Author Topic: How to Interpret the Scriptures  (Read 30524 times)

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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2013, 04:03:45 PM »
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.


Tee hee, this makes me laugh  :laugh:

I know, right? But this is the problem right here in a nutshell. "Solo Scriptura" Protestants don't even see the irony in claiming this.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline JamesR

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2013, 04:08:12 PM »
The Bible tells you to "call no man father".

Remember what I said about Americans not paying enough attention to the context of literature?

Jesus told the disciples not to "call no man father," not us. The reason for that is because the disciples received their teaching directly from God and were given the spirit of truth and the authority to understand and teach doctrine. There is no earthly authority or teacher at all who can teach them anything because they get their teaching from God alone. But as for us, we aren't the disciples, and thus, we can call teachers of the Church and Saints (many of which descended from the disciples) "father" because we still have much to learn.

Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2013, 03:11:32 AM »
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.


Tee hee, this makes me laugh  :laugh:

I know, right? But this is the problem right here in a nutshell. "Solo Scriptura" Protestants don't even see the irony in claiming this.

when you find me departing from scripture, you may point it out, but you believe all sorts of post-Biblical teaching. When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2013, 04:08:07 AM »
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.


Tee hee, this makes me laugh  :laugh:

I know, right? But this is the problem right here in a nutshell. "Solo Scriptura" Protestants don't even see the irony in claiming this.

when you find me departing from scripture, you may point it out, but you believe all sorts of post-Biblical teaching. When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?
When they baptised entire households? Or is it your contention that none of those households contained children (because that would be an extra-Scriptural teaching, you know)?

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline LBK

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2013, 04:10:13 AM »
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When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?

When they baptised entire households, such as those of Cornelius the Centurion and Lydia the seller of purple. Christ Himself also urged his disciples to permit the children to come to Him, and that the children not be hindered from doing so.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2013, 05:41:38 AM »
scripture speaks of judgement,  how do you conclude there is an "overemphasis"?

I would understand the references to judgement and legality in the Scriptures to be--as all imagery in the Scriptures--metaphor serving a pedagogical purpose to emphasize a certain point or spiritual lesson.

so God sent Israel into exile as a pedagogical exercise! You PRESUPPOSE that God's righteous anger with sin is mere imagery! That reduces Calvary to a mere incident! You are being very helpful in elucidating the depth of delusion I'm dealing with here! Go on, tell me what the 'spiritual lesson' in the concept of 'judgement' is.

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In Christ's parables and in various parts of the Bible, we see SEVERAL different similes and metaphors of what God is like and what it will be like. when we stand before Him. None of them should fully be understand as the 100% literal truth.

because? Your scriptural evidence is?

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This is what the Fathers of the Church bear witness to in their writings.

well, they wouldn't have departed from the Apostles writings would they? So you must be able to give me the scriptural basis for their views.

 
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St. Isaac the Syrian especially said that references and imagery of judgement in the Bible shouldn't be understand as literally, and that "mercy triumphs judgement."

St Rachel asks where St Isaac could possibly have got such an idea? Surely scripture is of no-one's own interpretation?

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I have no doubt that guilt and forgiveness plays at least some part in salvation, but my thoughts are that the west overemphasizes it through virtually ignoring deification/theosis and only focusing on attaining a legal acquittal from God, reducing salvation to a single, one-time event.
The same spirit which raised Christ from the dead dwells in me. I am seated with Christ in the heavenlies - that is PRECISELY why I don't need a church to tell me what to think. Salvation is a one-time event because either a man is a new creation or he isn't. Sanctification  is ongoing and is predestined . The Bible teaches this.

Romans 8:29-31
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?


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the Bible teaches that Christ will return as judge.

This is what I mean by Americans not paying enough attention to literary techniques and context--such as hyperbole, imagery, metaphor or poetry. This especially shines through their biblical exgesis.

in other words, he didn't mean it. Perhaps their exegesis takes account of literary techniques but also understands that context is to determine the normal, rational, reading of the text.

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Just because the Bible says Christ will return as a judge does not mean you have to take it 100% literally-

so the Great White Throne Judgement will just be a slap on the wrist? or do you mean it is a lie, or are you not sure? When scripture tells me, "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", it seems a reasonable deduction that, for others, the converse is true.

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-especially the consensus of the Church Fathers was that you didn't,
and what scriptural grounds did they give for this idea?

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and strict literalism didn't arise until the 19th century.

do you mean no-one believed the truth of any proposition until the 19th century? This is a bit ironic, since it was Hegel who changed the perceived nature of 'truth'.
 
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You may have justice under law or mercy under grace.

Having justice and mercy is a contradiction.

I didn't say you could have both.
 
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You either accept one or the other. I accept mercy because if I were to accept justice, I'd probably not deserve to live.

good choice. So why don't you?

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true. Paul himself makes the point.

I sure haven't seen it. I've seen several allusions to Christ destroying death and paying the "ransom", but nothing suggesting that it was to God the Father. I find it disturbing how western Christianity has no problem accepting scapegoating.



3     He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4     ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5     But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6     All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7     He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8     He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9     And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10     ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


and here's the scapegoat:

Leviticus 16:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)
Leviticus 16:9-11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot for the [a]scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

11 “Then Aaron shall offer the bull of the sin offering which is for himself and make atonement for himself and for his household, and he shall slaughter the bull of the sin offering which is for himself.


 
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Once saved,  you have "passed from death unto life" there is, "therefore now no condemnation".

A legalistic acquittal; just as I said. In Orthodoxy, we have deification.

but scripture tells you there is no condemnation for the redeemed. OK, another scripture you don't believe.

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So you don't acknowledge your true moral guilt before a righteous God.

LOL. I always find it funny when Protestants accuse us of this.

it wasn't an accusation. I am not your judge. It was an observation.
 
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Open up any Orthodox Prayer book and you will see more prayers of repentance that go one for pages than in probably any other religion.

yes, have ever considered the reason for this? Why are you repenting of a "disease" anyway? You seem confused. Do you "repent of malaria or cancer?

The Orthodox Prayer Book is stuffed with repentance because you don't believe God so you're never free of your sense of unworthiness because you don't have the righteousness of Christ.
 
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We certainly acknowledge our badness,

did you mean 'sin'? I can just hear Satan whispering to you, "don't talk about sin, it isn't nice".

 
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but instead of focusing so much on merely being "forgiven" and "acquitted" of it through scapegoating, we focus on allowing God to heal us of it.

yes, so you never sin and you're never forgiven but you never feel clean - he's worked a really good one on you hasn't he?!!

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If you're not guilty, you have nothing to repent of. The Pharisees thought they were righteous too!

Only I never said I wasn't guilty  ;)

what can you be guilty of, catching a disease?!

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which scripture do you get this from?


I listed several in my excerpt. Did you even read the whole thing?

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Define sin.

"Missing the mark"

like an accident? Not a breach of the Commandments then?

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Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:17-19 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

I don't get your point.

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ah, you don't sin,

Strawman of my position.

and sin is true moral guilt - the breach of a commandment?
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Plus, if you've ever seen my countless threads on self-abuse, you'd see that I'm one of the most open sinners here  ;) 

ok, so you have a sex drive. I don't want you to misunderstand me here but, who told you this was sin?
Jesus can set you free from that addiction . It doesn't mean you will never do it  again but he will break the addiction.

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so you don't need salvation ie

Yes I do; I still need to be healed and restored as "partakers of the Divine nature." I don't think you read anything at all I wrote about salvation but just paraphrased a few sentences.

ok, this tells me that you don't recognise yourself as already having it. This is possibly because someone told you a person is saved by baptism and you don't get to wonder why you don't 'feel' saved because the same person confused salvation with sanctification so you think you might wake up one morning feeling 'saved'. In the meantime you keep working at it; keep repenting of your disease. The Devil makes good treadmills!

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Have you never read of God's anger with Israel's sin?

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That was all an act on God's part to instill a concept of right and wrong in the Israeli people and to prepare them for His true character--which is that of a doctor who wants to heal you. Hence the pedagogical purpose. In order to accept healing and mercy, one has to accept that they have something wrong with them. God's harshness toward Israel did just that.

the Bible tells you that the concept of right and wrong comes through the Law. That is its entire purpose. Israel's problem was not that she didn't know right from wrong. If that had been the case, God would have been unjust to punish them. Israel's problem was that she couldn't DO what she knew to be right. Like your issue - you know what you believe to be right but can't do it. That is because we have a fallen Adamic nature. That is why God doesn't just forgive our sins, he deals with the root of the problem by putting a new nature within us. Before that we are, "dead in trespasses and sins" because the old nature is unresponsive to God. 

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the Bible teaches that your spirit is immortal but you will lose your soul.

I don't understand what you mean here nor what point you are making. Then again, being a big rationalist, I have trouble understanding any mystical terms such as "spirit" or "soul."

I'm glad you value rationality. So does God. Both are scriptural terms. The Bible teaches that Man is a trinity. This is not Gnosticism. It teaches the equivalence of the body. Jesus teaches that the unredeemed lose their soul. ie in Hell there are disembodied spirits because the human spirit is immortal.

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It teaches that the ultimate consequence of sin is eternal separation from God.

No it doesn't; prove it.

12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the [c]expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And [r]besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

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 Especially when 2 Thessalonians 1 tells us that people are tormented FROM the presence of God's glory; not because of "separation" from Him. Just as St. Isaac the Syrian said that hellfire is the love of God.

St Isaac may have changed his mind by now! Here it is:

8     In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9     Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


ie, they are 'shut out from' the presence of the Lord.

Here it is:

Matthew 8:11-13
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and [a]recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

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Do you actually read your Bible?

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I've been quoting several Scriptures in my correspondance with you along with my quoted works I've linked; I'd say I do  :D Only difference is that I don't rush through it in a speed contest like Protestants who gloss over the true meaning in order to be able to brag about how fast they read it. It took me a over a year to complete the New Testament, and I don't regret one bit of the time I took  :angel:

this is excellent - there is a place for different approaches.

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the  Bible says, th "wages of sin is death". How is that NOT a "consequence"?

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It is a consequence; just not from God and not in the sense of punishment. It is a consequence in the same sense that if you eat McDonalds every day, you will become obese.
if you sin, the consequence is that you'll be punished.
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2013, 05:45:00 AM »
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When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?

When they baptised entire households, such as those of Cornelius the Centurion and Lydia the seller of purple. Christ Himself also urged his disciples to permit the children to come to Him, and that the children not be hindered from doing so.

not so, we're not told how old the children of Cornelius or Lydia were. "Coming to Jesus" is not synonymous with baptism.
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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2013, 05:48:18 AM »
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.


Tee hee, this makes me laugh  :laugh:

I know, right? But this is the problem right here in a nutshell. "Solo Scriptura" Protestants don't even see the irony in claiming this.

when you find me departing from scripture, you may point it out, but you believe all sorts of post-Biblical teaching. When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?
When they baptised entire households? Or is it your contention that none of those households contained children (because that would be an extra-Scriptural teaching, you know)?

James

it is an "extra-scriptural teaching" to ASSUME they contained children and THEN to proceed to base your doctrine of salvation upon THAT assumption!!!
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2013, 05:52:25 AM »
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When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?

When they baptised entire households, such as those of Cornelius the Centurion and Lydia the seller of purple. Christ Himself also urged his disciples to permit the children to come to Him, and that the children not be hindered from doing so.

not so, we're not told how old the children of Cornelius or Lydia were. "Coming to Jesus" is not synonymous with baptism.

In that case, you can't determine how old they were either. You just presume they were not young.
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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2013, 05:52:40 AM »
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As for numbers not carrying literal significance, this is most strange. When God attaches a number of years to a genealogy for example, it tells us something literal. Now, the fact that Orthodoxy has no insight into these things is another matter. Why don't you just say so? Since your insight is supposedly 'spiritual', go ahead and give me the 'spiritual' meaning of Daniel's 70 weeks. It is the cover story for every gap in Orthodox thinking.

I see.  From Matthew 18:

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Therefore, by Rachel's logic, we are obliged to forgive the sins of others up to 490 times. After that, we are not required to do so.  :o ::) :laugh:

I note that you don't seem to be able to apply the normal rules of comprehension. So when God says, "six days shalt thou labour", it didn't mean a thing!
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Offline Arachne

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2013, 05:53:31 AM »
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.


Tee hee, this makes me laugh  :laugh:

I know, right? But this is the problem right here in a nutshell. "Solo Scriptura" Protestants don't even see the irony in claiming this.

when you find me departing from scripture, you may point it out, but you believe all sorts of post-Biblical teaching. When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?
When they baptised entire households? Or is it your contention that none of those households contained children (because that would be an extra-Scriptural teaching, you know)?

James

it is an "extra-scriptural teaching" to ASSUME they contained children and THEN to proceed to base your doctrine of salvation upon THAT assumption!!!

Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2013, 05:54:50 AM »
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.


Tee hee, this makes me laugh  :laugh:

I know, right? But this is the problem right here in a nutshell. "Solo Scriptura" Protestants don't even see the irony in claiming this.

when you find me departing from scripture, you may point it out, but you believe all sorts of post-Biblical teaching. When did the Apostles teach you paedobaptism?
When they baptised entire households? Or is it your contention that none of those households contained children (because that would be an extra-Scriptural teaching, you know)?

James

it is an "extra-scriptural teaching" to ASSUME they contained children and THEN to proceed to base your doctrine of salvation upon THAT assumption!!!
it is an "extra-scriptural teaching" to ASSUME they did not contain children and THEN to proceed to base your doctrine of salvation upon THAT assumption!!!
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline LBK

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2013, 06:02:05 AM »
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well, they wouldn't have departed from the Apostles writings would they? So you must be able to give me the scriptural basis for their views.

The only apostles whose writings feature in the NT are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. They are fewer than twelve, and far, far fewer than the Seventy. Does this mean that the other apostles, appointed by Christ Himself, are simply there for decoration?

Moreover, you're still failing to see this chasm of error: the Apostles came first, not the books of the NT. The Apostles were out there teaching the world long before the NT as we know it existed. And, before you jump in and say "but the OT was around then", we are Christians, not Jews. The OT is a type and shadow of the fullness of the revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 06:02:43 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2013, 06:09:58 AM »
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well, they wouldn't have departed from the Apostles writings would they? So you must be able to give me the scriptural basis for their views.

The only apostles whose writings feature in the NT are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. They are fewer than twelve, and far, far fewer than the Seventy. Does this mean that the other apostles, appointed by Christ Himself, are simply there for decoration?

you appear to be asserting that the life of anyone who doesn't write something, is wasted in God's eyes. This is odd.

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Moreover, you're still failing to see this chasm of error: the Apostles came first, not the books of the NT. The Apostles were out there teaching the world long before the NT as we know it existed. And, before you jump in and say "but the OT was around then", we are Christians, not Jews. The OT is a type and shadow of the fullness of the revelation of God in the person of Jesus Christ.

all good stuff but your point is obscure. Are you alleging that the Spirit didn't give us all that is necessary for the salvation of souls and the governance of the Church? Because Scripture disagrees.
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2013, 06:14:22 AM »
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you appear to be asserting that the life of anyone who doesn't write something, is wasted in God's eyes. This is odd.

Actually, that is what he is accusing you of asserting.
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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2013, 06:17:55 AM »


Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

yes, you base doctrine on an assumption. The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

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But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.

"there is a way that seemeth right to a man" etc. You are called to subject common sense to Jesus.
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Offline LBK

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2013, 06:20:53 AM »
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well, they wouldn't have departed from the Apostles writings would they? So you must be able to give me the scriptural basis for their views.

The only apostles whose writings feature in the NT are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. They are fewer than twelve, and far, far fewer than the Seventy. Does this mean that the other apostles, appointed by Christ Himself, are simply there for decoration?

you appear to be asserting that the life of anyone who doesn't write something, is wasted in God's eyes. This is odd.


Yet you are the one asserting that only the writings of the Apostles which have found their way into the NT are of doctrinal value, anything extra-biblical is not.

all good stuff but your point is obscure. Are you alleging that the Spirit didn't give us all that is necessary for the salvation of souls and the governance of the Church? Because Scripture disagrees.

You still can't, or won't, see your colossal error. You are reducing the teaching of the Holy Spirit to the words of a series of books, and the testimony of those apostles who did not leave behind writings which are part of the Bible to irrelevance.

Such is the fallacy of sola scriptura.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 06:21:13 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2013, 06:21:04 AM »


Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

yes, you base doctrine on an assumption. The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

Quote
But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.

"there is a way that seemeth right to a man" etc. You are called to subject common sense to Jesus.

There does not exist one definition of common sense. What is reasonable to one person may be nonsense to another.
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Offline LBK

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2013, 06:24:29 AM »
Quote
The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

Really? The Gospels don't say so, in the accounts of the Lord's entry into Jerusalem:

15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #109 on: April 19, 2013, 06:42:19 AM »

Thank you for your response, if I may ask 2 more questions for my edification.

How can I be sure that the Holy Spirit indwells me?

Are you sure, I mean like 100% sure, that the Holy Spirit is in you?

Again thank you!

of course, you're very welcome.

When you accept the gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit will indwell you. That is the promise of Jesus. You may not feel a difference at first, experiences are different, but over time he will make his  presence known. I don't know your situation of course but remember that you can ask him to explain scriptures to you and guide you in the practical issues of daily life. He wants a moment by moment relationship with us.

You may have noticed that I referred to Cornelius as having been 'baptised in the Holy Spirit'. This is scriptural. You may remember that John said of Jesus, "I baptise you with water but he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". There is no reason why you should not ask for this. Jesus uses it to draw us into closer relationship with himself, to give us a real knowledge of his presence and to empower us for service.

I have not a single doubt of my eternal destiny, that my sins are forgiven, that I am indwelt of his Spirit and that my real home is not here!
 
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline Happy Lutheran

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #110 on: April 19, 2013, 06:43:11 AM »
"All Nations" include children.

"Of the baptism of children we hold that children ought to be baptized. For they belong to the promised redemption made through Christ, and the Church should administer it [Baptism and the announcement of that promise] to them."

Martin Luther
1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #111 on: April 19, 2013, 06:48:08 AM »
"All Nations" include children.

"Of the baptism of children we hold that children ought to be baptized. For they belong to the promised redemption made through Christ, and the Church should administer it [Baptism and the announcement of that promise] to them."

Martin Luther

Nice that we can agree on something.  :)
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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #112 on: April 19, 2013, 06:51:58 AM »
Quote
you appear to be asserting that the life of anyone who doesn't write something, is wasted in God's eyes. This is odd.

Actually, that is what he is accusing you of asserting.

I can't imagine where he got the idea. God chose those he would use to form the canon. The Bible is not there for us to interpret, base assumptions on or build speculative stories around. It is not like any other book. There is plenty of work to do in building the Kingdom, literary and otherwise.
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #113 on: April 19, 2013, 06:56:02 AM »
Quote
you appear to be asserting that the life of anyone who doesn't write something, is wasted in God's eyes. This is odd.

Actually, that is what he is accusing you of asserting.

I can't imagine where he got the idea. God chose those he would use to form the canon. The Bible is not there for us to interpret, base assumptions on or build speculative stories around. It is not like any other book. There is plenty of work to do in building the Kingdom, literary and otherwise.

The apostles interpreted the scriptures to the jews in order to show them that Jesus was the Messiah. Interpretation is to find the meaning of a certain text. That is what we do and that is what you are doing.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #114 on: April 19, 2013, 07:29:33 AM »
Perhaps this is why you have no assurance of salvation.

Actually,
Quote
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)
this is why we have no assurance of salvation. It's right there in the Bible.

this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.

Also,
Quote
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.
this is why we adhere to Scripture and extra/post-biblical teaching. Paul told us to, and it is even in the Bible! The Bible itself speaks against Sola Sriptura!

perhaps you would show me where!


this is why we have assurance.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:12-14 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:29-31 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #115 on: April 19, 2013, 08:02:35 AM »
this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.


Who? Maybe some Protestants might think they were saved by their baptism (though I've never yet come across an adherent to OSAS who thinks that way about baptism at all) but it's certainly not true of the Orthodox with whom you're attempting to argue and nor is it the case for Roman Catholics to the best of my knowledge, so just who do you imagine these 'all sorts of people' to be?

Honestly, if you want to debate, you should start actually debating. So far you're showing no sign of stopping to understand (and rebut if you can) the answers you are being given, so this thread comes across as preaching at us rather than debating with us. You appear to know next to nothing about Orthodox Christianity, continue to insist on assuming that if we use a word you use then we must mean exactly the same thing by it, even when you're told otherwise, and seem to have homed in on the occasionally unwise phrases of a particular poster which you can see an opportunity to twist and score points with whilst failing to engage with the majority of questions and points that have been made by others.

If you came here to preach at us and convince us of how wrong we are, you may as well just go back where you came from. I doubt very much that you'll convince anyone here, particularly not when displaying such ignorance of what we actually believe (and whilst nobody could blame you for arriving here with said ignorance, the fact that you show no signs of attempting to educate yourself is something else entirely). You either do not realise or have chosen to ignore the fact that many of us here are converts to Orthodoxy from sola scriptura traditions. Do you honestly think that your preaching is going to suddenly convince us that we were wrong to reject them? During my enquiry I came across far better arguments than the ones you have put forward here and none of them stood up to scrutiny.

James
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 08:04:05 AM by jmbejdl »
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline Ashman618

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #116 on: April 19, 2013, 08:07:22 AM »

Thank you for your response, if I may ask 2 more questions for my edification.

How can I be sure that the Holy Spirit indwells me?

Are you sure, I mean like 100% sure, that the Holy Spirit is in you?

Again thank you!

of course, you're very welcome.

When you accept the gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit will indwell you. That is the promise of Jesus. You may not feel a difference at first, experiences are different, but over time he will make his  presence known. I don't know your situation of course but remember that you can ask him to explain scriptures to you and guide you in the practical issues of daily life. He wants a moment by moment relationship with us.

You may have noticed that I referred to Cornelius as having been 'baptised in the Holy Spirit'. This is scriptural. You may remember that John said of Jesus, "I baptise you with water but he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". There is no reason why you should not ask for this. Jesus uses it to draw us into closer relationship with himself, to give us a real knowledge of his presence and to empower us for service.

I have not a single doubt of my eternal destiny, that my sins are forgiven, that I am indwelt of his Spirit and that my real home is not here!
 

So then you would affirm that from the time of the reception of the Holy Spirit, there is a process of growth which we must undergo???

And if this is so does the growth process ever end?????

Thanks so much!

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #117 on: April 19, 2013, 08:13:39 AM »
this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.


Who? Maybe some Protestants might think they were saved by their baptism (though I've never yet come across an adherent to OSAS who thinks that way about baptism at all) but it's certainly not true of the Orthodox with whom you're attempting to argue and nor is it the case for Roman Catholics to the best of my knowledge, so just who do you imagine these 'all sorts of people' to be?

Honestly, if you want to debate, you should start actually debating. So far you're showing no sign of stopping to understand (and rebut if you can) the answers you are being given, so this thread comes across as preaching at us rather than debating with us. You appear to know next to nothing about Orthodox Christianity, continue to insist on assuming that if we use a word you use then we must mean exactly the same thing by it, even when you're told otherwise, and seem to have homed in on the occasionally unwise phrases of a particular poster which you can see an opportunity to twist and score points with whilst failing to engage with the majority of questions and points that have been made by others.

If you came here to preach at us and convince us of how wrong we are, you may as well just go back where you came from. I doubt very much that you'll convince anyone here, particularly not when displaying such ignorance of what we actually believe (and whilst nobody could blame you for arriving here with said ignorance, the fact that you show no signs of attempting to educate yourself is something else entirely). You either do not realise or have chosen to ignore the fact that many of us here are converts to Orthodoxy from sola scriptura traditions. Do you honestly think that your preaching is going to suddenly convince us that we were wrong to reject them? During my enquiry I came across far better arguments than the ones you have put forward here and none of them stood up to scrutiny.

James
In her defense, I actually think she has been quite civil most of the time, considering how often threads in here end up in fist fights.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 08:17:37 AM by Ansgar »
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #118 on: April 19, 2013, 09:01:23 AM »
this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.


Who? Maybe some Protestants might think they were saved by their baptism (though I've never yet come across an adherent to OSAS who thinks that way about baptism at all) but it's certainly not true of the Orthodox with whom you're attempting to argue and nor is it the case for Roman Catholics to the best of my knowledge, so just who do you imagine these 'all sorts of people' to be?

Honestly, if you want to debate, you should start actually debating. So far you're showing no sign of stopping to understand (and rebut if you can) the answers you are being given, so this thread comes across as preaching at us rather than debating with us. You appear to know next to nothing about Orthodox Christianity, continue to insist on assuming that if we use a word you use then we must mean exactly the same thing by it, even when you're told otherwise, and seem to have homed in on the occasionally unwise phrases of a particular poster which you can see an opportunity to twist and score points with whilst failing to engage with the majority of questions and points that have been made by others.

If you came here to preach at us and convince us of how wrong we are, you may as well just go back where you came from. I doubt very much that you'll convince anyone here, particularly not when displaying such ignorance of what we actually believe (and whilst nobody could blame you for arriving here with said ignorance, the fact that you show no signs of attempting to educate yourself is something else entirely). You either do not realise or have chosen to ignore the fact that many of us here are converts to Orthodoxy from sola scriptura traditions. Do you honestly think that your preaching is going to suddenly convince us that we were wrong to reject them? During my enquiry I came across far better arguments than the ones you have put forward here and none of them stood up to scrutiny.

James
In her defense, I actually think she has been quite civil most of the time, considering how often threads in here end up in fist fights.

I didn't say that she wasn't being civil. She is, but she's still coming across as preaching rather than debating. She doesn't seem interested in understanding what it is that we believe, merely in telling us that we're wrong, whatever it might be.

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline leap of faith

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #119 on: April 19, 2013, 09:11:43 AM »
This one, James?

Dear rachel,

How would you respond to Jesus' Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being.

you may not have noticed that I'm having to exercise patience too.

 
Quote
It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided.  James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee?  Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!...  ::) ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions. 

aah! A forum without debate? That's novel!
Quote
For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?"  (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)
Do you remember when Samuel said to Saul, "what is the sound of bleating that I hear"? Do you think perhaps God may just be interested in our obedience and not in our rationalisations? I wasn't asking WHY you disobey, I was just pointing out that you do.

Regarding the 'father' point:  That we are disobeying is your *assumption* based upon what you have been taught.  Scriptural references refuting that have been given...which you ignore.  Additionally, St. Paul refers to Timothy as his son several times in scripture. Even as a protestant, I could see that "we" were purposefully misusing the "call no man father" scripture for our distaste of anything "Catholic." You ask for scripture.  We give it.  You ignore it and take off in a different tangent. 

And, you continue to refuse to address the wheat and the tares.  But I will, to be fair, warn that this parable was explained by Christ.  We must proceed very carefully, as its meaning is not up for debate.

Offline Arachne

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #120 on: April 19, 2013, 09:38:48 AM »
As Father Brown puts it:

Quote
Sir Arthur St. Clare, as I have already said, was a man who read his Bible. That was what was the matter with him. When will people understand that it is useless for a man to read his Bible unless he also reads everybody else's Bible? A printer reads a Bible for misprints. A Mormon reads his Bible, and finds polygamy; a Christian Scientist reads his, and finds we have no arms and legs. St. Clare was an old Anglo-Indian Protestant soldier. Now, just think what that might mean; and, for Heaven's sake, don't cant about it. It might mean a man physically formidable living under a tropic sun in an Oriental society, and soaking himself without sense or guidance in an Oriental Book. Of course, he read the Old Testament rather than the New. Of course, he found in the Old Testament anything that he wanted -- lust, tyranny, treason. Oh, I dare say he was honest, as you call it. But what is the good of a man being honest in his worship of dishonesty?

http://fiction.eserver.org/short/innocence/brokensword.html
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #121 on: April 19, 2013, 09:43:17 AM »
this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.


Who? Maybe some Protestants might think they were saved by their baptism (though I've never yet come across an adherent to OSAS who thinks that way about baptism at all) but it's certainly not true of the Orthodox with whom you're attempting to argue and nor is it the case for Roman Catholics to the best of my knowledge, so just who do you imagine these 'all sorts of people' to be?

Honestly, if you want to debate, you should start actually debating. So far you're showing no sign of stopping to understand (and rebut if you can) the answers you are being given, so this thread comes across as preaching at us rather than debating with us. You appear to know next to nothing about Orthodox Christianity, continue to insist on assuming that if we use a word you use then we must mean exactly the same thing by it, even when you're told otherwise, and seem to have homed in on the occasionally unwise phrases of a particular poster which you can see an opportunity to twist and score points with whilst failing to engage with the majority of questions and points that have been made by others.

If you came here to preach at us and convince us of how wrong we are, you may as well just go back where you came from. I doubt very much that you'll convince anyone here, particularly not when displaying such ignorance of what we actually believe (and whilst nobody could blame you for arriving here with said ignorance, the fact that you show no signs of attempting to educate yourself is something else entirely). You either do not realise or have chosen to ignore the fact that many of us here are converts to Orthodoxy from sola scriptura traditions. Do you honestly think that your preaching is going to suddenly convince us that we were wrong to reject them? During my enquiry I came across far better arguments than the ones you have put forward here and none of them stood up to scrutiny.

James
In her defense, I actually think she has been quite civil most of the time, considering how often threads in here end up in fist fights.

I didn't say that she wasn't being civil. She is, but she's still coming across as preaching rather than debating. She doesn't seem interested in understanding what it is that we believe, merely in telling us that we're wrong, whatever it might be.

James

You have a point, but I still think we have had far worse cases than this.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline genesisone

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #122 on: April 19, 2013, 11:04:50 AM »


this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.
Just like there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've said the Sinner's Prayer - an example of which I cannot find in Scripture - that is, show me in Scripture where someone was instructed to pray the "Sinner's Prayer" in order to be saved.

You may also want to revise your definition of save/salvation/etc in order to be better understood here. I've pointed that out to you before, but I know you're busy defending your version of "the Rapture" - a doctrine that I jettisoned thirty years before becoming Orthodox. Anyway, just run a search for those words and you'll see that they mean far more than a conversion experience.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #123 on: April 19, 2013, 12:05:21 PM »
Dear Rachel - the plain truth is that no one comes to Scripture with a blank slate. It's impossible. We all interpret/understand Scripture through the lenses of our own personal experiences, education, personality, and yes, biases - if you will, in the context of our own individual traditions and history. There are also different types or kinds of Scripture: poetic, metaphorical, allegorical etc. which all have lessons or spiritual truths to teach us. We don't, for instance, read "The Lord is my rock" and conclude that God is a hard inert mineral - we know it means that God is steadfast and trustworthy.

Devout, sincere and dedicated Christians can and do understand Scripture in many different ways. You mentioned infant baptism - honestly you can pretty much prooftext the subject either way. What we do know is that infant baptism was practiced by the Church from the earliest days of Christianity. We know this from the Fathers, from history (Roman Christian burial inscriptions, for instance) and from the universal practice of infant baptism by the Church up until the Anabaptists got so upset about it approx. 500 years ago.
The same with the Real Presence and many other doctrines.
The existance of so many different Protestant sects, each one with its own particular understanding/interpretation of Scripture shows the logical endpoint of "Solo Scriptura" - "each man his own Pope," as the saying goes.
So how do you know? Sure you can say that the Holy Spirit is leading you to your own particular interpretation, but how do you really know? Haven't you ever been mistaken about something? Haven't you ever rationalized your conduct or actions so that you could do what you want with a clear conscience?
Can you be absolutely 100% sure that your current beliefs are correct and unchangeable?

If most people would answer honestly, they would admit that they can't be sure.

And that is where the Church and Holy Tradition comes in.

You can check yourself and your beliefs against what the Church has taught at all times and in all places (to paraphrase St. Vincent of Lerins). That is, what has historical Christianity always, from the earliest times, believed, preached and taught.
I invite you to set out on this exciting journey of discovery. I think that you will be surprised at what you discover.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #124 on: April 19, 2013, 12:39:06 PM »
the Bible is clear on all these issues. Unanimity of belief is not a guarantee that a church is part of the Universal Church, it just  indicates unanimity of belief and whether this is nominal or actual is a moot point . It may be simply a sign that members believe what they're told unquestioningly or even that they don't really care!

Where is your bible quote?

You keep on referencing the Bible without a quote or link and hence do not prove your point at all.

What Bible college did you attend?

Are you unaware of the Lord's Letters to the Churches? Start  at Revelation 1

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline dcommini

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #125 on: April 19, 2013, 01:09:12 PM »
the Bible is clear on all these issues. Unanimity of belief is not a guarantee that a church is part of the Universal Church, it just  indicates unanimity of belief and whether this is nominal or actual is a moot point . It may be simply a sign that members believe what they're told unquestioningly or even that they don't really care!

Where is your bible quote?

You keep on referencing the Bible without a quote or link and hence do not prove your point at all.

What Bible college did you attend?

Are you unaware of the Lord's Letters to the Churches? Start  at Revelation 1



No, we have taken the time and effort to quote scripture for you, some of us even posted links to relevant material (let it be noted that you didn't take the time to read much of what we posted or linked to). The burden of proof is on you. Let us see your proof, show us how wise and full of knowledge you are.
OblSB

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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #126 on: April 19, 2013, 01:14:52 PM »

Thank you for your response, if I may ask 2 more questions for my edification.

How can I be sure that the Holy Spirit indwells me?

Are you sure, I mean like 100% sure, that the Holy Spirit is in you?

Again thank you!

of course, you're very welcome.

When you accept the gift of salvation, the Holy Spirit will indwell you. That is the promise of Jesus. You may not feel a difference at first, experiences are different, but over time he will make his  presence known. I don't know your situation of course but remember that you can ask him to explain scriptures to you and guide you in the practical issues of daily life. He wants a moment by moment relationship with us.

You may have noticed that I referred to Cornelius as having been 'baptised in the Holy Spirit'. This is scriptural. You may remember that John said of Jesus, "I baptise you with water but he will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". There is no reason why you should not ask for this. Jesus uses it to draw us into closer relationship with himself, to give us a real knowledge of his presence and to empower us for service.

I have not a single doubt of my eternal destiny, that my sins are forgiven, that I am indwelt of his Spirit and that my real home is not here!
 

So then you would affirm that from the time of the reception of the Holy Spirit, there is a process of growth which we must undergo???

And if this is so does the growth process ever end?????

Thanks so much!
yes, there is a process of growth which we call sanctification. This is the work of the Spirit which is completed when we die because we cannot live with God in an unsanctified state. 
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline dcommini

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #127 on: April 19, 2013, 01:19:58 PM »
Perhaps this is why you have no assurance of salvation.

Actually,
Quote
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)
this is why we have no assurance of salvation. It's right there in the Bible.

this is because there are all sorts of people who think they're saved because they've been told they were saved by baptism.

Also,
Quote
15     Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


This is why we adhere to scripture and are wary of post-Biblical teaching.
this is why we adhere to Scripture and extra/post-biblical teaching. Paul told us to, and it is even in the Bible! The Bible itself speaks against Sola Sriptura!

perhaps you would show me where!


I already did! I even bolded, italicized, and underlined the scripture up there for you. Perhaps if you actually took the time to read you would be aware of your folly.

Since I know you won't bother to read the scripture you yourself quoted I will tell you what it is that St. Paul says... He says to follow the tradition given to us by word and letter. Word and letter. He does not say to only follow the letter, as that would be folly since many things Jesus and the Apostles said and did are not recorded in the Bible.
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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #128 on: April 19, 2013, 01:21:11 PM »
Quote
In fact, there is far more actual scripture read, prayed, and chanted in the Orthodox services than in the typical Protestant service where actual scripture merely provides a springboard for the preacher's personal sermon.

A point which is, all too often, overlooked by the vast majority of non-liturgical protestants.

and how much attention do you pay to it? Your avatar has "Holy Father Patrick". The Bible tells you to "call no man father".

What do you call the man who is married to your mother?

you'd better argue it with Jesus.
Matthew 23:8-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [a]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #129 on: April 19, 2013, 01:25:50 PM »
Quote
In fact, there is far more actual scripture read, prayed, and chanted in the Orthodox services than in the typical Protestant service where actual scripture merely provides a springboard for the preacher's personal sermon.

A point which is, all too often, overlooked by the vast majority of non-liturgical protestants.

and how much attention do you pay to it? Your avatar has "Holy Father Patrick". The Bible tells you to "call no man father".

What do you call the man who is married to your mother?

you'd better argue it with Jesus.
Matthew 23:8-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [a]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

That doesn't answer my question. What do you call the man who is married to your mother?
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

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Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #130 on: April 19, 2013, 01:28:54 PM »
The Bible tells you to "call no man father".

Remember what I said about Americans not paying enough attention to the context of literature?

Jesus told the disciples not to "call no man father," not us. The reason for that is because the disciples received their teaching directly from God and were given the spirit of truth and the authority to understand and teach doctrine.

Are you a disciple?
if you don't have the Spirit of truth, you don't have the Spirit of Jesus. The Bible says you may receive your teaching from God.

Quote
There is no earthly authority or teacher at all who can teach them anything because they get their teaching from God alone.

Scripture tells you the Spirit will "lead you into all truth".
Quote
But as for us, we aren't the disciples, and thus, we can call teachers of the Church and Saints (many of which descended from the disciples) "father" because we still have much to learn.
it is sad to hear you don't consider yourself a disciple.
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline rachel

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #131 on: April 19, 2013, 01:35:01 PM »

it is an "extra-scriptural teaching" to ASSUME they did not contain children and THEN to proceed to base your doctrine of salvation upon THAT assumption!!!

but my doctrine is not based on that assumption. It is based on the scriptural teaching that salvation is granted upon a free-will decision to repent of sin and make Jesus Lord of one's life - of which no infant is capable.
Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria,   Sola Scriptura

Offline leap of faith

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #132 on: April 19, 2013, 01:35:17 PM »
Quote
In fact, there is far more actual scripture read, prayed, and chanted in the Orthodox services than in the typical Protestant service where actual scripture merely provides a springboard for the preacher's personal sermon.

A point which is, all too often, overlooked by the vast majority of non-liturgical protestants.

and how much attention do you pay to it? Your avatar has "Holy Father Patrick". The Bible tells you to "call no man father".

What do you call the man who is married to your mother?

you'd better argue it with Jesus.
Matthew 23:8-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [a]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.


Not that I think you'll actually read it because I believe you are not the least bit interested in learning but... http://www.antiochian.org/node/19193

And, by the way, regarding the "Spirit will lead you to all truth" response.  Then, we'd all better become Mormons or Westboro Baptists because they will make the same claim.  Is the Holy Spirit bi-polar?  That is blasphemy.  Of course not. What then do you do with Phillip and the Ethiopian eunich in Acts where he states that it is impossible for him to understand the scriptures without a teacher?  Seriously, you need to stop being a "one-verse Charlie" and start understanding that the scriptures function as a whole and with a proper Apostolic teacher.  Stop ignoring the scriptures that completely contradict your claims and deal with them.

Offline leap of faith

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #133 on: April 19, 2013, 01:50:46 PM »
One more add to the "father" thing.  Reading the *entire* reference, Christ goes on that we should call no one instructor.  Hmmm...now what?  After all, you attended a "bible college."  You had instructors, did you not? You see.  It's clear, if a person is thinking rationally, that the meaning of this scripture is being twisted with the sole purpose of discounting the Church.

Offline Ansgar

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Re: How to Interpret the Scriptures
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2013, 01:52:53 PM »

it is an "extra-scriptural teaching" to ASSUME they did not contain children and THEN to proceed to base your doctrine of salvation upon THAT assumption!!!

but my doctrine is not based on that assumption. It is based on the scriptural teaching that salvation is granted upon a free-will decision to repent of sin and make Jesus Lord of one's life - of which no infant is capable.

We have had two-year old martyrs, who, openly confessed Christ. The scriptures talks about entire households. That they didn't include children IS an assumption, since you have no proof that there weren't any children.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite