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Offline Ashman618

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Ummmmmm strange question
« on: May 14, 2013, 05:35:01 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 05:43:31 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline mike

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 05:51:21 PM »
What am I reading?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 05:55:27 PM »

Okh!  Seriously?

Let's wait for our married posters to chime in.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 05:56:39 PM »
Since St Paul talks about spouses abstaining temporarily for the sake of prayer, I think it's understood that we can't expect couples to be praying during those moments. This doesn't make marital relations evil, but I think it shows how marriage can be an impediment to the highest goal of spiritual life, which is unceasing prayer. Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

Offline dcommini

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 05:59:38 PM »
Aren't we always supposed to practice unceasing prayer? That being said, I would not necessarily seek out to practice unceasing prayer during that time. Like, "oh hey, relations, time to get my pray on!"


Of course if you do it right, one of you should be praising God anyway :P
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 06:14:13 PM »
Pm me about the mechanics. You know inspiration / expiration . Mutatis mutandis.

Offline mike

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 06:37:14 PM »
Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

In Roman Catholicism.

Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 06:44:11 PM »
Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

In Roman Catholicism.

In both Roman Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy, the foundation of monastic life was the same. Monasticism was referred to as the angelic life. Have you ever read the biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov?
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Offline mike

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 06:47:49 PM »
Presumably this is a reason why monasticism has traditionally been considered a higher way of life for Christians.

In Roman Catholicism.

In both Roman Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy, the foundation of monastic life was the same. Monasticism was referred to as the angelic life. Have you ever read the biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov?

No. But that doesn't change the fact that he estranged himself from his family to pursue Church career. I have same reservations for St. Luke of Crimea.

Offline William

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 06:57:09 PM »
Many people repeat Jesus' name during relations, actually.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 06:59:40 PM »
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).

Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 07:02:19 PM »
Many people repeat Jesus' name during relations, actually.

Yes.

Marriage then truly becomes a triune circle of love: God, husband, and wife.
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Offline mike

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM »
However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul.

Who himself was a celibate.

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Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks?

Money and inheritance issues. Ask Cappadotian Fathers (or their fathers).

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Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism

I say it's wrong to perform some monastic LARPing.

Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 07:08:09 PM »

I say it's wrong to perform some monastic LARPing.

What do you have against monasticism? Why all these anti-monastic jabs of yours?

St. Seraphim of Sarov was not estranged from his family.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 07:10:15 PM by Maria »
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 07:10:52 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 07:13:02 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 07:14:51 PM »
Many people repeat Jesus' name during relations, actually.

Yes.

Marriage then truly becomes a triune circle of love: God, husband, and wife.

Hm, I'm wondering if William was being serious.

Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 07:17:59 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.

I agree. It seems as if people today believe that they must read porn before having relations, when porn actually destroys marital love and is itself a form of adultery.

In Roman Catholicism, the Couple to Couple League, which teaches Natural Family Planning, encourages couples to pray all the time, even during their marital embrace. Praying helps men and women to control their lust and embrace each other in chastity and love. Healthy married couples will still experience ecstatic joy, but it will be heavenly pure love.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 07:19:24 PM by Maria »
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Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 07:20:52 PM »
Many people repeat Jesus' name during relations, actually.

Yes.

Marriage then truly becomes a triune circle of love: God, husband, and wife.

Hm, I'm wondering if William was being serious.

I do not think he was joking, but that he was serious. No smilie.

I recall reading in the biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov that he encouraged married couples to pray the Jesus Prayer unceasingly, especially those who had infertility problems. They successfully bore children following his advice.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 07:21:27 PM by Maria »
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Offline mike

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 07:21:59 PM »
We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.

The OP was a joke.

What do you have against monasticism? Why all these anti-monastic jabs of yours?

I'm not anti-monastic. One of my close friends is a novitiate. My aunt (and sister's godmother) is a nun*.

On the other hand I do not share the belief that monastic life is "better" than marriage. These are different paths for different kinds of people. But they lead to God alike.

Quote
St. Seraphim of Sarov was not estranged from his family.

He didn't have one.

*she became a nun after christening my sister
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 07:22:54 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 07:23:29 PM »


I know, I know...don't worry. It's okay. You clicked on a wrong thread because you are curious. Now what did you learn? That's right...curiousity is not always good...here, have a fish.

Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 07:25:00 PM »
We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.

The OP was a joke.

What do you have against monasticism? Why all these anti-monastic jabs of yours?

I'm not anti-monastic. One of my close friends is a novitiate. My aunt (and sister's godmother) is a nun*.

On the other hand I do not share the belief that monastic life is "better" than marriage. These are different paths for different kinds of people. But they lead to God alike.

Quote
St. Seraphim of Sarov was not estranged from his family.

He didn't have one.

*she became a nun after christening my sister

When I referred to the family of St. Seraphim, I was referring to his mother and siblings.
Of course, since he was never married, but remained a virgin, he never did have any offspring.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 07:36:46 PM »
I do not share the belief that monastic life is "better" than marriage.

St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline mike

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 07:43:42 PM »
St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.

I'm not him. I'm not bald.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 07:46:40 PM »
St. Paul does when he explicitly stated that would prefer Christians to be monks/nuns, but that marriage exists for the sake of our weakness.

I'm not him. I'm not bald.

So you reject the authority of St. Paul's teaching?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 07:52:38 PM »
Plus it would be a great reminder of one's own sinfulness to say the prayer during such a time: here I am a most wretched sinner unable to live with my wife as with a sister as Adam did on Paradise or St. John in Kronstadt.

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 07:58:00 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

I think that, once you've actually acquired the prayer of the heart and are able to pray without ceasing, you will understand. Until then, I'm not sure what good an answer to the question does.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 07:58:51 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.

Amen.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 07:59:19 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

I think that, once you've actually acquired the prayer of the heart and are able to pray without ceasing, you will understand. Until then, I'm not sure what good an answer to the question does.

Very wise answer.
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 08:37:02 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.



It wasn't a joke, nor am I making fun....

I was just thinking that the Jesus prayer could be a very successful option for someone who has that issue.
I didn't mean to scandalize

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 08:39:23 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.



It wasn't a joke, nor am I making fun....

I was just thinking that the Jesus prayer could be a very successful option for someone who has that issue.
I didn't mean to scandalize

I don't see how it could be sinful or inappropriate to pray at a time when one is doing lawfully something which God has blessed and commanded.
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 09:25:53 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.



It wasn't a joke, nor am I making fun....

I was just thinking that the Jesus prayer could be a very successful option for someone who has that issue.
I didn't mean to scandalize

I don't see how it could be sinful or inappropriate to pray at a time when one is doing lawfully something which God has blessed and commanded.

Indeed I never thought of it as sinful, although I myself would find it a little awkward but that's just my problem.

My original post was a genuine inquiry as to weather any heavy hitters actually promoted it

The whole male control thing was just because someone suggested it was only for women

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 09:33:41 PM »
There are so many comments that could be made in this thread (some of my own ideas have already been contributed here, so I can continue to pretend to retain whatever image of sanctity some of you may have of me!).  I will contribute "ask your priest", presuming this is a serious question.  

Also, I'd echo what Shanghaiski wrote above.  When one has obtained the gift of unceasing prayer from God, s/he'll know what to do in their own personal life with such questions.  Until then, it's rather useless to speculate on things above our abilities (perhaps that's another reason why many of us are defaulting to "humor").  Better to focus on bettering our prayer life at the times we pray, and to focus on bettering other activities when we are engaged in them.  "Let the reader understand."  :P   

  
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 09:35:36 PM »
I didn't mean to say prayer was impossible at such a time. I suppose I would advise against carrying this out with your komboschini in hand. :P

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 09:35:45 PM »
Is it reccomened to practice unceasing prayer (Jesus prayer) during marital relations.

Only the Woman

You don't think it would have a positive benefit on the mans "control" by repeating the Jesus prayer

Maybe I'm being fusty, but I don't like the color of these jokes. We shouldn't be making fun of the Jesus prayer like this.



It wasn't a joke, nor am I making fun....

I was just thinking that the Jesus prayer could be a very successful option for someone who has that issue.
I didn't mean to scandalize

I don't see how it could be sinful or inappropriate to pray at a time when one is doing lawfully something which God has blessed and commanded.

Indeed I never thought of it as sinful, although I myself would find it a little awkward but that's just my problem.

My original post was a genuine inquiry as to weather any heavy hitters actually promoted it

The whole male control thing was just because someone suggested it was only for women

I hope you do understand that Marc1125's post was a joke...and an extremely risque one at that.  So your reply to it was misconstrued as inappropriate. I would have made the same mistake.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:37:13 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 09:51:13 PM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2013, 10:00:30 PM »
From the subject line I was already aware that this was a strange topic

However since I never had sex in the context of marriage sex has never seemed to be a pure and holy thing to me at all but the church it seems, marriage vs. monastic debate aside, affirms marital relations as such.

I was genuinely curious if prayer was ever a part of it, as I'm still trying to sort out my own marriage vs monastic calling.


Offline minasoliman

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2013, 10:20:09 PM »
From the subject line I was already aware that this was a strange topic

However since I never had sex in the context of marriage sex has never seemed to be a pure and holy thing to me at all but the church it seems, marriage vs. monastic debate aside, affirms marital relations as such.

I was genuinely curious if prayer was ever a part of it, as I'm still trying to sort out my own marriage vs monastic calling.


I think Shaghaiski's advice is very good.  No one can really answer this question unless they actually reach a state of unceasing prayer.  Until then, I don't think you need to reach such a high level to figure out your own calling.  Just don't forget to pray that God guide you into whatever He calls you to do.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2013, 10:28:35 PM »
From the subject line I was already aware that this was a strange topic

However since I never had sex in the context of marriage sex has never seemed to be a pure and holy thing to me at all but the church it seems, marriage vs. monastic debate aside, affirms marital relations as such.

I was genuinely curious if prayer was ever a part of it, as I'm still trying to sort out my own marriage vs monastic calling.



I'm not sure it's possible to divide prayer from our lives. Many saints counsel to pray even if one is sinning--that is, in all humility, to ask for God's salvation in the midst of one's own weakness that, eventually, one will turn around.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2013, 11:03:15 PM »
Christ is risen!
Roman Catholicism, at least before Vatican II, did have a less sympathetic view of sexuality than Eastern Orthodoxy, e.g. the Western Church followed St Jerome in treating sexual pleasure as intrinsically sinful, while the Eastern view was that it was not sinful in itself, just as no pleasure is sinful in itself. They also required all priests to be celibate, in contradiction to ancient tradition.

However, it is also true that the life of virginity and monasticism has indeed been considered the highest path for Christians, and this tradition goes right back to St Paul. Why do you think we require our bishops to be monks? Marriage is honorable and a type of Christ and the Church, but it is wrong to say that we give it the same status as monasticism (which is, of course, a kind of mystical marriage between a monk and the Church, or between a nun and Christ).
Meditate on the fact that monasticism is likened to marriage and not the reverse.

Right. It is marriage in its exalted state that is the model for monasticism. The point is that some here want to denigrate monasticism because they wish to exalt marriage only in its earthly, carnal aspect.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2013, 11:21:32 PM »
I'm not sure it's possible to divide prayer from our lives. Many saints counsel to pray even if one is sinning--that is, in all humility, to ask for God's salvation in the midst of one's own weakness that, eventually, one will turn around.

While this may take us on a tangent, this is such an important point.  Somewhere in my own "walk", I accepted the supposedly Roman Catholic teaching (supposedly because I'm not sure if it's actually what they teach, but my sources certainly thought so) that, if you are in a state of sin, any spiritual efforts, prayer, fasting, etc., were useless and wasted until one reconciled with God and returned to a state of grace.  Until that time, God wasn't listening to you, so it was pointless to even try.

And with that, whole portions of my life passed without so much as a whisper of a prayer because I figured God wasn't listening if I wasn't "right" in his sight.  And down and down we go...until I came across the Orthodox teaching above.  I'm still recovering, but it's such a help in the spiritual struggle to know that, whether we are "right" or "wrong", God's always waiting to hear us and help us if we approach him with as much humility as we can muster; to know that, though we have to do our part, it is his to show mercy and to save, and he'll do it as long as we cooperate with him, and we can do that at any moment, even now, no matter where we are or what condition we're in. 

No other God is worth believing in.   
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Offline Maria

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2013, 12:47:21 AM »
I'm not sure it's possible to divide prayer from our lives. Many saints counsel to pray even if one is sinning--that is, in all humility, to ask for God's salvation in the midst of one's own weakness that, eventually, one will turn around.

While this may take us on a tangent, this is such an important point.  Somewhere in my own "walk", I accepted the supposedly Roman Catholic teaching (supposedly because I'm not sure if it's actually what they teach, but my sources certainly thought so) that, if you are in a state of sin, any spiritual efforts, prayer, fasting, etc., were useless and wasted until one reconciled with God and returned to a state of grace.  Until that time, God wasn't listening to you, so it was pointless to even try.

And with that, whole portions of my life passed without so much as a whisper of a prayer because I figured God wasn't listening if I wasn't "right" in his sight.  And down and down we go...until I came across the Orthodox teaching above.  I'm still recovering, but it's such a help in the spiritual struggle to know that, whether we are "right" or "wrong", God's always waiting to hear us and help us if we approach him with as much humility as we can muster; to know that, though we have to do our part, it is his to show mercy and to save, and he'll do it as long as we cooperate with him, and we can do that at any moment, even now, no matter where we are or what condition we're in. 

No other God is worth believing in.   

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2013, 03:11:23 AM »
Plus it would be a great reminder of one's own sinfulness to say the prayer during such a time: here I am a most wretched sinner unable to live with my wife as with a sister as Adam did on Paradise or St. John in Kronstadt.

Just when I thought you couldn't top the Rob Dreher comment . . .

You really should write a pillow talk prayer book.
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Re: Ummmmmm strange question
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2013, 09:50:25 AM »
There are some questions, speculations, and thoughts that we should keep to ourselves - regardless of how strongly they burn in our minds. I believe this question is one of them.


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