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Author Topic: Did Christ pay the death penalty in the civil sense?  (Read 2346 times) Average Rating: 0
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thethinker
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« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2013, 07:29:53 AM »



Go back to the op. On what basis do Christians keep the death penalty for murder and not for adultery?


Our Lord Jesus Christ never said anything against the death penalty. Yes, he saved the woman from stoning, but that does not speak that He abolished death penalty.

So we should put adulterers to death today? I have found as I have challenged Christians on other boards that they who keep the death penalty for murder start out saying that the death penalty is for murder only. But when I push them they end up saying that all the sins punishable by death in the OT should still be punishable by death in the NT.

You are well on your way to supporting the revival Israel's old covenant theocracy!

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Marc 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

This was spoken BEFORE Christ put sin away. Nathan the prophet said to David, "Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

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Murderers, pedophiles and others violate other people's rights.

And God WILL punish them. So why would "double jeopardy" be necessary?

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Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Nobody carries the sword just for showing right? Especially in the time of the Apostles.

The method of execution was crucifixion or decapitation. Paul used the Greek word "MACHAIRA" in Romans 13:4, which was a short sword worn on the belt, a dagger. This is not the instrument used for decapitation, but was used as a terror to force obedience. It is like the sidearm policeman wear today. The sidearm policeman wear today is NOT for execution. They wear it to tell you that they may force you to obey their will if necessary.

Romans 13 says NOTHING about execution after the offender has been subdued and placed under arrest.

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In the whole New Testament, there is not anything that speaks against death penalty. Even with the triumph of Christianity, death penalty was not abolished, neither by the saints, neither by the Church. As other people here said, it is up to the secular authorities to deal with that.

God said that anyone who put the murderer Cain to death would be put to death. God was saying that He will not allow man to have the authority to execute men. Therefore, when the secular authorities execute men they are usurping God's authority.
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« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2013, 07:46:20 AM »



Go back to the op. On what basis do Christians keep the death penalty for murder and not for adultery?


Our Lord Jesus Christ never said anything against the death penalty. Yes, he saved the woman from stoning, but that does not speak that He abolished death penalty.

So we should put adulterers to death today? I have found as I have challenged Christians on other boards that they who keep the death penalty for murder start out saying that the death penalty is for murder only. But when I push them they end up saying that all the sins punishable by death in the OT should still be punishable by death in the NT.

You are well on your way to supporting the revival Israel's old covenant theocracy!

Quote
Marc 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

This was spoken BEFORE Christ put sin away. Nathan the prophet said to David, "Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

Quote
Murderers, pedophiles and others violate other people's rights.

And God WILL punish them. So why would "double jeopardy" be necessary?

Quote
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Nobody carries the sword just for showing right? Especially in the time of the Apostles.

The method of execution was crucifixion or decapitation. Paul used the Greek word "MACHAIRA" in Romans 13:4, which was a short sword worn on the belt, a dagger. This is not the instrument used for decapitation, but was used as a terror to force obedience. It is like the sidearm policeman wear today. The sidearm policeman wear today is NOT for execution. They wear it to tell you that they may force you to obey their will if necessary.

Romans 13 says NOTHING about execution after the offender has been subdued and placed under arrest.

Quote
In the whole New Testament, there is not anything that speaks against death penalty. Even with the triumph of Christianity, death penalty was not abolished, neither by the saints, neither by the Church. As other people here said, it is up to the secular authorities to deal with that.

God said that anyone who put the murderer Cain to death would be put to death. God was saying that He will not allow man to have the authority to execute men. Therefore, when the secular authorities execute men they are usurping God's authority.

Why don't you just go and start your own Church since you do not want to believe what this one teaches.  What do you think, that you are smarter than 2000 years of the Body of Christ?  That is the difference between one who "thinks" and one who "believes".
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thethinker
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« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2013, 10:08:06 AM »

What do you think, that you are smarter than 2000 years of the Body of Christ?

The Catholic Church denies the death penalty. What planet are you from again?  Huh
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thethinker
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« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2013, 01:43:10 PM »

Why don't you just go and start your own Church since you do not want to believe what this one teaches.

This is the Orthodox-Other forum, or is it not?
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« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2013, 07:16:14 PM »

What do you think, that you are smarter than 2000 years of the Body of Christ?

The Catholic Church denies the death penalty. What planet are you from again?  Huh

I do not recognize the atheist followers of the Pope as Orthodox. 
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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2013, 07:16:58 PM »

Why don't you just go and start your own Church since you do not want to believe what this one teaches.

This is the Orthodox-Other forum, or is it not?

My question has to do with your beliefs, not the forum you are on.  So, are you admitting that you have formed your own church?
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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2013, 07:17:12 PM »

What do you think, that you are smarter than 2000 years of the Body of Christ?

The Catholic Church denies the death penalty. What planet are you from again?  Huh

I do not recognize the atheist followers of the Pope as Orthodox. 

Uhhh, what?  Huh
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DuxI
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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2013, 07:30:38 PM »





So we should put adulterers to death today? I have found as I have challenged Christians on other boards that they who keep the death penalty for murder start out saying that the death penalty is for murder only. But when I push them they end up saying that all the sins punishable by death in the OT should still be punishable by death in the NT.

You are well on your way to supporting the revival Israel's old covenant theocracy!

Did I say that we should put adulterers to death? I said that Our Lord Jesus Christ never preached against death sentence itself, I did not say that He did not bring the New Testament which is different than the covenant theocracy. Our Lord never said anything in civil sense, except that we are under the New Testament, not the Old. He never preached for or against punishments in civil sense. So, if you think that NT exclusively speaks about or for punishments, than you are the one that is  preaching of theocracy.


Marc 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

This was spoken BEFORE Christ put sin away. Nathan the prophet said to David, "Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

Nathan the prophet, said that to David because David repented deeply for his sins. . Without that repentance, David's sins would not have been forgiven. Even when Christ put sin away, should I remember what happened to the couple that lied Peter? They died instantly. Does that mean that Peter meant something of the death sentence in civil sense? Of course not.


And God WILL punish them. So why would "double jeopardy" be necessary?

God will punish them, that is true, but God, through the Apostle Paul said what i quoted about authority. And that authority is given by God. And authority punishes. Simple as that.


The method of execution was crucifixion or decapitation. Paul used the Greek word "MACHAIRA" in Romans 13:4, which was a short sword worn on the belt, a dagger. This is not the instrument used for decapitation, but was used as a terror to force obedience. It is like the sidearm policeman wear today. The sidearm policeman wear today is NOT for execution. They wear it to tell you that they may force you to obey their will if necessary.

So, it was used for punishment, right? So, as I said above, the authority has the right to punish, and that authority is given by God. In the NT, as I many times said, you will not find anything about death penalty in civil sense of the word. The NT says that the authority is punishing. That is all.

Romans 13 says NOTHING about execution after the offender has been subdued and placed under arrest.

God said that anyone who put the murderer Cain to death would be put to death. God was saying that He will not allow man to have the authority to execute men. Therefore, when the secular authorities execute men they are usurping God's authority.


Again, in the NT you will never find anything that prohibits or allows death penalty. But, as I said, in the NT it is saidd that Christians should respect authority, and at that time, the Roman law had death penalty, and after the Triumph of Christianity, no one spoke against it, because Christianity did not deal with civil punishments. That was left to the authorities given by God.

Cain is even before the Law is given to Moses.
And in many other parts of the OT God commands the people to put murderers, blashpemers and others to death, so the example you give of Cain does not fit in the point you want to make.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 07:36:24 PM by DuxI » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2013, 07:37:19 PM »

What do you think, that you are smarter than 2000 years of the Body of Christ?

The Catholic Church denies the death penalty. What planet are you from again?  Huh

Yes, it does now.
In the past, it did not preach against it. Search in the historical sources.  Wink
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thethinker
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« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2013, 07:43:23 PM »

I do not recognize the atheist followers of the Pope as Orthodox. 

From an article title "Orthodoxy and Capital Punishment,"

Just a reminder that there is no single head that speaks for the Orthodox Church and each bishop is entitled to interpret church teaching and Scripture as he sees fit for his particular jurisdiction. However both the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in North and South America as well as the Orthodox Church in America have statements that condemn capital punishment. For this article I will be using the book, Contemporary Moral Issues Facing the Orthodox Christian written by Fr. Stanley Harakas. Fr. Harakas is a significant resource of Orthodox Ethics in the United States today.

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/09/orthodoxy-and-capital-punishment.html

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« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2013, 10:39:28 PM »

On what basis do Christians keep the death penalty for murder and not for adultery? And why is there "double jeopardy" for murder?

Sin is a transgression of God's law, the wages of sin is death, and to transgress God's law is to reject God Himself as the giver of the law. God does not wish that any should perish. This is why he offers us repentance as a means of returning to Him to serve Him as we are intended to have Him as the source of our life. God's laws tell us how we are to live to reflect someone made in the image and likeness of God, and they let us know when we fall short of living according to the God in Whom we live and move and have our very existence.

Human laws are intended for the purpose of maintaining order in society.

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If you seek the death any penalty for another you deny that you are worthy of death that same penalty. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science friend.

Why limit your abolition of punishment to just the death penalty?

Does a denial of a punishment for someone else committing a crime imply that one would find themselves unworthy of receiving that same punishment if they were to commit that same crime?
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« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2013, 11:27:20 PM »

I do not recognize the atheist followers of the Pope as Orthodox. 

From an article title "Orthodoxy and Capital Punishment,"

Just a reminder that there is no single head that speaks for the Orthodox Church and each bishop is entitled to interpret church teaching and Scripture as he sees fit for his particular jurisdiction. However both the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in North and South America as well as the Orthodox Church in America have statements that condemn capital punishment. For this article I will be using the book, Contemporary Moral Issues Facing the Orthodox Christian written by Fr. Stanley Harakas. Fr. Harakas is a significant resource of Orthodox Ethics in the United States today.

http://www.frpeterpreble.com/2010/09/orthodoxy-and-capital-punishment.html

I think that Punch spiked his punch too much and now it has too much "punch." Grin

Yes, the history of the Greeks in America is the full representation of the 2000 year history of the Orthodox Church.  With every post you make yourself seem a bigger idiot.
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« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2013, 11:28:23 PM »

What do you think, that you are smarter than 2000 years of the Body of Christ?

The Catholic Church denies the death penalty. What planet are you from again?  Huh

I do not recognize the atheist followers of the Pope as Orthodox. 

Uhhh, what?  Huh
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thethinker
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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2013, 03:58:56 PM »

Did I say that we should put adulterers to death?

You did not say it outright. You inferred it.

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Our Lord never said anything in civil sense, except that we are under the New Testament, not the Old.

What many call the "civil sense"  and the "spiritual sense" I am calling non-capital offences and capital offences. Under the old covenant non-capital offences were covered by the animal sacrifices. But there were no sacrifices for capital offences. They were punishable by death. If the old is done away, then the animal sacrifices are done away for non-capital offences, and the death penalty is done away for capital offences. Sexual immorality, breaking the sabbath, cursing father and mother, and murder are all still capital offences. It's just that the death of Christ took away the death penalty.

Nathan the prophet said to David,

"Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

Jesus put away our sin. So how can we be put to death? He was put to death in our stead!

Quote
Nathan the prophet, said that to David because David repented deeply for his sins. . Without that repentance, David's sins would not have been forgiven.

Okay, so if a murderer repents of his sin he should NOT be put to death because God's dealings with David was a token of how He deals with His children under the new covenant.

Quote
Even when Christ put sin away, should I remember what happened to the couple that lied Peter? They died instantly. Does that mean that Peter meant something of the death sentence in civil sense? Of course not.

God Himself took the lives of that couple! This CANNOT be used as a "proof text" to show that God has communicated the power to the secular authorities to put men to death. Come on!

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God will punish them, that is true, but God, through the Apostle Paul said what i quoted about authority. And that authority is given by God. And authority punishes. Simple as that.

You did not answer why "double jeopardy" is necessary. If God will punish pedophiles and murderers, then why do they have be punished by death and then punished again? Putting then in prison is sufficient. This would be equivalent to God's pre-Mosaic method which was banishment.

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So, it was used for punishment, right?

No! The dagger was NOT for punishment. It corresponded to the modern policeman's sidearm which is used ONLY to PREVENT crime though this may involve the use of force. You are confusing necessary force with punishment. It is NOT punishment. It is NOT execution. You have no proof from Romans 13 that the secular authorities have the authority to EXECUTE men.

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Again, in the NT you will never find anything that prohibits or allows death penalty.

The death penalty is prohibited in the NT by a fortiori. Peter says that we have entered into the "sure mercies of David." Nathan the prophet said, "Your sin is put away, you shall not die." Christ put our sin away. Therefore, we shall not die.

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Cain is even before the Law is given to Moses.

Exactly! I am glad you said this. God used banishment before the law of Moses. Now Moses has been done away! So we should banish the offender by putting him into prison.

Quote
And in many other parts of the OT God commands the people to put murderers, blashpemers and others to death, so the example you give of Cain does not fit in the point you want to make.

Oh, but Cain does fit my point perfectly well. Before Moses God banished murderers. Moses has been done away. Therefore, banishment would be the only biblical way.
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« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2013, 04:20:46 PM »

http://lexchristianorum.blogspot.com/2012/03/church-fathers-and-capital-punishment_03.html
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« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2013, 07:41:37 PM »


There is NO right of the state to exercise capital punishment after Christ was put to death for all non-capital and all capital offences . Furthermore, innocent men have been put to death under the misguided doctrine that the state has such power.

Nathan the prophet to David: "Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

Christ put away sin. They shall NOT be put to death.
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« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2013, 07:45:44 PM »

I don't think there is any legitimate argument that can be made why government can't execute those they feel should be executed.  There are, however, many good argument why they shouldn't execute.  The foremost being mercy and forgiveness.  I would never question a government's legitimacy for executing those who break the law, but I would call for mercy.
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« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2013, 08:21:53 PM »

What about the story Ananias and Saphira?

They were put to death for lieing.
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« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2013, 08:54:25 PM »

What about the story Ananias and Saphira?

They were put to death for lieing.

Not by the government though.  That was directly by God.  I think He gets pick on which lives He wants to end.
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« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2013, 07:18:35 AM »


You did not say it outright. You inferred it.

I did not infer anything! I said my point about the New Testament and penalties many times, read carefully.

What many call the "civil sense"  and the "spiritual sense" I am calling non-capital offences and capital offences. Under the old covenant non-capital offences were covered by the animal sacrifices. But there were no sacrifices for capital offences. They were punishable by death. If the old is done away, then the animal sacrifices are done away for non-capital offences, and the death penalty is done away for capital offences. Sexual immorality, breaking the sabbath, cursing father and mother, and murder are all still capital offences. It's just that the death of Christ took away the death penalty.

Well, then you have the problem from differing civil and spiritual, not we. In other words, for the sins that you call capital offences, the authorities do not always see as crime. So, the state does not interfere if parents and children do not love each other. And the NT, unlike the law, does not contain punishments that need to be prescribed for everything that God considers sin. Unlike the OT, the NT is not a law that organizes the political life of the Christians. Paul, for example, respected the Roman law. Even later, the Church, respected the Roman law. For example in the dealing with the Donatists. That is why lawyers say that the NT never says anything about putting away death penalty or not.


Nathan the prophet said to David,

"Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

Yes, God forgave David, but many others died. David did not die, but many died. The forgiveness to David  Do you know why? Because David repented bitterly for his sins. But, that did not save his baby. The baby died as a punishment. Should I mention other examples?


Jesus put away our sin. So how can we be put to death? He was put to death in our stead!

That does not mean that we can not sin, or that we are saved even if we sin! 


Okay, so if a murderer repents of his sin he should NOT be put to death because God's dealings with David was a token of how He deals with His children under the new covenant.

From what I see you are not a lawyer. If you were, you would have known that if a person repents sincerely, or as the lawyers call it "effective repentance", the person has the possibility to receive lesser punishment for his crimes. But there are cases when a person DOES NOT REPENT, even before court. That is the case many times with recidivists, like pedophiles, murderers, rapists etc.


You did not answer why "double jeopardy" is necessary. If God will punish pedophiles and murderers, then why do they have be punished by death and then punished again? Putting then in prison is sufficient. This would be equivalent to God's pre-Mosaic method which was banishment.

You compare God's punishment, which can be eternal, with the punishment by the authorities, which is temporal?! Even if a person is sentenced to death, that person can repent sincerely! But as i said in many times, many people does not repent!


No! The dagger was NOT for punishment. It corresponded to the modern policeman's sidearm which is used ONLY to PREVENT crime though this may involve the use of force. You are confusing necessary force with punishment. It is NOT punishment. It is NOT execution. You have no proof from Romans 13 that the secular authorities have the authority to EXECUTE men.


The police today sometimes uses the gun too, do not forget that! Should i post examples here for something that obvious? In many cases the police executes people that hold hostages or do other similar things. Is that murder? Of course it is not murder.
From Romans 13, as i said many times, there is nothing that approves or disapproves death penalty, but from Romans 13 we can see that we should respect authority, just as Paul says. And Paul respected the Roman authorities and the Roman law. He never preached against that law, which later was adopted also by the Christians.


The death penalty is prohibited in the NT by a fortiori. Peter says that we have entered into the "sure mercies of David." Nathan the prophet said, "Your sin is put away, you shall not die." Christ put our sin away. Therefore, we shall not die.

Peter is speaking about spiritual things, not secular things. In the Epistles written by Peter you will not find anything that refers as to how the state should be organized, what laws are needed etc. In that Epistles there is nothing secular.


Exactly! I am glad you said this. God used banishment before the law of Moses. Now Moses has been done away! So we should banish the offender by putting him into prison.

Wrong! I said just to see where you will lead the discussion, and you ended in you negating your own point about the punishments before Moses. You know why? Because even before the law of Moses death penalty was used. What would have happened to Tamar, when she slept with Judas? She would have been burnt alive if she did not show the proofs! What happened to those the person that took the daughter of Jacob and slept with her? He was killed also. Did God view that as sin? From the Old Testament, we see that God did not object to that.




Oh, but Cain does fit my point perfectly well. Before Moses God banished murderers. Moses has been done away. Therefore, banishment would be the only biblical way.

But the case of Tamar and the case of the daughter of Jacob shows that the example does not fit your point, and from what we can see, the period before Moses does not support your thesis. You ended calling on example that negates your own point  Wink
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« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2013, 09:45:58 PM »

What about the story Ananias and Saphira?

They were put to death for lieing.
Not by the government though.  That was directly by God.  I think He gets pick on which lives He wants to end.

I believe Peter gave the decree.
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2013, 09:51:20 PM »

What about the story Ananias and Saphira?

They were put to death for lieing.
Not by the government though.  That was directly by God.  I think He gets pick on which lives He wants to end.

I believe Peter gave the decree.

Hmm, the chicken or the egg question.  Did they die because Peter decreed it or did Peter decree it because he knew God was going to smite them?
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2013, 10:17:03 PM »

Hmm, the chicken or the egg question.  Did they die because Peter decreed it or did Peter decree it because he knew God was going to smite them?

Either way, it's the death penalty, and coming from within the Church. Besides, that's not the point. The fact is that if someone is going to deny that any penalty should be avoided based on the ideas that Christ was given that same sentence and support for that penalty implies one being to good top receive that same penalty, then all penalties for all crimes would have to be voided.
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« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2013, 07:58:24 PM »

What about the story Ananias and Saphira?

They were put to death for lieing.

Not exactly. God killed them.
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« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2013, 05:42:17 PM »

What about the story Ananias and Saphira?

They were put to death for lieing.
Not by the government though.  That was directly by God.  I think He gets pick on which lives He wants to end.

I believe Peter gave the decree.
Ananias simply died (Acts 5:5); Peter knew Saphira would die (5:9), but I'm not sure where you're getting this was a "decree" as opposed to, say, a prophetic word; can you explain?
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« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2013, 07:45:23 PM »

Ananias simply died (Acts 5:5); Peter knew Saphira would die (5:9), but I'm not sure where you're getting this was a "decree" as opposed to, say, a prophetic word; can you explain?

I was out of line for  bringing it up in the first place. The question was whether or not the death penalty was negated in a civil sense, so no matter how you answer this question, it doesn't answer the original question.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2013, 08:11:43 PM »

Quote from: Punch link=topic=51490.msg925951#msg925951 date=136902



Uhhh, what?  Huh
[/quote
Blessed are the peacemakers, is what he said in the Gospels that you do not understand, not referring to Samuel Colt , the one who profits from war.

All Christians are sinners, makes no difference to God which denomination.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 08:16:40 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
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