That's what we remember the "noble" (euschemos ~ graceful/elegant) Joseph and the Myrrh-bearers for.  Those Jews were Orientals - not puritan Protestants with an extreme cult for "simplicity".     

So the discos was worn?

Blah...

It's gone off topic.

Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #68 on: May 20, 2013, 11:56:36 PM »
Well, to be honest, it is kinda hard to keep on topic when we all agree that the Eucharist is the literal Body and Blood of Christ.  Threads continue when there is differing opinions and viewpoints to banter back and forth.  We can't really do that for this topic unless we recruit Rachel to come in and argue against it.  That is why the convo moves to topics where there is a difference of opinion.
God bless!

Offline mike

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2013, 05:12:20 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 05:12:30 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2013, 05:31:07 AM »
So the discos was worn?

Probably a larger version of it. The discos is a miniature plate.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2013, 11:27:43 PM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic.  

I believe they know what their churches are better than what you do.

EDIT - The EO church has non-traditional beliefs for the Early Christian church.... See they practiced Jewish feasts, which are banned in EO.   Sorry, but the EO church is "not as traditional or original as you think".
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 11:31:17 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline LBK

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2013, 11:38:46 PM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic.  

I believe they know what their churches are better than what you do.

EDIT - The EO church has non-traditional beliefs for the Early Christian church.... See they practiced Jewish feasts, which are banned in EO.   Sorry, but the EO church is "not as traditional or original as you think".

There is only ONE true Christian faith, and that is the Orthodox faith. All others have either added to it or subtracted from it, molding the Church into their own image. This is the core and essence of protestantism: I don't agree with what the Church teaches and/or does, I'll interpret scripture and tradition as I see fit, and make my own church.
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Offline mike

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2013, 06:37:16 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

Ebionites are long dead. And Messianic Jews or Anabaptists are Protestants whatever they think about themselves.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2013, 10:00:42 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

I believe they know what their churches are better than what you do.

EDIT - The EO church has non-traditional beliefs for the Early Christian church.... See they practiced Jewish feasts, which are banned in EO.   Sorry, but the EO church is "not as traditional or original as you think".
Sorry yesh, you are Protestant. You can try to link yourself with the early church all you want but the truth is, you do what every other protestant denomination does. You stand at the buffet line, picking what you want, rejecting what you dont, and ignore evidence on how wrong you are then claim victory.

Anabaptists are protestant. They're free to call them selves restorationists or whatever else they want. The fact is, their beliefs were not taught by the Early Fathers, nor the APostles that ordained them.

As for the Ebionites, they were Gnostics and dealt with.

Ill say this. If you grab a Delorean and go back to the early church period, it will look far more recognizable to an EO than to an Anabaptist, or Mennonite or <insert here>.

PP
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2013, 10:53:19 AM »
The Protestant test is rather easy for me.

Are you Orthodox Y/N

Are you non-Chalcodean y/n?

Are you part of the RCC(any of the 23 churches) Y/N

If you have a yes here anywhere, they you are not Protestant, but if you have all no's, then, you are a Protestant.


Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2013, 10:59:35 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

Ebionites are long dead. And Messianic Jews or Anabaptists are Protestants whatever they think about themselves.

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic[1] religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s.[9] It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2013, 11:37:53 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic.  

I believe they know what their churches are better than what you do.

EDIT - The EO church has non-traditional beliefs for the Early Christian church.... See they practiced Jewish feasts, which are banned in EO.   Sorry, but the EO church is "not as traditional or original as you think".

There is only ONE true Christian faith, and that is the Orthodox faith. All others have either added to it or subtracted from it, molding the Church into their own image. This is the core and essence of protestantism: I don't agree with what the Church teaches and/or does, I'll interpret scripture and tradition as I see fit, and make my own church.

Then you need to read about the Ebionites, who did not come from the EO church.  Or the Nazarite Christians, that even EO Saints have quoted.  They didn't come from the church.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2013, 11:45:41 AM »
Then you need to read about the Ebionites, who did not come from the EO church.  Or the Nazarite Christians, that even EO Saints have quoted.  They didn't come from the church.

Ebionites I know, but what are Nazarite Christians? 

Also, we need to be careful when we say things like "They didn't come from the EO church".  Terms like EO, OO, RC, etc. are all post-schism terms developed to help clarify what groups one is talking about.  You won't find them in the second century, for example.  Back then, it was just "The Church".
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2013, 11:50:22 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

Ebionites are long dead. And Messianic Jews or Anabaptists are Protestants whatever they think about themselves.

OK...?  I mean what do you say to something like that?  Guess you know their faith better than them...   But then there are Nazarite Christians quoted by an EO saint.

That said http://www.wnae.org/authenticnaz.htm  There were many who believed in Christ as the messiah who are not protestants.

It's almost insane that this odd propaganda still exists in this day in age that Eastern Orthodoxy was "all there was", and "everything broke off from it", and is "the original".   Yes it's old and ancient, supported by powerful leaders & kings.  It's easy to claim the apostles as "yours"... Even to the point of showing succession to that apostle (which many have other than EO).  

I guess what ecumenism taught me is "many are willing to sell themselves out for a buck".   I don't take the common easy answer at face value.  It's easy to call another man's salvation "heretical" when its not like yours.   Everything is "made up" if its not EO.  But then everything that was "made up" that is EO, is legit.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #80 on: May 22, 2013, 11:58:43 AM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

I believe they know what their churches are better than what you do.

EDIT - The EO church has non-traditional beliefs for the Early Christian church.... See they practiced Jewish feasts, which are banned in EO.   Sorry, but the EO church is "not as traditional or original as you think".
Sorry yesh, you are Protestant. You can try to link yourself with the early church all you want but the truth is, you do what every other protestant denomination does. You stand at the buffet line, picking what you want, rejecting what you dont, and ignore evidence on how wrong you are then claim victory.

Anabaptists are protestant. They're free to call them selves restorationists or whatever else they want. The fact is, their beliefs were not taught by the Early Fathers, nor the APostles that ordained them.

As for the Ebionites, they were Gnostics and dealt with.

Ill say this. If you grab a Delorean and go back to the early church period, it will look far more recognizable to an EO than to an Anabaptist, or Mennonite or <insert here>.

PP

I beg to differ completely.  I promise you if you took that time machine back in time, you'd be stumped and wouldn't know what to do about Orthodoxy.   You'd see a bunch of Hebrew speaking Jews (who were now Christians), that celebrated Jewish feasts, the Sabbath, and did not use icons.   You'd see women who dressed modestly, did not wear costly array (such as gold), went without make up (as they detested Roman customs of women who did this), and wore head coverings.   The body rejected worldly wealth, held services in isolation (tombs and in homes (like the Amish)),  and lacked an enormous amount of the dogma.  The body confessed in front of the congregation (such as the Mennonites & Amish practice) and not to a priest. 

I think it would be fair to say that we would all be pretty stumped.  Especially when we say these people didn't glow or have halos.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2013, 12:23:10 PM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

Ebionites are long dead. And Messianic Jews or Anabaptists are Protestants whatever they think about themselves.

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic[1] religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s.[9] It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism


Many Messianic Jews say that they are a sect of Judaism that accepts the Messiah.  Not protestant.
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Offline biro

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2013, 12:28:49 PM »
Saying that you 'accept the Messiah' is not enough to make you 'not a Protestant.' Except for the use of Hebrew trappings, their beliefs are the same as those of many Protestant sects; a number of Messianic Jewish associations are actual owned and operated properties of Protestant denominations.

They are Christian sects which arose after the existence of the Orthodox and Catholic churches. They are not part of the Orthodox Church or the Roman or Eastern Catholic Church. Hence, they are Protestant.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2013, 02:09:42 PM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

I believe they know what their churches are better than what you do.

EDIT - The EO church has non-traditional beliefs for the Early Christian church.... See they practiced Jewish feasts, which are banned in EO.   Sorry, but the EO church is "not as traditional or original as you think".
Sorry yesh, you are Protestant. You can try to link yourself with the early church all you want but the truth is, you do what every other protestant denomination does. You stand at the buffet line, picking what you want, rejecting what you dont, and ignore evidence on how wrong you are then claim victory.

Anabaptists are protestant. They're free to call them selves restorationists or whatever else they want. The fact is, their beliefs were not taught by the Early Fathers, nor the APostles that ordained them.

As for the Ebionites, they were Gnostics and dealt with.

Ill say this. If you grab a Delorean and go back to the early church period, it will look far more recognizable to an EO than to an Anabaptist, or Mennonite or <insert here>.

PP

I beg to differ completely.  I promise you if you took that time machine back in time, you'd be stumped and wouldn't know what to do about Orthodoxy.   You'd see a bunch of Hebrew speaking Jews (who were now Christians), that celebrated Jewish feasts, the Sabbath, and did not use icons.   You'd see women who dressed modestly, did not wear costly array (such as gold), went without make up (as they detested Roman customs of women who did this), and wore head coverings.   The body rejected worldly wealth, held services in isolation (tombs and in homes (like the Amish)),  and lacked an enormous amount of the dogma.  The body confessed in front of the congregation (such as the Mennonites & Amish practice) and not to a priest. 

I think it would be fair to say that we would all be pretty stumped.  Especially when we say these people didn't glow or have halos.
Whatever makes you feel better. There's no use trying to refute you with actual historical fact since you've been warned about ignoring such things in the past. Just make sure you leave the buffet handle facing out for the next guy.
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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2013, 02:15:23 PM »
There were many who believed in Christ as the messiah who are not protestants.

There were. But the do not exist. There are 4 divisions of Christianity now: Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Nestorianism and Protestantism. Nothing more.

You'd see a bunch of Hebrew speaking Jews (who were now Christians), that celebrated Jewish feasts, the Sabbath, and did not use icons. 

There were also non-Jewish Christians.

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You'd see women who dressed modestly, did not wear costly array (such as gold), went without make up (as they detested Roman customs of women who did this), and wore head coverings.

Mt 6, 17.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2013, 02:21:44 PM »
I beg to differ completely.  I promise you if you took that time machine back in time, you'd be stumped and wouldn't know what to do about Orthodoxy.   You'd see a bunch of Hebrew speaking Jews (who were now Christians),

Your mindset is stuck in the Middle East.  Let's try another geographic location: Gaul.  Did they speak Hebrew in 2nd Century AD Gaul (now France)?

that celebrated Jewish feasts, the Sabbath, and did not use icons.

The Apostles and their successors introduced Hebrew, the Jewish feasts, the Sabbath and lack of icons to those who lived in Gaul?

You'd see women who dressed modestly, did not wear costly array (such as gold), went without make up (as they detested Roman customs of women who did this), and wore head coverings.

The women of Gaul dressed as you describe?

The body rejected worldly wealth, held services in isolation (tombs and in homes (like the Amish)),  and lacked an enormous amount of the dogma.  The body confessed in front of the congregation (such as the Mennonites & Amish practice) and not to a priest. 

I think it would be fair to say that we would all be pretty stumped.  Especially when we say these people didn't glow or have halos.

The united Church was present in Gaul and was the same in Gaul as in the rest of the known Christian world.  Your assertions would have to apply to the entire Church as it existed in the 2nd Century AD.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2013, 04:13:30 PM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

Ebionites are long dead. And Messianic Jews or Anabaptists are Protestants whatever they think about themselves.

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic[1] religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s.[9] It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism


Many Messianic Jews say that they are a sect of Judaism that accepts the Messiah.  Not protestant.

I can say I'm a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie too. But that doesn't mean I'm going to find Brad Pitt cooking supper when I get home tonight.

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2013, 04:57:27 PM »
Look this thing started as I supported the EO view on the Eucharist.  Turned into a hit piece because I have other issues with the church.

This thing started you wanted to know why some Protestants have non-traditional beliefs. You are also a Protestant with non-traditional beliefs so the discussion is legit.

Michal, if you think I'm a protestant, you need to brush up on the knowledge of Christian faiths.   There are many Christian faiths that are not "protestant".   Messianic Jews for instance.  Ebionites were not protestants.  Anabaptists are not protestant or Catholic. 

Ebionites are long dead. And Messianic Jews or Anabaptists are Protestants whatever they think about themselves.

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic[1] religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s.[9] It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of religious Jewish practice and terminology.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism


Many Messianic Jews say that they are a sect of Judaism that accepts the Messiah.  Not protestant.

I can say I'm a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie too. But that doesn't mean I'm going to find Brad Pitt cooking supper when I get home tonight.

Sayin' don't make it so.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2013, 12:05:50 AM »
OK...?  I mean what do you say to something like that?  Guess you know their faith better than them...   But then there are Nazarite Christians quoted by an EO saint.

That said http://www.wnae.org/authenticnaz.htm  There were many who believed in Christ as the messiah who are not protestants.

Your Nazirite Christians are from Hurst, Texas. 

Mine are a living community of Christians (at first "Orthodox", and much later divided into all the usual groups) tracing themselves to the first century missionary work of the Apostle Thomas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrani_(disambiguation)

We are Nasranis.  And we're not like anything from Hurst, Texas.     
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2013, 08:11:49 AM »
BTW I think the Ethiopians are mentioned somewhere......I dont think they spoke hebrew......
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: The body & blood of Christ is the Eucharist
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2013, 08:45:14 AM »
BTW I think the Ethiopians are mentioned somewhere......I dont think they spoke hebrew......

Most of the Jews didn't either. IIIRC the (distinctly Hellenised) Jewish diaspora outnumbered those in the Holy Land and even those there mainly spoke Aramaic.

James
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 08:45:37 AM by jmbejdl »
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