of course he died physically, in fact he began to die physically immediately. I'm not sure where you see the dualism.......
If Adam died physically and spiritually, the why do you only focus on the spiritual element, which you label as being "born again" and reject the physical element? If we have to be healed spiritually through Christ to cancel out Adam's spiritual disease, then, wouldn't it also follow that we need to be healed physically as well to cancel out Adam's physical disease as well? And Baptism seems to be the means to do this, since St. Paul makes it very clear that Baptism is our death and resurrection in Christ (Rom. 6:4-5).
...in fact it's already been suggested that one has to achieve some sort of enlightened spiritual state BEFORE one can be saved. Now THAT is dualism!
I think you are misunderstanding. Are you referring to Orthodox theosis/deification? The process of reaching an "enlightened spiritual state" is NOT something that comes before you are "saved", rather, IT IS the process
of being "saved". Salvation to us is not mere forgiveness or the acquittal of a crime, or a single one-time event. But is the lifelong process
of being healed and restored to the image of Christ, as "...partakers of the Divine nature,"
(2 Pet. 1:4).
Sorry but this is a reductionist argument. Nowhere have I suggested that baptism is unscriptural. It is a public declaration and an act of obedience to Christ.
No it isn't. It is the act of participating in the death and resurrection of Christ, thus, a part of our salvation. See chapter 6 of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans. Reading Jesus' words about being born of water and spirit alongside St. Paul's words about Baptism in Romans seems to make a lot more sense and fit in together than this weirdo concept of being "spiritually born again" does.
Paul is elucidating the symbolic nature of baptism. As a witness to unbelievers it makes them question what is happening here.
Prove that it is symbolic in nature and not true. St. Paul says nothing to suggest that he is being symbolic, and nothing in the text at all suggests that he is being symbolic at that moment.
no, Peter was correct in drawing a valid parallel.
Once again, prove that St. Peter was merely drawing a symbolic parallel and didn't really mean that baptism is a step in salvation. For relying solely on the scriptures, you Protestants seem to reject their face-value meaning very much whenever it disagrees with your theological presuppositions.
But God clearly shows us that baptism without submission of one's life to Christ is meaningless and never salvific alone.
So? Baptism is still a step
of our salvation and shouldn't be rejected, nor should it be undermined with this "symbolic" mumbo jumbo to downplay its importance.
For example, Cornelius was saved
Salvation isn't a one-time event.
...baptised in the Holy Spirit AND spoke in tongues ALL before he was baptised in water
So? Using a special instance to go against the norm doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If God wants to work specially for someone like Cornelius given their circumstances at the time, then that is up to Him. But in normal circumstances and for us, the Scriptures make it very clear that Baptism is one of the utensils that God has chosen to work His salvific grace through. We shouldn't reject it, hoping that God will make a special exception to us, just because he made special exceptions for others in the past.
Never, in scripture will you find the Lord baptising in the Holy Spirit someone who is unsaved.
What are you talking about?
why you regard it as legalistic when Paul tells you that the redeemed are no longer under law but under grace, I can't imagine. Having said that, scripture refers to redemption as a "New Covenant". Are you suggesting that God considers 'law' in the universe to be redundant? Men decide whether to live under his justice or his mercy.
Because you still view salvation in the judicial sense of God being a judge, being "saved" as the one-time event of being acquitted from a crime, and Hell as being a sentence that God gives to people as punishment. In western Christianity, God is a judge. In Eastern Orthodoxy, however, God is a doctor. We accept that from a legalistic standard, there is nothing we can do to earn God's forgiveness. However, salvation to us is MORE than just forgiveness like in the west, but is the process of being healed and restored to the image of God. Baptism is one of the steps God has prescribed to us for treatment.
but Paul says I'm no longer under condemnation, ie acquitted - I'll take that!
St. Peter also says to be "partakers of the Divine nature,"
This is correct, but Paul also says:
21 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God
- in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.[/color]
so he still finds himself sinning. We continue to sin because although the old nature is nailed to the cross, it won't just lie down and die. The difference is, as the passage you quoted says, he is no longer SUBJECT to it, ie he can turn to the Lord who will ultimately give him the victory over it. This is part of the process of sanctification. It works! Try it!
I'm not sure what point you are making. The Scripture you quoted merely refers to the struggle and temptation to sin that we face generally our entire lifetime. And I would indeed agree that you can turn to God for help--in fact, that is the entire process of deification for us. HOWEVER, I CANNOT agree with you that we are given a "new nature." Mostly because there is nothing in the Scriptures or the Church to suggest we are, and because the Scriptures describe a resurrection of the death in which our old nature and body will be redeemed and resurrected like Christ. None of this suggests a "new nature" but rather a fixed and restored nature.
but the verse you've quoted doesn't tell you this, it tells you that my mortal body is to be controlled, not by my old nature, as Paul was saying,
There is no such thing as an "old nature", rather, our human nature was oppressed and diseased by sin and death. But that was done away with at Baptism. Now salvation consists in conforming our lives to Christ as partakers of the "Divine nature" so that our restored human natures can be elevated and fixed in the image of God.