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Author Topic: How to Interpret the Scriptures  (Read 4490 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dpaula
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« Reply #810 on: May 24, 2013, 02:36:38 PM »

Yesss, I remember!!
She did quote that in favor of Sola Scriptura.
 laugh
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« Reply #811 on: May 24, 2013, 03:02:51 PM »

Rachel, I admire your tenacity in coming to a forum that you are clearly in the minority and giving your beliefs.  I don't agree with any of them but I am glad you are here.  I think the frustration that many here have is this.

You consistently claim that the Holy Spirit is directing you in your interpretation of Scripture, but you haven't been able to demonstrate how or if that actually occurs.
That's because everyone's experience of God is personal just like any knowledge. The same can be said of Orthodox who claim to have the Holy Spirit. What is clear is that my expression of faith communicates the certainty which the bible says should be characteristic of someone who is indwelt by the Spirit whereas a lot of Orthodox admit to being uncertain of their salvation.
Quote
I know you are fond of quoting copious amounts of Scripture, but none of that Scripture explains how you have been given the answers.
The Spirit will speak to your mind just as the Spirit spoke to the minds of those in the early church. Do you never experience the direct leading of the Holy Spirit?
Quote
  The Scripture you quote is Scripture that we agree with, but we interpret it differently,
Well I am very happy to have Orthodox posters explain Orthodox interpretation. If we differ we can look to other scripture to see which concurs with it, as God's word will not contradict itself.

Quote
so quoting it really doesn't have the effect you hope to have.  To avoid confusion, here is what I and (I think) many would like the answers to.  Your answers, not quotations of Scripture.
 Most can be answered just by a yes or no.

1. You have Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Evangelicals, etc.  They all have VERY different beliefs.  Do you believe that only one of them is teaching truth?
No.
The idea that they are all different beliefs is a myth. Different denominations tend to emphasise different aspects of the truth. Their unity lies in their orthodox doctrine and the presence of the Holy Sprit in the church which flows from this. The critical issue is whether a church's doctrine is biblical and where this is the case I can happily worship in a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal church. God is a God of diversity. You can have unity without having uniformity.

Quote
2. How do you know that YOU are not being deceived?
By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and whether a belief concurs with scripture. That is why the test is always scripture... the doctrines held by the apostles.
Quote
3. Is it possible that you have misinterpreted something important in Scripture?  You don't even have to acknowledge that the Orthodox position is correct, but do you acknowledge that it is POSSIBLE that you may have incorrectly understood what the Holy Spirit meant in Scripture?
If you are asking whether I am claiming infallibility, then no. But that is why it is important to ask for guidance and also to study whether doctrine concurs with the rest of scripture. I get the impression that the Orthodox church does indeed claim infallibility even when its interpretations do not concur with scripture. Therefore it sets itself above scripture which God says is his word. Is God a man that he should lie? Even if you go right back to biblical times there are warnings about false doctrine. The age that something has been held to be true does not of itself make it true. Neither does something become true just because an eminent person says it. So should we trust in God's word or the word of any church?

Quote
I can't speak for others, but one thing that attracted me to Orthodoxy is that I no longer have to rely on my own interpretation, I can look back to see what has been believed for 2000 years.
But because someone has believed something for 2000 years doesn't make it true. If the belief was false 2000 years ago it remains false.
 
Quote
I don't see how you have any assurance other than being very self confident if your own mind and then claiming it is the Holy Spirit.
But either God meant it when he said he would send his Holy Spirit and that he would indwell all believers and lead  them into all truth  or God was lying. God tells us in his word what things we can be certain of, what things we can have assurance over. Do you personally know the indwelling of his Spirit?
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« Reply #812 on: May 24, 2013, 03:07:16 PM »

I get the impression that the Orthodox church does indeed claim infallibility even when its interpretations do not concur with scripture.

Then you are mistaken. The Orthodox Church may interpret things that do not concur with your own personal opinions about Scripture, but it never contradicts Scripture. How could it? The Bible came out of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #813 on: May 24, 2013, 03:12:45 PM »

I will just address a few things because I think attempting to respond to everything will become quite cumbersome.

I believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I do not, however, believe that the Holy Spirit provides me with personal, private interpretion.  I believe the Holy Spirit indwells the Church.  As long as we are in the Church and following His direction through the Church, we will not fall into error.  The Church is His implement whereby he conveys the Truth found in Scripture.  

I don't understand how you can say that all those denominations are all teaching Truth just emphasizing it differently.  Some are very pro infant baptism, others are very against it.  Some are very strongly free will, others are strongly predestination.  Those are opposites, not just different emphasis. Some Pentacostals will say that you must be able to speak in tongues of you are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit whereas some Evangelicals will call that demon possession and say Pentacostals are damned.  How is there unity in that?
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« Reply #814 on: May 24, 2013, 03:15:48 PM »

I get the impression that the Orthodox church does indeed claim infallibility even when its interpretations do not concur with scripture.

Then you are mistaken. The Orthodox Church may interpret things that do not concur with your own personal opinions about Scripture, but it never contradicts Scripture. How could it? The Bible came out of the Orthodox Church.


I wonder if Rachel knows or understands this ^
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« Reply #815 on: May 24, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »


I don't get it. The Lutherans, the Reformed, the Mennonites, the Evangelicals, the Methodists and thousand other protestant sects all differ among eachother. How can they all be led by the Holy Spirit? God is not the author of confusion.
The idea that they are all different beliefs is a myth. Different denominations tend to emphasise different aspects of the truth. Their unity lies in their orthodox doctrine and the presence of the Holy Sprit in the church which flows from this. The critical issue is whether a church's doctrine is biblical and where this is the case I can happily worship in a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal church. God is a God of diversity. You can have unity without having uniformity.
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« Reply #816 on: May 24, 2013, 03:34:49 PM »

Well I have quoted scripture. It is a great shame that you consider his word nonsense.

I don't consider Scripture nonsense. I consider your far-fetched and ridiculous exegesis nonsense. Most of the times the passages of Scripture that you quote aren't even relevant to the point you're trying to make.
So please explain how the verses I have quoted are not relevant to my point that the Spirit is given to individuals. Please explain in what way my point is far fetched and ridiculous rather than just call it nonsense.  The verses are:
Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 10:44
[ The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles ] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Since scripture says that all scripture is Spirit breathed it is through scripture that the Spirit has chosen to speak. The scriptures are full of references to the Holy Spirit being given to individuals. Here are just a few.

Quote
I'm not denying that the Holy Spirit fills individuals. I'm only denying that you speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit. That's all.
Well I've quoted scripture to you. Scripture has the authority of the Holy Spirit. So which bit is nonsense and far fetched?
Cyrillic, I'd still like to know which of the above verses are nonsense and far fetched. Please explain what you understand them to mean?
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« Reply #817 on: May 24, 2013, 03:35:53 PM »


I don't get it. The Lutherans, the Reformed, the Mennonites, the Evangelicals, the Methodists and thousand other protestant sects all differ among eachother. How can they all be led by the Holy Spirit? God is not the author of confusion.
The idea that they are all different beliefs is a myth. Different denominations tend to emphasise different aspects of the truth. Their unity lies in their orthodox doctrine and the presence of the Holy Sprit in the church which flows from this. The critical issue is whether a church's doctrine is biblical and where this is the case I can happily worship in a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal church. God is a God of diversity. You can have unity without having uniformity.

Can you worship in an Orthodox Church? We'd love to have you anytime. Smiley  

What about a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon "church"? They have elements of biblical truth also. In fact, most Mormons and JW's can quote more scripture than the average evangelical can.


Selam
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« Reply #818 on: May 24, 2013, 03:37:40 PM »


I don't get it. The Lutherans, the Reformed, the Mennonites, the Evangelicals, the Methodists and thousand other protestant sects all differ among eachother. How can they all be led by the Holy Spirit? God is not the author of confusion.
The idea that they are all different beliefs is a myth. Different denominations tend to emphasise different aspects of the truth. Their unity lies in their orthodox doctrine and the presence of the Holy Sprit in the church which flows from this.

What orthodox doctrine are you referring to?

The critical issue is whether a church's doctrine is biblical and where this is the case I can happily worship in a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal church. God is a God of diversity. You can have unity without having uniformity.

Are you saying that all Protestants are united?
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« Reply #819 on: May 24, 2013, 03:53:31 PM »

The thing about discussing theology with Protestants is that we are always starting with two different foundations. They begin with the autonomous authority of themselves - their own interpretation of scripture
Not so. I believe in the authority of scripture which I believe to be God's word to us.
Quote
and we begin with the divine authority of the Church.
If the church is teaching  doctrine that does not concur with scripture it is false doctrine and it does not therefore have divine authority.



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« Reply #820 on: May 24, 2013, 04:05:55 PM »

The thing about discussing theology with Protestants is that we are always starting with two different foundations. They begin with the autonomous authority of themselves - their own interpretation of scripture
Not so. I believe in the authority of scripture which I believe to be God's word to us.
Quote
and we begin with the divine authority of the Church.
If the church is teaching  doctrine that does not concur with scripture it is false doctrine and it does not therefore have divine authority.

There is not a single doctrine of the Orthodox Faith that contradicts scripture. Not one. The scriptures - authoritative as they are - still need to be interpreted. The question is, who and what has been given the divine authority to ensure that the scriptures are not misinterpreted? As we have pointed out to you repeatedly, the Protestant landscape is littered with the detritus of a thousand different misinterpretations. The Orthodox Church is unquestionably much more unified in her doctrines and faith.

With respect, it would be much more fruitful if you stopped repeating the same mantra over and over again and tried to actually address our questions and our points. At least have the integrity to admit that you think you can interpret the Bible better than the apostolic Church. That would at least be honest and I could respect that.


Selam



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« Reply #821 on: May 24, 2013, 04:07:30 PM »

The thing about discussing theology with Protestants is that we are always starting with two different foundations. They begin with the autonomous authority of themselves - their own interpretation of scripture
Not so. I believe in the authority of scripture which I believe to be God's word to us.
Quote
and we begin with the divine authority of the Church.
If the church is teaching  doctrine that does not concur with scripture it is false doctrine and it does not therefore have divine authority.



Rachel, do you believe that the Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church gave us the Holy Bible, and thus, should be the final interpreter of the Holy Bible?

Or do you believe that the Holy Bible somehow floated down from Heaven?
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« Reply #822 on: May 24, 2013, 04:20:43 PM »

The thing about discussing theology with Protestants is that we are always starting with two different foundations. They begin with the autonomous authority of themselves - their own interpretation of scripture
Not so. I believe in the authority of scripture which I believe to be God's word to us.
Quote
and we begin with the divine authority of the Church.
If the church is teaching  doctrine that does not concur with scripture it is false doctrine and it does not therefore have divine authority.




It seems that we actually agree. No rational Orthodox Christian would argue the authority of Scripture. Where we disagree is in the interpretation of Scripture. The Orthodox also hold that our beliefs must be compatible with Scripture. However, it is not logical to claim that just because something is not spelled out in Scripture that it is false doctrine. The Apostles did much teaching that is not recorded in Scripture, yet I'm sure even you would hold that their teaching is authoritative. I understand that you, unlike the Orthodox, hesitate to affirm that oral teachings have been transmitted faithfully over the centuries and for that reason, you retreat to a "Scriptures alone" mindset.
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« Reply #823 on: May 24, 2013, 04:30:13 PM »

I don't get it. The Lutherans, the Reformed, the Mennonites, the Evangelicals, the Methodists and thousand other protestant sects all differ among eachother. How can they all be led by the Holy Spirit? God is not the author of confusion.
The idea that they are all different beliefs is a myth. Different denominations tend to emphasise different aspects of the truth. Their unity lies in their orthodox doctrine and the presence of the Holy Sprit in the church which flows from this. The critical issue is whether a church's doctrine is biblical and where this is the case I can happily worship in a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal church.
How is the possibility of apostasy (Luther/Wesley/Methodists) a different aspect of your truth of the impossibility of apostasy and the necessity of certainty of future salvation? Would you allow that Methodists and Lutherans have "true faith" though they are not certain of future salvation, and if so how can you consistently deny that Orthodox do for the same reason? Is this a deal breaker for unity as you conceive of it or not?

How is baptismal regeneration (Luther, Calvin too though not later Calvinists) a different aspect of your truth that anyone affirming baptismal regeneration is therefore holding to a heretical idea of salvation by works (which Lutherans are not actually affirming, but denying, but you have claimed there is a necessary connection).

Many Pentecostals are Sabellian, that is to say they believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "modes" of one God and are not persons; they reject the doctrine of the Trinity. Do you regard these as in unity with what you consider the True Faith, and why or why not?

Other questions come to mind; I'll start with these. How much or how little can you dispense with and still have "unity without uniformity?" What for you is a "Non-Negotiable" and what isn't?

Quote from: rachel
I get the impression that the Orthodox church does indeed claim infallibility even when its interpretations do not concur with scripture.
That is incorrect; Orthodoxy does not contradict scripture insofar as scripture is being interpreted correctly.

Quote from: rachel
Therefore it sets itself above scripture..
This is also incorrect.

Quote from: rachel
The age that something has been held to be true does not of itself make it true.
That is not false, but wouldn't you admit/allow it is at least far less suspicious if something was always affirmed from the very beginning? If say, Eternal Security as you affirm it were true, isn't it at least a little odd that ALL of the apostolic Fathers, like Polycarp the immediate disciple of John, like St. Clement who was bishop while the apostles were still alive, St. Ignatius who was bishop of Antioch (where Paul was) and all Syria during the lifetime of the apostles and who was ordained by the laying on of hands by the apostles, and the like believed in the possibility of apostasy? If "true apostolic doctrine" was the very opposite of that, wouldn't you expect there have been SOMEONE living at that time who would have presented at least one shred of dissent about a "key doctrine relating to salvation?" But the only ones that taught eternal security early on were heretics -the Gnostics taught that. So while that might be a hair short of what you who do not speak the language of the New Testament as your mother tongue like those folks did would consider proof, at the very least it seems to present not only more credibility to the ancient view, but also to put an incredible strain on the credibility of your position in that no church in any geographical region where the apostles directly appointed leaders taught what you teach, but rather they all taught the very opposite.

Quote from: rachel
Neither does something become true just because an eminent person says it.
That is true; the word is understood correctly only by those who live it. St. Maximos the Confessor also emphasized this (see my post before last). But those who were ordained by the apostles, who laid their hands upon no man suddenly except they regarded them as "trustworthy men" have on the face of it at least a grain more of credibility than any group who teaches something opposite to what they did which is also completely unknown within all Christendom until many many centuries later. It is the latter sort of thing you seem to expect others to find credible, but why should they? Did the Holy Spirit exist within anyone who taught and wrote in those days in your view (if so please provide examples from very early centuries), or only in your day?

Quote from: rachel
But because someone has believed something for 2000 years doesn't make it true.
Sure, but just because some fellow comes along well after 1800 years like Darby (the father of Dispensationalism) saying he has the Holy Spirit and has a doctrine opposite to everything known before doesn't make it true either, does it? Doesn't something taught for 2000 years and also by persons appointed by the apostles themselves or a direct disciple of an apostle seem a ***little*** more credible in your mind than a doctrine supposedly central to the Christian faith according to some later figure but taught by no one for many, many, many centuries?

Quote from: rachel
Quote
I don't see how you have any assurance other than being very self confident if your own mind and then claiming it is the Holy Spirit.
But either God meant it when he said he would send his Holy Spirit and that he would indwell all believers and lead  them into all truth  or God was lying. God tells us in his word what things we can be certain of, what things we can have assurance over. Do you personally know the indwelling of his Spirit?
But all Protestants acknowledge that heretics exist who affirm they have the Holy Spirit, but really don't. So subjective certainty that one has the Holy Spirit might be affirmed by someone who is actually a heretic, right? So how would a heretic or heterodox who believed he/she had the Holy Spirit know they did not? How do you/we know you are not heterodox or heretic?

As others have said your tenacity is admirable; I hope you feel you are welcome and in the presence of at least a few friends despite disagreements.
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« Reply #824 on: May 24, 2013, 04:32:51 PM »

The thing about discussing theology with Protestants is that we are always starting with two different foundations. They begin with the autonomous authority of themselves - their own interpretation of scripture
Not so. I believe in the authority of scripture which I believe to be God's word to us.
Quote
and we begin with the divine authority of the Church.
If the church is teaching  doctrine that does not concur with scripture it is false doctrine and it does not therefore have divine authority.

There is not a single doctrine of the Orthodox Faith that contradicts scripture. Not one. The scriptures - authoritative as they are - still need to be interpreted. The question is, who and what has been given the divine authority to ensure that the scriptures are not misinterpreted? As we have pointed out to you repeatedly, the Protestant landscape is littered with the detritus of a thousand different misinterpretations. The Orthodox Church is unquestionably much more unified in her doctrines and faith.

With respect, it would be much more fruitful if you stopped repeating the same mantra over and over again and tried to actually address our questions and our points. At least have the integrity to admit that you think you can interpret the Bible better than the apostolic Church. That would at least be honest and I could respect that.


Selam



Amen.

Apparently what Rachel is repeating ad nauseam is what she has learned from her Christian Bible college, nothing more. At these colleges, they do not teach you to think, but to memorize passages.
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« Reply #825 on: May 24, 2013, 05:18:35 PM »

Quote
If the church is teaching  doctrine that does not concur with scripture it is false doctrine and it does not therefore have divine authority.
I find it funny that you have no problem that the Church canonized the scriptures, yet take issue with interpretation...thank God the sneeze guard is on the buffet line......
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« Reply #826 on: May 25, 2013, 11:05:54 AM »


Apparently what Rachel is repeating ad nauseam is what she has learned from her Christian Bible college, nothing more. At these colleges, they do not teach you to think, but to memorize passages.
Well that's an assumption Maria!
Firstly, I have never been to bible college.
Secondly, I presume from your statement, "At these colleges, they do not teach you to think, but to memorize passages." that you have been to one. If this was your experience of your time there then I do not think you chose your college wisely.

I think I have made my views on the importance of thinking clear on this forum. God says in his word that we are to reason with him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,

Matthew 22:36-38
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.


We should never just accept, without thinking, what anyone says to us regarding doctrine. Not even if it is preached in a church either yours or mine. God himself tells us to test what is said. Does it agree with his word.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
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« Reply #827 on: May 25, 2013, 11:37:09 AM »

Well I have quoted scripture. It is a great shame that you consider his word nonsense.

I don't consider Scripture nonsense. I consider your far-fetched and ridiculous exegesis nonsense. Most of the times the passages of Scripture that you quote aren't even relevant to the point you're trying to make.
So please explain how the verses I have quoted are not relevant to my point that the Spirit is given to individuals. Please explain in what way my point is far fetched and ridiculous rather than just call it nonsense.  The verses are:
Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 10:44
[ The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles ] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Since scripture says that all scripture is Spirit breathed it is through scripture that the Spirit has chosen to speak. The scriptures are full of references to the Holy Spirit being given to individuals. Here are just a few.

Quote
I'm not denying that the Holy Spirit fills individuals. I'm only denying that you speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit. That's all.
Well I've quoted scripture to you. Scripture has the authority of the Holy Spirit. So which bit is nonsense and far fetched?
Cyrillic, I'd still like to know which of the above verses are nonsense and far fetched. Please explain what you understand them to mean?

Xariskai already answered you pretty well on why protestantism isn't united, so I'll just tackle this one.

Arians or Nestorians can claim to be guided in their interpretation by the Holy Spirit as well. We (that's you and me) just don't believe that this is true. In the same sense I believe that your interpretation of the Bible isn't guided by the Holy Spirit. These verses do not apply to you or your interpretation at all.

I'd like to add to xariskai's examples that the Lutherans believe in the Real Presence while Calvinists don't.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:41:41 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #828 on: May 25, 2013, 12:06:38 PM »

Well I have quoted scripture. It is a great shame that you consider his word nonsense.

I don't consider Scripture nonsense. I consider your far-fetched and ridiculous exegesis nonsense. Most of the times the passages of Scripture that you quote aren't even relevant to the point you're trying to make.
So please explain how the verses I have quoted are not relevant to my point that the Spirit is given to individuals. Please explain in what way my point is far fetched and ridiculous rather than just call it nonsense.  The verses are:
Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
John 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 10:44
[ The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles ] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Since scripture says that all scripture is Spirit breathed it is through scripture that the Spirit has chosen to speak. The scriptures are full of references to the Holy Spirit being given to individuals. Here are just a few.

Quote
I'm not denying that the Holy Spirit fills individuals. I'm only denying that you speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit. That's all.
Well I've quoted scripture to you. Scripture has the authority of the Holy Spirit. So which bit is nonsense and far fetched?
Cyrillic, I'd still like to know which of the above verses are nonsense and far fetched. Please explain what you understand them to mean?

Xariskai already answered you pretty well on why protestantism isn't united, so I'll just tackle this one.

Arians or Nestorians can claim to be guided in their interpretation by the Holy Spirit as well. We (that's you and me) just don't believe that this is true. In the same sense I believe that your interpretation of the Bible isn't guided by the Holy Spirit. These verses do not apply to you or your interpretation at all.
My question to you was,
"Cyrillic, I'd still like to know which of the above verses are nonsense and far fetched. Please explain what you understand them to mean?"
Your comment above does not answer this. Please would you answer my question.
You have said that these verses do not apply to me, "These verses do not apply to you."Please explain why not.
You have also said that they do not apply to my interpretation, "These verses do not apply to .... your interpretation at all."
I already knew that you disagreed with my interpretation. What I asked for was what you understood them to mean. Please elucidate.

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« Reply #829 on: May 25, 2013, 12:20:42 PM »

"Cyrillic, I'd still like to know which of the above verses are nonsense and far fetched. Please explain what you understand them to mean?"

There's not one interpretation for a dozen of quotes, but must just come down to the fact that the Holy Spirit aided the Apostles in their mission.

You have said that these verses do not apply to me, "These verses do not apply to you."Please explain why not.

For the same reason why both of us think that the interpretations of the Arians, Nestorians and Monothelites aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #830 on: May 25, 2013, 01:17:45 PM »


Apparently what Rachel is repeating ad nauseam is what she has learned from her Christian Bible college, nothing more. At these colleges, they do not teach you to think, but to memorize passages.
Well that's an assumption Maria!
Firstly, I have never been to bible college.
Secondly, I presume from your statement, "At these colleges, they do not teach you to think, but to memorize passages." that you have been to one. If this was your experience of your time there then I do not think you chose your college wisely.

I think I have made my views on the importance of thinking clear on this forum. God says in his word that we are to reason with him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,

Matthew 22:36-38
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.


We should never just accept, without thinking, what anyone says to us regarding doctrine. Not even if it is preached in a church either yours or mine. God himself tells us to test what is said. Does it agree with his word.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Thank you for your response, Rachel.

I have known several people who have attended Bible college; I have not. Instead I attended a Catholic university during my undergraduate years, and ultimately graduated with an M.A. degree.

Those people who have received useless degrees from unaccredited Bible colleges often end up parroting tracts that their "professors" and "Jack Chick" have taught them. They are sent to these colleges by their parents who are scared that a liberal arts major in a secular institution will cause them to lose their faith in God. I can understand the parents' concerns. Today's academia is decidedly biased against Christians.

Back on topic: Certainly we are to test the spirits, but you are taking that quote entirely out of context.

For example, in our current Pascal readings, we have been reading from the Gospel of St. John 6, in which Christ is giving his disciples and apostles instructions on the teaching of the Holy Eucharist.
Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics both understand these teachings to be literally true: Christ does come to us under the appearance of Bread and Wine which have been transformed during the Divine Liturgy into His Sacred Body and Blood. And unless we eat of His Body and drink of His Blood, we will not have eternal life.

How do you interpret this chapter?

From the time of Christ's Resurrection in remembrance of the Last Supper, the Holy Catholic and Orthodox Church has consistently practiced the teachings of John 6 by celebrating the Divine Liturgy whereby Christ is eaten in the Holy Eucharist but never consumed. This is our Holy Tradition, not the traditions of men, but the Holy Tradition of Christ which has been handed down from the Holy Apostles to us. These teachings of Christ are timeless, eternal, and unchanging. They are certainly not open to interpretation.



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« Reply #831 on: May 25, 2013, 01:21:42 PM »

"Cyrillic, I'd still like to know which of the above verses are nonsense and far fetched. Please explain what you understand them to mean?"

There's not one interpretation for a dozen of quotes, but must just come down to the fact that the Holy Spirit aided the Apostles in their mission.

must = most btw.
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« Reply #832 on: May 25, 2013, 02:03:12 PM »


I think I have made my views on the importance of thinking clear on this forum. God says in his word that we are to reason with him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,

Matthew 22:36-38
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.


With tons of love Rachel, I appreciate and in one sense agree with some of your statement. But I don´t agree if you assert into Matthew 22:37 that "with all your mind" means that we should reason with the Lord. Jesus didn´t quote that to point out some sort of skepticism from our part as humans. But rather that we give fully our mind, whether we like things or not, to the Lord. We don´t reason with the Lord with all our mind, that is not in accordance in any way with Isaiah 1:18. He has made his truth known, and there is nothing to reason about.

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« Reply #833 on: May 25, 2013, 02:36:59 PM »

And look into the rest of Isaiah 1-18 and further. The reasoning is given by the Lord himself in the context. The context is about sins, faith and how the Lord will save us. Not that we reason if we got sins or not Tongue

Some translations may not be fair to the original text either. In NIV Isaiah 1:18 states:

“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
    says the Lord.

Gives another meaning actually. We could need a church to interpret this verse according to what always have been taught ^^
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 02:40:34 PM by Jovan » Logged

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« Reply #834 on: May 25, 2013, 04:08:30 PM »

I have known several people who have attended Bible college; I have not. Instead I attended a Catholic university during my undergraduate years, and ultimately graduated with an M.A. degree. Those people who have received useless degrees from unaccredited Bible colleges often end up parroting tracts that their "professors" and "Jack Chick" have taught them.
While that is sometimes true it seems to me overgeneralized and not the universal rule for all such institutions.

We should never just accept, without thinking, what anyone says to us regarding doctrine.
We don't. Hence the extreme skepticism regarding the historically very late-originated ideas you have imbibed, especially in lieu of an inability to address criticism convincingly if at all.

We have a local priest that use to be a Dispensationalist and received a PhD from Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the major hotbeds of that system (there actually aren't very many; not so long ago there was only DTS and Moody Bible Institute). He often remarks on how absurd he now regards his former beliefs, and how many years it took him to learn his way out of them, though he did also learn many valuable things too during that part of his lifelong pursuit of God. He later attended an Orthodox Seminary and is now working on another PhD under Father Andrew Louth.

Returning to your point, thinking is fine, but thinking alone is not enough; the devil can think and quote scripture; heretics can think and quote scripture. If one supposes themselves "saved" on the basis only of thoughts they hold regarding Christ and Christian theology in relation to what Christ did for them (as you seem to), there is a danger they are in reality a mere ideological believer, which a large number of Protestants as well as Orthodox Christians would regard as quite possibly still lost. Please answer my previous question about heretics when you get around to answering my earlier questions to you.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.[/color]
That is precisely what we are doing, testing the spirit and rational content of your assertions; so far you seem to be failing or simply dodging the tests.


Fig. 1  Nice Dodge?
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