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DeepMagic
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« on: May 10, 2013, 11:40:07 AM »

So I just watched a  youtube video of the Holy Fire ceremony in Jerusalem.

How do you Orthodox feel about this? Are you required to believe it to be a member in good standing of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 11:55:51 AM »

So I just watched a  youtube video of the Holy Fire ceremony in Jerusalem.

How do you Orthodox feel about this? Are you required to believe it to be a member in good standing of the Orthodox Church?
No. In fact, many Orthodox dont believe in it. As for me, I think its lovely and it could be real. Im not there so I cant say. However, I will say that if the Patriarch says its real, who am I to call him a liar with no proof?

PP
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 12:05:03 PM »

So I just watched a  youtube video of the Holy Fire ceremony in Jerusalem.

How do you Orthodox feel about this? Are you required to believe it to be a member in good standing of the Orthodox Church?
No. In fact, many Orthodox dont believe in it. As for me, I think its lovely and it could be real. Im not there so I cant say. However, I will say that if the Patriarch says its real, who am I to call him a liar with no proof?

PP

What is the basis for your claim that "many" Orthodox don't believe in the Holy Fire?

I don't see how someone could not believe in it without claiming that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax to intentionally deceive the masses over many centuries.  Who would join such a church?  One would have to wonder what other mass deceptions have the bishops of the Orthodox Church been perpetuating for centuries if this were indeed a hoax.

In the end, it doesn't matter what "many" Orthodox believe because many Orthodox are ignorant and indifferent to the faith that they claim to profess.  This is the case in every religion.  It would be something remarkable if our holy saints and elders did not believe in the Holy Fire or if they exposed it as a hoax.  I have never heard any saints or elders disbelieving in the Holy Fire. 

Should I offer an award to the first person who can name a saint who claimed the Holy Fire was a hoax?
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DeepMagic
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 12:12:39 PM »

I don't see how someone could not believe in it without claiming that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax to intentionally deceive the masses over many centuries.  Who would join such a church?  One would have to wonder what other mass deceptions have the bishops of the Orthodox Church been perpetuating for centuries if this were indeed a hoax.

Exactly. All I can say, is that it had better be real!
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 12:28:28 PM »

but what if its not!!!

(conspiracies are fun Wink )

but then again feeling eternal holy fire is not very fun either...


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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »

I don't see how someone could not believe in it without claiming that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax to intentionally deceive the masses over many centuries.  Who would join such a church?  One would have to wonder what other mass deceptions have the bishops of the Orthodox Church been perpetuating for centuries if this were indeed a hoax.

Exactly. All I can say, is that it had better be real!

There was another thread on this subject recently, where I posted the following:


This is a good article in response to various critics concerning the Holy Fire:

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/30198.htm

The book, "I saw the Holy Light" is also good and contains an eye witness of the appearance of the Holy Fire  in the sepulchre:

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/AchileousISawHolyLight.htm

Archimandrite Savas, the author describes what he saw:

Quote
My excitement had reached a fearful peak; Yet I was so immersed in an endless silence that I could hardly hear my own breath. Suddenly came the sound of a soft whistling. It was similar to a fine breeze of wind. And immediately, an unforgettable sight, a blue LIGHT filled the entire Tomb. That blue LIGHT, was going round and round exactly as a strong whirlwind, whose force uproots the tallest trees, grasps them, and carries them off. The restless blue LIGHT gyrated about with lightning speed and then the movements slowed down.

Within that LIGHT I saw very clearly the Patriarch. Drops of perspiration trickled down his face. As he was kneeling, he placed his finger at the opening in the Holy Book where the 'candle' was. In the meantime, he placed on the Tomb four bundles, each containing 33 candles. When the mysterious LIGHT changed to a steady glow {93} the Patriarch opened to the 'candle' page and he began to read the prayers.

The then somewhat calm blue LIGHT, began again an uneasy movement. It was an unimaginable and indescribable whirling, stronger than the first. Immediately it began to change into an all-white LIGHT, as at the Transfiguration of Christ (Mathew 17:2). Gradually the all white LIGHT began to take the form of a disc, brilliant as the sun, and stopped motionless precisely over the head of the Patriarch. I saw the Patriarch take in his hands the bundles of candles. He raised them and waited. He was awaiting the arrival of the elusive LIGHT from God. As he raised his hands slowly, not quite reaching the height of his head, instantaneously as if he were touching a lighted furnace, the Holy Kantila and the four bundles of candles lit. In an instant that bright disc vanished before me.

My eyes filled with tears. I felt shivers in my spine while my whole body was burning. I had the feeling that untamed flames of an incandescent furnace enveloped me. My entire body was soaked in perspiration, while my mind, heart, and soul seemed paralyzed at the heavenly revelation of the Holy LIGHT.

The Patriarch, deeply touched, and in a state of bliss, departed. Out of reverence for the Holy space of the Tomb, he bent his head low and backed out to enter the chamber of the Holy Stone. In his hands were the bundles {94} of candles lit by the flames of the Divine LIGHT. Here was evidence of Grace in its glory! http://www.holyfire.org/eng/AchileousISawHolyLight.htm#isa

Here is a book containing 45 historical accounts of the Holy Fire between the 9th and 16th centuries:

http://www.greekorthodoxbooks.gr/210B7835.en.aspx

Also, what do you make of the testimony of Archimandrite Savas, author of  "I Saw the Holy Light"?  Did he make up the story to deceive others?  According to him, when he confessed to the Patriarch that he saw the Holy Fire appear in the sepulcher (having entered in hours before and climbed up and out of sight to await the moment when he could see the miracle with his own eyes), the Patriarch responded:

Quote
When, by the grace of God, I am made worthy to receive the Holy LIGHT from the Tomb of the Resurrected Christ, the following things happen to me.

When my conscience is calm and nothing occupies my thoughts, nothing that has the power to overshadow my tranquility and my devotion to God, an inexpressible joy {103} seizes me. As soon as I enter the Holy Tomb, I read a few lines from the Prayer Book. When I raise the bundles of candles for the invocation for the LIGHT, then by the Grace of God, the kantili, as well as the candles are lit.

But, if the calmness of my soul does not accompany me and I do not have the proper preparation and devotion to God, I do not have that incredible joy. Then as soon as I bend down to enter the Holy Tomb, I see the kantila already lit, and from it, I light the candles.

Go, therefore, my child, with my blessing. May God who made you worthy to see the Holy LIGHT be with you always."

So, did Archimandrite Sava deceive people by inventing all of this, or are you claiming that the Patriarch lied to and deceived Archimandrite Sava in the context of the sacrament of confession in order to perpetuate this mass deception?  For an Orthodox to allege such a thing is beyond me. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 01:57:38 PM »

From my understanding, most of the criticisms have come from the Russians. All Im saying is that you dont have to believe in the Holy Fire and be in good standing with the Church.

PP
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J Michael
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 02:04:54 PM »

From my understanding, most of the criticisms have come from the Russians. All Im saying is that you dont have to believe in the Holy Fire and be in good standing with the Church.

PP

I wonder why the Russians?

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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 02:08:23 PM »

From my understanding, most of the criticisms have come from the Russians. All Im saying is that you dont have to believe in the Holy Fire and be in good standing with the Church.

PP

I wonder why the Russians?


Probably because they didn't "think" of it first  laugh
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 02:19:44 PM »

From my understanding, most of the criticisms have come from the Russians. All Im saying is that you dont have to believe in the Holy Fire and be in good standing with the Church.

PP

I wonder why the Russians?


Probably because they didn't "think" of it first  laugh

Good answer!!  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 02:39:47 PM »

All Im saying is that you dont have to believe in the Holy Fire and be in good standing with the Church.

Well, but I think jah has a good point, and I agree:
Quote
I don't see how someone could not believe in it without claiming that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax to intentionally deceive the masses over many centuries.  Who would join such a church?  One would have to wonder what other mass deceptions have the bishops of the Orthodox Church been perpetuating for centuries if this were indeed a hoax.

It may not be required to be in good standing with the Church, but if you don't, ISTM that means you think that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax for centuries. That would seem to have some influence or bearing on one's standing in the Church. 
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 02:54:29 PM »

It may not be required to be in good standing with the Church, but if you don't, ISTM that means you think that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax for centuries. That would seem to have some influence or bearing on one's standing in the Church. 

We are not Donatists. It is certainly unfortunate, but having doubts as to the honesty or personal integrity of a bishop or group of bishops does not compromise your standing in the Church as long as you continue to obey them.
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 03:40:31 PM »


The fact that global media doesn't cover this wondrous and annual event....simply proves that it is real.  Smiley

Because most things that get published are geared to cast doubt on Christianity...and since they haven't found a way to twist this truth into doubt....it must be real.

I know it is locally covered, and you can find it on YouTube, etc.

However, living in Michigan....nobody outside of Orthodoxy has even heard of it.

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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 04:00:06 PM »

It may not be required to be in good standing with the Church, but if you don't, ISTM that means you think that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax for centuries. That would seem to have some influence or bearing on one's standing in the Church. 

We are not Donatists. It is certainly unfortunate, but having doubts as to the honesty or personal integrity of a bishop or group of bishops does not compromise your standing in the Church as long as you continue to obey them.

True, but it's not just doubts about the honesty or personal integrity of a bishop or group of bishops. The Church has accepted this as a miracle for centuries, so it would be doubting every single one, as well as the Church that has accepted it as a miracle. That would seem problematic as far as one's standing with the Church was concerned.
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 04:00:54 PM »


The fact that global media doesn't cover this wondrous and annual event....simply proves that it is real.  Smiley

Because most things that get published are geared to cast doubt on Christianity...and since they haven't found a way to twist this truth into doubt....it must be real.


Lol. Sad but true, Liza!
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 04:18:01 PM »

The whole thing caught my attention because it's probably the most scientific miracle I've ever heard of.

It's a miracle that happens at predictable times and with a predictable, verifiable result. I would be very curious to see it for myself.

However, I doubt that they let people into where the Patriarch goes. Which seems suspicious...
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DeepMagic
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 04:21:34 PM »

So, did Archimandrite Sava deceive people by inventing all of this, or are you claiming that the Patriarch lied to and deceived Archimandrite Sava in the context of the sacrament of confession in order to perpetuate this mass deception?  For an Orthodox to allege such a thing is beyond me. 

Well, I'm not Orthodox, yet. I certainly could be in the future. I'm not alleging anything. I'm just curious to see what others believe about it.
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 04:36:10 PM »

However, I doubt that they let people into where the Patriarch goes. Which seems suspicious...

They do. But not then.

IMO the biggest proof for is that OOs accept it and everyone know how they get along with us there.
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 05:48:29 PM »

The whole thing caught my attention because it's probably the most scientific miracle I've ever heard of.

It's a miracle that happens at predictable times and with a predictable, verifiable result. I would be very curious to see it for myself.

However, I doubt that they let people into where the Patriarch goes. Which seems suspicious...

They let heathens go into where the Patriarch goes (I had a heathen professor decades ago recount her experience of the Holy Sepulchre).  It is non-Christians who inspect the place. 
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 08:49:57 PM »

So I just watched a  youtube video of the Holy Fire ceremony in Jerusalem.

How do you Orthodox feel about this? Are you required to believe it to be a member in good standing of the Orthodox Church?
No. In fact, many Orthodox dont believe in it. As for me, I think its lovely and it could be real. Im not there so I cant say. However, I will say that if the Patriarch says its real, who am I to call him a liar with no proof?

PP

"Many" LOL.
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 08:51:54 PM »

From my understanding, most of the criticisms have come from the Russians. All Im saying is that you dont have to believe in the Holy Fire and be in good standing with the Church.

PP

"The Russians" LOL. The same Russians who bring the holy fire by jet from Jerusalem to Moscow? Or the various Russians who aren't Orthodox?
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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 08:53:53 PM »

It may not be required to be in good standing with the Church, but if you don't, ISTM that means you think that the Patriarchs of Jerusalem and other Orthodox bishops have been involved in a hoax for centuries. That would seem to have some influence or bearing on one's standing in the Church. 

We are not Donatists. It is certainly unfortunate, but having doubts as to the honesty or personal integrity of a bishop or group of bishops does not compromise your standing in the Church as long as you continue to obey them.

The Holy Fire has been documented for over 1,000 years. You want to doubt the integrity of that many bishops and still claim to be somehow in good standing? Many of those bishops are saints, including many of the patriarchs of Jerusalem. Why is your opinion worth more than theirs?
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2013, 11:28:28 PM »

IN ANSWER TO THE OP

Yes there is a book on the Holy Fire, an extensively researched history of its appearance; providing 42 historical accounts from the 9th to the 16th century.

It is entitled:

Holy Fire; The miracle of Holy Saturday at the Tomb of Christ

by Haris Skarlakidis (Caralambos K. Skarlakidis)

Published in Athens 2011 by the author

ISBN 978-960-99255-4-9
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