Author Topic: Ummmmmm strange question  (Read 3163 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2013, 11:24:05 AM »
St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.

I'm not him. I'm not bald.

So you reject the authority of St. Paul's teaching?
In the passage you cite, St. Paul also made it very clear that he had no commandment from the Lord on the matter but was only speaking his opinion.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2013, 11:28:55 AM »
I do not share the belief that monastic life is "better" than marriage.

St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.

Was St. Paul a monk?

I think the passage reads more like: 

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1 Corinthians 7:8

He says to remain unmarried.  That does not necessarily demand monasticism. 
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2013, 11:57:14 AM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.
separating marriage from its earthly, carnal aspect does not exalt it.

Related to this issue: there are those who won't have icons in their bedroom for this reason.  We had a number, and a large Crucifix I brought from Jerusalem hanging over our bed.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 11:57:49 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2013, 11:59:55 AM »
I do not share the belief that monastic life is "better" than marriage.

St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.

Was St. Paul a monk?

I think the passage reads more like: 

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1 Corinthians 7:8

He says to remain unmarried.  That does not necessarily demand monasticism. 

unfortunately the Church in history hasn't dealt well with this issue. Most just assume that after a time either you should by default become a monk or marry whoever is willing.  Neither do well for monasticism or marriage as a whole.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2013, 12:01:24 PM »

Ha!

I am a rebel!

Neither nun, nor married....nor at the moment, any wish to do either.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2013, 12:08:21 PM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.
separating marriage from its earthly, carnal aspect does not exalt it.

Related to this issue: there are those who won't have icons in their bedroom for this reason.  We had a number, and a large Crucifix I brought from Jerusalem hanging over our bed.

No icons hmmm.... That never crossed my mind..... So there is a tendency to keep God and the marriage bed separate.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2013, 12:25:14 PM »
Quote
From Fr Seraphim Rose "Patristic Understanding of the Place of Sex in the Creation".

It is typically modern to glorify sexual intercourse, but this is disordered, since it puts the carnal before the spiritual. The carnal aspect of sexuality is not sinful, but it is part of our fallen state, just as the other passions are (which are not sinful in themselves, but were not part of our nature in Paradise).
huh, is there a thing of which  Fr. Seraphim didn't convey "the patristic understanding"?

Offline jah777

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2013, 12:53:42 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Ceaseless prayer is not something you practice.  If you are practicing it you cannot call it ceaseless.  When you acquire ceaseless prayer, your question will no longer make sense to you.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2013, 01:07:36 PM »
I do not share the belief that monastic life is "better" than marriage.

St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.

Was St. Paul a monk?

I think the passage reads more like: 

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1 Corinthians 7:8

He says to remain unmarried.  That does not necessarily demand monasticism. 


And yet nearly every Christian marries. Guess most have a severe problems with lust.
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2013, 01:37:05 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Ceaseless prayer is not something you practice.  If you are practicing it you cannot call it ceaseless.  When you acquire ceaseless prayer, your question will no longer make sense to you.

Well then just take out the word ceaseless, and just keep Jesus prayer cuz people practice the Jesus prayer

So then the question stands if the act of sex in the confines of marriage is pure and holy.... Is t ever recommended to bring prayer into it.

I really didn't think mean to make this that complicated, sorry


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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2013, 08:56:09 PM »
There are some questions, speculations, and thoughts that we should keep to ourselves - regardless of how strongly they burn in our minds. I believe this question is one of them.


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Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2013, 09:33:42 PM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.
separating marriage from its earthly, carnal aspect does not exalt it.

Related to this issue: there are those who won't have icons in their bedroom for this reason.  We had a number, and a large Crucifix I brought from Jerusalem hanging over our bed.

No icons hmmm.... That never crossed my mind..... So there is a tendency to keep God and the marriage bed separate.


 ::)
Just like Protestants have a work ethic and a church ethic.

God should never be divorced from our lives. He is every present. We cannot hide from Him.
If we cover the icons in our bedrooms, God can still see us.
What is wrong here?
Did not God create male and female? And were not we created good?

Sex is a participation in God's creation. It is holy, but we make it perverse.
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Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2013, 09:35:02 PM »
There are some questions, speculations, and thoughts that we should keep to ourselves - regardless of how strongly they burn in our minds. I believe this question is one of them.


Selam
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I'm sorry if this question was a sin I beg yours and Gods forgivness

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2013, 10:10:59 PM »
I don't know if the question was a sin, I certainly don't feel comfortable calling it one.  That said, it's probably one of those things that you should speak with one's priest about, if you were really curious about it for some reason.  He knows you better, and can more accurately gauge what needs to be taught or clarified, what the needs are, etc. 

And, as strange as the question sounds to some of us, priests really have heard it all.  I know one who was approached by a parishioner regarding her and her husband's difficulty in engaging in marital relations--apparently, they (relative newlyweds) never got any sort of sex ed "back home" and they didn't know what to do with each other, and so he had to teach them some "basic mechanics".  They don't teach that in seminary, so I don't know what his research entailed, and I don't want to know.  :P   
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2013, 10:16:16 PM »
priests really have heard it all.  I know one who was approached by a parishioner regarding her and her husband's difficulty in engaging in marital relations--apparently, they (relative newlyweds) never got any sort of sex ed "back home" and they didn't know what to do with each other, and so he had to teach them some "basic mechanics".  They don't teach that in seminary, so I don't know what his research entailed, and I don't want to know.  :P    

Sounds like an evangelical match made in heaven!

Or other stuff I won't mention here, I think we've had enough talk about homosexuality.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:16:29 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2013, 11:00:48 PM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.
separating marriage from its earthly, carnal aspect does not exalt it.

Related to this issue: there are those who won't have icons in their bedroom for this reason.  We had a number, and a large Crucifix I brought from Jerusalem hanging over our bed.

No icons hmmm.... That never crossed my mind..... So there is a tendency to keep God and the marriage bed separate.


All I can say is good luck with that.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2013, 05:18:05 AM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.
separating marriage from its earthly, carnal aspect does not exalt it.

Related to this issue: there are those who won't have icons in their bedroom for this reason.  We had a number, and a large Crucifix I brought from Jerusalem hanging over our bed.

No icons hmmm.... That never crossed my mind..... So there is a tendency to keep God and the marriage bed separate.


Heh. Obviously the millions of Russian and other Slavic couples who have hung their wedding icons in the marital bedrooms, now and in past centuries never got the message ...  ;) :laugh:
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:19:19 AM by LBK »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2013, 08:10:14 AM »
There are some questions, speculations, and thoughts that we should keep to ourselves - regardless of how strongly they burn in our minds. I believe this question is one of them.


Selam
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I'm sorry if this question was a sin I beg yours and Gods forgivness

No, I don't think it's a sinful question. I certainly didn't mean to make you feel bad about asking it. I just think some things are better left to ourselves, or privately discussed with our spiritual father. But heck, this forum is all about asking questions and trying to discern the proper Orthodox answers, so I'm sure that's all you meant to do. No apology necessary, and please forgive me if I made you feel bad about it.


Selam
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2013, 08:14:21 PM »
Asking the question may not be a sin, but it might be an occasion of sin for some of the people who read it.  ::)
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