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Author Topic: orthodox sources replying to protestant end times preachers  (Read 1040 times) Average Rating: 0
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mabsoota
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Kyrie eleison


« on: May 15, 2013, 05:48:33 PM »

i have been trying to avoid this topic for at least 4 years, but it has now come to a head (have to hang out with some serious protestant theological types this weekend!)
 Shocked
anyone got any good sources?
(sensible replies only! i would love to stick my head in the sand or do all manner of humourous avoidance options, but actually i am having to learn the meanings of 'dispensationlist' etc. etc. despite not having an interest when i was a protestant.)

oh, and please pray for me too!
 Smiley
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Fabio Leite
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 05:58:14 PM »

For one, millenialism is denied in the Creed.

"And He shall return in Glory, to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end".

One return only, no one thousand years kingdom.

Also, although Revelation hints about the end of the world, it's much more a revelation about the spiritual nature of the world than about the end of the world. The Liturgy is an icon of that spiritual nature. The "end of the world" is just one of the sub-topics that "nature of the world" has.

The "tribulations" refer to the period from the first to the second coming. We are in it now. It's our lives. We all live in tribulations, specially if one tries to live a Christian life.

No one knows when the end of the world will be. Not even the Son. Anyone who claims to know is claiming knowledge beyond that of Christ Himself, and that's not wise.

There's no such a thing as rapture. The saints elevated to heaven are the saintly Christians who, between the first and second coming reach to the "Bosom of Abraham" in anticipation of the Resurrection.

Anything else you'd like to be covered?
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 07:27:51 PM »

^Awesome reply. Short, direct and firm.
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mabsoota
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2013, 02:55:33 AM »

thanks, brother.
i am interested in seeing (eg.) Bible verses that get misquoted by dispensationlist pre-tribulationists (try saying that without your teeth in!) and what the correct orthodox interpretation is.
to me, the orthodox beliefs (eg. quoted by fabio leite) are straightforward and correct, but i need to be able to reply to those people who think they have it all neatly sorted and packaged.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 01:48:21 PM »

Dispensational eschatology is one of the few things that they do not prooftext.  They have to take large chunks of Daniel and Revelations, then sprinkle in Thessalonians 2 and mix it all together. It is interesting to note that in order to get everything to fit, they take parts of each book and stitch it together into one grand timeline. It is far more productive to take a more socratic approach and just keep asking questions.  e.g. why is there no comprehensive timeline in the Bible, why is it split up amongst several books, how do you know what is overlap and what is part of the timeline, how do you know you are interpreting it correctly, why has this doctrine been around for only 150 years and really only in the US, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 01:51:15 PM »

There are several sects and churches with their own specific hyper-text combining the passages better to fit their beliefs. If you could bring the texts you are more in need of, we could then contextualize then in the Orthodox Tradition.

thanks, brother.
i am interested in seeing (eg.) Bible verses that get misquoted by dispensationlist pre-tribulationists (try saying that without your teeth in!) and what the correct orthodox interpretation is.
to me, the orthodox beliefs (eg. quoted by fabio leite) are straightforward and correct, but i need to be able to reply to those people who think they have it all neatly sorted and packaged.
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mabsoota
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 06:48:36 PM »

thanks, i can see you are right.
i did not need to try to follow a clear theological argument as the speaker we went to hear did not have a clear theological argument to respond to.
i will return to my previous stance of not making a big deal out of the end times.
 Smiley
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walter1234
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2013, 03:40:40 AM »

For one, millenialism is denied in the Creed.

"And He shall return in Glory, to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end".

One return only, no one thousand years kingdom.

Also, although Revelation hints about the end of the world, it's much more a revelation about the spiritual nature of the world than about the end of the world. The Liturgy is an icon of that spiritual nature. The "end of the world" is just one of the sub-topics that "nature of the world" has.

The "tribulations" refer to the period from the first to the second coming. We are in it now. It's our lives. We all live in tribulations, specially if one tries to live a Christian life.

No one knows when the end of the world will be. Not even the Son. Anyone who claims to know is claiming knowledge beyond that of Christ Himself, and that's not wise.

There's no such a thing as rapture. The saints elevated to heaven are the saintly Christians who, between the first and second coming reach to the "Bosom of Abraham" in anticipation of the Resurrection.

Anything else you'd like to be covered?

Rev20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



1.If there will be no one thousand year kindgom, how should we understand Rev 20:5-6?

2.And does Orthodox teach that everyone, including all righteouness and sinners, will be resurrected at the same time?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 03:46:49 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Kerdy
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2013, 04:49:14 AM »

I have spent much time (when I was a Baptist) studying this very thing and I will say it only takes a person to observe the world to see its relevance.  It is undeniable in the sense the “End of Times” will take place.  How, when, to what degree and who will be involved is debatable.  The fact it will happen is not. 
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 06:32:03 AM »

For one, millenialism is denied in the Creed.

"And He shall return in Glory, to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end".

One return only, no one thousand years kingdom.

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5     But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6     Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7     And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Psalm 2:9
You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
Psalm 2:8-10 (in Context) Psalm 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Revelation 2:27
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;
Revelation 2:26-28 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Revelation 12:5
she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
Revelation 12:4-6 (in Context) Revelation 12 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Revelation 19:15
From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Revelation 19:14-16 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations


Quote
Also, although Revelation hints about the end of the world, it's much more a revelation about the spiritual nature of the world than about the end of the world. The Liturgy is an icon of that spiritual nature. The "end of the world" is just one of the sub-topics that "nature of the world" has.

1     ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


Quote
The "tribulations" refer to the period from the first to the second coming. We are in it now. It's our lives. We all live in tribulations, specially if one tries to live a Christian life.

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [a]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Quote
No one knows when the end of the world will be. Not even the Son. Anyone who claims to know is claiming knowledge beyond that of Christ Himself, and that's not wise.


Matthew 16:2-4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 But He replied to them, Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a [c]sign; and a [d]sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.



Quote
There's no such a thing as rapture. The saints elevated to heaven are the saintly Christians who, between the first and second coming reach to the "Bosom of Abraham" in anticipation of the Resurrection.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [p]the perishable inherit [q]the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed.

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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 06:49:10 AM »

Dispensational eschatology is one of the few things that they do not prooftext. 
it is unclear what you mean by this. Do you mean eschatology which recognises that the current age is the Church Age etc?

Quote
They have to take large chunks of Daniel and Revelations, then sprinkle in Thessalonians 2 and mix it all together. It is interesting to note that in order to get everything to fit, they take parts of each book and stitch it together into one grand timeline.

it is a matter of observation that not all prophecy occurs in one place! So the nature of your objection is unclear. EG When Gabriel addresses Daniel regarding 'the end times', it clearly relates to the end times!


Quote
It is far more productive to take a more socratic approach and just keep asking questions. 

it would only be "more productive" if you ended up with a coherent narrative, which you don't.
Quote
e.g. why is there no comprehensive timeline in the Bible, why is it split up amongst several books,

because that is the nature of revelation.
Quote
how do you know what is overlap and what is part of the timeline, how do you know you are interpreting it correctly,

by placing yourself under the lordship of the Holy Spirit and assuming that God intended to communicate.

Quote
why has this doctrine been around for only 150 years and really only in the US, etc.
it hasn't and isn't but keep perpetuating the myth.
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2013, 07:04:48 AM »

No one knows when the end of the world will be. Not even the Son.
How come you can all of a sudden use this line against other christians but I can't use it when comes to the trinity.  Angry and you forgot the last part Son of man. not just the son.
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2013, 05:05:34 PM »

Quote
Dispensational eschatology is one of the few things that they do not prooftext.
it is unclear what you mean by this. Do you mean eschatology which recognises that the current age is the Church Age etc?

Yes

Quote
Quote
They have to take large chunks of Daniel and Revelations, then sprinkle in Thessalonians 2 and mix it all together. It is interesting to note that in order to get everything to fit, they take parts of each book and stitch it together into one grand timeline.

it is a matter of observation that not all prophecy occurs in one place! So the nature of your objection is unclear. EG When Gabriel addresses Daniel regarding 'the end times', it clearly relates to the end times!

I am merely expressing the difficulty of putting all the pieces together results in some interesting interpretations such as 2 and 3 second comings of Christ.


Quote
Quote
It is far more productive to take a more socratic approach and just keep asking questions.

it would only be "more productive" if you ended up with a coherent narrative, which you don't.

I don't have a coherent narrative?  I guess your right.  I don't need to know exactly what occurs in the end times.  It isn't an important part of my life.  I know that God wins, do I need to know what all the details are?

Quote
Quote
e.g. why is there no comprehensive timeline in the Bible, why is it split up amongst several books,

because that is the nature of revelation.

The nature of revelation is to be super confusing and disjointed to everyone except the the evangelical Christians who proclaim it to be really easy to figure out if only we listen to them?  Ok...  Roll Eyes

Quote
Quote
how do you know what is overlap and what is part of the timeline, how do you know you are interpreting it correctly,

by placing yourself under the lordship of the Holy Spirit and assuming that God intended to communicate.

As this is why there are only 40,000 denominations around, because they all agree to the interpretation.  Roll Eyes

I don't know about your Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit I have faith in does not lead to near as much confusion.

Quote
Quote
why has this doctrine been around for only 150 years and really only in the US, etc.
it hasn't and isn't but keep perpetuating the myth.

I'm sorry, I'll rephrase.  It is a doctrine that Daniel and St John taught but was mysteriously lost for 1850 yrs of Church history only to be heroically restored by St John Nelson Darby and the "true church" of Plymouth Brethren although I suspect that many of their other teachings you would find objectionable so the real true church didn't actually show up until St. Hal Lindsey wrote the new appendix to Scripture:  "The Late Great Planet Earth".  Roll Eyes

No, that doesn't sound like "Restorationist" Christianity a la Mormon/Jehovah Witness at all...  Tongue
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 05:06:50 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 12:38:24 PM »

It tells you a lot about a person when they talk about one particular part of the Bible. For instance, the particularly fire-and-brimstone preachers who like to talk about the fire and the war and disasters in Revelation. You never seem to hear any of them talk about the lion lying down with the lamb. Funny how they forget that we already know what happens and the Battle of Armageddon isn't some Tim La Haye fantasy mess. There's peace at the end. Why doesn't anybody want to talk about that?
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 03:43:07 PM »

It tells you a lot about a person when they talk about one particular part of the Bible. For instance, the particularly fire-and-brimstone preachers who like to talk about the fire and the war and disasters in Revelation. You never seem to hear any of them talk about the lion lying down with the lamb. Funny how they forget that we already know what happens and the Battle of Armageddon isn't some Tim La Haye fantasy mess. There's peace at the end. Why doesn't anybody want to talk about that?
Quite happy to discuss any part of what scripture tells us about end times. Which bit did you want to discuss?
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 04:24:48 PM »

Already did.
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