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Author Topic: Should I even bother to try?  (Read 3172 times) Average Rating: 5
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Severian
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« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2013, 08:44:33 PM »

Well, it depends on how you define "interfaith marriages".  There are plenty of mixed marriages, in large part because of the cultural forces at work within the community, and this brings its own pastoral problems (perhaps a thread on the OO treatment of this issue would be the best place to discuss these details).  But from a sacramental, canonical perspective, there is no such thing as a mixed marriage: we only marry two Orthodox, or we don't marry at all. 
By "inter-faith" I meant when one party is Orthodox and the other is not.
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« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2013, 08:59:58 PM »

Yeah, that doesn't happen, not from a sacramental/canonical perspective anyway.  But that doesn't mean that, on those occasions when the non-Orthodox party converts to marry the Orthodox party, it is done purely out of conviction.  More often than not, it's something to get out of the way in order to get married in the Church, and functionally the marriage is mixed anyway. 
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« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2013, 09:01:05 PM »

Yeah, that doesn't happen, not from a sacramental/canonical perspective anyway.  But that doesn't mean that, on those occasions when the non-Orthodox party converts to marry the Orthodox party, it is done purely out of conviction.  More often than not, it's something to get out of the way in order to get married in the Church, and functionally the marriage is mixed anyway. 
Understood.
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« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2013, 03:18:13 AM »

Hello,

   Let me give you all a brief background of my life. I was baptized Coptic orthodox but grew up attending both the protestant and Coptic orthodox church. (Dad was protestant, mom was Coptic orthodox.) I want to inform the reader that this did not harshly impact my life at all. I grew up in a loving caring family, and we all attended both churches regularly. Yes, my Sundays consisted of Coptic church in the morning, followed by protestant church in the evening. And yes, Sundays was not a day i would look forward to as a child, considering i was in church for half the day.
      None the less, looking back at it now, I'm glad i went through that experience since i got to be indulged into both cultures and both styles of worshiping the father. I completely understand the differences between both of these radically different sectors of Christianity, But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change. At the age of ten, i leaned over to being protestant, a decision my parents respected, and have mainly attended protestant church ever since. I still visit the orthodox church and enjoy their biblical studies as well as their liturgy from time to time. They know my story very well, and have accepted me into their group, something most Orthodox churches wouldn't do with a "protestant kid".  I am good friends with most of the youth there and have grown close with almost all of them.
        I know marrying a girl from the Coptic Church would be difficult considering my situation. But how difficult would it be? I'm hoping i can find someone on here, that has gone through my experiences and can explain to me the hurdles and struggles i will probably have to endure in order to marry a Coptic girl. I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.

You're Protestant. I thought the Coptic church would not allow non-Orthodox to marry in it.
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« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2013, 03:42:54 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."

Is this the Orthodox idea of Jesus' command to go into the world and preach the gospel? Shame on you both.
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« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."

Is this the Orthodox idea of Jesus' command to go into the world and preach the gospel? Shame on you both.


 Grin I love you, Rachel.  I love seeing your name pop up because it brings a smile to my face.  But if you want to proselytize me, I am politely telling you to bugger off.  Kiss

I don't mind an exchange of info if you are seeking more info on Orthodoxy or if I have question about how your faith may view something, but encouraging Orthodox members to abandon the Church and go trapsing off after some neo-evangelical nonsense is not the purpose of this forum.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:56:55 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2013, 03:54:18 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."

Is this the Orthodox idea of Jesus' command to go into the world and preach the gospel? Shame on you both.


 Grin I love you, Rachel.  I love seeing your name pop up because it brings a smile to my face.  But if you want to proselytize me, I am politely telling you to bugger off.  Kiss
I think it is impossible to politely tell someone to 'bugger off.' Discussion means, you put your point of view, I put mine. Could I politely suggest that if you don't like reading Protestant points of view then perhaps the 'Orthodox-Protestant area of this forum is a section you might like to avoid. But hopefully you'll want to stay around.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:58:42 PM by rachel » Logged

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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2013, 03:59:16 PM »

I probably should not have modified my response above, here it is:

I don't mind an exchange of info if you are seeking more info on Orthodoxy or if I have question about how your faith may view something, but encouraging Orthodox members to abandon the Church and go trapsing off after some neo-evangelical nonsense is not the purpose of this forum, even in the Orthodox-Protestant discussion area.  That is what I mean by proselytizing.

Oh, and I can tell someone politely to bugger off. I just did.  Wink
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« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2013, 04:01:25 PM »

I sort of like a good debate once in a while.
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« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »

 Grin Bugger off, Cyrillic  Grin

j/k, don't. I like your posts
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« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2013, 04:11:24 PM »

I guess I'll have to pack my stuff...

 Smiley
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« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2013, 04:21:09 PM »

I will clarify, Rachel.

I don't have a problem with a vigorous debate on the merits of different positions.  YeshuaisIam does that and (IMHO) is very respectful about Orthodox teaching and is not trying to convince others to believe what he says.  That is quite different from someone coming on to this forum, even in the Orthodox-Protestant subforum, and trying to convince inquirers, catechumens, and Orthodox that the Church should be abandoned.  Debate = good.  Proselytizing = not good.

And I still love seeing you post.  It makes me happy.  Smiley
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« Reply #102 on: May 17, 2013, 04:26:55 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."
You've never heard the American English idiom "knock yourself out" before? It means "go right ahead" or "feel free".

"Can I have a piece of cake?"

"Of course! Knock yourself out!" = "Of course! Feel free to eat as much as you want!"
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:31:19 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Clemente
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« Reply #103 on: May 17, 2013, 04:31:12 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.

Twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen.

Maybe the first saying we learned in Dutch class.  Grin

 Smiley

The saying sounds so much better in Dutch and is sadly almost intranslatable.

You have to be kidding . . .

In five seconds:

In the bed of separate creed is where the devil sows his seed.

Feel free to improve to upon it.

My, well done mate. Very good!
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« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2013, 10:02:00 AM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


I appreciate your direct and well noted answer dear Rachel Smiley I would though want some kind of reason behind your interpretation of that verse. If you want to reduce Gods grace to a interpretation of your own, I fully respect that with love my friend. But you will have to take a very strong leap of faith in many occasions. For example, did every single person who got baptized by John the baptist know that Jesus Christ,the eternal begotten Son of God, who was born in the flesh in Nazareth, by the virgin Mary, that he was the only way, truth and life, and that through him all can come to the Father? These were Jews being baptized because they knew that Gods grace was about to explode in Israel, not that they could quote John 14:6 Tongue
Throughout scripture we see that a relationship with God is based on faith. So that those people who were baptised in faith by John the Baptist are in the same position as the Old Testament saints.



Quote
1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
Given the closeness in time between the ministries of John and Jesus it is likely that many people who were baptised by John came to a faith in Jesus. That is why John was said to be "preparing the way" for him.

Quote
2) If someone didn´t know about Jesus, but through the proclaiming words of John the Baptist, knew that Gods plan for salvation and everlasting grace would soon occur. Would he/she still not get to heaven?
The answer is yes if they came by faith just as Abraham, Joshua and David had a relationship with God even though God's plan of salvation through Jesus was not known to the Old Testament saints. This also tells you that baptism is not the basis for salvation.

Quote
Finally, my only response would actually be this. For one to fully know Gods tremendous grace and how it works today, and through history, through different perspective. One has to be God to understand it clearly from 1 single verse from the Bible.
Of course God does not expect us to understand himself from one single verse. If that were the case he would only have given us one verse. The message that salvation is of faith is not simply given in one verse. Some examples:
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Romans 5:2
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved


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Cyrillic
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« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2013, 10:06:40 AM »

Faith is more than mere intellectual assent to the dogmas of Christianity. Faith is a life in Christ. Faith without works is dead.
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« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2013, 10:14:54 AM »


A: Would Christ actually urge us to pray for each other, not just on earth, but also through the persons in union with the one body of Christ in heaven?
Please provide an example from scripture where Christ says this.

Quote
B: Or would Jesus Christ in full union with his true body just say, do never ever ask for a saint in heaven to pray for you. You will be drawn further away from me!
We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.




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« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2013, 10:19:39 AM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


I appreciate your direct and well noted answer dear Rachel Smiley I would though want some kind of reason behind your interpretation of that verse. If you want to reduce Gods grace to a interpretation of your own, I fully respect that with love my friend. But you will have to take a very strong leap of faith in many occasions. For example, did every single person who got baptized by John the baptist know that Jesus Christ,the eternal begotten Son of God, who was born in the flesh in Nazareth, by the virgin Mary, that he was the only way, truth and life, and that through him all can come to the Father? These were Jews being baptized because they knew that Gods grace was about to explode in Israel, not that they could quote John 14:6 Tongue
Throughout scripture we see that a relationship with God is based on faith. So that those people who were baptised in faith by John the Baptist are in the same position as the Old Testament saints.



Quote
1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
Given the closeness in time between the ministries of John and Jesus it is likely that many people who were baptised by John came to a faith in Jesus. That is why John was said to be "preparing the way" for him.

Quote
2) If someone didn´t know about Jesus, but through the proclaiming words of John the Baptist, knew that Gods plan for salvation and everlasting grace would soon occur. Would he/she still not get to heaven?
The answer is yes if they came by faith just as Abraham, Joshua and David had a relationship with God even though God's plan of salvation through Jesus was not known to the Old Testament saints. This also tells you that baptism is not the basis for salvation.

Quote
Finally, my only response would actually be this. For one to fully know Gods tremendous grace and how it works today, and through history, through different perspective. One has to be God to understand it clearly from 1 single verse from the Bible.
Of course God does not expect us to understand himself from one single verse. If that were the case he would only have given us one verse. The message that salvation is of faith is not simply given in one verse. Some examples:
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Romans 5:2
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved



You do realize, Rachel, that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that baptism will save anyone apart from the context of a life of faith? If one who is baptized then lives his life in a way that totally renounces his baptism, he will not be saved. In fact, he will likely be worse off at the last judgment than he who was never baptized.
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« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2013, 10:25:51 AM »


We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Sophistry pure and simple. With the same 'argument' one could condemn asking others to pray for you.
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« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2013, 10:29:38 AM »


We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Sophistry pure and simple. With the same 'argument' one could condemn asking others to pray for you.
+1.
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« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2013, 10:52:56 AM »

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it.
God's holy people are all those who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Quote
Christians in the philippines, who crucify 2-3 church members (only through their hands) each year at lent, do you really think that their path isn´t good enough to grant them salvation in the end?

Well nowhere do we read that this is something God wants his people to do. What purpose does this serve? You are talking again of 'a path being good enough to grant them salvation.' Salvation has nothing to do with our being good enough. We can never be good enough. That is why Christ died for us. It is all his doing. We can never be good enough to earn our salvation.
Romans 5:15-18
But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,  not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,  whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Quote
Whatever the answer may be, the question always boils down to if something is right or wrong.
And we know what is right or wrong by turning to God's word not to any church traditions. Even during the time of the apostles we read of error being preached. Just because a church has always believed something does not ipso facto make it right. The question should always be, what has God to say on the matter?

Quote
I am 100% sure that the virgin Mary with all the saints close to the Lord asks him to grant the best of blessings upon you Cheesy
On what scriptural basis do you base this claim?
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« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2013, 11:13:47 AM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.
God's word says:
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We can indeed know we are saved. Salvation is for 'whosoever.'
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's word says we cannot earn our salvation through anything.

Ephesians 2 v8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Quote
 Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance.
This is not scriptural - refer above verses.
So we are not to obey Christ if we hope to be saved?
If you obeyed Christ you would know if you are saved or not. Are you saved? Or are you hoping to be saved?

According to you, you are doomed to a life of uncertainty.
Quote
Better uncertainty than complacency.
So you are uncertain whether you are saved. So you don't believe God's promises. The opposite of uncertainty is NOT complacency but certainty. God's word assures us that we can be certain so why not believe him?

You might never abide by enough statutes. In fact if you are counting on keeping the law to save you, scripture says you will never be good enough.
Quote
So you equate obedience to Christ's statutes with trust that the law will save us?
You are either trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross to save you or your ability to be righteous enough i.e. keeping the law. God's word says you will never be righteous enough by your works. If this were possible Christ would not have had to die.

That's why Jesus died for your sins. He paid the price for you. He said on the cross 'It is finished.' He accomplished everything. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is his gift which he offers to you.
Quote
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
So you accept that it is God's free gift to you? A lot of Orthodox posters on this forum alone would disagree with you.
 
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« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2013, 11:14:16 AM »

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it.
God's holy people are all those who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

The Rapture definitely isn't part of the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. No source earlier than the 19th century even talks about that ridiculous old wives' tale.

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« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2013, 11:18:16 AM »

Quote
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
So you accept that it is God's free gift to you? A lot of Orthodox posters on this forum alone would disagree with you.

It's a gift, yes. Not an offer you can't refuse. God the Father isn't the Godfather.
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« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2013, 11:21:44 AM »

You do realize, Rachel, that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that baptism will save anyone apart from the context of a life of faith? If one who is baptized then lives his life in a way that totally renounces his baptism, he will not be saved. In fact, he will likely be worse off at the last judgment than he who was never baptized.
But you do teach that you cannot be saved without being baptised. This is not scriptural. The thief on the cross was not baptised.
Scripture does tell us to be baptised but our salvation is not dependent on this.
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« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2013, 11:28:51 AM »

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it.
God's holy people are all those who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

The Rapture definitely isn't part of the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. No source earlier than the 19th century even talks about that ridiculous old wives' tale.
For source - refer to God's word. This predates the 19th century! That you consider God's word to be 'old wives' tales says much about why you hold its truths with such indifference.
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« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2013, 11:32:18 AM »

Quote
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
So you accept that it is God's free gift to you? A lot of Orthodox posters on this forum alone would disagree with you.

It's a gift, yes. Not an offer you can't refuse. God the Father isn't the Godfather.
No one is suggesting that everyone choses to accept his gift.
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« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2013, 11:33:57 AM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
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« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2013, 11:42:56 AM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
Yes.
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« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
Yes.

That's mafia theology.
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« Reply #120 on: May 19, 2013, 12:05:56 PM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
Yes.

That's mafia theology.
LOL. Mafia theology. We totally need to make a meme about that.
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« Reply #121 on: May 19, 2013, 02:10:59 PM »


We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


Appreciate your once again direct response brother in faith, but the conclusion you make of this verse is not about all that there is. As orthodox christians we have never believed that by praying to the saints, we got saved in their advocacy. In the end it´s always our beloved Lord and Savior who through his action on the cross advocates to God our heavenly Father, but with the prayers of thousands of Gods people, I think Christ our God may consider bringing some person to heaven by his own action, asking for prayers can´t clease our sins by itself. But the Lord willingly can.
With the same standard you are using, which i totally reject, many verses would be taken out of their all over context, the true faith. For example:

Luke 12:10
"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
So with the direct logical interpretation you made in the previous verse. What would you conclude with this one? Can we blaspheme the Father and the Son and yet be forgiven? In the verse, of course we can, in the content of what the Lord ment, of course nothing can´t be forgiven if we ultimately don´t submit to the power of the Holy spirit here on earth. Then there will be no change.

With loving regards to your question, your conclusions before asking the question may be a little wrong. Must Christ explicitly say in the scriptures that we may pray to the saints or Gods people in union through him? With that same standard no one can find any biblical basis for sola scriptura, because Jesus never uttered anything about it. But rather we look throughout the entire scripture, its fuller context, to see what true faith Christ intended for us through his own ministry here on earth, through his apostles, and through his church.

Through the vision John had of heaven, explained in revelation, we read this:

Revelation 5:8
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Revelation 8:3-5
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

The thing you might conclude dear brother from these verses is that the prayer of Gods people were not in any way directed to the saints or any holy person in heaven. But your conclusion is would not then be based on anything but a pure guess.  Rather a Orthodox can conclude, with an entire church tradition and history as a reference, that atleast 1 of these prayer, take just one, was a request that the angel or the 24 elders who held the censors, that they may in humility and remembrance deliver that 1 prayer to God. And they ultimately did, Christ didn´t bring the prayers before God, the elders and angel did. In all due respect, if 1 John 2:1-3 would be applied as you interpreted it, Christ would snap the censors out of the angels hand, as well as from the 24 elders, and he would kindly say, I´m the advocate of all these prayers, I will myself take all censors before God.


Let´s take a very long jump back in history and ask ourselves. Who were David actually talking to when he uttered many of the psalms? Seriously, how can many of our beloved brother and sisters in the protestant churches miss these points? And if David could utter these words during his time, how much more can´t we pray in this manner with the final covenant of the Lord...

Psalm 103:20
Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. - A psalm directed to the angels

Once again Rachel, and I don´t mean this in any disrespectful way, please forgive me if it seems so. But to take 1 verse out of the entire bible, and make a direct statement of truth/faith about it, isn´t a good idea.


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« Reply #122 on: May 19, 2013, 02:23:05 PM »

If you still insist dear brother/sister, then please give me a sermon with explicit statements from the bible on masturbation, not on sexual immorality, but on masturbation. You will have a problem with that, along with many others topics. But start with the hardest one =)

Now, please please please forgive me, if i in any way talked in a disrespectful, embittering or unloving way
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« Reply #123 on: May 19, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »

The ultimate question for anyone holding "sola scriptura" is this, and if you ask for a scriptual reference Rachel, neither me or you can´t provide it. Was the church of the apostles dependent of the scriptures or was the scriptures dependent of the church? Did the scripture wrote the church or the other way around? Smiley Who gave you authority today to change that? And give me scriptual reference for your given authority please.

Don´t assume "sola sciptura" when engaging with Orthodoxy.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The interesting part here is that the word "teaching" is used elsewhere in the bible, without any note indication. But in this verse, a note is given to the word. *

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

Please take time Rachel, with all due respect and love, to read through the early church of the apostles. If they broke bread, layed hands, prayed and annoited with oil. Why in the world would either you or Martin Luther say that it´s not neccesary today? (Scriptural reference for the answer, hehe ;P)
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« Reply #124 on: May 19, 2013, 03:15:02 PM »

Quote
1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
Given the closeness in time between the ministries of John and Jesus it is likely that many people who were baptised by John came to a faith in Jesus. That is why John was said to be "preparing the way" for him.

I actually am pretty disappointed Rachel for you not keeping up with your own standard.

I asked for scriptural reference to the question mentioned above. Yet you do your own theology and say that because of the time frame everyone came to believe in Christ. My question is how in the world you know that? I asked for scripture, the thing we both call Gods word, not yours. The same standard is to be used against orthodoxy, as against yourself please. Or else we can´t discuss anything, with great love and sincere respect my fellow brother/sister in the faith.

Yes, John the Baptist, said that he would prepare the way for the Lord. Not for jews being baptized in the jordan river. So you can´t for no reason draw the conclusion. My question remains...


Forgive me please for the bad attitude
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« Reply #125 on: May 19, 2013, 04:10:02 PM »

Please keep this thread on topic. To wit, the OP:

Hello,

   Let me give you all a brief background of my life. I was baptized Coptic orthodox but grew up attending both the protestant and Coptic orthodox church. (Dad was protestant, mom was Coptic orthodox.) I want to inform the reader that this did not harshly impact my life at all. I grew up in a loving caring family, and we all attended both churches regularly. Yes, my Sundays consisted of Coptic church in the morning, followed by protestant church in the evening. And yes, Sundays was not a day i would look forward to as a child, considering i was in church for half the day.
      None the less, looking back at it now, I'm glad i went through that experience since i got to be indulged into both cultures and both styles of worshiping the father. I completely understand the differences between both of these radically different sectors of Christianity, But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change. At the age of ten, i leaned over to being protestant, a decision my parents respected, and have mainly attended protestant church ever since. I still visit the orthodox church and enjoy their biblical studies as well as their liturgy from time to time. They know my story very well, and have accepted me into their group, something most Orthodox churches wouldn't do with a "protestant kid".  I am good friends with most of the youth there and have grown close with almost all of them.
        I know marrying a girl from the Coptic Church would be difficult considering my situation. But how difficult would it be? I'm hoping i can find someone on here, that has gone through my experiences and can explain to me the hurdles and struggles i will probably have to endure in order to marry a Coptic girl. I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.


 

If you wish to discuss anything else, please start another thread for that purpose.
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« Reply #126 on: May 31, 2013, 12:13:05 PM »

I'm not sure if Anonymous is still reading this thread, and I'm sorry to be bumping an old-ish topic if that's the case.

But I'm sad that there wasn't much more discussion about the threadmaker's topic. I guess he was looking for a sympathetic run-down of what it might be like if he married a Coptic girl without leaving Protestantism, but maybe it's hard for Orthodox members to think like a Protestant.

So I address this just to you, Anonymous, one protestant to another. I hope that your faith in Christ and love of his great church is never diminished by the almost "tough love" approach that some posters have used here. Of course some of them want to convert you to Orthodoxy, it's what they believe to be true. But as for your question, what would it be like to marry a Coptic girl, I think you can already see some of the difficulties surrounding it. The nature of the replies here and the fact that people can't even imagine why you would consider marrying Orthodox without converting, all shows the kind of attitude you would come up against if you do decide to pursue a Coptic girl. If you want to marry anyone, you'll have to ask yourself, "is this worth it?" And so will she. And you'll ask yourself, "am I being fair for her?" and she'll ask herself, "am I being harsh on him?" I'm not saying it's impossible, but the (rather unromantic) truth is that at the end of the day you need to be realistic. And you ought to be kind on your sister in Christ. Why take an extra burden? Why be an extra burden to another person? I don't want to sound cliched, but is this what God is really calling you to?

If God calls you to the Orthodox church, follow him and he will show you the way, and you will be free to marry a Coptic girl. But if God has planted you in the Protestant church, and if that is where he wants you to grow, and you flourish there, why be anxious to marry a Coptic? If God has put you in one church, and it's hard to marry a girl in another church, then maybe that's a sign that God doesn't intend you to marry that particular girl. Unless he makes her accessible to you, by leading you to the Orthodox church.

It's just a suggestion. I don't know all of what's going on. But I'd say pray about it, and be real about it. It's not something to take on lightly. And trust in God.

And I pray that God's grace will be with you, always. Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: May 31, 2013, 12:47:17 PM »

You missed the part where all he wanted was to debate on this subject, and not really interested in the girl.
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« Reply #128 on: May 31, 2013, 02:27:07 PM »

The nature of the replies here and the fact that people can't even imagine why you would consider marrying Orthodox without converting, all shows the kind of attitude you would come up against if you do decide to pursue a Coptic girl.

...

But if God has planted you in the Protestant church, and if that is where he wants you to grow, and you flourish there, why be anxious to marry a Coptic?

I believe I asked--twice--why the OP was interested in marrying a Coptic girl, and that's never been addressed by him, although he had been otherwise active in this thread. 

I don't think it's fair to say that the "nature of the replies" and the "attitude" of the Orthodox here is indicative of what he'd face if he tried to enter into a mixed marriage.  It's indicative of people who ask questions but have those questions ignored in favour of debating other issues not related to the original question (e.g., how Protestantism is true and Coptic Orthodoxy is not).
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« Reply #129 on: May 31, 2013, 03:20:52 PM »

I don't know why anyone would expect this thread to go anywhere other than where it went, given how clear-cut this issue is, from the Coptic perspective. He can't marry the Coptic girl without converting, and he apparently doesn't want to convert. There's no real discussion to be had. It's not possible. So of course it devolved into irrelevant bickering.
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« Reply #130 on: July 24, 2013, 12:56:43 PM »

But you do teach that you cannot be saved without being baptised. This is not scriptural. The thief on the cross was not baptised.
Scripture does tell us to be baptised but our salvation is not dependent on this.

  That's not true, there is the "baptism of desire" or in the case of a martyr, the "baptism by blood".

  Baptism is the normal means of salvation, that doesn't mean there are not also extraordinary means.

   Disdain for the necessity of baptism?  I can't see how that's spiritually a good thing at all.  Not when Christ himself commanded it be done.
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