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Author Topic: Should I even bother to try?  (Read 2932 times) Average Rating: 5
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Dpaula
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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2013, 08:41:21 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?

« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:42:09 PM by Dpaula » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2013, 10:52:00 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.

It is by the Grace of God alone through which we hope to gain salvation.  Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance.  We are never actually "worthy" of it.

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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2013, 01:13:05 AM »

I will try my best dear friend.

The question is very important and has probably always been facing Christians overall, whether only our faith brings someone to heaven. But in the same logic it would work with our faith, it same applies through the teachings of the church. We both agree the in the mass market of ideas, not only Christian can go to heaven. Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
The question is never if only Road A leads to heaven. But rather the question to be asked is: Which Road from A-C we say is the best and most safe one to follow. There needs to be an direct and true answer to that question within our church as well. Because if A-C all works then the christians in the philippines can keep on crucifying their church members and say their reasoning why they will get to heaven, and there is no grounded truth for stopping them.

So it though is with the orthodox faith, the mystery of God salvation and grace is not something we try to boil down to only within our church. BUT truthfully orthodoxy is the best, most safest and preserved way that has always been, through apostolic succession, a direct way of life through Christs church. But in the end Gods grace may be poured as it was to the thief on the cross when he cried out for mercy. But you must admit that a christian can´t say to a muslim that we all get to heaven, just pray and so forth. The same it is when a protestant belief reduces Gods grace through the full teachings of his true church. It is not the only way to heaven, but the best and always most recommended, a huge difference.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:13:44 AM by Jovan » Logged

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Daedelus1138
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2013, 01:47:20 AM »

I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.  

  That statement seems extreme.  It seems if we have no evidence of our justification, then that can tempt one towards despair, which is wrong, because the Bible tells us that is contrary to God's desire that sinners repent.  So clearly we can have some  assurance of our salvation.  Else what religion you are preaching is vain and empty.  If the Eucharist is not the body of Christ and we are not united to Christ and made one with him, then I think there is something wrong with the whole scheme- why bother going to your church?

  No one earns salvation, no work we do propitiates God's wrath or gives us justice before God.  God comes to us, we do not come to him.  We are the one lost sheep that the Shepherd seeks out at great risk and cost.   Salvation is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, trust in him alone... and nothing else.  We are unprofitable servants and the works we do in faith belong to God, not to us.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:57:24 AM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
NicholasMyra
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2013, 02:03:05 AM »

So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation?
That is not the teaching.

Protestants, Catholics, and others can be saved. But if they are saved, it is because they are united somehow to Christ's body, in this age or the next. And we identify that body with the Church. So the answer to "do you have to be Orthodox"? Yes; can that person have been a Protestant in this age? Sure, I don't see why not.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 02:03:37 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2013, 01:40:15 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2013, 01:42:49 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.

If you care to learn what the Church is let me know.

Once you hit about 1k posts with 30% of them being of relative substance, I'll clue you in on how Orthodoxy understands what the Church is.

Has nothing to do with walls.

Till then, enjoy the crypto-proselytizing.
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anonymous
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »

I will try my best dear friend.

The question is very important and has probably always been facing Christians overall, whether only our faith brings someone to heaven. But in the same logic it would work with our faith, it same applies through the teachings of the church. We both agree the in the mass market of ideas, not only Christian can go to heaven. Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
The question is never if only Road A leads to heaven. But rather the question to be asked is: Which Road from A-C we say is the best and most safe one to follow. There needs to be an direct and true answer to that question within our church as well. Because if A-C all works then the christians in the philippines can keep on crucifying their church members and say their reasoning why they will get to heaven, and there is no grounded truth for stopping them.

So it though is with the orthodox faith, the mystery of God salvation and grace is not something we try to boil down to only within our church. BUT truthfully orthodoxy is the best, most safest and preserved way that has always been, through apostolic succession, a direct way of life through Christs church. But in the end Gods grace may be poured as it was to the thief on the cross when he cried out for mercy. But you must admit that a christian can´t say to a muslim that we all get to heaven, just pray and so forth. The same it is when a protestant belief reduces Gods grace through the full teachings of his true church. It is not the only way to heaven, but the best and always most recommended, a huge difference.

You see, this is an answer i highly respect. Jovan your replies on these forums are possibly the best i have ever read. You talk with such respect and consideration for others, that i can see Christ in your life. Its amazing, considering i am only reading a thread, but i really can. Just wanted to mention that to you before I tell you how I disagree with you Tongue

Im glad you feel that the Orthodox Christian path is not the only path to salvation as Gods grace and mercy is the same for all of mankind. Where i disagree with you is the "but the best and always most recommended". I agree with you, the Orthodox Church is a great path for acquiring salvation, but why do we necessarily have to label it as the best? Im sure that there are many OC who will not enter heaven, as they have been living the "OC lifestyle" by name and not by true faith and works. This is also the case for Protestant Christians, who label themselves Christian, but do not bear fruit to prove it. Why than does one have to better than another?

Dont want to put words in your mouth but you will probably say: Anonymous that protestant faith "dilutes the truth of god". The full truth is only found in the Orthodox Church, the real church, the FIRST church (i had to throw that in there Smiley. My question to you is why does god grant us "protestants" salvation in the first place? Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end? Is it that risky that i have to tell myself that i must convert? In the end, shouldn't i look at my personal life, with honesty, and ask myself where my faith is? If it isnt where it needs to be, than maybe its time to find a new church that can touch my heart. In the end its your works and faith that sets where you spend your eternity. Not, which church you happen to attend that can give you better ODDS of accessing heaven. Salvation isnt a poker game.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2013, 02:10:56 PM »

Salvation isnt a poker game.

Seems like Pascal and God have disagreed at times.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2013, 02:20:46 PM »

Im glad you feel that the Orthodox Christian path is not the only path to salvation as Gods grace and mercy is the same for all of mankind. Where i disagree with you is the "but the best and always most recommended". I agree with you, the Orthodox Church is a great path for acquiring salvation, but why do we necessarily have to label it as the best? Im sure that there are many OC who will not enter heaven, as they have been living the "OC lifestyle" by name and not by true faith and works. This is also the case for Protestant Christians, who label themselves Christian, but do not bear fruit to prove it. Why than does one have to better than another?

Dont want to put words in your mouth but you will probably say: Anonymous that protestant faith "dilutes the truth of god". The full truth is only found in the Orthodox Church, the real church, the FIRST church (i had to throw that in there Smiley. My question to you is why does god grant us "protestants" salvation in the first place? Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end? Is it that risky that i have to tell myself that i must convert? In the end, shouldn't i look at my personal life, with honesty, and ask myself where my faith is? If it isnt where it needs to be, than maybe its time to find a new church that can touch my heart. In the end its your works and faith that sets where you spend your eternity. Not, which church you happen to attend that can give you better ODDS of accessing heaven. Salvation isnt a poker game.

I apologize for piggy-backing on your discussion with Jovan, but this is my response:

Christ founded a Church. He desired that all would be in it. If you truly believe this Church to be the Holy Orthodox Church (which I do), you would be a fool (or worse) not to try to join it. This does not mean that those who, for whatever reason, do not enter the Church in their lifetimes will see damnation. But it means that those who do enter the Church do so (one would hope) to follow their Lord and Savior.

Orthodoxy is the fullness of faith (and yes, a Roman Catholic would say the same about Catholicism). Christ wants his followers to be in His Body, the Church, where they are to receive the sacraments and live in communion with Him.
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Dpaula
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2013, 02:37:06 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.

I'm sorry, but you're not new to this.
You say you've been raised Orthodox and Protestant. So you're not new. Don't play this card.
I saw you asked the same exact question on another thread and a moderator told you that part of the forum is not where you should ask this question. Then you come here, go around the bush about some orthodox girl, when in the end all you wanted was to bring us to the same question you posted on the other thread, so you can start your bashing of Orthodoxy.
So don't tell me you're new.

And yes....that's exactly what I said....it's God's mercy. End of discussion.

And no, I'm not talking about four walls. But your definition of Church is so far off, that it's practically impossible to explain it to you on a forum. I suggest you go talk to a priest, IF you're serious about it. Otherwise, I won't allow you to treat Orthodox people like we're some kind of selfish, ignorant people that don't want anybody else in Heaven with them. Please....
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rachel
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2013, 04:01:16 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.
God's word says:
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We can indeed know we are saved. Salvation is for 'whosoever.'
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's word says we cannot earn our salvation through anything.

Ephesians 2 v8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Quote
  Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance. 
This is not scriptural - refer above verses. According to you, you are doomed to a life of uncertainty. You might never abide by enough statutes. In fact if you are counting on keeping the law to save you, scripture says you will never be good enough. That's why Jesus died for your sins. He paid the price for you. He said on the cross 'It is finished.' He accomplished everything. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is his gift which he offers to you.
 
Quote
We are never actually "worthy" of it.
This is correct.


[/quote]
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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2013, 04:08:10 PM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.



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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2013, 06:28:15 PM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


I appreciate your direct and well noted answer dear Rachel Smiley I would though want some kind of reason behind your interpretation of that verse. If you want to reduce Gods grace to a interpretation of your own, I fully respect that with love my friend. But you will have to take a very strong leap of faith in many occasions. For example, did every single person who got baptized by John the baptist know that Jesus Christ,the eternal begotten Son of God, who was born in the flesh in Nazareth, by the virgin Mary, that he was the only way, truth and life, and that through him all can come to the Father? These were Jews being baptized because they knew that Gods grace was about to explode in Israel, not that they could quote John 14:6 Tongue

You have to answer me this, with all due respect:

1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
2) If someone didn´t know about Jesus, but through the proclaiming words of John the Baptist, knew that Gods plan for salvation and everlasting grace would soon occur. Would he/she still not get to heaven?

Finally, my only response would actually be this. For one to fully know Gods tremendous grace and how it works today, and through history, through different perspective. One has to be God to understand it clearly from 1 single verse from the Bible. If im wrong, please just answer my questions from scripture. Or else you can just "assume" that John baptized and did the work that Jesus just repeated some years after, so that all the baptized jews could get saved Tongue Gods grace doesn´t boil down to such a simple answer.
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2013, 07:35:57 PM »

You see, this is an answer i highly respect. Jovan your replies on these forums are possibly the best i have ever read. You talk with such respect and consideration for others, that i can see Christ in your life. Its amazing, considering i am only reading a thread, but i really can. Just wanted to mention that to you before I tell you how I disagree with you Tongue

First and most important my friend and brother/sister in the faith. I by myself can´t thank you enough but only pray that God may grant you the best of his blessing for the loving response. Appreciate it a lot, I´m just a sinner trying to grasp 0.001% of Gods loving truth. Your encouraging words got me 99 entire % closer to the full truth of his love, hehe Cheesy

I will try to respond as briefly as I can to some things that I feel are very necessary to discuss more about. To the issue of which way/path/life is considered a true and holy one before God, and through which church.
What I tried to do in my earlier response was to emphasize on the logical necessity of only 1 way in acquiring salvation before God. It may sound as a very harsh idea, that the orthodox church, hold to the most grounded,truthful and entire way of life before God. But lets turn the perspective a bit more, what if we asked Christ about the issue. Christ, please show and reveal the entire truth of your way and how I can follow it most safely. Christ would never answer the question in the same manner as we humans sometimes would like it to sound. In the light of ALL the different churches, and ALL the teachings. Which ones would Christ reasonable put forth as necessarily things in life that would grant a human the best chance to reunite with him in heaven.

With a example from the churches for example:

A: Would Christ actually urge us to pray for each other, not just on earth, but also through the persons in union with the one body of Christ in heaven?

B: Or would Jesus Christ in full union with his true body just say, do never ever ask for a saint in heaven to pray for you. You will be drawn further away from me!

You probably grasp the point by now dear friend. Martin Luther, the reformer and therefore the foundation of the protestant church, said that using the saints in prayer, in asking for help before God, was a heretical idea. In the other end the orthodox church firmly and always believed that saints, their prayers and we asking them for their prayers are a very recommendable way to come closer to Gods salvation, God willing only. Both A and B can´t both be correct, Christ can´t never urge both ways to be true ones before him.

Furthermore, many other issues can brought forth. The most important thing from this discussion must be, there can only be one way that Christ can recommend. He can´t be pluralistic and yet exluding things from his truth or church. One verse from scripture that I always loved is from Jude, which gives a hint to a faith/way/path that was entrusted to us from God, not a faith/way/path that we ourselves were to experiment with Tongue

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it. Yet we sit here and discuss that expression of faith that actually should be very clear to us according to Jude. Question is, where is the fullness of that faith that was entrusted?


Quote
My question to you is why does god grant us "protestants" salvation in the first place? Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end? Is it that risky that i have to tell myself that i must convert?

My answer to these questions will be much the same. Who am I, a slothful and evil sinner before God, to judge without any power to do it? I can´t speak on the behalf of my own name about salvation, as it is a bigger mystery that only God can handle within his full nature. Therefore if someone is saved or not, is not up to me, you or nobody else to answer. I can only give a path for which I know that God can fully work out his plan for salvation. I would rewrite your first question like this:

Has God granted all protestants a total way of life, from 1-10, which is recommendable not on our terms, but on Gods? Or does every single generation have to figure it out according to the culture of that time?

The same question I put forward to the orthodox church:
Has God granted all orthodox a total way of life, from 1-10, which is recommendable not on our terms, but on Gods? Or does every single generation have to figure it out according to the culture of that time?

I think that the different answer to these questions pretty much talks for themselves. 2 different ways cannot both be 100% before God, either A is 100%, B is not. There would not be A and B, but just one A if Protestantism and Orthodoxy were the same things.

Quote
Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end?

I cannot judge for every single case, I would once again need to be God. I can though ask you this question in response.

Christians in the philippines, who crucify 2-3 church members (only through their hands) each year at lent, do you really think that their path isn´t good enough to grant them salvation in the end?

Whatever the answer may be, the question always boils down to if something is right or wrong. If the church always expressed its faith through other ways than crucifying its members, then that should be kept. Not because we want it, but because God wants it as the full path that the apostles came forth with from Christ.

If the church always had only male priests in their clergy. But what authority can Martin Luther now start a movement that nowadays accepts female priests in the clergy? Or encourages the protestant church not to ask saints for their prayers, while the church before that always did.

I hope my answers/examples were not to fuzzy, please please please forgive me if they were. Just wanted to give different perspectives on questions which normally may seem pretty obvious. Once again dear brother/sister, I pray that God blesses you both here and hereafter for the loving words you gave. I am 100% sure that the virgin Mary with all the saints close to the Lord asks him to grant the best of blessings upon you Cheesy
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 07:44:40 PM by Jovan » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2013, 07:37:33 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.

I'm sorry, but you're not new to this.
You say you've been raised Orthodox and Protestant. So you're not new. Don't play this card.
I saw you asked the same exact question on another thread and a moderator told you that part of the forum is not where you should ask this question. Then you come here, go around the bush about some orthodox girl, when in the end all you wanted was to bring us to the same question you posted on the other thread, so you can start your bashing of Orthodoxy.
So don't tell me you're new.

And yes....that's exactly what I said....it's God's mercy. End of discussion.

And no, I'm not talking about four walls. But your definition of Church is so far off, that it's practically impossible to explain it to you on a forum. I suggest you go talk to a priest, IF you're serious about it. Otherwise, I won't allow you to treat Orthodox people like we're some kind of selfish, ignorant people that don't want anybody else in Heaven with them. Please....

I like you, your fear and paranoia of me, I find really amusing. I have so many things to say I dont even know where to start. Number 1) what I meant by I'm new to this, is that I am new to the fourm. As u can see this is my 11th posting and I'm already being jumped on haha...that I also fiand amusing. Number 2) I really had this question I originally posted in mind...and yes I roamed around the site and found other threads and read them and replied to them, jut like you do good sir. I happened to reply to one posting and the moderator told me I can't bring up topics like that on that specific forum hence me warning everyone that I'm new to this and still a newbiee. Its my reading of that fourm that sparked the second question i asked here.If u care to even investigate you can check the time stamps and verify that I posted this question before I tried commenting on that other forum you saw my reply on. I also find it really funny how you are charging me and accessing me of trying talk badly to OC people and bring them down.#3 If you could so kindly quote me in a single instance of bashing anyone, that would be great. #4 I love how you are running away from a debate with the whole "you're so dumb, I can't even explain it to you on here technique" it was pretty cute to read. Lastly good sir, I suggest you have more respect and compassion like Jovan when trying to debate a protestant online in the Protestant section of the forum. Isn't that what this section is used for? Or am I doing something wrong as your accusations made me feel like a criminal spying and sneaking around trying to trick people. May the peace of Christ be with you. Have a good day.
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2013, 07:54:47 PM »

I am a woman.

Bye!
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2013, 07:56:18 PM »

These are the fundamental cores of which both churches accept.

Nope. Copts, please correct if I'm wrong but I believe that list lacks a lots of things like the Church, sacraments, Saints etc. which are all part of fundamental core too.
You are absolutely right.

Please anonymous, if you are insistent on remaining in your current Protestant sect then marry one of your own. Do not look for an Orthodox girl and drag her and her future children into this. If you wish to marry a Coptic Orthodox girl then return to the fold of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic ORTHODOX Church and repent of your apostasy.

The Orthodox Church is the one and only true Christian Church. Protestantism is a watered-down and shallow version of Christianity which cannot trace its history back more than 500 years, whereas Orthodoxy was founded the Holy Apostles. Reading the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers makes this all the more evident.

Sorry if this seems blunt, but I can't really think of any other way to put it.
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« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2013, 08:05:33 PM »

You have to really forgive me now anonymous, I totally forgot that It was you who started this thread, thought my responses here was from old. So please forgive me, I became totally unaware of your situation within the family when i responded. Hope my answers did some help anyways, the answers remains, my sinful attitude can be reduced!!!
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« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2013, 11:08:30 PM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.

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« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2013, 11:21:32 PM »

I am a woman.

Bye!

^-----Every experience I've had with a would be paramour.

*sigh*
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« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2013, 12:20:46 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Perhaps you didn't see my question to you towards the beginning of the thread.  Given your original post, I asked out of genuine curiosity that day itself why you were interested in marrying a Coptic girl in the first place.  But of all the things "debated" or referred to in this thread since then (seriously, the Rapture?), this question seems to be the one that hasn't been addressed. 

Seeing how the thread has developed, maybe that was on purpose.   
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« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2013, 01:09:24 AM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?

The first question to ask yourself would be if she's willing to live with a divided religious family (e.g. you as Protestant and she as Coptic Orthodox)?

Second question - would you want to convert her to Protestant faith?

Third question - if you have children - would you expose them to both faiths as the case with your upbringing?

If you, ahem, found your way back to the Coptic Orthodox Church, then some of the questions are answered or go away completely.

These questions are not impossible either though. I assum you turned out alright and I know many people who did as well from similar divided Christian families. When the parents are loving, these issues are not hard to deal with.
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« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2013, 01:25:50 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.
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« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2013, 01:26:59 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.
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« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2013, 01:30:22 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
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« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2013, 01:32:41 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.
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« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2013, 01:41:25 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).
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« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2013, 01:45:06 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.
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« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2013, 01:51:43 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.
You know very well that in the context of this thread "Orthodox" refers to primarily to the OO Church being that the OP was an apostate from Coptic Orthodoxy to Protestantism.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:55:28 AM by Severian » Logged
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« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2013, 02:15:05 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.

Come on, now. We're just validating anonymous's views that we're all argumentative frustraters. Tongue
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« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2013, 02:18:27 AM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.
God's word says:
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We can indeed know we are saved. Salvation is for 'whosoever.'
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's word says we cannot earn our salvation through anything.

Ephesians 2 v8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Quote
 Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance.
This is not scriptural - refer above verses.
So we are not to obey Christ if we hope to be saved?

According to you, you are doomed to a life of uncertainty.
Better uncertainty than complacency.

You might never abide by enough statutes. In fact if you are counting on keeping the law to save you, scripture says you will never be good enough.
So you equate obedience to Christ's statutes with trust that the law will save us?

That's why Jesus died for your sins. He paid the price for you. He said on the cross 'It is finished.' He accomplished everything. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is his gift which he offers to you.
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
 
Quote
We are never actually "worthy" of it.
This is correct.
What is not correct is your straw man images of what we Orthodox believe. Then again, Rachel, if you enjoy knocking down straw men, then knock yourself out.
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« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2013, 02:20:06 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.

What then does the CC demand, divorce?
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« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2013, 02:29:01 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator
Please do not chastise the moderators publicly for actions they take on this forum. Consider this your first warning that scolding the moderators in this way or publicly disputing or questioning their actions is the best way to get yourself in deep trouble on this forum. If you wish to dispute or question a moderator's actions, please do so only via private message.

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BTW, seeing that you admit to being new here, I urge you to read the Forum Rules Page in full before you submit any more posts to this forum.

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« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2013, 02:39:40 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.

Come on, now. We're just validating anonymous's views that we're all argumentative frustraters. Tongue
To you and orthonorm both: anonymous did speak specifically of marrying a Coptic Orthodox girl, so this is an issue pertaining specifically to Protestant/Coptic Orthodox relations. Please do not encourage any EO-OO polemics on this thread. Further attempts to do so will be met as attempts to drive this thread off topic.
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« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2013, 09:08:09 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.



Well now, hold on a second.
Who said anything about a debate? This thread was not created to have a debate, or was it? ? ? ?
You simply asked if you should even bother trying to have a relationship with an Orthodox girl? Many people here, genuinely, replied to your question. Nobody was debating anything, they just answered your question, from an Orthodox perspective, of course. But you proceeded to ask us (out of nowhere) if we believe the Orthodox are the only ones being saved. This had nothing to do with the subject of this thread you created yourself. Let me ask you, were you really interested in finding out the answer to this question or you just wanted to create a debate? ? ? And if you honestly wanted to find out what you should do about this girl, I sincerely apologize and I hope you forgive me for my attitude in my posts. But to be completely honest, so far, you haven't proved you are really interested in the future of this girl, since you haven't even mentioned her anymore. On top of this, you are upset, we're not properly debating you and we are not trying the right way to convert you. HuH? ? ?
I wasn't even aware that I was actually trying to convert you. I'm not on this forum to debate, nor to convert anyone.
I am here to interact with my Orthodox brothers and sisters, to learn from them, to get advice. And if I should desire to debate, I'd debate only with them, since we actually speak the same -Orthodox- language. There's no point debating with you since you don't understand what I'm saying.

So let's get this straight....
Are you here to debate or to learn about what Orthodoxy teaches?
Did you start this particular thread because you really care about the future of this girl or what you really wanted was to start a debate?
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« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2013, 09:18:59 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.



Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
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« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2013, 09:39:05 AM »

We Orthodox brothers/sister, with great respect and love, no one take me wrong, I´m the one who needs to remember this prayer the most in my daily life. But how much we may we twist and turn the threads, the attitude of them or the themes of them we have to remember this prayer, it is really important, with most aim at myself. Please forgive me if this was a unnecessary post, but I though had to remember myself of it.

A part from the Prayerbook included in the orthodox study bible. The part is under "Prayer for the beginning of the day".

"Teach me to treat all that comes to me throughout the day with peace of soul and with firm conviction that Your will governs all. In all my deeds and words, guide my thoughts and feelings. In unforeseen events, let me not forget that all are sent by You. Teach me to act firmly and wisely, without embittering and embarrassing others."
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« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2013, 10:05:28 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.

What then does the CC demand, divorce?

That people within the communion marry within the communion.
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« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2013, 10:25:37 AM »

Anon, might I ask what protestant church you attend (or denomination) if I missed it, sorry.

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« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2013, 10:26:31 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.



Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.

Exactly.

Ano, If you want debate with a wide variety of Protestant Christians (as well as one or two Orthodox, plus myself, and a handful Catholics), head on over to BibleForums.org. It's a great forum, it's Protestant, and I have to be respectful there of their views as non-Orthodox are to be respectful here. I like a lot of the folks over there, and that might be more the type of place you are looking for.
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« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.

What then does the CC demand, divorce?
The Coptic Church would not allow the marriage to take place to begin with.
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« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2013, 08:19:35 PM »

The Coptic Church would not allow the marriage to take place to begin with.

This is fairly standard throughout the Oriental Orthodox Churches.  In the Church in India, for instance, the non-Orthodox person has to convert, or the marriage does not happen in the Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox party going through a non-Orthodox ceremony is considered to have excommunicated himself/herself.  At present, there isn't a middle ground.  It's theologically sound, if not always "nice".  I have issues with it, not for the theology, but because of the cultural standards which are often at play and make problems where there need not be any.     

I would've imagined that this form of "strictness" would've been traditional for the EO as well, even if more exceptions are granted nowadays for pastoral reasons.  Perhaps we'll get to that point too, but for now, intermarriage is addressed with strictness.   
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« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2013, 08:24:44 PM »

^I am relieved that this is the case. I was actually under the impression that the Indian Orthodox permitted such inter-faith "marriages." I am very pleased to hear this is not true.
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« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2013, 08:43:12 PM »

Well, it depends on how you define "interfaith marriages".  There are plenty of mixed marriages, in large part because of the cultural forces at work within the community, and this brings its own pastoral problems (perhaps a thread on the OO treatment of this issue would be the best place to discuss these details).  But from a sacramental, canonical perspective, there is no such thing as a mixed marriage: we only marry two Orthodox, or we don't marry at all. 
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