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Author Topic: Did Christ pay the death penalty in the civil sense?  (Read 2898 times) Average Rating: 0
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thethinker
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« on: May 15, 2013, 02:11:05 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 02:45:20 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 06:35:04 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.

Do you believe in the death penalty for murder?
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 09:24:32 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.

Do you believe in the death penalty for murder?

I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list. On the other hand, I also believe in guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt", not "he's black so he must be guilty".  I also believe in mitigating factors.  So, there may be some "murderers" that I would not execute.  On the other hand, I would probably execute a repeat drunk driver before he does end up killing someone.  And you may not want to hear what I would do to a rapist or child molester, particularly not on a Christian forum.  My views on these things tend to be a bit more complex than those of the average activist. 
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 12:39:26 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.

Do you believe in the death penalty for murder?

I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list.

Then adulterers should also be put to death.
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 01:17:42 PM »

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

I am a bit up in the air on that one. First - hard to prove.  Second - seldomly only one person's complete fault.  I certainly do not believe in "no fault" divorce and think that the guilty party should recieve nothing.  Death is probably a bit extreme, not that I would shed any tears over it.  I am not sure that I would consider the agrieved spouse's execution of the guilty one to be murder.
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2013, 01:37:29 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.

Do you believe in the death penalty for murder?

I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list.

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

How is adultery a violent crime?
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2013, 01:57:17 PM »

It is not.  But to be fair, he was responding to my post, and I did not really limit my beliefs on the application of the death penalty to violent crime.  He may just be seeing how far I would go.

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.

Do you believe in the death penalty for murder?

I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list.

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

How is adultery a violent crime?
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 02:00:49 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Depends on your view of mercy and death.  I am not a big fan of crucifixion or stoning.  But I would rather take a bullet to the head than to spend the rest of my life in a cage.

Do you believe in the death penalty for murder?

I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list.

Then adulterers should also be put to death.
Should David the psalmist/prophet and king have been executed rather than, through the prophet Nathan, forgiven?

He was an adulterer and a murderer.
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 02:02:17 PM »

Quote
I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list.

I'm confused, you said you believe in it for most violent crime here.  How does adultery fit in with your statement?

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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 02:09:42 PM »

Quote
I believe in the death penalty for most violent crime, so murder is pretty high on my list.
I'm confused, you said you believe in it for most violent crime here.  How does adultery fit in with your statement?

See my earlier post.  I do not see the word "only" anywhere in my quoted post.  The only modifier for "violent crime" is the word "most".  Perhaps I should have written:

I believe in the death penalty for most, but not limited to only, violent crime.
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 02:10:49 PM »

Ok, I understand a bit better now.  Sorry, I was having a dense moment.

Carry on.  Tongue
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 02:25:15 PM »

Ok, I understand a bit better now.  Sorry, I was having a dense moment.

Carry on.  Tongue

Don't worry.  It is a very complicated subject for which there are no simple formulas or answers.   
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 02:45:06 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

The question is confusing. Are you saying that Christ's death entails that we abolish the death penalty now? Or are you wondering whether Christ was put to death under civil law? I believe for the latter the answer is no: Christ was convicted of blasphemy by a religious court, and the Roman authorities carried the penalty out on behalf of the religious authorities.

For the former, I don't see the connection at all. You may as well argue that all civil law should be abolished, since as Christians we now live under grace.
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 07:01:02 PM »

How is adultery a violent crime?

Adultery was a CAPITAL crime along with murder and sabbath breaking. So if sabbath breaking and adultery are no longer punishable by death, then murder should no longer punishable by death? It seems to me that Christians have arbitrarily decided that murder is still punishable by death.

James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding both murder and adultery.
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 07:06:19 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

The question is confusing. Are you saying that Christ's death entails that we abolish the death penalty now? Or are you wondering whether Christ was put to death under civil law? I believe for the latter the answer is no: Christ was convicted of blasphemy by a religious court, and the Roman authorities carried the penalty out on behalf of the religious authorities.

For the former, I don't see the connection at all. You may as well argue that all civil law should be abolished, since as Christians we now live under grace.

Yes, Christ's death entails that the death penalty be altogether abolished. We have received the "sure mercies of David." Note that it is "mercies" (plural) we have received. David committed adultery and murder which were both punishable by death. But God showed him mercies (plural), that is, God did not require the death penalty on both the civil and spiritual levels. 

We all deserve the death penalty! But we have received the "sure mercies of David."
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 07:58:34 PM »

How is adultery a violent crime?

Adultery was a CAPITAL crime along with murder and sabbath breaking. So if sabbath breaking and adultery are no longer punishable by death, then murder should no longer punishable by death? It seems to me that Christians have arbitrarily decided that murder is still punishable by death.

James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding both murder and adultery.

Well slap me with a wet noodle and drive a truck up my bootie!  Every now and then someone posts something that causes me to question the logic of my beliefs.  Thank you for this.  Now I have something to think about this weekend.
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 07:59:32 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

The question is confusing. Are you saying that Christ's death entails that we abolish the death penalty now? Or are you wondering whether Christ was put to death under civil law? I believe for the latter the answer is no: Christ was convicted of blasphemy by a religious court, and the Roman authorities carried the penalty out on behalf of the religious authorities.

For the former, I don't see the connection at all. You may as well argue that all civil law should be abolished, since as Christians we now live under grace.

Yes, Christ's death entails that the death penalty be altogether abolished. We have received the "sure mercies of David." Note that it is "mercies" (plural) we have received. David committed adultery and murder which were both punishable by death. But God showed him mercies (plural), that is, God did not require the death penalty on both the civil and spiritual levels. 

We all deserve the death penalty! But we have received the "sure mercies of David."

For some, death is a mercy.
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2013, 08:17:42 PM »

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

I am a bit up in the air on that one. First - hard to prove.  Second - seldomly only one person's complete fault.  I certainly do not believe in "no fault" divorce and think that the guilty party should recieve nothing.  Death is probably a bit extreme, not that I would shed any tears over it.  I am not sure that I would consider the agrieved spouse's execution of the guilty one to be murder.

You seem to believe yourself innocent, You are the one who being without sin would have stoned the whore in John 8:7.

◄  Matthew 5:28  ►

New International Version (©2011)
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I don't know any men who have not done this.

And I know of no one who was never angry at another, at least for a short while. So I am a murderer and Adulterer in God's book, But he still loves me.

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sisterbc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2013, 10:16:38 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Do you view penalties as being imposed for the purpose of keeping order in society or some sort of "revenge"?
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2013, 10:54:37 PM »

How is adultery a violent crime?

Adultery was a CAPITAL crime along with murder and sabbath breaking. So if sabbath breaking and adultery are no longer punishable by death, then murder should no longer punishable by death? It seems to me that Christians have arbitrarily decided that murder is still punishable by death.

James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding both murder and adultery.

LOL. Christians haven't arbitrarily decided anything. Capital punishment changed after the arrival of Christian emperors--no more crucifixions, for example. But it was still employed in the Roman Empire. Under St. Vladimir of Kiev, however, it was abolished. Also, the Hasmonean Jewish kingdom before Christ abolished the death penalty. The pagan Vikings did not normally use a death penalty for murder, bur favored fines.
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2013, 10:56:02 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

The question is confusing. Are you saying that Christ's death entails that we abolish the death penalty now? Or are you wondering whether Christ was put to death under civil law? I believe for the latter the answer is no: Christ was convicted of blasphemy by a religious court, and the Roman authorities carried the penalty out on behalf of the religious authorities.

For the former, I don't see the connection at all. You may as well argue that all civil law should be abolished, since as Christians we now live under grace.

Yes, Christ's death entails that the death penalty be altogether abolished. We have received the "sure mercies of David." Note that it is "mercies" (plural) we have received. David committed adultery and murder which were both punishable by death. But God showed him mercies (plural), that is, God did not require the death penalty on both the civil and spiritual levels. 

We all deserve the death penalty! But we have received the "sure mercies of David."

You are going where no one has gone before, at least in the first 1500 years of Christianity, mixing civil and spiritual matters and illustrating a confusion over them both.
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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2013, 11:25:50 PM »

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

I am a bit up in the air on that one. First - hard to prove.  Second - seldomly only one person's complete fault.  I certainly do not believe in "no fault" divorce and think that the guilty party should recieve nothing.  Death is probably a bit extreme, not that I would shed any tears over it.  I am not sure that I would consider the agrieved spouse's execution of the guilty one to be murder.

You seem to believe yourself innocent, You are the one who being without sin would have stoned the whore in John 8:7.

◄  Matthew 5:28  ►

New International Version (©2011)
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I don't know any men who have not done this.

And I know of no one who was never angry at another, at least for a short while. So I am a murderer and Adulterer in God's book, But he still loves me.

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sisterbc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

No.  I am not a hypocrite and do not see myself as any better.  So I do not make sanctimonious monikers for myself, which show no humility but only expose the true Pride.  And whether or not God loves me is of little value in this argument.  Justice will be served in one way or another, unless you believe in the cheep Grace of the Protestants.  What we suffer here on Earth prevents suffering in the next world.  I believe that often we perform an act of mercy when we remove someone from this world.  If I knew that I would be simply shot, I would not fear paying for what I have done in this world. I would have cast the first stone.  Not because I was without sin, but so that I could have been struck dead for my own sins.  Cowards that use the New Testament to kill their own consciences will never understand that.  Those that repent will be forgiven, but that does not mean that they escape temporal punishment.  Simply saying "I'm sorry" and then doing nothing but sinning again is no repentance.  We need to stop sinning and do good.  For those of us who cannot do good, death at least keeps us from further sinning.

Christ said what He said to cause us to be aware of our own imperfections.  Satan causes us to use Christ's words to make excuses for sin.  Just because I have the Plague does not mean that I am absolved from trying to cure it in others, even if it means that I occasionally have to kill one of the others to keep them from spreading it further.  That is why we have temporal judgement.  We do not run in packs of vigilantes to kill sinners as the group in Jesus' time.  We have due process and at least an attempt to rehabilitate.  But that does not mean that we never apply the final solution to prevent further evil.  If that were the case, every Orthodox kingdom and every Orthodox monarch would be in the wrong.  So much for your "Body of Christ" if that were so.
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2013, 11:27:44 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.

Do you view penalties as being imposed for the purpose of keeping order in society or some sort of "revenge"?

Never as revenge.  Revenge makes you no different than they.  One cannot say that execution does not serve as a deterrent to crime.  I can fully guarantee you that the executed one will never commit another crime.  So the purpose must always be to maintain order.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2013, 12:15:14 PM »

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

The Lord "put away" David's sin and spared him from the death penalty, and imputed righteousness to him. Christ also "put away" our sin and spared us from the death penalty and imputed righteousness to us.

ALL Christians have entered into the "sure mercies of David." This is the new covenant, Isaiah 55:3. Any Christian who would seek or even approve of a Christian brother being put to death for any reason transgresses God's new covenant, and has forgotten that he himself is worthy of death.

All Christians have entered into the "sure mercies of David." You CANNOT say "put him to death" without denying grace.
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2013, 12:31:11 PM »

Discussion does not involve one party saying something over and over again until the other party finally agrees and accepts it.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2013, 12:46:07 PM »

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

The Lord "put away" David's sin and spared him from the death penalty, and imputed righteousness to him. Christ also "put away" our sin and spared us from the death penalty and imputed righteousness to us.

ALL Christians have entered into the "sure mercies of David." This is the new covenant, Isaiah 55:3. Any Christian who would seek or even approve of a Christian brother being put to death for any reason transgresses God's new covenant, and has forgotten that he himself is worthy of death.

All Christians have entered into the "sure mercies of David." You CANNOT say "put him to death" without denying grace.


Since when do we take one thing that happened to one person in the Bible and dogmatize it when clearly the Scriptures as a whole provide a multitude of examples contrary.  You can fantisize about David all you want.  I also read the parts about the Cannanites, the Philistines, the She-bear that ate the Children, the execution of the Priests of Baal, and other stories to numerous to type right now.  Believing the WHOLE Bible and not just one verse does not deny Grace.
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2013, 04:05:14 PM »

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

I am a bit up in the air on that one. First - hard to prove.  Second - seldomly only one person's complete fault.  I certainly do not believe in "no fault" divorce and think that the guilty party should recieve nothing.  Death is probably a bit extreme, not that I would shed any tears over it.  I am not sure that I would consider the agrieved spouse's execution of the guilty one to be murder.

You seem to believe yourself innocent, You are the one who being without sin would have stoned the whore in John 8:7.

◄  Matthew 5:28  ►

New International Version (©2011)
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I don't know any men who have not done this.

And I know of no one who was never angry at another, at least for a short while. So I am a murderer and Adulterer in God's book, But he still loves me.

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sisterbc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

No.  I am not a hypocrite and do not see myself as any better.  So I do not make sanctimonious monikers for myself, which show no humility but only expose the true Pride.  And whether or not God loves me is of little value in this argument.  Justice will be served in one way or another, unless you believe in the cheep Grace of the Protestants.  What we suffer here on Earth prevents suffering in the next world.  I believe that often we perform an act of mercy when we remove someone from this world.  If I knew that I would be simply shot, I would not fear paying for what I have done in this world. I would have cast the first stone.  Not because I was without sin, but so that I could have been struck dead for my own sins.  Cowards that use the New Testament to kill their own consciences will never understand that.  Those that repent will be forgiven, but that does not mean that they escape temporal punishment.  Simply saying "I'm sorry" and then doing nothing but sinning again is no repentance.  We need to stop sinning and do good.  For those of us who cannot do good, death at least keeps us from further sinning.

Christ said what He said to cause us to be aware of our own imperfections.  Satan causes us to use Christ's words to make excuses for sin.  Just because I have the Plague does not mean that I am absolved from trying to cure it in others, even if it means that I occasionally have to kill one of the others to keep them from spreading it further.  That is why we have temporal judgement.  We do not run in packs of vigilantes to kill sinners as the group in Jesus' time.  We have due process and at least an attempt to rehabilitate.  But that does not mean that we never apply the final solution to prevent further evil.  If that were the case, every Orthodox kingdom and every Orthodox monarch would be in the wrong.  So much for your "Body of Christ" if that were so.
First let me say God bless you .

With all due respect I am a hypocrite and sinner who needs to ask the lords forgiveness everyday.

And as far as repentance the man on the cross next to Christ was the first in paradise with the lord and he only admitted his fault and asked if Jesus would remember him. If that is coward and or easy grace you speak of then I believe in it too.

The man who was justified as opposed to the publican he had no time to do those things you said , But Christ said he went home justified.
You sounded to me as the Pharisee when you said about others beliefs and actions,as if you can judge them as less than your own faith.

Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

also there is the story of the workers who were all paid the same even though some only worked a few minutes since they were hired very late, you are complaining same as those who were hired early, so don't feel bad, Just that God told them it is not up to them if he pays them the same as you who did more.


<< Matthew 20 >>
New International Version   
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

And in Matthew 18:21 God spoke to Peter when asked how many times he should forgive his brother or sister who sinned against him. Peter asked if seven times was good, no the Lord said , Seventy seven times.

And last but not least, the Lord told us how to pray, he taught us the lords prayer, in which we ask for forgiveness and forgive others , every day. Which I need to be forgiven every day .

And I tell you these things but I cannot always do them , so I am a hypocrite.

A wise man once said,"There are two kinds of people, Hypocrites and dead ones."
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 04:27:18 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2013, 04:22:59 PM »

You are going where no one has gone before, at least in the first 1500 years of Christianity, mixing civil and spiritual matters and illustrating a confusion over them both.

Politely show me my confusion sir. Nathan told David, "Your sin is put away (spiritual), you shall not die (civil)."

Are you a proponent of double jeopardy for a civil offence? A man must pay with twice for a civil offence (death and eternal damnation), but pay only once for a spiritual offence (eternal damnation)?

Should the adulterer pay twice?
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2013, 04:39:52 PM »

Since when do we take one thing that happened to one person in the Bible and dogmatize it when clearly the Scriptures as a whole provide a multitude of examples contrary.

Do you keep stones ready to stone the brother who commits adultery? Just wondering?

For your information God's dealings with David were the token of His new covenant dealings with man. The "sure mercies of David" is God's new "everlasting covenant."

Quote
You can fantisize about David all you want.  I also read the parts about the Cannanites, the Philistines, the She-bear that ate the Children, the execution of the Priests of Baal, and other stories to numerous to type right now.  Believing the WHOLE Bible and not just one verse does not deny Grace.

You can live under the old covenant theocracy all you want. Not me Bub.Grin   If the carry over of the old covenant theocracy into the gospel dispensation is not denying grace, then there is no such thing as denying grace.
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2013, 04:40:52 PM »

delete duplicate post
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2013, 04:58:05 PM »

Since when do we take one thing that happened to one person in the Bible and dogmatize it when clearly the Scriptures as a whole provide a multitude of examples contrary.

Do you keep stones ready to stone the brother who commits adultery? Just wondering?

For your information God's dealings with David were the token of His new covenant dealings with man. The "sure mercies of David" is God's new "everlasting covenant."

Quote
You can fantisize about David all you want.  I also read the parts about the Cannanites, the Philistines, the She-bear that ate the Children, the execution of the Priests of Baal, and other stories to numerous to type right now.  Believing the WHOLE Bible and not just one verse does not deny Grace.

You can live under the old covenant theocracy all you want. Not me Bub.Grin   If the carry over of the old covenant theocracy into the gospel dispensation is not denying grace, then there is no such thing as denying grace.

No, I don't spend my time obsessing over it and trying to make myself look merciful and holy on internet forums by asking stupid questions.  I answered your question as I was assuming that you wanted our opinions.  If you don't like my answer, you can go play in the street because I really don't care.  Seems like you already knew the answer that you wanted and just asked to draw attention to yourself.
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2013, 05:01:25 PM »

Then adulterers should also be put to death.

I am a bit up in the air on that one. First - hard to prove.  Second - seldomly only one person's complete fault.  I certainly do not believe in "no fault" divorce and think that the guilty party should recieve nothing.  Death is probably a bit extreme, not that I would shed any tears over it.  I am not sure that I would consider the agrieved spouse's execution of the guilty one to be murder.

You seem to believe yourself innocent, You are the one who being without sin would have stoned the whore in John 8:7.

◄  Matthew 5:28  ►

New International Version (©2011)
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I don't know any men who have not done this.

And I know of no one who was never angry at another, at least for a short while. So I am a murderer and Adulterer in God's book, But he still loves me.

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sisterbc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

No.  I am not a hypocrite and do not see myself as any better.  So I do not make sanctimonious monikers for myself, which show no humility but only expose the true Pride.  And whether or not God loves me is of little value in this argument.  Justice will be served in one way or another, unless you believe in the cheep Grace of the Protestants.  What we suffer here on Earth prevents suffering in the next world.  I believe that often we perform an act of mercy when we remove someone from this world.  If I knew that I would be simply shot, I would not fear paying for what I have done in this world. I would have cast the first stone.  Not because I was without sin, but so that I could have been struck dead for my own sins.  Cowards that use the New Testament to kill their own consciences will never understand that.  Those that repent will be forgiven, but that does not mean that they escape temporal punishment.  Simply saying "I'm sorry" and then doing nothing but sinning again is no repentance.  We need to stop sinning and do good.  For those of us who cannot do good, death at least keeps us from further sinning.

Christ said what He said to cause us to be aware of our own imperfections.  Satan causes us to use Christ's words to make excuses for sin.  Just because I have the Plague does not mean that I am absolved from trying to cure it in others, even if it means that I occasionally have to kill one of the others to keep them from spreading it further.  That is why we have temporal judgement.  We do not run in packs of vigilantes to kill sinners as the group in Jesus' time.  We have due process and at least an attempt to rehabilitate.  But that does not mean that we never apply the final solution to prevent further evil.  If that were the case, every Orthodox kingdom and every Orthodox monarch would be in the wrong.  So much for your "Body of Christ" if that were so.
First let me say God bless you .

With all due respect I am a hypocrite and sinner who needs to ask the lords forgiveness everyday.

And as far as repentance the man on the cross next to Christ was the first in paradise with the lord and he only admitted his fault and asked if Jesus would remember him. If that is coward and or easy grace you speak of then I believe in it too.

The man who was justified as opposed to the publican he had no time to do those things you said , But Christ said he went home justified.
You sounded to me as the Pharisee when you said about others beliefs and actions,as if you can judge them as less than your own faith.

Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

also there is the story of the workers who were all paid the same even though some only worked a few minutes since they were hired very late, you are complaining same as those who were hired early, so don't feel bad, Just that God told them it is not up to them if he pays them the same as you who did more.


<< Matthew 20 >>
New International Version   
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“ ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

And in Matthew 18:21 God spoke to Peter when asked how many times he should forgive his brother or sister who sinned against him. Peter asked if seven times was good, no the Lord said , Seventy seven times.

And last but not least, the Lord told us how to pray, he taught us the lords prayer, in which we ask for forgiveness and forgive others , every day. Which I need to be forgiven every day .

And I tell you these things but I cannot always do them , so I am a hypocrite.

A wise man once said,"There are two kinds of people, Hypocrites and dead ones."

So, since you are a hupocrite and have not found a way to practice what you preach, stop preaching to me until you do.  Listening to you is kind of like having an engineer come up to me at work and say "hey, I'm an idiot, but I think that you should listen to my advice on rebuilding this pump".  Well, if you know something about rebuilding pumps, I'm game.  But if you are indeed an idiot that has not figured out how to rebuild one yet, get lost.  I can screw this one up on my own.

Oh, and unless you enjoy getting on letting everyone know how well you can google Bible verses, you can stop when writing me.  I have probably read the books more than you have seen them and I don't mind you just giving me your opinion.  I will know whether or not it is in the Bible.  It will save you some time writing.
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2013, 05:11:38 PM »

And what Christ said to man since you he was so smart and righteous," your sin remains". No matter how hard I try I can never keep IGod's laws, only Jesus was the only one who was not a hypocrite. As for me I am hopeless without his forgiveness every day no matter how I try, and all the Church fathers have said the same.

Obviously you do not understand the verses I quoted, I forgive you.
I am a sinner saved by Jesus . Not by my own work.

God bless you.
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2013, 06:29:37 PM »

If you don't like my answer, you can go play in the street because I really don't care.  Seems like you already knew the answer that you wanted and just asked to draw attention to yourself.

I don't like that you didn't prove your answer. I was expecting a well though out apologetic and you left me disappointed.
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2013, 07:15:44 PM »

If you don't like my answer, you can go play in the street because I really don't care.  Seems like you already knew the answer that you wanted and just asked to draw attention to yourself.

I don't like that you didn't prove your answer. I was expecting a well though out apologetic and you left me disappointed.

There was nothing to prove.  One does not need to prove an opinion.
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2013, 07:26:59 PM »

And what Christ said to man since you he was so smart and righteous," your sin remains". No matter how hard I try I can never keep IGod's laws, only Jesus was the only one who was not a hypocrite. As for me I am hopeless without his forgiveness every day no matter how I try, and all the Church fathers have said the same.

Obviously you do not understand the verses I quoted, I forgive you.
I am a sinner saved by Jesus . Not by my own work.

God bless you.

I understand them quite well.  I am impressed with you and your forgiveness.  Your sanctimoniousness has no end.  I did no realize that failing to understand the verses YOU chose was a sin.  Now, if I misunderstood the verses themselves, then I would need God's forgiveness not yours - assuming that having God forgive me does not hurt your feelings too much.  Now, what you could forgive me for is the following verse that I do not understand:

And what Christ said to man since you he was so smart and righteous

The words are English, but they are not arranged in a pattern that I am familiar with.  Forgive me.  Also:

IGod's laws

Is this an electronic god or a Freudian slip?
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2013, 07:42:52 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.
Do you view penalties as being imposed for the purpose of keeping order in society or some sort of "revenge"?
Never as revenge.  Revenge makes you no different than they.  One cannot say that execution does not serve as a deterrent to crime.  I can fully guarantee you that the executed one will never commit another crime.  So the purpose must always be to maintain order.

I only ask because I think it is important to Identify "why" someone would be for or against any punishment and how that would relate to mercy.

I guess now the question would be "does God's laws/forgiveness equate to and serve the same purpose as human laws?".

And of course "what did Christ nullify/accomplish in His death and resurrection and how (if at all) does that translate to human justice?".
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2013, 08:01:59 PM »

In the old testament death was the penalty for all moral sins. But people are not put to death today for any moral sin except murder. Why if the death penalty was canceled? James said that mercy triumphs over justice regarding all moral sins.
Do you view penalties as being imposed for the purpose of keeping order in society or some sort of "revenge"?
Never as revenge.  Revenge makes you no different than they.  One cannot say that execution does not serve as a deterrent to crime.  I can fully guarantee you that the executed one will never commit another crime.  So the purpose must always be to maintain order.

I only ask because I think it is important to Identify "why" someone would be for or against any punishment and how that would relate to mercy.

I guess now the question would be "does God's laws/forgiveness equate to and serve the same purpose as human laws?".

And of course "what did Christ nullify/accomplish in His death and resurrection and how (if at all) does that translate to human justice?".

I believe that the custom of allowing the condemned to see a priest is an act of mercy.  The condemned, if he repents, can be forgiven for his crime and through execution will be with the Lord shortly.  Unfortunately, the victim (or the victims family in the case of murder) must suffer with the consequences of the crime for the rest of their lives.  As long as the execution is relatively quick and painless, who really gets the better deal?
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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2013, 08:12:05 PM »

I believe that the custom of allowing the condemned to see a priest is an act of mercy.  The condemned, if he repents, can be forgiven for his crime and through execution will be with the Lord shortly.  Unfortunately, the victim (or the victims family in the case of murder) must suffer with the consequences of the crime for the rest of their lives.  As long as the execution is relatively quick and painless, who really gets the better deal?

Just for the record, I have not stated in this thread whether I am for or against the death penalty in any given situation. I am just trying to say that I don't think that the theology concerning Christ's death and resurrection has a real translation to abolishing the death penalty imposed by human law. That is all I'm trying to say - I don't see the connection made by the OP and find the reasoning used to reach the conclusion to be faulty.
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« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »

I believe that the custom of allowing the condemned to see a priest is an act of mercy.  The condemned, if he repents, can be forgiven for his crime and through execution will be with the Lord shortly.  Unfortunately, the victim (or the victims family in the case of murder) must suffer with the consequences of the crime for the rest of their lives.  As long as the execution is relatively quick and painless, who really gets the better deal?

Just for the record, I have not stated in this thread whether I am for or against the death penalty in any given situation. I am just trying to say that I don't think that the theology concerning Christ's death and resurrection has a real translation to abolishing the death penalty imposed by human law. That is all I'm trying to say - I don't see the connection made by the OP and find the reasoning used to reach the conclusion to be faulty.

I like it.  Sounds like good rational thinking to me.
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« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2013, 10:38:52 PM »

If you don't like my answer, you can go play in the street because I really don't care.  Seems like you already knew the answer that you wanted and just asked to draw attention to yourself.

I don't like that you didn't prove your answer. I was expecting a well though out apologetic and you left me disappointed.

So, you are here to play games. Have fun.
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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2013, 10:43:27 PM »

I believe that the custom of allowing the condemned to see a priest is an act of mercy.  The condemned, if he repents, can be forgiven for his crime and through execution will be with the Lord shortly.  Unfortunately, the victim (or the victims family in the case of murder) must suffer with the consequences of the crime for the rest of their lives.  As long as the execution is relatively quick and painless, who really gets the better deal?

Just for the record, I have not stated in this thread whether I am for or against the death penalty in any given situation. I am just trying to say that I don't think that the theology concerning Christ's death and resurrection has a real translation to abolishing the death penalty imposed by human law. That is all I'm trying to say - I don't see the connection made by the OP and find the reasoning used to reach the conclusion to be faulty.

I think so far the connection only exists in The Thinker's mind. Perhaps he should not think so much of his own thoughts.
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« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2013, 05:28:36 AM »

I think so far the connection only exists in The Thinker's mind. Perhaps he should not think so much of his own thoughts.

The connection existed in the prophet Nathan's mind. He said to David, "Your sin is put away, you shall not die."

Go back to the op. On what basis do Christians keep the death penalty for murder and not for adultery? And why is there "double jeopardy" for murder?

If you seek the death penalty for another you deny that you are worthy of death. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science friend.
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« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2013, 06:38:26 AM »



Go back to the op. On what basis do Christians keep the death penalty for murder and not for adultery?


Our Lord Jesus Christ never said anything against the death penalty. Yes, he saved the woman from stoning, but that does not speak that He abolished death penalty. That is one of the many things that a lawyer learns from the subject Penal law. Because, do not forget that Christ also said:

Marc 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.


In the case of the adulterous woman, she never forced another person into something, neither she took something by force. Murderers, pedophiles and others violate other people's rights.

Yes, with death penalty deprives the person from repentance, but also Apostle Paul said:  

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Nobody carries the sword just for showing right? Especially in the time of the Apostles.

In the whole New Testament, there is not anything that speaks against death penalty. Even with the triumph of Christianity, death penalty was not abolished, neither by the saints, neither by the Church. As other people here said, it is up to the secular authorities to deal with that. The New Testament is silent about such issues, because, Christianity deals with the soul, not with the secular law.
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