OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 04:16:01 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Should I even bother to try?  (Read 3161 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« on: May 12, 2013, 03:47:07 PM »

Hello,

   Let me give you all a brief background of my life. I was baptized Coptic orthodox but grew up attending both the protestant and Coptic orthodox church. (Dad was protestant, mom was Coptic orthodox.) I want to inform the reader that this did not harshly impact my life at all. I grew up in a loving caring family, and we all attended both churches regularly. Yes, my Sundays consisted of Coptic church in the morning, followed by protestant church in the evening. And yes, Sundays was not a day i would look forward to as a child, considering i was in church for half the day.
      None the less, looking back at it now, I'm glad i went through that experience since i got to be indulged into both cultures and both styles of worshiping the father. I completely understand the differences between both of these radically different sectors of Christianity, But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change. At the age of ten, i leaned over to being protestant, a decision my parents respected, and have mainly attended protestant church ever since. I still visit the orthodox church and enjoy their biblical studies as well as their liturgy from time to time. They know my story very well, and have accepted me into their group, something most Orthodox churches wouldn't do with a "protestant kid".  I am good friends with most of the youth there and have grown close with almost all of them.
        I know marrying a girl from the Coptic Church would be difficult considering my situation. But how difficult would it be? I'm hoping i can find someone on here, that has gone through my experiences and can explain to me the hurdles and struggles i will probably have to endure in order to marry a Coptic girl. I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.


 
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »

Hello,I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.

The best thing would be to return to the Orthodox Church.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 04:04:44 PM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 04:05:11 PM by anonymous » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,171


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 04:15:23 PM »


        I know marrying a girl from the Coptic Church would be difficult considering my situation. But how difficult would it be? I'm hoping i can find someone on here, that has gone through my experiences and can explain to me the hurdles and struggles i will probably have to endure in order to marry a Coptic girl. I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.


 

I'm not Coptic, but of the same faith.  May I ask why you are interested in marrying a Coptic girl? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,408


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 04:28:13 PM »

difficult to answer without knowing more details, but i think it would be good to (if u didn't already) tell God that you would like to know the depths of His love and that you are willing to do anything to achieve that goal.

then be prepared for a long and difficult, but beautiful spiritual journey.

coz sorting out your spiritual life with God is the most important thing to do. once u have done that, deciding how / when / with who to get married should not be too tricky.

if u had told me 10 years ago, i was going to be an orthodox Christian, i would have fallen on the floor with shock!
but, here i am, and it started with a longing for something deeper and a surprise recommendation of an orthodox church from a friend who follows a different religion.
Logged
SolEX01
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 10,975


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 04:35:18 PM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?

The first question to ask yourself would be if she's willing to live with a divided religious family (e.g. you as Protestant and she as Coptic Orthodox)?

Second question - would you want to convert her to Protestant faith?

Third question - if you have children - would you expose them to both faiths as the case with your upbringing?

If you, ahem, found your way back to the Coptic Orthodox Church, then some of the questions are answered or go away completely.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,487



« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 04:51:27 PM »

But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change

In your opinion, what is that fundamental core?
Logged
WPM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,142



« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 05:00:20 PM »

Yes, trying makes all the difference.
Logged
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 05:18:55 PM »

But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change

In your opinion, what is that fundamental core?

Fundamental core of Christianity is:

There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9).
God is three in one or a Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; John 14:16-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Acts 2:32-33, John 10:30,17:11, 21; 1 Peter 1:2).
God is omniscient or "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20).
God is omnipotent or "all powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6).
God is omnipresent or "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139).
God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16).
God is holy (1 Peter 1:15).
God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1).
God is love (1 John 4
God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6).
God is spirit (John 4:24).
God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24).
God is infinite and eternal. He has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24).
God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10).
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11-12; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:
Jesus became a man (Philippians 2:1-11).
Jesus is fully God and fully man (Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
Jesus was sinless (1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15).
Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).
Man was created by God in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27).
All people have sinned (Romans 3:23, 5:12).
Death came into the world through Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15).
Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2).
Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 Peter 2:24).
Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).
Jesus resurrected from the dead in physical form (John 2:19-21).
Salvation is a free gift of God (Romans 4:5, 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 1:8-10).
The Bible is the "inspired" or "God-breathed," Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).
Those who reject Jesus Christ, after they die, will go to hell forever (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:
Those who accept Jesus Christ, after they die, will live for eternity with Him (John 11:25, 26; 2 Corinthians 5:6).
Hell is a place of punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46; Revelation 19:20).
Hell is eternal (Matthew 25:46).
There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).
Jesus will return to the earth (Acts 1:11).


These are the fundamental cores of which both churches accept.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 05:21:39 PM by anonymous » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »

Where did that list come from?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 05:25:34 PM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?
He didn't say your only option was to go back to the Orthodox Church. He merely said that was your best option.
Logged
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukranian catholic
Jurisdiction: Philadelphia
Posts: 503



« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 05:26:21 PM »

There was no death before Adam sinned?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 05:28:59 PM »

But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change

In your opinion, what is that fundamental core?

Fundamental core of Christianity is:

There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9).
God is three in one or a Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; John 14:16-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Acts 2:32-33, John 10:30,17:11, 21; 1 Peter 1:2).
God is omniscient or "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20).
God is omnipotent or "all powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6).
God is omnipresent or "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139).
God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16).
God is holy (1 Peter 1:15).
God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1).
God is love (1 John 4
God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6).
God is spirit (John 4:24).
God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24).
God is infinite and eternal. He has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24).
God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10).
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11-12; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:
Jesus became a man (Philippians 2:1-11).
Jesus is fully God and fully man (Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
Jesus was sinless (1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15).
Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).
Man was created by God in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27).
All people have sinned (Romans 3:23, 5:12).
Death came into the world through Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15).
Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2).
Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 Peter 2:24).
Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).
Jesus resurrected from the dead in physical form (John 2:19-21).
Salvation is a free gift of God (Romans 4:5, 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 1:8-10).
The Bible is the "inspired" or "God-breathed," Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).
Those who reject Jesus Christ, after they die, will go to hell forever (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:
Those who accept Jesus Christ, after they die, will live for eternity with Him (John 11:25, 26; 2 Corinthians 5:6).
Hell is a place of punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46; Revelation 19:20).
Hell is eternal (Matthew 25:46).
There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).
Jesus will return to the earth (Acts 1:11).


These are the fundamental cores of which both churches accept.
If you copied this from an online source, copyright law requires that you give proper credit to your source. A link to your source will be enough. Please provide this link to me via private message within the next 72 hours.

Thanks.

-PeterTheAleut
Section Moderator
Logged
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 05:32:56 PM »

Coptic Orthodoxy does not accept the idea that the core of it and Protestantism are the same. It sees itself as the one true church and Protestantism as separated from that church.

What church were your parents married in?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 05:38:33 PM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?

The first question to ask yourself would be if she's willing to live with a divided religious family (e.g. you as Protestant and she as Coptic Orthodox)?

Second question - would you want to convert her to Protestant faith?

Third question - if you have children - would you expose them to both faiths as the case with your upbringing?

If you, ahem, found your way back to the Coptic Orthodox Church, then some of the questions are answered or go away completely.

To answer your first question, i don't look at this as a division. As pointed out in my initial comment, i grew up in this so called "division" you speak of.  It didn't feel like a division at all, i was worshiping God and speaking to him from two different churches. Eluding to my previous comment on the fundamental cores of both churches, we worshiped and prayed to the same God. There wasn't a division in my mind.

Question 2: No i would not want her to convert to protestant, just like me I choose my faith based upon where i was able to connect with the father. This next comment might spark some debate, but i was unable to connect with god in the Orthodox Church. Yes i sat through the liturgy and stayed during the mass, but that PERSONAL relationship with Christ was not there. This relationship that i have with my father and my daily prayer to him is because of my attendance to the Protestant church. And this is precisely how i made my decision when i was 10 years old. If she can honestly say that she is a christian (a true follower of Christ) by attending an orthodox church, than why would i want her to convert? Can you see where i am going with this?

Question 3: Yes, if i have children that is exactly what i would do. To most of you this sounds crazy. I have the most wonderful relationship with my heavenly father right now, and i consider myself a true disciple to his word. I only say this since no one on here knows who i am, so i say it not to boast but to confirm my faith in Christ. The reason i mention this is to show that my style of upbringing has given me the opportunity to have that personal relationship with Christ, a relationship that many people who call themselves Christians lack. So in short, I would like to give my children that same opportunity.

Keep in mind that salvation was not for the Orthodox Christians, but Jesus came down for all of man kind.
Logged
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2013, 05:51:46 PM »

Question 3: Yes, if i have children that is exactly what i would do. To most of you this sounds crazy.

Not only that, but it would be a canonical impediment to marriage in most Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions, and I can only imagine Coptic Orthodoxy being even more stringent.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 09:23:19 AM »

Quote
Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).
There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

Just glancing through your list, I think the EO and OO churches would dispute these as being common beliefs.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,508



WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2013, 09:31:19 AM »



Reviewing your posts, anonymous, I would suggest you do the Coptic girl a favor, and just leave her alone to find a nice Coptic Orthodox boy.  

Why add drama to her life?

I'm baffled that you wish to remain Protestant...want to marry an Orthodox, and raise your kids as both.

I think you have underlying confusion with your own faith, and are drawn to Orthodoxy, but, some reason are afraid to admit it, even to yourself.  Otherwise, why are you in search of an Orthodox girl?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 09:32:39 AM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 09:34:59 AM »

Quote
Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).
There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

Just glancing through your list, I think the EO and OO churches would dispute these as being common beliefs.


Yes, my eyebrow was raised a little at the idea that the 'Rapture' was a core Christian belief that EO and OO should agree with. Many (most?) Protestant churches wouldn't even agree with that one.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 10:57:44 AM »

http://christianity.about.com/od/christiandoctrines/a/basicdoctrines.htm
 
You are receiving this warning of 30 days for posting a naked link even after you received a number of warnings already to stop posting naked links. If you think this action wrong, please PM me.

- PeterTheAleut
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2013, 11:04:15 AM »

These are the fundamental cores of which both churches accept.

No. Orthodoxy does not accept the Rapture theory, for example. There are other ridiculous statements on that list but I'll limit myself to this one for now.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2013, 11:06:28 AM »

Please tell us what point you hope to communicate by posting this otherwise naked link.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 11:08:05 AM »

Where did that list come from?

I really liked believing he just typed all that stuff out off the top of his head.

Yours's a cynical generation.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 11:11:52 AM »

Please tell us what point you hope to communicate by posting this otherwise naked link.
I was providing the source you requested.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2013, 11:13:50 AM »

Please tell us what point you hope to communicate by posting this otherwise naked link.
I was providing the source you requested.
The source I requested from anonymous? Please don't cover for him. Let him provide the source himself.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 11:15:27 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2013, 11:32:21 AM »

Where did that list come from?

I really liked believing he just typed all that stuff out off the top of his head.

Yours's a cynical generation.

 laugh

I literally laughed out loud at this comment.  I think my coworkers are looking at me strange now.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
SolEX01
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 10,975


WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2013, 02:15:43 PM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?

The first question to ask yourself would be if she's willing to live with a divided religious family (e.g. you as Protestant and she as Coptic Orthodox)?

Second question - would you want to convert her to Protestant faith?

Third question - if you have children - would you expose them to both faiths as the case with your upbringing?

If you, ahem, found your way back to the Coptic Orthodox Church, then some of the questions are answered or go away completely.

To answer your first question, i don't look at this as a division. As pointed out in my initial comment, i grew up in this so called "division" you speak of.  It didn't feel like a division at all, i was worshiping God and speaking to him from two different churches. Eluding to my previous comment on the fundamental cores of both churches, we worshiped and prayed to the same God. There wasn't a division in my mind.

Does your Protestant church offer the Eucharist?  How are Orthodox different than the Protestants, in your opinion?

Question 2: No i would not want her to convert to protestant, just like me I choose my faith based upon where i was able to connect with the father. This next comment might spark some debate, but i was unable to connect with god in the Orthodox Church. Yes i sat through the liturgy and stayed during the mass, but that PERSONAL relationship with Christ was not there. This relationship that i have with my father and my daily prayer to him is because of my attendance to the Protestant church. And this is precisely how i made my decision when i was 10 years old. If she can honestly say that she is a christian (a true follower of Christ) by attending an orthodox church, than why would i want her to convert? Can you see where i am going with this?

Not really....   Were there other factors that led you to the Protestant church at a young age?

Question 3: Yes, if i have children that is exactly what i would do. To most of you this sounds crazy. I have the most wonderful relationship with my heavenly father right now, and i consider myself a true disciple to his word. I only say this since no one on here knows who i am, so i say it not to boast but to confirm my faith in Christ. The reason i mention this is to show that my style of upbringing has given me the opportunity to have that personal relationship with Christ, a relationship that many people who call themselves Christians lack. So in short, I would like to give my children that same opportunity.

It's been discussed here about "personal" relationships one can have with God, with Jesus, etc.

Keep in mind that salvation was not for the Orthodox Christians, but Jesus came down for all of man kind.

Jesus also prayed that all may be one just as We are one (John 17:22).  I don't see the divisions into Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as fulfilling Jesus' prayer even though Roman Catholics and Protestants use this piece of Scripture in hope of some type of unity - unity of what - all faiths, all men?
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 02:22:57 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:23:48 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2013, 02:26:43 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.



Yeah, that probably has its origin in marrying Jews or something given your country's history. So I wouldn't sweat this situation too much.

'Sides, save once or twice in the history of the world, when hasn't the devil been in the bed of anyone sleeping with another?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:26:59 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 02:28:44 PM »

Yeah, that probably has its origin in marrying Jews or something given your country's history. So I wouldn't sweat this situation too much.

It actually originated with Protestant-Roman Catholic marriages. Pillarisation and all that.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2013, 02:44:28 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.

Twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen.

Maybe the first saying we learned in Dutch class.  Grin
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2013, 02:45:33 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.

Twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen.

Maybe the first saying we learned in Dutch class.  Grin

 Smiley

The saying sounds so much better in Dutch and is sadly almost intranslatable. The rhyme is wholly lost.

I'm positively impressed, Romaios.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:46:21 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2013, 02:54:29 PM »



Fundamental core of Christianity is:

There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; Galatians 4:8-9).
God is three in one or a Trinity (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; John 14:16-17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Acts 2:32-33, John 10:30,17:11, 21; 1 Peter 1:2).
God is omniscient or "knows all things" (Acts 15:18; 1 John 3:20).
God is omnipotent or "all powerful" (Psalm 115:3; Revelation 19:6).
God is omnipresent or "present everywhere" (Jeremiah 23:23, 24; Psalm 139).
God is sovereign (Zechariah 9:14; 1 Timothy 6:15-16).
God is holy (1 Peter 1:15).
God is just or "righteous" (Psalm 19:9, 116:5, 145:17; Jeremiah 12:1).
God is love (1 John 4
God is true (Romans 3:4; John 14:6).
God is spirit (John 4:24).
God is the creator of everything that exists (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24).
God is infinite and eternal. He has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Genesis 21:33; Acts 17:24).
God is immutable. He does not change (James 1:17; Malachi 3:6; Isaiah 46:9-10).
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11-12; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1, 14, 10:30-33, 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:
Jesus became a man (Philippians 2:1-11).
Jesus is fully God and fully man (Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
Jesus was sinless (1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15).
Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22).
Man was created by God in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27).
All people have sinned (Romans 3:23, 5:12).
Death came into the world through Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-15).
Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2).
Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:14; 1 Peter 2:24).
Jesus' death was a substitutionary sacrifice. He died and paid the price for our sins, so that we might live. (1 Peter 2:24; Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45).
Jesus resurrected from the dead in physical form (John 2:19-21).
Salvation is a free gift of God (Romans 4:5, 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 1:8-10).
The Bible is the "inspired" or "God-breathed," Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).
Those who reject Jesus Christ, after they die, will go to hell forever (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:
Those who accept Jesus Christ, after they die, will live for eternity with Him (John 11:25, 26; 2 Corinthians 5:6).
Hell is a place of punishment (Matthew 25:41, 46; Revelation 19:20).
Hell is eternal (Matthew 25:46).
There will be a rapture of the church (Matthew 24:30-36, 40-41; John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).
Jesus will return to the earth (Acts 1:11).


Amen. Smiley
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2013, 02:58:21 PM »

I think reciting the Nicene Creed is a much better explanation of the fundamental core of Christianity instead of some list made up by an author on christianity.about.com
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:58:44 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2013, 03:03:03 PM »

Especially since it implies that classical theist claims are expressed in prooftexts from ancient Semitic literature.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 03:03:30 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2013, 03:08:25 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.

Twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen.

Maybe the first saying we learned in Dutch class.  Grin

 Smiley

The saying sounds so much better in Dutch and is sadly almost intranslatable.

You have to be kidding . . .

In five seconds:

In the bed of separate creed is where the devil sows his seed.

Feel free to improve to upon it.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2013, 03:18:46 PM »

That's not a very precise translation, but it gets the message across.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,487



« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2013, 04:29:06 PM »

These are the fundamental cores of which both churches accept.

Nope. Copts, please correct if I'm wrong but I believe that list lacks a lots of things like the Church, sacraments, Saints etc. which are all part of fundamental core too.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 04:29:48 PM by Alpo » Logged
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2013, 05:21:02 PM »

To be really honest towards yourself and the claim you made about the faiths having the same core, which I probably agree with. Ask Pope Tawadros II about your question and explain your situation, if you are honest towards your own claim then you´ll be honest when he gives you a response Tongue

2 different things with the same core doesn´t make them identical things in any way. There are christians in the philippines who every year literally crucify 2-3 volunteers through their hands only. In the same stance as Christ used to hang they truly remind themselves of Gods unconditional love through his Son Jesus Christ as he suffered. Same core of the faiths right? =)
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2013, 05:22:31 PM »

Please forgive me if i sounded disrespectful in any way, didn´t mean anything personally but the claim could be interpreted wrongly, that´s why i commented. 
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 05:27:23 PM »

So with all due respect to your question my answer as an serbian orthodox brother, the expression of the same core is very different so that´s why the lifestyles in a long-term relationship would differ very much. As the family is very much the "little" church before God we ought to unify ourselves in such a way that nothing becomes disputable between family members. As how to pray, when, when to celebrate Christs birth, resurrection etc etc. Many things, if they would matter to the family, would in the end split it up instead of bringing it together.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2013, 05:33:35 PM »

One typical example in the "common" core of the faiths would be saints for example. Martin Luther, the core founder of Protestantism actually saw saints as people being put beside God in worship :S So being a protestant would in its true meaning be to scream idolater to a coptic christian when he/she venerates an icon of a saint. Praise God though as many protestants don´t know the true meaning of their church or its founders knowledge =)
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2013, 05:34:34 PM »

And once again, please forgive me if i in any way made a harmful or personal statement, which I tried to avoid.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2013, 08:30:52 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.
Logged
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2013, 08:32:28 PM »

And once again, please forgive me if i in any way made a harmful or personal statement, which I tried to avoid.

Jovan, i highly appreciate your respect for me in your replies. Thank you. Can you please pose an answer to the question i stated above?
Logged
Dpaula
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian w/ Romanian background
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 295


« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2013, 08:41:21 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?

« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:42:09 PM by Dpaula » Logged

Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,508



WWW
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2013, 10:52:00 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.

It is by the Grace of God alone through which we hope to gain salvation.  Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance.  We are never actually "worthy" of it.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2013, 01:13:05 AM »

I will try my best dear friend.

The question is very important and has probably always been facing Christians overall, whether only our faith brings someone to heaven. But in the same logic it would work with our faith, it same applies through the teachings of the church. We both agree the in the mass market of ideas, not only Christian can go to heaven. Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
The question is never if only Road A leads to heaven. But rather the question to be asked is: Which Road from A-C we say is the best and most safe one to follow. There needs to be an direct and true answer to that question within our church as well. Because if A-C all works then the christians in the philippines can keep on crucifying their church members and say their reasoning why they will get to heaven, and there is no grounded truth for stopping them.

So it though is with the orthodox faith, the mystery of God salvation and grace is not something we try to boil down to only within our church. BUT truthfully orthodoxy is the best, most safest and preserved way that has always been, through apostolic succession, a direct way of life through Christs church. But in the end Gods grace may be poured as it was to the thief on the cross when he cried out for mercy. But you must admit that a christian can´t say to a muslim that we all get to heaven, just pray and so forth. The same it is when a protestant belief reduces Gods grace through the full teachings of his true church. It is not the only way to heaven, but the best and always most recommended, a huge difference.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:13:44 AM by Jovan » Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Daedelus1138
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 315


« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2013, 01:47:20 AM »

I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.  

  That statement seems extreme.  It seems if we have no evidence of our justification, then that can tempt one towards despair, which is wrong, because the Bible tells us that is contrary to God's desire that sinners repent.  So clearly we can have some  assurance of our salvation.  Else what religion you are preaching is vain and empty.  If the Eucharist is not the body of Christ and we are not united to Christ and made one with him, then I think there is something wrong with the whole scheme- why bother going to your church?

  No one earns salvation, no work we do propitiates God's wrath or gives us justice before God.  God comes to us, we do not come to him.  We are the one lost sheep that the Shepherd seeks out at great risk and cost.   Salvation is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, trust in him alone... and nothing else.  We are unprofitable servants and the works we do in faith belong to God, not to us.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:57:24 AM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2013, 02:03:05 AM »

So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation?
That is not the teaching.

Protestants, Catholics, and others can be saved. But if they are saved, it is because they are united somehow to Christ's body, in this age or the next. And we identify that body with the Church. So the answer to "do you have to be Orthodox"? Yes; can that person have been a Protestant in this age? Sure, I don't see why not.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 02:03:37 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2013, 01:40:15 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2013, 01:42:49 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.

If you care to learn what the Church is let me know.

Once you hit about 1k posts with 30% of them being of relative substance, I'll clue you in on how Orthodoxy understands what the Church is.

Has nothing to do with walls.

Till then, enjoy the crypto-proselytizing.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »

I will try my best dear friend.

The question is very important and has probably always been facing Christians overall, whether only our faith brings someone to heaven. But in the same logic it would work with our faith, it same applies through the teachings of the church. We both agree the in the mass market of ideas, not only Christian can go to heaven. Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
The question is never if only Road A leads to heaven. But rather the question to be asked is: Which Road from A-C we say is the best and most safe one to follow. There needs to be an direct and true answer to that question within our church as well. Because if A-C all works then the christians in the philippines can keep on crucifying their church members and say their reasoning why they will get to heaven, and there is no grounded truth for stopping them.

So it though is with the orthodox faith, the mystery of God salvation and grace is not something we try to boil down to only within our church. BUT truthfully orthodoxy is the best, most safest and preserved way that has always been, through apostolic succession, a direct way of life through Christs church. But in the end Gods grace may be poured as it was to the thief on the cross when he cried out for mercy. But you must admit that a christian can´t say to a muslim that we all get to heaven, just pray and so forth. The same it is when a protestant belief reduces Gods grace through the full teachings of his true church. It is not the only way to heaven, but the best and always most recommended, a huge difference.

You see, this is an answer i highly respect. Jovan your replies on these forums are possibly the best i have ever read. You talk with such respect and consideration for others, that i can see Christ in your life. Its amazing, considering i am only reading a thread, but i really can. Just wanted to mention that to you before I tell you how I disagree with you Tongue

Im glad you feel that the Orthodox Christian path is not the only path to salvation as Gods grace and mercy is the same for all of mankind. Where i disagree with you is the "but the best and always most recommended". I agree with you, the Orthodox Church is a great path for acquiring salvation, but why do we necessarily have to label it as the best? Im sure that there are many OC who will not enter heaven, as they have been living the "OC lifestyle" by name and not by true faith and works. This is also the case for Protestant Christians, who label themselves Christian, but do not bear fruit to prove it. Why than does one have to better than another?

Dont want to put words in your mouth but you will probably say: Anonymous that protestant faith "dilutes the truth of god". The full truth is only found in the Orthodox Church, the real church, the FIRST church (i had to throw that in there Smiley. My question to you is why does god grant us "protestants" salvation in the first place? Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end? Is it that risky that i have to tell myself that i must convert? In the end, shouldn't i look at my personal life, with honesty, and ask myself where my faith is? If it isnt where it needs to be, than maybe its time to find a new church that can touch my heart. In the end its your works and faith that sets where you spend your eternity. Not, which church you happen to attend that can give you better ODDS of accessing heaven. Salvation isnt a poker game.
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2013, 02:10:56 PM »

Salvation isnt a poker game.

Seems like Pascal and God have disagreed at times.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 734


Out of This World


« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2013, 02:20:46 PM »

Im glad you feel that the Orthodox Christian path is not the only path to salvation as Gods grace and mercy is the same for all of mankind. Where i disagree with you is the "but the best and always most recommended". I agree with you, the Orthodox Church is a great path for acquiring salvation, but why do we necessarily have to label it as the best? Im sure that there are many OC who will not enter heaven, as they have been living the "OC lifestyle" by name and not by true faith and works. This is also the case for Protestant Christians, who label themselves Christian, but do not bear fruit to prove it. Why than does one have to better than another?

Dont want to put words in your mouth but you will probably say: Anonymous that protestant faith "dilutes the truth of god". The full truth is only found in the Orthodox Church, the real church, the FIRST church (i had to throw that in there Smiley. My question to you is why does god grant us "protestants" salvation in the first place? Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end? Is it that risky that i have to tell myself that i must convert? In the end, shouldn't i look at my personal life, with honesty, and ask myself where my faith is? If it isnt where it needs to be, than maybe its time to find a new church that can touch my heart. In the end its your works and faith that sets where you spend your eternity. Not, which church you happen to attend that can give you better ODDS of accessing heaven. Salvation isnt a poker game.

I apologize for piggy-backing on your discussion with Jovan, but this is my response:

Christ founded a Church. He desired that all would be in it. If you truly believe this Church to be the Holy Orthodox Church (which I do), you would be a fool (or worse) not to try to join it. This does not mean that those who, for whatever reason, do not enter the Church in their lifetimes will see damnation. But it means that those who do enter the Church do so (one would hope) to follow their Lord and Savior.

Orthodoxy is the fullness of faith (and yes, a Roman Catholic would say the same about Catholicism). Christ wants his followers to be in His Body, the Church, where they are to receive the sacraments and live in communion with Him.
Logged
Dpaula
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian w/ Romanian background
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 295


« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2013, 02:37:06 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.

I'm sorry, but you're not new to this.
You say you've been raised Orthodox and Protestant. So you're not new. Don't play this card.
I saw you asked the same exact question on another thread and a moderator told you that part of the forum is not where you should ask this question. Then you come here, go around the bush about some orthodox girl, when in the end all you wanted was to bring us to the same question you posted on the other thread, so you can start your bashing of Orthodoxy.
So don't tell me you're new.

And yes....that's exactly what I said....it's God's mercy. End of discussion.

And no, I'm not talking about four walls. But your definition of Church is so far off, that it's practically impossible to explain it to you on a forum. I suggest you go talk to a priest, IF you're serious about it. Otherwise, I won't allow you to treat Orthodox people like we're some kind of selfish, ignorant people that don't want anybody else in Heaven with them. Please....
Logged

Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2013, 04:01:16 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.
God's word says:
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We can indeed know we are saved. Salvation is for 'whosoever.'
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's word says we cannot earn our salvation through anything.

Ephesians 2 v8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Quote
  Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance. 
This is not scriptural - refer above verses. According to you, you are doomed to a life of uncertainty. You might never abide by enough statutes. In fact if you are counting on keeping the law to save you, scripture says you will never be good enough. That's why Jesus died for your sins. He paid the price for you. He said on the cross 'It is finished.' He accomplished everything. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is his gift which he offers to you.
 
Quote
We are never actually "worthy" of it.
This is correct.


[/quote]
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2013, 04:08:10 PM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.



Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2013, 06:28:15 PM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


I appreciate your direct and well noted answer dear Rachel Smiley I would though want some kind of reason behind your interpretation of that verse. If you want to reduce Gods grace to a interpretation of your own, I fully respect that with love my friend. But you will have to take a very strong leap of faith in many occasions. For example, did every single person who got baptized by John the baptist know that Jesus Christ,the eternal begotten Son of God, who was born in the flesh in Nazareth, by the virgin Mary, that he was the only way, truth and life, and that through him all can come to the Father? These were Jews being baptized because they knew that Gods grace was about to explode in Israel, not that they could quote John 14:6 Tongue

You have to answer me this, with all due respect:

1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
2) If someone didn´t know about Jesus, but through the proclaiming words of John the Baptist, knew that Gods plan for salvation and everlasting grace would soon occur. Would he/she still not get to heaven?

Finally, my only response would actually be this. For one to fully know Gods tremendous grace and how it works today, and through history, through different perspective. One has to be God to understand it clearly from 1 single verse from the Bible. If im wrong, please just answer my questions from scripture. Or else you can just "assume" that John baptized and did the work that Jesus just repeated some years after, so that all the baptized jews could get saved Tongue Gods grace doesn´t boil down to such a simple answer.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2013, 07:35:57 PM »

You see, this is an answer i highly respect. Jovan your replies on these forums are possibly the best i have ever read. You talk with such respect and consideration for others, that i can see Christ in your life. Its amazing, considering i am only reading a thread, but i really can. Just wanted to mention that to you before I tell you how I disagree with you Tongue

First and most important my friend and brother/sister in the faith. I by myself can´t thank you enough but only pray that God may grant you the best of his blessing for the loving response. Appreciate it a lot, I´m just a sinner trying to grasp 0.001% of Gods loving truth. Your encouraging words got me 99 entire % closer to the full truth of his love, hehe Cheesy

I will try to respond as briefly as I can to some things that I feel are very necessary to discuss more about. To the issue of which way/path/life is considered a true and holy one before God, and through which church.
What I tried to do in my earlier response was to emphasize on the logical necessity of only 1 way in acquiring salvation before God. It may sound as a very harsh idea, that the orthodox church, hold to the most grounded,truthful and entire way of life before God. But lets turn the perspective a bit more, what if we asked Christ about the issue. Christ, please show and reveal the entire truth of your way and how I can follow it most safely. Christ would never answer the question in the same manner as we humans sometimes would like it to sound. In the light of ALL the different churches, and ALL the teachings. Which ones would Christ reasonable put forth as necessarily things in life that would grant a human the best chance to reunite with him in heaven.

With a example from the churches for example:

A: Would Christ actually urge us to pray for each other, not just on earth, but also through the persons in union with the one body of Christ in heaven?

B: Or would Jesus Christ in full union with his true body just say, do never ever ask for a saint in heaven to pray for you. You will be drawn further away from me!

You probably grasp the point by now dear friend. Martin Luther, the reformer and therefore the foundation of the protestant church, said that using the saints in prayer, in asking for help before God, was a heretical idea. In the other end the orthodox church firmly and always believed that saints, their prayers and we asking them for their prayers are a very recommendable way to come closer to Gods salvation, God willing only. Both A and B can´t both be correct, Christ can´t never urge both ways to be true ones before him.

Furthermore, many other issues can brought forth. The most important thing from this discussion must be, there can only be one way that Christ can recommend. He can´t be pluralistic and yet exluding things from his truth or church. One verse from scripture that I always loved is from Jude, which gives a hint to a faith/way/path that was entrusted to us from God, not a faith/way/path that we ourselves were to experiment with Tongue

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it. Yet we sit here and discuss that expression of faith that actually should be very clear to us according to Jude. Question is, where is the fullness of that faith that was entrusted?


Quote
My question to you is why does god grant us "protestants" salvation in the first place? Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end? Is it that risky that i have to tell myself that i must convert?

My answer to these questions will be much the same. Who am I, a slothful and evil sinner before God, to judge without any power to do it? I can´t speak on the behalf of my own name about salvation, as it is a bigger mystery that only God can handle within his full nature. Therefore if someone is saved or not, is not up to me, you or nobody else to answer. I can only give a path for which I know that God can fully work out his plan for salvation. I would rewrite your first question like this:

Has God granted all protestants a total way of life, from 1-10, which is recommendable not on our terms, but on Gods? Or does every single generation have to figure it out according to the culture of that time?

The same question I put forward to the orthodox church:
Has God granted all orthodox a total way of life, from 1-10, which is recommendable not on our terms, but on Gods? Or does every single generation have to figure it out according to the culture of that time?

I think that the different answer to these questions pretty much talks for themselves. 2 different ways cannot both be 100% before God, either A is 100%, B is not. There would not be A and B, but just one A if Protestantism and Orthodoxy were the same things.

Quote
Do you really think the protestant path is not good enough to grant us salvation in the end?

I cannot judge for every single case, I would once again need to be God. I can though ask you this question in response.

Christians in the philippines, who crucify 2-3 church members (only through their hands) each year at lent, do you really think that their path isn´t good enough to grant them salvation in the end?

Whatever the answer may be, the question always boils down to if something is right or wrong. If the church always expressed its faith through other ways than crucifying its members, then that should be kept. Not because we want it, but because God wants it as the full path that the apostles came forth with from Christ.

If the church always had only male priests in their clergy. But what authority can Martin Luther now start a movement that nowadays accepts female priests in the clergy? Or encourages the protestant church not to ask saints for their prayers, while the church before that always did.

I hope my answers/examples were not to fuzzy, please please please forgive me if they were. Just wanted to give different perspectives on questions which normally may seem pretty obvious. Once again dear brother/sister, I pray that God blesses you both here and hereafter for the loving words you gave. I am 100% sure that the virgin Mary with all the saints close to the Lord asks him to grant the best of blessings upon you Cheesy
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 07:44:40 PM by Jovan » Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2013, 07:37:33 PM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?



I chuckled and laughed at your reply. Please dont take offense to that. So again, im new to this so please bare with me. You are simply saying that :

A) An orthodox Christian will gain salvation through his faith and works. But....
B) A protestant Christian, who is a true believer based upon his faith and works, will only be granted salvation through Gods mercy...

I know this is a little extreme but this reminded me of the practice of indulgence by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's which were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven.

Your reply is honestly ridiculous since salvation is not based upon which four walls you enter every Sunday, but based upon faith and works alone.

I'm sorry, but you're not new to this.
You say you've been raised Orthodox and Protestant. So you're not new. Don't play this card.
I saw you asked the same exact question on another thread and a moderator told you that part of the forum is not where you should ask this question. Then you come here, go around the bush about some orthodox girl, when in the end all you wanted was to bring us to the same question you posted on the other thread, so you can start your bashing of Orthodoxy.
So don't tell me you're new.

And yes....that's exactly what I said....it's God's mercy. End of discussion.

And no, I'm not talking about four walls. But your definition of Church is so far off, that it's practically impossible to explain it to you on a forum. I suggest you go talk to a priest, IF you're serious about it. Otherwise, I won't allow you to treat Orthodox people like we're some kind of selfish, ignorant people that don't want anybody else in Heaven with them. Please....

I like you, your fear and paranoia of me, I find really amusing. I have so many things to say I dont even know where to start. Number 1) what I meant by I'm new to this, is that I am new to the fourm. As u can see this is my 11th posting and I'm already being jumped on haha...that I also fiand amusing. Number 2) I really had this question I originally posted in mind...and yes I roamed around the site and found other threads and read them and replied to them, jut like you do good sir. I happened to reply to one posting and the moderator told me I can't bring up topics like that on that specific forum hence me warning everyone that I'm new to this and still a newbiee. Its my reading of that fourm that sparked the second question i asked here.If u care to even investigate you can check the time stamps and verify that I posted this question before I tried commenting on that other forum you saw my reply on. I also find it really funny how you are charging me and accessing me of trying talk badly to OC people and bring them down.#3 If you could so kindly quote me in a single instance of bashing anyone, that would be great. #4 I love how you are running away from a debate with the whole "you're so dumb, I can't even explain it to you on here technique" it was pretty cute to read. Lastly good sir, I suggest you have more respect and compassion like Jovan when trying to debate a protestant online in the Protestant section of the forum. Isn't that what this section is used for? Or am I doing something wrong as your accusations made me feel like a criminal spying and sneaking around trying to trick people. May the peace of Christ be with you. Have a good day.
Logged
Dpaula
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian w/ Romanian background
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 295


« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2013, 07:54:47 PM »

I am a woman.

Bye!
Logged

Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2013, 07:56:18 PM »

These are the fundamental cores of which both churches accept.

Nope. Copts, please correct if I'm wrong but I believe that list lacks a lots of things like the Church, sacraments, Saints etc. which are all part of fundamental core too.
You are absolutely right.

Please anonymous, if you are insistent on remaining in your current Protestant sect then marry one of your own. Do not look for an Orthodox girl and drag her and her future children into this. If you wish to marry a Coptic Orthodox girl then return to the fold of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic ORTHODOX Church and repent of your apostasy.

The Orthodox Church is the one and only true Christian Church. Protestantism is a watered-down and shallow version of Christianity which cannot trace its history back more than 500 years, whereas Orthodoxy was founded the Holy Apostles. Reading the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers makes this all the more evident.

Sorry if this seems blunt, but I can't really think of any other way to put it.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2013, 08:05:33 PM »

You have to really forgive me now anonymous, I totally forgot that It was you who started this thread, thought my responses here was from old. So please forgive me, I became totally unaware of your situation within the family when i responded. Hope my answers did some help anyways, the answers remains, my sinful attitude can be reduced!!!
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
anonymous
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant
Jurisdiction: Anon
Posts: 12


« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2013, 11:08:30 PM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.

Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2013, 11:21:32 PM »

I am a woman.

Bye!

^-----Every experience I've had with a would be paramour.

*sigh*
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,171


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2013, 12:20:46 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Perhaps you didn't see my question to you towards the beginning of the thread.  Given your original post, I asked out of genuine curiosity that day itself why you were interested in marrying a Coptic girl in the first place.  But of all the things "debated" or referred to in this thread since then (seriously, the Rapture?), this question seems to be the one that hasn't been addressed. 

Seeing how the thread has developed, maybe that was on purpose.   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
adampjr
Karamazov
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 89


Penguin


« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2013, 01:09:24 AM »

I hope to not come off as rude. But, why is my only option to go back to the Orthodox Church?

The first question to ask yourself would be if she's willing to live with a divided religious family (e.g. you as Protestant and she as Coptic Orthodox)?

Second question - would you want to convert her to Protestant faith?

Third question - if you have children - would you expose them to both faiths as the case with your upbringing?

If you, ahem, found your way back to the Coptic Orthodox Church, then some of the questions are answered or go away completely.

These questions are not impossible either though. I assum you turned out alright and I know many people who did as well from similar divided Christian families. When the parents are loving, these issues are not hard to deal with.
Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2013, 01:25:50 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.
Logged

Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2013, 01:26:59 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.
+1
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
adampjr
Karamazov
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 89


Penguin


« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2013, 01:30:22 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
Logged
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2013, 01:32:41 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2013, 01:41:25 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:42:13 AM by dzheremi » Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2013, 01:45:06 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2013, 01:51:43 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.
You know very well that in the context of this thread "Orthodox" refers to primarily to the OO Church being that the OP was an apostate from Coptic Orthodoxy to Protestantism.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 01:55:28 AM by Severian » Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
lovesupreme
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 734


Out of This World


« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2013, 02:15:05 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.

Come on, now. We're just validating anonymous's views that we're all argumentative frustraters. Tongue
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2013, 02:18:27 AM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.
God's word says:
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We can indeed know we are saved. Salvation is for 'whosoever.'
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's word says we cannot earn our salvation through anything.

Ephesians 2 v8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Quote
 Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance.
This is not scriptural - refer above verses.
So we are not to obey Christ if we hope to be saved?

According to you, you are doomed to a life of uncertainty.
Better uncertainty than complacency.

You might never abide by enough statutes. In fact if you are counting on keeping the law to save you, scripture says you will never be good enough.
So you equate obedience to Christ's statutes with trust that the law will save us?

That's why Jesus died for your sins. He paid the price for you. He said on the cross 'It is finished.' He accomplished everything. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is his gift which he offers to you.
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
 
Quote
We are never actually "worthy" of it.
This is correct.
What is not correct is your straw man images of what we Orthodox believe. Then again, Rachel, if you enjoy knocking down straw men, then knock yourself out.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:19:00 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
adampjr
Karamazov
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 89


Penguin


« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2013, 02:20:06 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.

What then does the CC demand, divorce?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2013, 02:29:01 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator
Please do not chastise the moderators publicly for actions they take on this forum. Consider this your first warning that scolding the moderators in this way or publicly disputing or questioning their actions is the best way to get yourself in deep trouble on this forum. If you wish to dispute or question a moderator's actions, please do so only via private message.

From the Rules Page
Quote
* Respect the mod/admin staff -- The moderators and administrative staff of oc.net keep this place running tidy.  While you don't have to agree with a particular decision they make, we ask that you at least respect it publicly.  Do not complain about forum moderation, or the specific official actions taken by the moderators, global moderators, or administrators, on the forum.

BTW, seeing that you admit to being new here, I urge you to read the Forum Rules Page in full before you submit any more posts to this forum.

- PeterTheAleut
Orthodox-Protestant Discussion Moderator
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:34:18 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2013, 02:39:40 AM »

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.

HG Bishop Youssef explains that "if someone marries outside of the Church, he/she is not permitted to partake of the Holy Eucharist in the church even if he/she does not convert to a different denomination." It's very clear. No marriage outside of the Church for Coptic people (not even to EO, unless you're marrying a Greek within the Patriarchal territory of Alexandria, for which there is a different rule due to the large number of mixed Coptic-Greek couples at that particular location; at any rate, this would not affect our Protestant friend).

To be fair, he is talking about Orthodoxy, not Oriental Christianity, if you can even lump all those groups under one term.

Come on, now. We're just validating anonymous's views that we're all argumentative frustraters. Tongue
To you and orthonorm both: anonymous did speak specifically of marrying a Coptic Orthodox girl, so this is an issue pertaining specifically to Protestant/Coptic Orthodox relations. Please do not encourage any EO-OO polemics on this thread. Further attempts to do so will be met as attempts to drive this thread off topic.
Logged
Dpaula
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian w/ Romanian background
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 295


« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2013, 09:08:09 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.



Well now, hold on a second.
Who said anything about a debate? This thread was not created to have a debate, or was it? ? ? ?
You simply asked if you should even bother trying to have a relationship with an Orthodox girl? Many people here, genuinely, replied to your question. Nobody was debating anything, they just answered your question, from an Orthodox perspective, of course. But you proceeded to ask us (out of nowhere) if we believe the Orthodox are the only ones being saved. This had nothing to do with the subject of this thread you created yourself. Let me ask you, were you really interested in finding out the answer to this question or you just wanted to create a debate? ? ? And if you honestly wanted to find out what you should do about this girl, I sincerely apologize and I hope you forgive me for my attitude in my posts. But to be completely honest, so far, you haven't proved you are really interested in the future of this girl, since you haven't even mentioned her anymore. On top of this, you are upset, we're not properly debating you and we are not trying the right way to convert you. HuH? ? ?
I wasn't even aware that I was actually trying to convert you. I'm not on this forum to debate, nor to convert anyone.
I am here to interact with my Orthodox brothers and sisters, to learn from them, to get advice. And if I should desire to debate, I'd debate only with them, since we actually speak the same -Orthodox- language. There's no point debating with you since you don't understand what I'm saying.

So let's get this straight....
Are you here to debate or to learn about what Orthodoxy teaches?
Did you start this particular thread because you really care about the future of this girl or what you really wanted was to start a debate?
Logged

Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2013, 09:18:59 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.



Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2013, 09:39:05 AM »

We Orthodox brothers/sister, with great respect and love, no one take me wrong, I´m the one who needs to remember this prayer the most in my daily life. But how much we may we twist and turn the threads, the attitude of them or the themes of them we have to remember this prayer, it is really important, with most aim at myself. Please forgive me if this was a unnecessary post, but I though had to remember myself of it.

A part from the Prayerbook included in the orthodox study bible. The part is under "Prayer for the beginning of the day".

"Teach me to treat all that comes to me throughout the day with peace of soul and with firm conviction that Your will governs all. In all my deeds and words, guide my thoughts and feelings. In unforeseen events, let me not forget that all are sent by You. Teach me to act firmly and wisely, without embittering and embarrassing others."
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2013, 10:05:28 AM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.

What then does the CC demand, divorce?

That people within the communion marry within the communion.
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,172


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2013, 10:25:37 AM »

Anon, might I ask what protestant church you attend (or denomination) if I missed it, sorry.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
adampjr
Karamazov
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 89


Penguin


« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2013, 10:26:31 AM »

Just wanted to point out that no one wants to have a decent and thoughtful debate except Jovan. Every other Orthodox on here wants to get frustrated at me, telling me how the Orthodox Church was the first Church. Its time you put the frustration to the side and have a decent respectful debate.

Dpaula, you made your point loud and clear. You just want to throw your hands up in the air, make false accusations, and expect people to convert without debating. Im sure you will convert a lot of people with that method. (sorry for the sarcasm)

Also wanted to point out that this forum is completely biased when it comes to people expressing their views. If a protestant gets out of line, the moderator jumps in immediately, as in a few cases i saw with Rachel and another protestant expressing his views. I havent seen the moderator jump in once for this forum when many Orthodox brothers and sisters have crossed the line much farther than Rachel posts. Pretty sad to see that. Yes, im talking to you Mr. Moderator

Jovan i really appreciate your long and very detailed respond to my post. You have no idea how much I enjoyed reading it. I will need some time to reply as i want to make my post as detailed as yours and lay out all the ground points to my argument. I seriously cant thank you enough for the respect you show and they way you convey yourself. Its people like you that make debating worthwhile and meaningful. I want to point out publicly that I have already learned a lot from you. But there is much more we still need to discuss. I will have a reply by tomorrow night.



Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.

Exactly.

Ano, If you want debate with a wide variety of Protestant Christians (as well as one or two Orthodox, plus myself, and a handful Catholics), head on over to BibleForums.org. It's a great forum, it's Protestant, and I have to be respectful there of their views as non-Orthodox are to be respectful here. I like a lot of the folks over there, and that might be more the type of place you are looking for.
Logged
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »

What makes you think you would be allowed to marry a Coptic Orthodox lady in the first place, as a non-Orthodox person? To do so would place her outside of the Church (deprive her of the sacraments), and you're not in the Church in the first place, so...how is this supposed to work? It's bad enough that you left the Church in favor of Protestantism. Do not take others down with you.

I don't know if this is universally true, I know of more than a few Orthodox-non-Orthodox marriages, in which I thought the Orthodox party takes part in the sacraments still.
In the Coptic Church such nonsense is (thankfully) not allowed.

What then does the CC demand, divorce?
The Coptic Church would not allow the marriage to take place to begin with.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,171


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2013, 08:19:35 PM »

The Coptic Church would not allow the marriage to take place to begin with.

This is fairly standard throughout the Oriental Orthodox Churches.  In the Church in India, for instance, the non-Orthodox person has to convert, or the marriage does not happen in the Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox party going through a non-Orthodox ceremony is considered to have excommunicated himself/herself.  At present, there isn't a middle ground.  It's theologically sound, if not always "nice".  I have issues with it, not for the theology, but because of the cultural standards which are often at play and make problems where there need not be any.     

I would've imagined that this form of "strictness" would've been traditional for the EO as well, even if more exceptions are granted nowadays for pastoral reasons.  Perhaps we'll get to that point too, but for now, intermarriage is addressed with strictness.   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2013, 08:24:44 PM »

^I am relieved that this is the case. I was actually under the impression that the Indian Orthodox permitted such inter-faith "marriages." I am very pleased to hear this is not true.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,171


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2013, 08:43:12 PM »

Well, it depends on how you define "interfaith marriages".  There are plenty of mixed marriages, in large part because of the cultural forces at work within the community, and this brings its own pastoral problems (perhaps a thread on the OO treatment of this issue would be the best place to discuss these details).  But from a sacramental, canonical perspective, there is no such thing as a mixed marriage: we only marry two Orthodox, or we don't marry at all. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2013, 08:44:33 PM »

Well, it depends on how you define "interfaith marriages".  There are plenty of mixed marriages, in large part because of the cultural forces at work within the community, and this brings its own pastoral problems (perhaps a thread on the OO treatment of this issue would be the best place to discuss these details).  But from a sacramental, canonical perspective, there is no such thing as a mixed marriage: we only marry two Orthodox, or we don't marry at all. 
By "inter-faith" I meant when one party is Orthodox and the other is not.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,171


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2013, 08:59:58 PM »

Yeah, that doesn't happen, not from a sacramental/canonical perspective anyway.  But that doesn't mean that, on those occasions when the non-Orthodox party converts to marry the Orthodox party, it is done purely out of conviction.  More often than not, it's something to get out of the way in order to get married in the Church, and functionally the marriage is mixed anyway. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2013, 09:01:05 PM »

Yeah, that doesn't happen, not from a sacramental/canonical perspective anyway.  But that doesn't mean that, on those occasions when the non-Orthodox party converts to marry the Orthodox party, it is done purely out of conviction.  More often than not, it's something to get out of the way in order to get married in the Church, and functionally the marriage is mixed anyway. 
Understood.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,158



« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2013, 03:18:13 AM »

Hello,

   Let me give you all a brief background of my life. I was baptized Coptic orthodox but grew up attending both the protestant and Coptic orthodox church. (Dad was protestant, mom was Coptic orthodox.) I want to inform the reader that this did not harshly impact my life at all. I grew up in a loving caring family, and we all attended both churches regularly. Yes, my Sundays consisted of Coptic church in the morning, followed by protestant church in the evening. And yes, Sundays was not a day i would look forward to as a child, considering i was in church for half the day.
      None the less, looking back at it now, I'm glad i went through that experience since i got to be indulged into both cultures and both styles of worshiping the father. I completely understand the differences between both of these radically different sectors of Christianity, But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change. At the age of ten, i leaned over to being protestant, a decision my parents respected, and have mainly attended protestant church ever since. I still visit the orthodox church and enjoy their biblical studies as well as their liturgy from time to time. They know my story very well, and have accepted me into their group, something most Orthodox churches wouldn't do with a "protestant kid".  I am good friends with most of the youth there and have grown close with almost all of them.
        I know marrying a girl from the Coptic Church would be difficult considering my situation. But how difficult would it be? I'm hoping i can find someone on here, that has gone through my experiences and can explain to me the hurdles and struggles i will probably have to endure in order to marry a Coptic girl. I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.

You're Protestant. I thought the Coptic church would not allow non-Orthodox to marry in it.
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2013, 03:42:54 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."

Is this the Orthodox idea of Jesus' command to go into the world and preach the gospel? Shame on you both.
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2013, 03:44:30 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."

Is this the Orthodox idea of Jesus' command to go into the world and preach the gospel? Shame on you both.


 Grin I love you, Rachel.  I love seeing your name pop up because it brings a smile to my face.  But if you want to proselytize me, I am politely telling you to bugger off.  Kiss

I don't mind an exchange of info if you are seeking more info on Orthodoxy or if I have question about how your faith may view something, but encouraging Orthodox members to abandon the Church and go trapsing off after some neo-evangelical nonsense is not the purpose of this forum.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:56:55 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2013, 03:54:18 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."

Is this the Orthodox idea of Jesus' command to go into the world and preach the gospel? Shame on you both.


 Grin I love you, Rachel.  I love seeing your name pop up because it brings a smile to my face.  But if you want to proselytize me, I am politely telling you to bugger off.  Kiss
I think it is impossible to politely tell someone to 'bugger off.' Discussion means, you put your point of view, I put mine. Could I politely suggest that if you don't like reading Protestant points of view then perhaps the 'Orthodox-Protestant area of this forum is a section you might like to avoid. But hopefully you'll want to stay around.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:58:42 PM by rachel » Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2013, 03:59:16 PM »

I probably should not have modified my response above, here it is:

I don't mind an exchange of info if you are seeking more info on Orthodoxy or if I have question about how your faith may view something, but encouraging Orthodox members to abandon the Church and go trapsing off after some neo-evangelical nonsense is not the purpose of this forum, even in the Orthodox-Protestant discussion area.  That is what I mean by proselytizing.

Oh, and I can tell someone politely to bugger off. I just did.  Wink
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2013, 04:01:25 PM »

I sort of like a good debate once in a while.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »

 Grin Bugger off, Cyrillic  Grin

j/k, don't. I like your posts
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:05:40 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2013, 04:11:24 PM »

I guess I'll have to pack my stuff...

 Smiley
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,896



« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2013, 04:21:09 PM »

I will clarify, Rachel.

I don't have a problem with a vigorous debate on the merits of different positions.  YeshuaisIam does that and (IMHO) is very respectful about Orthodox teaching and is not trying to convince others to believe what he says.  That is quite different from someone coming on to this forum, even in the Orthodox-Protestant subforum, and trying to convince inquirers, catechumens, and Orthodox that the Church should be abandoned.  Debate = good.  Proselytizing = not good.

And I still love seeing you post.  It makes me happy.  Smiley
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #102 on: May 17, 2013, 04:26:55 PM »

Perhaps it would be helpful to remember that you are on an ORTHODOX forum.  There are millions of protestant forums and inter-religion forums on the internet if you are advocating vigorous debate.  We don't mind having conversations with people who come here and are interested in learning more about Orthodoxy, but it can be a tiny bit wearying to have random "soulwinners" show up and try to convince us that we are going to hell because we don't believe in sola scriptura or some other nonsense.  If we wanted to be proselytized to, we would go join some other religious forum.  I can't speak for others, but I am here to talk to others about Orthodoxy, not constantly sift through arguments with the Church of the Month Club.  If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, that is great and many here will help you in that process, but if you want to just proselytize, we politely request you bugger off.
Whilst the above was not addressed personally to myself, the post referred to is in a section of the site called 'Orthodox-Protestant discussion.' The section is not called 'Orthodox-Orthodox discussion. Your comment, and I quote, "we politely request you bugger off," can hardly be termed polite! Is this a reflection of the depth of your faith?
Likewise PetertheAleut suggested to me that I "knock myself out."
You've never heard the American English idiom "knock yourself out" before? It means "go right ahead" or "feel free".

"Can I have a piece of cake?"

"Of course! Knock yourself out!" = "Of course! Feel free to eat as much as you want!"
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:31:19 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Clemente
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Europe
Posts: 223


« Reply #103 on: May 17, 2013, 04:31:12 PM »

We have a saying in the Netherlands:

Two religions on one bed - the devil sleeps in between.

Twee geloven op één kussen, daar slaapt de duivel tussen.

Maybe the first saying we learned in Dutch class.  Grin

 Smiley

The saying sounds so much better in Dutch and is sadly almost intranslatable.

You have to be kidding . . .

In five seconds:

In the bed of separate creed is where the devil sows his seed.

Feel free to improve to upon it.

My, well done mate. Very good!
Logged
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2013, 10:02:00 AM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


I appreciate your direct and well noted answer dear Rachel Smiley I would though want some kind of reason behind your interpretation of that verse. If you want to reduce Gods grace to a interpretation of your own, I fully respect that with love my friend. But you will have to take a very strong leap of faith in many occasions. For example, did every single person who got baptized by John the baptist know that Jesus Christ,the eternal begotten Son of God, who was born in the flesh in Nazareth, by the virgin Mary, that he was the only way, truth and life, and that through him all can come to the Father? These were Jews being baptized because they knew that Gods grace was about to explode in Israel, not that they could quote John 14:6 Tongue
Throughout scripture we see that a relationship with God is based on faith. So that those people who were baptised in faith by John the Baptist are in the same position as the Old Testament saints.



Quote
1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
Given the closeness in time between the ministries of John and Jesus it is likely that many people who were baptised by John came to a faith in Jesus. That is why John was said to be "preparing the way" for him.

Quote
2) If someone didn´t know about Jesus, but through the proclaiming words of John the Baptist, knew that Gods plan for salvation and everlasting grace would soon occur. Would he/she still not get to heaven?
The answer is yes if they came by faith just as Abraham, Joshua and David had a relationship with God even though God's plan of salvation through Jesus was not known to the Old Testament saints. This also tells you that baptism is not the basis for salvation.

Quote
Finally, my only response would actually be this. For one to fully know Gods tremendous grace and how it works today, and through history, through different perspective. One has to be God to understand it clearly from 1 single verse from the Bible.
Of course God does not expect us to understand himself from one single verse. If that were the case he would only have given us one verse. The message that salvation is of faith is not simply given in one verse. Some examples:
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Romans 5:2
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved


Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2013, 10:06:40 AM »

Faith is more than mere intellectual assent to the dogmas of Christianity. Faith is a life in Christ. Faith without works is dead.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2013, 10:14:54 AM »


A: Would Christ actually urge us to pray for each other, not just on earth, but also through the persons in union with the one body of Christ in heaven?
Please provide an example from scripture where Christ says this.

Quote
B: Or would Jesus Christ in full union with his true body just say, do never ever ask for a saint in heaven to pray for you. You will be drawn further away from me!
We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.




Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2013, 10:19:39 AM »

Gods grace, which in its entirely form is an mystery to us, will be poured out on tons of people who may have just asked a God to rescue them, but not literally Jesus Christ our savior.
Well this is not scriptural. God's word says:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


I appreciate your direct and well noted answer dear Rachel Smiley I would though want some kind of reason behind your interpretation of that verse. If you want to reduce Gods grace to a interpretation of your own, I fully respect that with love my friend. But you will have to take a very strong leap of faith in many occasions. For example, did every single person who got baptized by John the baptist know that Jesus Christ,the eternal begotten Son of God, who was born in the flesh in Nazareth, by the virgin Mary, that he was the only way, truth and life, and that through him all can come to the Father? These were Jews being baptized because they knew that Gods grace was about to explode in Israel, not that they could quote John 14:6 Tongue
Throughout scripture we see that a relationship with God is based on faith. So that those people who were baptised in faith by John the Baptist are in the same position as the Old Testament saints.



Quote
1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
Given the closeness in time between the ministries of John and Jesus it is likely that many people who were baptised by John came to a faith in Jesus. That is why John was said to be "preparing the way" for him.

Quote
2) If someone didn´t know about Jesus, but through the proclaiming words of John the Baptist, knew that Gods plan for salvation and everlasting grace would soon occur. Would he/she still not get to heaven?
The answer is yes if they came by faith just as Abraham, Joshua and David had a relationship with God even though God's plan of salvation through Jesus was not known to the Old Testament saints. This also tells you that baptism is not the basis for salvation.

Quote
Finally, my only response would actually be this. For one to fully know Gods tremendous grace and how it works today, and through history, through different perspective. One has to be God to understand it clearly from 1 single verse from the Bible.
Of course God does not expect us to understand himself from one single verse. If that were the case he would only have given us one verse. The message that salvation is of faith is not simply given in one verse. Some examples:
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Romans 5:2
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved



You do realize, Rachel, that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that baptism will save anyone apart from the context of a life of faith? If one who is baptized then lives his life in a way that totally renounces his baptism, he will not be saved. In fact, he will likely be worse off at the last judgment than he who was never baptized.
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2013, 10:25:51 AM »


We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Sophistry pure and simple. With the same 'argument' one could condemn asking others to pray for you.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2013, 10:29:38 AM »


We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Sophistry pure and simple. With the same 'argument' one could condemn asking others to pray for you.
+1.
Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2013, 10:52:56 AM »

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it.
God's holy people are all those who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Quote
Christians in the philippines, who crucify 2-3 church members (only through their hands) each year at lent, do you really think that their path isn´t good enough to grant them salvation in the end?

Well nowhere do we read that this is something God wants his people to do. What purpose does this serve? You are talking again of 'a path being good enough to grant them salvation.' Salvation has nothing to do with our being good enough. We can never be good enough. That is why Christ died for us. It is all his doing. We can never be good enough to earn our salvation.
Romans 5:15-18
But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,  not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,  whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Quote
Whatever the answer may be, the question always boils down to if something is right or wrong.
And we know what is right or wrong by turning to God's word not to any church traditions. Even during the time of the apostles we read of error being preached. Just because a church has always believed something does not ipso facto make it right. The question should always be, what has God to say on the matter?

Quote
I am 100% sure that the virgin Mary with all the saints close to the Lord asks him to grant the best of blessings upon you Cheesy
On what scriptural basis do you base this claim?
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2013, 11:13:47 AM »

Lets start from the beginning, let me get this straight. So what you guys are saying is in order to be granted salvation and enter heaven, i have to be Orthodox. Please correct me if i am wrong, and NO protestant will be granted salvation? Everyone is kind of beating around the bush on this subject. If this is true, can someone just directly say it while giving reasoning and explanation.

Why is everybody trying to accuse the Orthodox people that we claim we're the only ones who can acquire Salvation?Huh Sheesh!

What I''ve learned is that to Orthodox people Salvation is a guarantee (based on faith and works, of course), while the non-orthodox may acquire salvation, but it is not a guarantee, it's God's mercy.
So you may be a good Christian, but if you are not part of the Church, you are in heresy, and only God knows what your faith will be. We CANNOT say what will happen to you.

If you never heard about Christ, it's again God's mercy.

If you heard about Christ, but you choose not to follow Him, it's again God's mercy.

And so on , and so on....

So you decide....do you want God's mercy or do you want the guarantee?


I disagree.  Salvation is not guaranteed to anyone....and anyone who claims they know they are saved, or has earned through faith, words, deeds or actions salvation...most likely is not saved.
God's word says:
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We can indeed know we are saved. Salvation is for 'whosoever.'
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's word says we cannot earn our salvation through anything.

Ephesians 2 v8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Quote
 Nothing is guaranteed....although we trust in the Lord that if we abide by His statutes we have a chance.
This is not scriptural - refer above verses.
So we are not to obey Christ if we hope to be saved?
If you obeyed Christ you would know if you are saved or not. Are you saved? Or are you hoping to be saved?

According to you, you are doomed to a life of uncertainty.
Quote
Better uncertainty than complacency.
So you are uncertain whether you are saved. So you don't believe God's promises. The opposite of uncertainty is NOT complacency but certainty. God's word assures us that we can be certain so why not believe him?

You might never abide by enough statutes. In fact if you are counting on keeping the law to save you, scripture says you will never be good enough.
Quote
So you equate obedience to Christ's statutes with trust that the law will save us?
You are either trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross to save you or your ability to be righteous enough i.e. keeping the law. God's word says you will never be righteous enough by your works. If this were possible Christ would not have had to die.

That's why Jesus died for your sins. He paid the price for you. He said on the cross 'It is finished.' He accomplished everything. There is nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is his gift which he offers to you.
Quote
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
So you accept that it is God's free gift to you? A lot of Orthodox posters on this forum alone would disagree with you.
 
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2013, 11:14:16 AM »

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it.
God's holy people are all those who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

The Rapture definitely isn't part of the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. No source earlier than the 19th century even talks about that ridiculous old wives' tale.

Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2013, 11:18:16 AM »

Quote
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
So you accept that it is God's free gift to you? A lot of Orthodox posters on this forum alone would disagree with you.

It's a gift, yes. Not an offer you can't refuse. God the Father isn't the Godfather.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2013, 11:21:44 AM »

You do realize, Rachel, that Orthodoxy doesn't teach that baptism will save anyone apart from the context of a life of faith? If one who is baptized then lives his life in a way that totally renounces his baptism, he will not be saved. In fact, he will likely be worse off at the last judgment than he who was never baptized.
But you do teach that you cannot be saved without being baptised. This is not scriptural. The thief on the cross was not baptised.
Scripture does tell us to be baptised but our salvation is not dependent on this.
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2013, 11:28:51 AM »

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

The faith was entrusted to us once for all , and we have to contend for it.
God's holy people are all those who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

The Rapture definitely isn't part of the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. No source earlier than the 19th century even talks about that ridiculous old wives' tale.
For source - refer to God's word. This predates the 19th century! That you consider God's word to be 'old wives' tales says much about why you hold its truths with such indifference.
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2013, 11:32:18 AM »

Quote
We Orthodox don't believe that salvation can be earned.
So you accept that it is God's free gift to you? A lot of Orthodox posters on this forum alone would disagree with you.

It's a gift, yes. Not an offer you can't refuse. God the Father isn't the Godfather.
No one is suggesting that everyone choses to accept his gift.
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2013, 11:33:57 AM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 11:34:09 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
rachel
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 310



« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2013, 11:42:56 AM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
Yes.
Logged

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
Yes.

That's mafia theology.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #120 on: May 19, 2013, 12:05:56 PM »

You seem to imply that once saved is always saved and that salvation cannot be lost.
Yes.

That's mafia theology.
LOL. Mafia theology. We totally need to make a meme about that.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 12:08:55 PM by Severian » Logged


In solidarity with the "Nasara" (i.e. Christians) of Iraq and Syria

On hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact

NOTE: Some of my older posts may not reflect my current views
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #121 on: May 19, 2013, 02:10:59 PM »


We have no need to ask anyone else in heaven to pray for us.

1 John 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


Appreciate your once again direct response brother in faith, but the conclusion you make of this verse is not about all that there is. As orthodox christians we have never believed that by praying to the saints, we got saved in their advocacy. In the end it´s always our beloved Lord and Savior who through his action on the cross advocates to God our heavenly Father, but with the prayers of thousands of Gods people, I think Christ our God may consider bringing some person to heaven by his own action, asking for prayers can´t clease our sins by itself. But the Lord willingly can.
With the same standard you are using, which i totally reject, many verses would be taken out of their all over context, the true faith. For example:

Luke 12:10
"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
So with the direct logical interpretation you made in the previous verse. What would you conclude with this one? Can we blaspheme the Father and the Son and yet be forgiven? In the verse, of course we can, in the content of what the Lord ment, of course nothing can´t be forgiven if we ultimately don´t submit to the power of the Holy spirit here on earth. Then there will be no change.

With loving regards to your question, your conclusions before asking the question may be a little wrong. Must Christ explicitly say in the scriptures that we may pray to the saints or Gods people in union through him? With that same standard no one can find any biblical basis for sola scriptura, because Jesus never uttered anything about it. But rather we look throughout the entire scripture, its fuller context, to see what true faith Christ intended for us through his own ministry here on earth, through his apostles, and through his church.

Through the vision John had of heaven, explained in revelation, we read this:

Revelation 5:8
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Revelation 8:3-5
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

The thing you might conclude dear brother from these verses is that the prayer of Gods people were not in any way directed to the saints or any holy person in heaven. But your conclusion is would not then be based on anything but a pure guess.  Rather a Orthodox can conclude, with an entire church tradition and history as a reference, that atleast 1 of these prayer, take just one, was a request that the angel or the 24 elders who held the censors, that they may in humility and remembrance deliver that 1 prayer to God. And they ultimately did, Christ didn´t bring the prayers before God, the elders and angel did. In all due respect, if 1 John 2:1-3 would be applied as you interpreted it, Christ would snap the censors out of the angels hand, as well as from the 24 elders, and he would kindly say, I´m the advocate of all these prayers, I will myself take all censors before God.


Let´s take a very long jump back in history and ask ourselves. Who were David actually talking to when he uttered many of the psalms? Seriously, how can many of our beloved brother and sisters in the protestant churches miss these points? And if David could utter these words during his time, how much more can´t we pray in this manner with the final covenant of the Lord...

Psalm 103:20
Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. - A psalm directed to the angels

Once again Rachel, and I don´t mean this in any disrespectful way, please forgive me if it seems so. But to take 1 verse out of the entire bible, and make a direct statement of truth/faith about it, isn´t a good idea.


Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #122 on: May 19, 2013, 02:23:05 PM »

If you still insist dear brother/sister, then please give me a sermon with explicit statements from the bible on masturbation, not on sexual immorality, but on masturbation. You will have a problem with that, along with many others topics. But start with the hardest one =)

Now, please please please forgive me, if i in any way talked in a disrespectful, embittering or unloving way
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #123 on: May 19, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »

The ultimate question for anyone holding "sola scriptura" is this, and if you ask for a scriptual reference Rachel, neither me or you can´t provide it. Was the church of the apostles dependent of the scriptures or was the scriptures dependent of the church? Did the scripture wrote the church or the other way around? Smiley Who gave you authority today to change that? And give me scriptual reference for your given authority please.

Don´t assume "sola sciptura" when engaging with Orthodoxy.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The interesting part here is that the word "teaching" is used elsewhere in the bible, without any note indication. But in this verse, a note is given to the word. *

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

Please take time Rachel, with all due respect and love, to read through the early church of the apostles. If they broke bread, layed hands, prayed and annoited with oil. Why in the world would either you or Martin Luther say that it´s not neccesary today? (Scriptural reference for the answer, hehe ;P)
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #124 on: May 19, 2013, 03:15:02 PM »

Quote
1) Did all baptized jews know about this Jesus who yet had not start his world changing ministry on earth? - Please a scriptural reference for any further statement on this.
Given the closeness in time between the ministries of John and Jesus it is likely that many people who were baptised by John came to a faith in Jesus. That is why John was said to be "preparing the way" for him.

I actually am pretty disappointed Rachel for you not keeping up with your own standard.

I asked for scriptural reference to the question mentioned above. Yet you do your own theology and say that because of the time frame everyone came to believe in Christ. My question is how in the world you know that? I asked for scripture, the thing we both call Gods word, not yours. The same standard is to be used against orthodoxy, as against yourself please. Or else we can´t discuss anything, with great love and sincere respect my fellow brother/sister in the faith.

Yes, John the Baptist, said that he would prepare the way for the Lord. Not for jews being baptized in the jordan river. So you can´t for no reason draw the conclusion. My question remains...


Forgive me please for the bad attitude
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 03:16:39 PM by Jovan » Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,434


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #125 on: May 19, 2013, 04:10:02 PM »

Please keep this thread on topic. To wit, the OP:

Hello,

   Let me give you all a brief background of my life. I was baptized Coptic orthodox but grew up attending both the protestant and Coptic orthodox church. (Dad was protestant, mom was Coptic orthodox.) I want to inform the reader that this did not harshly impact my life at all. I grew up in a loving caring family, and we all attended both churches regularly. Yes, my Sundays consisted of Coptic church in the morning, followed by protestant church in the evening. And yes, Sundays was not a day i would look forward to as a child, considering i was in church for half the day.
      None the less, looking back at it now, I'm glad i went through that experience since i got to be indulged into both cultures and both styles of worshiping the father. I completely understand the differences between both of these radically different sectors of Christianity, But at the same time i also understand that the fundamental core of both faiths are the same and will never change. At the age of ten, i leaned over to being protestant, a decision my parents respected, and have mainly attended protestant church ever since. I still visit the orthodox church and enjoy their biblical studies as well as their liturgy from time to time. They know my story very well, and have accepted me into their group, something most Orthodox churches wouldn't do with a "protestant kid".  I am good friends with most of the youth there and have grown close with almost all of them.
        I know marrying a girl from the Coptic Church would be difficult considering my situation. But how difficult would it be? I'm hoping i can find someone on here, that has gone through my experiences and can explain to me the hurdles and struggles i will probably have to endure in order to marry a Coptic girl. I am mainly just looking for advice in hopes to make better decisions on how to approach this dilemma.


 

If you wish to discuss anything else, please start another thread for that purpose.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 04:10:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Remora
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Anglican
Posts: 18


in mora, memor remorae sum


« Reply #126 on: May 31, 2013, 12:13:05 PM »

I'm not sure if Anonymous is still reading this thread, and I'm sorry to be bumping an old-ish topic if that's the case.

But I'm sad that there wasn't much more discussion about the threadmaker's topic. I guess he was looking for a sympathetic run-down of what it might be like if he married a Coptic girl without leaving Protestantism, but maybe it's hard for Orthodox members to think like a Protestant.

So I address this just to you, Anonymous, one protestant to another. I hope that your faith in Christ and love of his great church is never diminished by the almost "tough love" approach that some posters have used here. Of course some of them want to convert you to Orthodoxy, it's what they believe to be true. But as for your question, what would it be like to marry a Coptic girl, I think you can already see some of the difficulties surrounding it. The nature of the replies here and the fact that people can't even imagine why you would consider marrying Orthodox without converting, all shows the kind of attitude you would come up against if you do decide to pursue a Coptic girl. If you want to marry anyone, you'll have to ask yourself, "is this worth it?" And so will she. And you'll ask yourself, "am I being fair for her?" and she'll ask herself, "am I being harsh on him?" I'm not saying it's impossible, but the (rather unromantic) truth is that at the end of the day you need to be realistic. And you ought to be kind on your sister in Christ. Why take an extra burden? Why be an extra burden to another person? I don't want to sound cliched, but is this what God is really calling you to?

If God calls you to the Orthodox church, follow him and he will show you the way, and you will be free to marry a Coptic girl. But if God has planted you in the Protestant church, and if that is where he wants you to grow, and you flourish there, why be anxious to marry a Coptic? If God has put you in one church, and it's hard to marry a girl in another church, then maybe that's a sign that God doesn't intend you to marry that particular girl. Unless he makes her accessible to you, by leading you to the Orthodox church.

It's just a suggestion. I don't know all of what's going on. But I'd say pray about it, and be real about it. It's not something to take on lightly. And trust in God.

And I pray that God's grace will be with you, always. Smiley
Logged

It is a small fish, about six inches long, but when it attaches to a ship the ship cannot move, but seems rooted in the sea, despite raging storms and gales. This fish is also called "delay" (mora) because it causes ships to stand still. 
(Isidore of Seville, Etymologies, Book 12, 6:34)
Dpaula
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian w/ Romanian background
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 295


« Reply #127 on: May 31, 2013, 12:47:17 PM »

You missed the part where all he wanted was to debate on this subject, and not really interested in the girl.
Logged

Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,171


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #128 on: May 31, 2013, 02:27:07 PM »

The nature of the replies here and the fact that people can't even imagine why you would consider marrying Orthodox without converting, all shows the kind of attitude you would come up against if you do decide to pursue a Coptic girl.

...

But if God has planted you in the Protestant church, and if that is where he wants you to grow, and you flourish there, why be anxious to marry a Coptic?

I believe I asked--twice--why the OP was interested in marrying a Coptic girl, and that's never been addressed by him, although he had been otherwise active in this thread. 

I don't think it's fair to say that the "nature of the replies" and the "attitude" of the Orthodox here is indicative of what he'd face if he tried to enter into a mixed marriage.  It's indicative of people who ask questions but have those questions ignored in favour of debating other issues not related to the original question (e.g., how Protestantism is true and Coptic Orthodoxy is not).
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #129 on: May 31, 2013, 03:20:52 PM »

I don't know why anyone would expect this thread to go anywhere other than where it went, given how clear-cut this issue is, from the Coptic perspective. He can't marry the Coptic girl without converting, and he apparently doesn't want to convert. There's no real discussion to be had. It's not possible. So of course it devolved into irrelevant bickering.
Logged

Daedelus1138
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 315


« Reply #130 on: July 24, 2013, 12:56:43 PM »

But you do teach that you cannot be saved without being baptised. This is not scriptural. The thief on the cross was not baptised.
Scripture does tell us to be baptised but our salvation is not dependent on this.

  That's not true, there is the "baptism of desire" or in the case of a martyr, the "baptism by blood".

  Baptism is the normal means of salvation, that doesn't mean there are not also extraordinary means.

   Disdain for the necessity of baptism?  I can't see how that's spiritually a good thing at all.  Not when Christ himself commanded it be done.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 12:58:56 PM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
Tags: marriage 
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.418 seconds with 159 queries.