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Author Topic: Is the concept of "Tolerance" good, bad or ?...  (Read 2260 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: May 15, 2013, 03:32:35 PM »

So, I've never been comfortable with the policy of "tolerance" so I decided to look at arguments for and against to get a broader idea of what is meant.  There are some decent arguments for, I must say, but those who are against it have a better argument (even Penn Jillette doesn't like it).  I'm trying to find an Eastern Orthodox view on the matter but for now, this Protestant pastor sums it up nicely.  What are y'alls thoughts?


Why Tolerance Is Bad For Society
One of the most prevalent buzz words that we hear thrown around today is tolerance. Everyone seems to be hip on the idea of tolerance. From politicians to professors to pop stars, they are all dropping the tolerance bomb on anyone who has anything challenging to say, especially on the ethical types who dare to critique the culture.
People like the idea of tolerance because it sounds like it is a palatable “live and let live” approach to life. It’s a mentality that sells well in a postmodern world because it seems so inclusive and it sounds so accepting. Everyone wants to be tolerant of everyone else because apparently the worst thing you can be today is intolerant or judgmental.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For the rest of the essay:
http://kentdelhousaye.com/2012/01/12/why-tolerance-is-bad-for-society/
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 03:58:46 PM »

I don't know, but it's an entirely foreign concept to the Abrahamic religions. I like the idea of tolerance, but I find myself uneasy about it at the same time because of its role in the new atheism and ecumenical/James Rottneck trend that our society is progressing down.
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 04:00:48 PM »

As someone who ripped me off says,

Can you imagine Martin Luther King Jr. saying something like:

I have a dream!
One day white children will tolerate black children!

(no time to really do the schtick, but you get the point)

Tolerance is unChristian.

The word is love.
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 04:06:12 PM »

Depends on what you are tolerating and on your criteria to differentiate what is tolerable and what is not.

Nowadays, character is what defines it for me. Commiting mistakes is ok. Purposefully jeopardizing other people's lives without coercion is not.

That wouldn't work for governments though. IMO, social order should be the main preocupation of government (not the only one though).
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 04:09:33 PM »

As someone who ripped me off says,

Can you imagine Martin Luther King Jr. saying something like:

I have a dream!
One day white children will tolerate black children!

(no time to really do the schtick, but you get the point)

Tolerance is unChristian.

The word is love.
Absent love class war is the next best thing though. W
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 04:21:38 PM »

I'm trying to find an Eastern Orthodox view on the matter but for now

I'm trying to find Eastern Orthodox view on differential equations. Where can I start?

Coming from the area where open persecution of the Orthodox ended in late 1940' I have to say I have nothing against tolerance.
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 04:27:18 PM »

Probably here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pavel_Florensky or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Florensky

 Roll Eyes Smiley

I'm trying to find Eastern Orthodox view on differential equations. Where can I start?
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 04:35:13 PM »

You might want to check out this book, it's not orthodoxy, but written by a strong conservative Christian voice.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Intolerance-Tolerance-D-Carson/dp/0802869408/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2NWFAGUTQ8RJ&coliid=IFBZ87F36U0P3
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 04:43:37 PM »

What makes you think a "strong Conservative Christian voice " is somehow more congenial to orthodoxy than a liberal one?
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 04:45:40 PM »

What makes you think a "strong Conservative Christian voice " is somehow more congenial to orthodoxy than a liberal one?

Because it's typically the liberal Christians who are in favor of tolerance.
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 04:46:03 PM »

I quite like tolerance if it is based around mutual respect for people regardless of differing viewpoints. I quite dislike tolerance if it is based around the idea that if you don't agree with me, you "hate" me, and therefore should be sued under inclusophilic laws/shamed out of town/made to feel like less of a person than I am. I don't like tolerance that used as a pretext to silence viewpoints I don't like. I greatly dislike situations like this one.

Tolerance is not forced acceptance and obliteration of distinctions central to Christian thought regarding controversial issues (note that the supreme court case mentioned in the linked article, Lawrence v. Texas 2003, ruled that we cannot make a distinction between the orientation and the acts that define the orientation; so I guess every time I've heard someone say "being Homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in homosexual acts is", those people were potentially violating the law and can be persecuted for treating homosexuals compassionately but without compromise, based on this distinction?).
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 04:47:08 PM »

As someone who ripped me off says,

Can you imagine Martin Luther King Jr. saying something like:

I have a dream!
One day white children will tolerate black children!

(no time to really do the schtick, but you get the point)

Tolerance is unChristian.

The word is love.
Absent love class war is the next best thing though.

 Huh Huh
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 04:50:24 PM »

What makes you think a "strong Conservative Christian voice " is somehow more congenial to orthodoxy than a liberal one?

Because it's typically the liberal Christians who are in favor of tolerance.

Well, not just liberal Christians.  Liberals in general.  The "tolerance" that the author of the essay is speaking of and which dzheremi dislikes so much is really nothing more than a kind of ideological bullying.
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 05:01:19 PM »

What makes you think a "strong Conservative Christian voice " is somehow more congenial to orthodoxy than a liberal one?

Because it's typically the liberal Christians who are in favor of tolerance.

Yes, liberal people are liberal. That's quite an insightful conclusion.
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2013, 05:04:29 PM »

I quite like tolerance if it is based around mutual respect for people regardless of differing viewpoints.

 The essay I linked addressed this very outlook:
Quote
"People like the idea of tolerance because it sounds like it is a palatable “live and let live” approach to life. It’s a mentality that sells well in a postmodern world because it seems so inclusive and it sounds so accepting. Everyone wants to be tolerant of everyone else because apparently the worst thing you can be today is intolerant or judgmental.

Then he follows up with why it's a potentially dangerous idea:
Quote
Tolerance, though, has become a sort of trump card that people use to shut other people down if they have anything to say that they might deem as controversial or unpopular. And, it has often been used to silence religious groups and members of the faith community to keep them from speaking out against immoral behavior or wrong belief.
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2013, 05:14:15 PM »

What makes you think a "strong Conservative Christian voice " is somehow more congenial to orthodoxy than a liberal one?

Because it's typically the liberal Christians who are in favor of tolerance.

Yes, liberal people are liberal. That's quite an insightful conclusion.

 How many Polacks does it take to derail a thread with snarkasm?  Apparently only one.  Kiss
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2013, 05:30:24 PM »

How can one not be sarcastic if you read such silly posts?

You have your views. Not that they are right but fine. The problem is that you do not feel safe enough to stick to them (or you are not 100% convinced) so you seek something to affirm you.

Firstly, it shows you are not secure enough. Secondly - your petition is silly since there are not and there shouldn't be any "Eastern Orthodox views" on that.
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2013, 05:37:56 PM »

Well, if you define something as bad to begin with, of course you want to believe it's bad. Don't dilly-dally. It's like asking, do you still beat your wife?

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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2013, 05:38:59 PM »

I quite like tolerance if it is based around mutual respect for people regardless of differing viewpoints.

 The essay I linked addressed this very outlook:
Quote
"People like the idea of tolerance because it sounds like it is a palatable “live and let live” approach to life. It’s a mentality that sells well in a postmodern world because it seems so inclusive and it sounds so accepting. Everyone wants to be tolerant of everyone else because apparently the worst thing you can be today is intolerant or judgmental.

I'm not sure that is the same thing, though. I like it when we can say to people "I respect you as a person, despite our differing viewpoints." If we had to respect the content of the viewpoints themselves...well, I don't even know what that means. I don't respect anything and everything just because somebody says it, but I'll still let them say it, because I also want to be able to tell them how stupid it is in reply without being censured for not being "tolerant". Cheesy This is healthier, I think, than enforcing a warped kind of "tolerance" that does not actually allow for disagreement for fear that someone, somewhere might get their feelings hurt.
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2013, 05:41:28 PM »

I think that's pretty funny, because I'm sure you have never gotten the least bit tiffed when someone didn't put up with youRoll Eyes
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2013, 05:48:21 PM »

It's not about getting "tiffed" or not, Biro. It's about getting over it. I'm not going to sue you every time you make some snide remark in response to one of my posts. I am an adult, as are you, and it really does not bother me very much that you should respond as you do, beyond getting tiresome occasionally. If you cannot see the difference between this mindset and one that gets all up in arms about discrimination when they don't their way, then I don't know what to tell you.
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2013, 05:50:38 PM »

How can one not be sarcastic if you read such silly posts?

You have your views. Not that they are right but fine. The problem is that you do not feel safe enough to stick to them (or you are not 100% convinced) so you seek something to affirm you.

Firstly, it shows you are not secure enough. Secondly - your petition is silly since there are not and there shouldn't be any "Eastern Orthodox views" on that.

 Just because I ask others' opinions on a subject doesn't mean I'm 'insecure' with my position.  I know exactly what I believe and why I believe it.  But I also know that hearing others' views helps me grow as a person.  What I was hoping for (and why I asked specifically for the Eastern Orthodox view) is that maybe the topic had been addressed by one of EO's outspoken priests such as Fr. Thomas Hopko or Fr. John Whitford or maybe the topic had been addressed on Ancient Faith Radio or MyOCN.  I realize that the EO Church doesn't have an official position on 'tolerance'.   Rather than assuming that you know me or my motives, you'd to well to sit on your hands and maybe learn.  Furthermore, if you don't like a thread topic, rather than running your mouth and being rude, again move on or sit on your hands.
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »

Doesn't Fr. Josiah Trenham frequently touch on this issue, albeit in a roundabout way, in his podcasts? I'm thinking specifically of his lecture on Sharia Law in America (take home point: Modern America has been so inundated with backwards "tolerance" that we should not be surprised that Muslims want laws that stand for their religious convictions, since we've by and large stopped standing for our own, and the alternative of secularism, "tolerance" and anything goes mentality is undesirable to both serious Christians and Muslims). If I recall correctly, his introductory podcast on heresies also contained a bit on modern society's love affair with heresy, which certainly also falls under the idea of "tolerance" of opposing views (e.g., Orthodox Christianity is just the form that happened to win, maybe even by force; who are you to say that ____ [group] isn't right?, etc.).

Just a thought.
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2013, 06:09:33 PM »

Doesn't Fr. Josiah Trenham frequently touch on this issue

Bad choice. I've heard him talk five times?

Within those five times, I think he was able to form maybe a dozen sentences that had some basis in reality.

Good person to avoid.

Thanks for bringing up "Shariah law" in America. You've offered more than a few chuckles today.
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2013, 06:21:45 PM »

Depends on what is being tolerated, and how.
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 06:25:52 PM »

I never said he was great, Orthonorm, only that he's a person form the EO church that I've heard address this issue in some form or another. If you have someone better in mind, by all means share.
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 06:26:52 PM »

How can one not be sarcastic if you read such silly posts?

You have your views. Not that they are right but fine. The problem is that you do not feel safe enough to stick to them (or you are not 100% convinced) so you seek something to affirm you.

Firstly, it shows you are not secure enough. Secondly - your petition is silly since there are not and there shouldn't be any "Eastern Orthodox views" on that.

 Just because I ask others' opinions on a subject doesn't mean I'm 'insecure' with my position.  I know exactly what I believe and why I believe it.  But I also know that hearing others' views helps me grow as a person.  What I was hoping for (and why I asked specifically for the Eastern Orthodox view) is that maybe the topic had been addressed by one of EO's outspoken priests such as Fr. Thomas Hopko or Fr. John Whitford or maybe the topic had been addressed on Ancient Faith Radio or MyOCN.  I realize that the EO Church doesn't have an official position on 'tolerance'.   Rather than assuming that you know me or my motives, you'd to well to sit on your hands and maybe learn.  Furthermore, if you don't like a thread topic, rather than running your mouth and being rude, again move on or sit on your hands.

Gabriel,

I really think tolerance is an ugly ideological monster in our world but not for all the reasons the usual right wing reactionaries would use (see the Priest Jeremy posted about).

Tolerance is hardly a "modern" or "enlightenment" virtue, at least not in the way the would like to construct the argument.

It is "modern" and "enlightened" in so far as it functions to serve the fundamental basis for most of the social order of our time: capitalism.

When hate and prejudice were effective tool to take "capital" which was being under-leveraged across an ocean to pick cotton, that worked.

Well that doesn't work anymore. Tolerance allows people to live among each other as consumers and capital assets in the broadest sense without doing undo harm to on another and allows for the a diversification of the marketplace so that capital is able to flow more freely not bound up with anything worthwhile like decency or love or hate.

Love and hate are antithetical to the movement of capital. Both have been difficult to monetize and cause unpredictable changes within the market.

There is a lot to say here, but one thing is certain. Christ called no one to tolerance, but to love and hate. People might not like the last part and try to spin that part of the call, but nevertheless so it is.

Tolerance is not to care about the other. It is to let them be in a disaffected manner. Love and hate always bring us into the other with outcomes we can rarely project ahead of time, often to much pain and tedium.

The word for tolerance in the Bible is laodicean.

  
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 06:29:42 PM »

I never said he was great, Orthonorm, only that he's a person form the EO church that I've heard address this issue in some form or another. If you have someone better in mind, by all means share.

Someone?

Jesus should be enough.

I think Gabriel already mentioned Fr. Thom's ax to grind on the subject.

Really, I cannot see how anyone would ever walk away thinking tolerance is Christian. Or Jewish. Or Islamic. But that doesn't mean you fall into the standard conservative reactionary position.

The Children of Abraham reserve a place for the stranger and lavish them generosity.
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 07:14:07 PM »

How can one not be sarcastic if you read such silly posts?

You have your views. Not that they are right but fine. The problem is that you do not feel safe enough to stick to them (or you are not 100% convinced) so you seek something to affirm you.

Firstly, it shows you are not secure enough. Secondly - your petition is silly since there are not and there shouldn't be any "Eastern Orthodox views" on that.

 Just because I ask others' opinions on a subject doesn't mean I'm 'insecure' with my position.  I know exactly what I believe and why I believe it.  But I also know that hearing others' views helps me grow as a person.  What I was hoping for (and why I asked specifically for the Eastern Orthodox view) is that maybe the topic had been addressed by one of EO's outspoken priests such as Fr. Thomas Hopko or Fr. John Whitford or maybe the topic had been addressed on Ancient Faith Radio or MyOCN.  I realize that the EO Church doesn't have an official position on 'tolerance'.   Rather than assuming that you know me or my motives, you'd to well to sit on your hands and maybe learn.  Furthermore, if you don't like a thread topic, rather than running your mouth and being rude, again move on or sit on your hands.

Gabriel,

I really think tolerance is an ugly ideological monster in our world but not for all the reasons the usual right wing reactionaries would use (see the Priest Jeremy posted about).

Tolerance is hardly a "modern" or "enlightenment" virtue, at least not in the way the would like to construct the argument.

It is "modern" and "enlightened" in so far as it functions to serve the fundamental basis for most of the social order of our time: capitalism.

When hate and prejudice were effective tool to take "capital" which was being under-leveraged across an ocean to pick cotton, that worked.

Well that doesn't work anymore. Tolerance allows people to live among each other as consumers and capital assets in the broadest sense without doing undo harm to on another and allows for the a diversification of the marketplace so that capital is able to flow more freely not bound up with anything worthwhile like decency or love or hate.

Love and hate are antithetical to the movement of capital. Both have been difficult to monetize and cause unpredictable changes within the market.

There is a lot to say here, but one thing is certain. Christ called no one to tolerance, but to love and hate. People might not like the last part and try to spin that part of the call, but nevertheless so it is.

Tolerance is not to care about the other. It is to let them be in a disaffected manner. Love and hate always bring us into the other with outcomes we can rarely project ahead of time, often to much pain and tedium.

The word for tolerance in the Bible is laodicean.

  

 Interesting take, Orthonorm.  I've never heard 'tolerance' in terms of consumerism/capitalism.  I'll have to ponder that for awhile.  If you have more to say in that vein, I'd like to hear it either here or via PM.  I do agree with you re: tolerance as a way to not care about the other as well as the Biblical word for 'tolerance' being laodicean. 
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« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 07:29:16 PM »

I'm trying to find an Eastern Orthodox view on the matter but for now

I'm trying to find Eastern Orthodox view on differential equations. Where can I start?

Coming from the area where open persecution of the Orthodox ended in late 1940' I have to say I have nothing against tolerance.

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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2013, 09:23:34 PM »

How can one not be sarcastic if you read such silly posts?

You have your views. Not that they are right but fine. The problem is that you do not feel safe enough to stick to them (or you are not 100% convinced) so you seek something to affirm you.

Firstly, it shows you are not secure enough. Secondly - your petition is silly since there are not and there shouldn't be any "Eastern Orthodox views" on that.

 Just because I ask others' opinions on a subject doesn't mean I'm 'insecure' with my position.  I know exactly what I believe and why I believe it.  But I also know that hearing others' views helps me grow as a person.  What I was hoping for (and why I asked specifically for the Eastern Orthodox view) is that maybe the topic had been addressed by one of EO's outspoken priests such as Fr. Thomas Hopko or Fr. John Whitford or maybe the topic had been addressed on Ancient Faith Radio or MyOCN.  I realize that the EO Church doesn't have an official position on 'tolerance'.   Rather than assuming that you know me or my motives, you'd to well to sit on your hands and maybe learn.  Furthermore, if you don't like a thread topic, rather than running your mouth and being rude, again move on or sit on your hands.

This is an excellent question, Gabriel.  One I have been pondering, as of late.

So, there's tolerance, acceptance and promotion.

How far does one "tolerate" without offering support? 

It seems to me that many people hide behind the term "tolerance", while in fact they hold, support and promote views.

For example, Joe tolerates a particular sinful activity of Sam's.  This activity goes against the beliefs set forth by Joe's Church.  They live peacefully as neighbors.  It's all good.

Another example, Joe "tolerates" a particular sinful activity of of Sam's.   This activity goes against the beliefs set forth by Joe's Church.  Joe advertises and congratulates Sam for gaining statewide acceptance for his sinful cause.  Joe further teaches his children that said cause is great...and they ought to "tolerate" it.  Joe's child goes to school, and at school begins telling other children that this behavior of Sam's is really cool, and they tolerate it, as should the others. 

A few years later the majority of society tolerates and openly supports the activities of Sam.  Even many members of Joe's religion now are "tolerant".

They live peacefully as neighbors.  It's all good.

But, IS it all good?  At what point does tolerance become support of something inappropriate?  I think people hide behind the word, in order to seem kind and altruistic, while those who would stand against Sam's activity, appear harsh and judgmental.

This comes to mind:
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (Isaiah 5)

Yes, I speak from experience....and I realize that I have a way different definition of "tolerance" than many of my acquaintances. 

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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2013, 10:17:33 PM »

Thanks, Liza.

 So the reason I began thinking of the topic of 'tolerance' as of late is because of an experience I had with my wife and some of her fellow teachers.  We all went to dinner a few weeks ago and had a really good time.  But just before we all met, my wife disclosed that one of the female teachers is a homosexual and that her partner would be accompanying her.  I was a little worried that I would be uncomfortable, but they were so sweet, nice and just really great people.  Because she and my wife work together, I went out of my way to be friendly, but sincere.  Well now we've been invited to their house for a get-together.  I've never been in this situation before, so I hope y'all will understand what is probably a humorous situation to you.  Of course I want to be friendly, outgoing and loving towards them.  I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind how to be loving, but not seem accepting of their lifestyle.  If I go, am I tacitly approving?  What if we're invited over multiple times?  I told my wife that I would consider it- she thought my reticence was a bit homophobic.  I didn't think that was fair, but I certainly don't want to be a jerk.

 So there you have it.   
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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2013, 10:44:01 PM »

Thanks, Liza.

 So the reason I began thinking of the topic of 'tolerance' as of late is because of an experience I had with my wife and some of her fellow teachers.  We all went to dinner a few weeks ago and had a really good time.  But just before we all met, my wife disclosed that one of the female teachers is a homosexual and that her partner would be accompanying her.  I was a little worried that I would be uncomfortable, but they were so sweet, nice and just really great people.  Because she and my wife work together, I went out of my way to be friendly, but sincere.  Well now we've been invited to their house for a get-together.  I've never been in this situation before, so I hope y'all will understand what is probably a humorous situation to you.  Of course I want to be friendly, outgoing and loving towards them.  I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind how to be loving, but not seem accepting of their lifestyle.  If I go, am I tacitly approving?  What if we're invited over multiple times?  I told my wife that I would consider it- she thought my reticence was a bit homophobic.  I didn't think that was fair, but I certainly don't want to be a jerk.

 So there you have it.   

Hey, even if it is "homophobic" at least you are honest. How does anything change without being so?

People will argue likely by analogy which other people will say is a logical fallacy.

Frankly, it sounds like you have a great excuse to get out going to "get-togethers" and get some alone time. But that is just me. I would definitely feign homophobia if it got me outta such a situation.

Gabriel, I think analogies are helpful here frankly, after all what else to have to go on.

Would you attend the house of someone who knowing commits something you think is sinful but they do not which seems to no real immediate harm to others?

I could see not attending the binge party of a friend who's been sober.
I could see not attending a dinner with a friend and their adulterous partner who they wish to be kept secret from their spouse.
I could see not attending a celebration of a friend for a large monetary gain you both believe was less than scrupulous.

I could see attending (and do) events where people get drunk who probably oughtn't, yet they don't seem to care to stop or want to.
I could see attending an event to celebrate a monetary windfall which I find to be highly unethical but those involved do not. (Flipping a foreclosed home is what I have in mind.)
I could see attending various religious rites of passage.

Ethics and morals get confused. I would figure out where you stand ethically in some sense. Then take care of the specifics.

You find homosexuality to be a sin.
Your wife has a relationship which matters to her with some homosexuals.
Your presence or absence at their home is highly unlikely to alter what they do with their bodies one way or another.

For me it would come down, to again, if I really wanted to be dragged around anywhere when I am not working.

But for you, I would say this:

If it makes your wife happy, then go.
If they ask how you feel and think about their being gay (this is not an unlikely situation, especially if you get somewhat comfortable and they know you are "religious"), be honest. Most gays folks have heard worse than I can imagine anything you could possibly even mistakenly suggest. If you are being this circumspect, I doubt you will be mean or hurtful.

If they can't deal with your opinions, then so be it. In my experience though, honesty (not necessarily truthfulness) leads to interesting if uncomfortable places.

I get asked not infrequently tough questions about whatever. Rarely has being honest not opened the door more meaningful and interesting living. (I am thinking about race at the moment, something my city has a real problem with ignoring. Some black folks are taken back by my candor, but it has only a few times been a complete cul-de-sac.) Even if it starts with some hurt feelings, but I think if feelings aren't getting hurt at least some time, I am not sure the point of having them.

There are drugs made to keep from having that happen for better and worse.

Don't ever visit me, I am a some time apologetic and wholly inveterate maniac.

Best of luck!

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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 12:45:14 PM »

Another example, Joe "tolerates" a particular sinful activity of of Sam's.   This activity goes against the beliefs set forth by Joe's Church.  Joe advertises and congratulates Sam for gaining statewide acceptance for his sinful cause.  Joe further teaches his children that said cause is great...and they ought to "tolerate" it.  Joe's child goes to school, and at school begins telling other children that this behavior of Sam's is really cool, and they tolerate it, as should the others. 

Do you means like adoptions for non-Orthodox Christian couples who bring those children outisde the Church? Or weddings? Funerals?
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 12:54:47 PM »

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Thanks, Liza.

 So the reason I began thinking of the topic of 'tolerance' as of late is because of an experience I had with my wife and some of her fellow teachers.  We all went to dinner a few weeks ago and had a really good time.  But just before we all met, my wife disclosed that one of the female teachers is a homosexual and that her partner would be accompanying her.  I was a little worried that I would be uncomfortable, but they were so sweet, nice and just really great people.  Because she and my wife work together, I went out of my way to be friendly, but sincere.  Well now we've been invited to their house for a get-together.  I've never been in this situation before, so I hope y'all will understand what is probably a humorous situation to you.  Of course I want to be friendly, outgoing and loving towards them.  I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind how to be loving, but not seem accepting of their lifestyle.  If I go, am I tacitly approving?  What if we're invited over multiple times?  I told my wife that I would consider it- she thought my reticence was a bit homophobic.  I didn't think that was fair, but I certainly don't want to be a jerk.

 So there you have it.   
What kind of get together is it? Shocked

I wouldn't worry about it, except if you friendly and sincere, they might be unable to take that you don't fit the image of the Westboro disapproval of homosexual activity.
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 01:40:42 PM »

If they don't turn it into a blackmail situation it's ok.

Following the same logic of the gayzist(*) movement, it's as natural to feel uncomfortable with something as it is to feel attracted to it. If they say they can't be blamed for what they feel for each other, it's as much true that you can't be blamed about what you feel regarding them. Trying to "cure" you or "enlighten" you would be as bad as trying to cure or enlighten them.

In short, as long as you don't do anything to make them uncomfortable, they should not do anything that make you uncomfortable as well. If, on the other hand, they directly or indirectly imply that they have the privilege of making you uncomfortable and that it is your problem if you feel so, then it's blackmail and a good reason not to go back there.

(*) By gayzism I differentiate the leftist ideology of what gays should think it's good and humanitarian for them and that is often imposed by law and force. Since there are several right-wing gays or even apolitical gays who disagree with gay marriage and other absurds, gayzism is just the kidnapping of the image and voice of homossexuals for the liberal political interest.
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2013, 02:57:15 PM »

Another example, Joe "tolerates" a particular sinful activity of of Sam's.   This activity goes against the beliefs set forth by Joe's Church.  Joe advertises and congratulates Sam for gaining statewide acceptance for his sinful cause.  Joe further teaches his children that said cause is great...and they ought to "tolerate" it.  Joe's child goes to school, and at school begins telling other children that this behavior of Sam's is really cool, and they tolerate it, as should the others. 

Do you means like adoptions for non-Orthodox Christian couples who bring those children outisde the Church? Or weddings? Funerals?

I don't understand what you are asking.

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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2013, 03:08:36 PM »

If I tolerate you, it simply means that I will not seek to harm you even if I find you disgusting.  It does not mean that I have to embrace you or your ideologies.
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 03:22:53 PM »

If I tolerate you, it simply means that I will not seek to harm you even if I find you disgusting.  It does not mean that I have to embrace you or your ideologies.

How politically incorrect of you, Punch!!!  Grin    ^+100
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2013, 03:26:51 PM »

I think the implicit argument from left-liberals is that by opposing homosexuality on principle, you make gays feel uncomfortable, and this itself is intolerant. Of course, somehow the fact that gays make me uncomfortable merely by being gay doesn't count as intolerance towards me.
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2013, 03:50:01 PM »

(*) By gayzism I differentiate the leftist ideology of what gays should think it's good and humanitarian for them and that is often imposed by law and force. Since there are several right-wing gays or even apolitical gays who disagree with gay marriage and other absurds, gayzism is just the kidnapping of the image and voice of homossexuals for the liberal political interest.

<popcorn>

What is imposed on gays by law with force?
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2013, 04:03:15 PM »

Well, for whatever it's worth I've had talks with a lesbian friend of mine who considers herself very left-wing, and she described her vehement opposition to gay marriage (which surprised me, hence why I asked about it...I figured most gays would be all for it) in the following terms: For gay people to truly have equality with straight people, gays must be accepted on their own terms, not merely made to mirror the wider straight society and culture. So gay marriage is a sort of "civilizing" program on behalf of well-meaning but misguided straight people and their pet/token gay friends to sort of...I don't know...take the gayness out of being gay, or something? I didn't quite get it, but I'm not a radical queer feminist or whatever she calls herself. It was interesting, though. I could definitely relate to the idea of letting people decide for themselves what they find acceptable or important, because I could very much see how the success of gay marriage on a country-wide/worldwide scale could be used by those who want to claim that therefore there is no more discrimination against gay people, since after all they can marry now and hence have been voted in as acceptable people to at least that degree, by analogy to the common claim that racial issues in the USA are a thing of the past/anyone who brings them up is just being divisive/ungrateful/not looking forward...I mean...we've got a black president...sort of. What more could uppity people of all complexions and sexual impulses want? We said you're fine by us, so what's your problem? Roll Eyes

(Looked at from this perspective, I 100% agree with my lesbian friend.)
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2013, 04:04:19 PM »

I think the implicit argument from left-liberals is that by opposing homosexuality on principle, you make gays feel uncomfortable, and this itself is intolerant. Of course, somehow the fact that gays make me uncomfortable merely by being gay doesn't count as intolerance towards me.

That is because left-libtards are not into personal responsibility but into the blame everyone else game.  I cannot offend you.  I cannot make you uncomfortable.  You must choose to be offended or uncomfortable.  I can threaten to harm you, at which point I have crossed into the realm of intolerance.
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2013, 04:06:33 PM »

I am reminded of this sketch in Life of Brian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2013, 05:43:35 PM »

In my very long and sad experience 'Tolerance' is another social construct of the supposedly liberal Left, and in reality turns out to be advocated by people who, for reasons best known to themselves, appear to believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an enemy. Indeed I have coined the phrase, there are none more intolerant than a Tolerant Liberal.

Is tolerance a good thing? No. Loving your neighbour as yourself, and always to hold in your heart the Parable of the Good Samaritan.
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