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Author Topic: How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation?  (Read 891 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ashman618
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« on: April 14, 2013, 02:05:22 PM »

How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation, when and where is it offered to me?
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 06:18:47 PM »

How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation, when and where is it offered to me?

Dear Ashman,

In John, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born spiritually. This is because when Adam fell, he died spiritually and his relationship with God was broken. Jesus identifies the Adamic race with the words, you must be born of water". People mistakenly think that he was referring to baptism but no-one is saved through baptism, in fact there is absolutely nothing you can do to EARN salvation. As I said, scripture makes it quite clear that salvation can only be received as a free gift.

The other thing that this passage tells us is that God will not do some 'repair job' on our old Adamic natures. When we are born again, we are given a completely new nature which is responsive to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. This is why Paul describes those who are saved as 'new creations'. In fact, the Bible defines a Christian as someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

John 3 v 3-7:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3 v 14-16:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Isaiah tells us that Jesus took upon himself God's righteous anger with my sin when he died on the cross and that when I understood that I am a sinner, repented of my sin and accepted Jesus as Lord of my life, from that moment God no longer sees my sin but only the perfect righteousness of Jesus. From that moment, my sin was covered by the blood of Jesus which was shed for me and I started on the path of a new life and the awareness of having his Holy Spirit slowly developed within me.

Revelation 3 V 20:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


It really is as simple as this - for  many it is too simple but this is what the Bible plainly teaches -it is the beginning of a relationship with Jesus, not a matter of religious rites. As Paul said, the Law, the commandments were intended to make us aware of sin but once we are saved we are to live by grace, that means we are to simply live our lives under the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Come to his cross, repent, accept Jesus as Lord and receive the free gift of new life!

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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 07:56:54 PM »

How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation, when and where is it offered to me?

Dear Ashman,

In John, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born spiritually. This is because when Adam fell, he died spiritually and his relationship with God was broken. Jesus identifies the Adamic race with the words, you must be born of water". People mistakenly think that he was referring to baptism but no-one is saved through baptism, in fact there is absolutely nothing you can do to EARN salvation. As I said, scripture makes it quite clear that salvation can only be received as a free gift.

The other thing that this passage tells us is that God will not do some 'repair job' on our old Adamic natures. When we are born again, we are given a completely new nature which is responsive to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. This is why Paul describes those who are saved as 'new creations'. In fact, the Bible defines a Christian as someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

John 3 v 3-7:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Born of water is a physical birth. Everyone must be born physically.  Being born of the spirit can not occur while in the physical realm. So one must be born in the physical world and them born into the spiritual world before you can enter the Kingdom.  Yeshua said His kingdom was not of this world. Flesh begets flesh...spirit begets spirit! All "born again" Christians are wrong.
If you read further in that verse you will see how a born again spirit acts...
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 09:19:25 PM »

Born of water is a physical birth. Everyone must be born physically.  Being born of the spirit can not occur while in the physical realm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHv4s_hYs4c
(Bible Interpretation 101: Zwingli's Razor)
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2013, 01:33:36 AM »

In John, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born spiritually. This is because when Adam fell, he died spiritually and his relationship with God was broken.

He also died physically at the end of his life  Wink Nice way to gloss over the physical realm in the weird Protestant dualism between the spiritual and the physical.

Quote
Jesus identifies the Adamic race with the words, you must be born of water". People mistakenly think that he was referring to baptism

I guess the Apostles themselves were mistaken too when they understood Christ's words to refer to baptism and baptized several people throughout Acts. And when St. Paul said that "...we were buried with Him through baptism into death,"-(Rom. 6:4) and thus will be "...in the likeness of His resurrection," (Rom. 6:5). Thus, essentially "born-again."

Quote
...but no-one is saved through baptism...

I guess St. Peter was mistaken too when he said "...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism..."-(1 Pet. 3:20-21).

Quote
...in fact there is absolutely nothing you can do to EARN salvation. As I said, scripture makes it quite clear that salvation can only be received as a free gift.

The problem is that you view this in a legalistic, western manner rooted in the Augustinianism of Roman Catholicism which your kind tried so desperately to escape, but couldn't help but succumb to the Augustinian system of theology that you inherited from your Papist fathers. The Orthodox view Baptism more as an act of accepting our doctor's prescribed treatment in order to be healed, opposed to be acquitted, like in western Christianity.

Quote
The other thing that this passage tells us is that God will not do some 'repair job' on our old Adamic natures. When we are born again, we are given a completely new nature...

No we aren't. Rather, it is freed from the bonds of sin and death--as St. Paul said. "...knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died [through baptism, see previous passages] has been freed from sin." (Rom. 6:6-7). Plus, he also says "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Rom. 8:11). The acquisition of the Holy Spirit following Baptism does not give you a "new nature," rather, it "gives life" to your old one--which has been freed from the bonds of sin and death.
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2013, 01:51:25 AM »

Quote
...but no-one is saved through baptism...

I guess St. Peter was mistaken too when he said "...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism..."-(1 Pet. 3:20-21).
You might enjoy the Lutheran Satire video, "Paul's Baptism Oopsie," it's pretty cute.

"If it's true that Baptism doesn't work forgiveness of sins, rescue from death and the devil, or give eternal life to all who believe, then why do the apostles say the exact opposite of that every time they talk about baptism? Watch this super true story to find out." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwxHzo0QVYY

Here is another amusing Lutheran Satire video, "Messing with Dispensationalists," on the Rapture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5MDqUAfPcI

« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 02:08:19 AM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2013, 03:56:44 AM »

How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation, when and where is it offered to me?

Dear Ashman,

In John, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born spiritually. This is because when Adam fell, he died spiritually and his relationship with God was broken. Jesus identifies the Adamic race with the words, you must be born of water". People mistakenly think that he was referring to baptism but no-one is saved through baptism, in fact there is absolutely nothing you can do to EARN salvation. As I said, scripture makes it quite clear that salvation can only be received as a free gift.

The other thing that this passage tells us is that God will not do some 'repair job' on our old Adamic natures. When we are born again, we are given a completely new nature which is responsive to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. This is why Paul describes those who are saved as 'new creations'. In fact, the Bible defines a Christian as someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

John 3 v 3-7:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Born of water is a physical birth. Everyone must be born physically.

this is correct, Jesus was not speaking of baptism.
 
Quote
Being born of the spirit can not occur while in the physical realm.
God created Man as a unity. The above is a statement of Gnosticism. Jesus never tells Nicodemus that he must achieve any 'enlightened' spiritual state, or any such thing and nowhere in scripture will you find such a suggestion.

Quote
So one must be born in the physical world and them born into the spiritual world before you can enter the Kingdom.

or to be precise, a man enters the Kingdom UPON spiritual re-birth.

 
Quote
Yeshua said His kingdom was not of this world.

that's right, the redeemed do not belong here, their home is elsewhere but the power of the kingdom is seen on earth.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Matthew 12:27-29



Quote
Flesh begets flesh...spirit begets spirit!

this is true, a man must be born again of the Holy Spirit.
Quote
All "born again" Christians are wrong.

but they ARE "born again", which Jesus says is essential.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:2-4

Quote
If you read further in that verse you will see how a born again spirit acts...

8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is true because we are to live our lives led by the Spirit and this is the nature of the Spirit.
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2013, 05:36:00 AM »

In John, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born spiritually. This is because when Adam fell, he died spiritually and his relationship with God was broken.

He also died physically at the end of his life  Wink Nice way to gloss over the physical realm in the weird Protestant dualism between the spiritual and the physical.

of course he died physically, in fact he began to die physically immediately. I'm not sure where you see the dualism.......in fact it's already been suggested that one has to achieve some sort of enlightened spiritual state BEFORE one can be saved. Now THAT is dualism!

Quote
Quote
Jesus identifies the Adamic race with the words, you must be born of water". People mistakenly think that he was referring to baptism

I guess the Apostles themselves were mistaken too when they understood Christ's words to refer to baptism and baptized several people throughout Acts.
Sorry but this is a reductionist argument. Nowhere have I suggested that baptism is unscriptural. It is a public declaration and an act of obedience to Christ.

 
Quote
And when St. Paul said that "...we were buried with Him through baptism into death,"-(Rom. 6:4) and thus will be "...in the likeness of His resurrection," (Rom. 6:5). Thus, essentially "born-again."

Paul is elucidating the symbolic nature of baptism. As a witness to unbelievers it makes them question what is happening here.

Quote
Quote
...but no-one is saved through baptism...

I guess St. Peter was mistaken too when he said "...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism..."-(1 Pet. 3:20-21).

no, Peter was correct in drawing a valid parallel. But God clearly shows us that baptism without submission of one's life to Christ is meaningless and never salvific alone. For example, Cornelius was saved, baptised in the Holy Spirit AND spoke in tongues ALL before he was baptised in water. Never, in scripture will you find the Lord baptising in the Holy Spirit someone who is unsaved.

Quote
Quote
...in fact there is absolutely nothing you can do to EARN salvation. As I said, scripture makes it quite clear that salvation can only be received as a free gift.

The problem is that you view this in a legalistic, western manner rooted in the Augustinianism of Roman Catholicism which your kind tried so desperately to escape,

why you regard it as legalistic when Paul tells you that the redeemed are no longer under law but under grace, I can't imagine. Having said that, scripture refers to redemption as a "New Covenant". Are you suggesting that God considers 'law' in the universe to be redundant? Men decide whether to live under his justice or his mercy.

Quote
but couldn't help but succumb to the Augustinian system of theology that you inherited from your Papist fathers.

you sort of 'put this out there' surrounded by a Delphic cloud. I never had a Papist father and probably disagree with Augustine on more issues than one could throw a proverbial stick at. Luther still held to paedobaptism. God had his own ways of preserving the truth.
 
Quote
The Orthodox view Baptism more as an act of accepting our doctor's prescribed treatment in order to be healed, opposed to be acquitted, like in western Christianity.

but Paul says I'm no longer under condemnation, ie acquitted - I'll take that!

Quote
Quote
The other thing that this passage tells us is that God will not do some 'repair job' on our old Adamic natures. When we are born again, we are given a completely new nature...

No we aren't.

ah! so you don't have it

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
2 Corinthians 5:16-18 (in Context)


you don't have a new body, so unless you have a new nature, there is nothing about you which is 'born again' and Jesus says it's essential.

Quote
Rather, it is freed from the bonds of sin and death--as St. Paul said. "...knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died [through baptism, see previous passages] has been freed from sin." (Rom. 6:6-7).

This is correct, but Paul also says:

21 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God
  • in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.[/color]

    so he still finds himself sinning. We continue to sin because although the old nature is nailed to the cross, it won't just lie down and die. The difference is, as the passage you quoted says, he is no longer SUBJECT to it, ie he can turn to the Lord who will ultimately give him the victory over it. This is part of the process of sanctification. It works! Try it!


    Quote
    Plus, he also says "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Rom. 8:11). The acquisition of the Holy Spirit following Baptism does not give you a "new nature," rather, it "gives life" to your old one--which has been freed from the bonds of sin and death.

    but the verse you've quoted doesn't tell you this, it tells you that my mortal body is to be controlled, not by my old nature, as Paul was saying, but by the Spirit of Christ within me which is the promise,  the 'downpayment' on that which is to come, an immortal body.

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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2013, 06:36:56 AM »

John 3 v 3-7:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Quote
Flesh begets flesh...spirit begets spirit!

this is true, a man must be born again of the Holy Spirit.
Quote
All "born again" Christians are wrong.

but they ARE "born again", which Jesus says is essential.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:2-4

Quote
If you read further in that verse you will see how a born again spirit acts...

8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is true because we are to live our lives led by the Spirit and this is the nature of the Spirit.
[/quote]

So, in your opinion, IN THIS PHYSICAL REALM, a person that says they are "born again", can act like the wind, like a ghost? The physical flesh does not beget spirit.  

Nicodemus then said:
"How can this be?"

Yeshua then said:
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?  Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you do not accept our testimony.  I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

So plainly, Yeshua tells Nicodemus, a Pharisee who believes in the resurrection of the dead, how do you not know of what I am telling you? Yeshua has told of earthly things and they did not believe, so it is no surprise they did not believe now that He is speaking of heavenly things.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 06:58:33 AM by Yeshua HaDerekh » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2013, 07:15:41 AM »


Quote
Quote
This is true because we are to live our lives led by the Spirit and this is the nature of the Spirit.

So, in your opinion, IN THIS PHYSICAL REALM, a person that says they are "born again", can act like the wind, like a ghost?

if you wish to be literal about it, I refer you to the experience of Phillip!
Quote
The physical flesh does not beget spirit.

no it doesn't but I haven't suggested this. 

Quote
Nicodemus then said:
"How can this be?"

Yeshua then said:
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?  Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you do not accept our testimony.  I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

So plainly, Yeshua tells Nicodemus, a Pharisee who believes in the resurrection of the dead, how do you not know of what I am telling you? Yeshua has told of earthly things and they did not believe, so it is no surprise they did not believe now that He is speaking of heavenly things.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
this is correct and this is why the person who still has an Adamic nature is "of the earth".
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2013, 08:55:11 AM »


Quote
Quote
This is true because we are to live our lives led by the Spirit and this is the nature of the Spirit.

So, in your opinion, IN THIS PHYSICAL REALM, a person that says they are "born again", can act like the wind, like a ghost?

if you wish to be literal about it, I refer you to the experience of Phillip!
Quote
The physical flesh does not beget spirit.

no it doesn't but I haven't suggested this. 

No, but by saying you can be "born again" in this physical realm, you are implying it!

Quote
Nicodemus then said:
"How can this be?"

Yeshua then said:
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?  Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you do not accept our testimony.  I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

So plainly, Yeshua tells Nicodemus, a Pharisee who believes in the resurrection of the dead, how do you not know of what I am telling you? Yeshua has told of earthly things and they did not believe, so it is no surprise they did not believe now that He is speaking of heavenly things.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
this is correct and this is why the person who still has an Adamic nature is "of the earth".

We all have "adamic nature" because we are all born of water.  If your meaning is born with original sin, you are also wrong.  We suffer under the consequences of it...ie death.
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2013, 03:46:52 PM »

of course he died physically, in fact he began to die physically immediately. I'm not sure where you see the dualism.......

If Adam died physically and spiritually, the why do you only focus on the spiritual element, which you label as being "born again" and reject the physical element? If we have to be healed spiritually through Christ to cancel out Adam's spiritual disease, then, wouldn't it also follow that we need to be healed physically as well to cancel out Adam's physical disease as well? And Baptism seems to be the means to do this, since St. Paul makes it very clear that Baptism is our death and resurrection in Christ (Rom. 6:4-5).

Quote
...in fact it's already been suggested that one has to achieve some sort of enlightened spiritual state BEFORE one can be saved. Now THAT is dualism!

I think you are misunderstanding. Are  you referring to Orthodox theosis/deification? The process of reaching an "enlightened spiritual state" is NOT something that comes before you are "saved", rather, IT IS the process of being "saved". Salvation to us is not mere forgiveness or the acquittal of a crime, or a single one-time event. But is the lifelong process of being healed and restored to the image of Christ, as "...partakers of the Divine nature," (2 Pet. 1:4).

Quote
Sorry but this is a reductionist argument. Nowhere have I suggested that baptism is unscriptural. It is a public declaration and an act of obedience to Christ.

No it isn't. It is the act of participating in the death and resurrection of Christ, thus, a part of our salvation. See chapter 6 of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans. Reading Jesus' words about being born of water and spirit alongside St. Paul's words about Baptism in Romans seems to make a lot more sense and fit in together than this weirdo concept of being "spiritually born again" does.

 
Quote
Paul is elucidating the symbolic nature of baptism. As a witness to unbelievers it makes them question what is happening here.

Prove that it is symbolic in nature and not true. St. Paul says nothing to suggest that he is being symbolic, and nothing in the text at all suggests that he is being symbolic at that moment.

Quote
no, Peter was correct in drawing a valid parallel.

Once again, prove that St. Peter was merely drawing a symbolic parallel and didn't really mean that baptism is a step in salvation. For relying solely on the scriptures, you Protestants seem to reject their face-value meaning very much whenever it disagrees with your theological presuppositions.

Quote
But God clearly shows us that baptism without submission of one's life to Christ is meaningless and never salvific alone.

So? Baptism is still a step and part of our salvation and shouldn't be rejected, nor should it be undermined with this "symbolic" mumbo jumbo to downplay its importance.

Quote
For example, Cornelius was saved

Salvation isn't a one-time event.

Quote
...baptised in the Holy Spirit AND spoke in tongues ALL before he was baptised in water

So? Using a special instance to go against the norm doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If God wants to work specially for someone like Cornelius given their circumstances at the time, then that is up to Him. But in normal circumstances and for us, the Scriptures make it very clear that Baptism is one of the utensils that God has chosen to work His salvific grace through. We shouldn't reject it, hoping that God will make a special exception to us, just because he made special exceptions for others in the past.
 
Quote
Never, in scripture will you find the Lord baptising in the Holy Spirit someone who is unsaved.

What are you talking about?


Quote
why you regard it as legalistic when Paul tells you that the redeemed are no longer under law but under grace, I can't imagine. Having said that, scripture refers to redemption as a "New Covenant". Are you suggesting that God considers 'law' in the universe to be redundant? Men decide whether to live under his justice or his mercy.

Because you still view salvation in the judicial sense of God being a judge, being "saved" as the one-time event of being acquitted from a crime, and Hell as being a sentence that God gives to people as punishment. In western Christianity, God is a judge. In Eastern Orthodoxy, however, God is a doctor. We accept that from a legalistic standard, there is nothing we can do to earn God's forgiveness. However, salvation to us is MORE than just forgiveness like in the west, but is the process of being healed and restored to the image of God. Baptism is one of the steps God has prescribed to us for treatment.

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but Paul says I'm no longer under condemnation, ie acquitted - I'll take that!

St. Peter also says to be "partakers of the Divine nature,"  Wink

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This is correct, but Paul also says:

21 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God
  • in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.[/color]

    so he still finds himself sinning. We continue to sin because although the old nature is nailed to the cross, it won't just lie down and die. The difference is, as the passage you quoted says, he is no longer SUBJECT to it, ie he can turn to the Lord who will ultimately give him the victory over it. This is part of the process of sanctification. It works! Try it!
I'm not sure what point you are making. The Scripture you quoted merely refers to the struggle and temptation to sin that we face generally our entire lifetime. And I would indeed agree that you can turn to God for help--in fact, that is the entire process of deification for us. HOWEVER, I CANNOT agree with you that we are given a "new nature." Mostly because there is nothing in the Scriptures or the Church to suggest we are, and because the Scriptures describe a resurrection of the death in which our old nature and body will be redeemed and resurrected like Christ. None of this suggests a "new nature" but rather a fixed and restored nature.


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but the verse you've quoted doesn't tell you this, it tells you that my mortal body is to be controlled, not by my old nature, as Paul was saying,

There is no such thing as an "old nature", rather, our human nature was oppressed and diseased by sin and death. But that was done away with at Baptism. Now salvation consists in conforming our lives to Christ as partakers of the "Divine nature" so that our restored human natures can be elevated and fixed in the image of God.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 03:48:20 PM »

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I guess it is a comforting teaching.

I honestly can't see how that teaching could be considered comforting. I believed in it for a (very) short period of time and I was getting all paranoid and anxious. It didn't help that National Geographic Channel, at the same time, was showing an easter-themed documentary about it.

Ah, those who believe in the Once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) teaching believe that they are guaranteed salvation by the Blood of Christ, and they consider the Rapture to Heaven to be their guaranteed reward. The only worrying I see in this cult is the sheer terror that their friends and relatives who do not believe in the OSAS-Rapture theory will be damned forever.

There are some extreme OSAS protestant cults who believe that repentance and prayers are a work. That baffles me. Why do they read the Holy Scripture and attend church? Are not those works too? I was talking with one of those extreme OSAS Master's College students who kept condemning Orthodox Christianity as a works-based religion, yet his beliefs were obviously works-based although he denied it.
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 03:51:10 PM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

There were rumors on the OBOB site of christianforums.com that the Jesuits invented this entire "Rapture-is-coming doomsday type Christianity" as a spoof to see if Protestants would buy it.

Anyway, my mother and the rest of my family left the Roman Catholic Church and now believe in the Rapture. They have all read the Left Behind series too. I guess it is a comforting teaching. They do not want to experience the Tribulation, but want to witness it in the clouds.

Yet, Revelation does not teach the Rapture, but encourages us to persevere in the faith.

What I find dangerous and spiritually damaging about the Rapture Theory thingy is how obsessed with numerology, the occult and conspiracy that it causes so many of its adherents to delve into, making them very prone to demonic deception and borderline witch craft.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 03:53:51 PM »

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I guess it is a comforting teaching.

I honestly can't see how that teaching could be considered comforting. I believed in it for a (very) short period of time and I was getting all paranoid and anxious. It didn't help that National Geographic Channel, at the same time, was showing an easter-themed documentary about it.

Ah, those who believe in the Once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) teaching believe that they are guaranteed salvation by the Blood of Christ, and they consider the Rapture to Heaven to be their guaranteed reward. The only worrying I see in this cult is the sheer terror that their friends and relatives who do not believe in the OSAS-Rapture theory will be damned forever.

There are some extreme OSAS protestant cults who believe that repentance and prayers are a work. That baffles me. Why do they read the Holy Scripture and attend church? Are not those works too? I was talking with one of those extreme OSAS Master's College students who kept condemning Orthodox Christianity as a works-based religion, yet his beliefs were obviously works-based although he denied it.

I've always put it this way to the "OSAS" crowd; if "works" are to entirely be rejected, then why "have faith" in Christ at all? Isn't the act of "having faith" a "work" because it requires a continual logical assertion and belief in Christ? And why pray at all? In fact, why not just become atheists or do whatever we want, since, it doesn't matter because our salvation has nothing to do with our actions and works?
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 03:57:12 PM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

There were rumors on the OBOB site of christianforums.com that the Jesuits invented this entire "Rapture-is-coming doomsday type Christianity" as a spoof to see if Protestants would buy it.

Anyway, my mother and the rest of my family left the Roman Catholic Church and now believe in the Rapture. They have all read the Left Behind series too. I guess it is a comforting teaching. They do not want to experience the Tribulation, but want to witness it in the clouds.

Yet, Revelation does not teach the Rapture, but encourages us to persevere in the faith.

What I find dangerous and spiritually damaging about the Rapture Theory thingy is how obsessed with numerology, the occult and conspiracy that it causes so many of its adherents to delve into, making them very prone to demonic deception and borderline witch craft.

For those who produce books and movies, the Rapture is a great money-making proposition.
And when one looks at Scientology, did not Ron Hubbard invent this religion to make lots of money?
JW and the Mormons also make a lot of money selling their books and pamphlets and collecting mandatory tithing.
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 04:20:36 PM »

***BUMP***



I attended a Dispensational Bible college, so I'm pretty familiar with the subject.

Dear Rachel,

Welcome to the forum! A couple of questions for you:

thank you Gebre!

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1. Do you believe in the Nicene Creed?

there is one baptism, which is not for the remission of sins.

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2. What do you rely upon as the authoritative foundation for spiritual understanding and truth?

the Holy Spirit.


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Thank you for answering my questions. But I'm not sure I understand your response to my first question. Do you accept the Nicene Creed in its fullness or do you only accept parts of it (or none of it?)

I only take issue with the unbiblical idea of salvific baptism.

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As for your answer to the second question, therein is the fundamental point of departure between your personal interpretation of Christianity and the Orthodox Christian Faith.

I would say that, if we are to speak of 'personal interpretation' we should ensure that the issue is actually open to interpretation. Also, since I am indwelt of the Spirit, my 'interpretation' is not imply personal. For the same reason, the Bereans were confident to put their faith in scripture.

 
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If you accept the inerrancy of the Bible, then you must accept that the Bible nowhere states that scripture alone or the Holy Spirit alone (or a combination of the two) is the foundation of truth.

yes it does Gebre. Jesus assures me that his Spirit will lead me into all truth. This is not hypothetical - it may be experienced. What do you mean by, "the foundation of truth"? Jesus says HE is the infinite absolute, the personification of truth. He indwells me. What could be more foundational?

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In fact, I Timothy 3:15 clearly states that "the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth."

Scripture defines a Christian as someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Church is comprised of such people. It is the Holy Spirit within the obedient church which makes it the pillar and foundation of truth. An institution is not the pillar and foundation of truth merely because we attach a label bearing the word 'church' to it. Scripture itself teaches us this.

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Scripture also clearly states that "no scripture is a matter of individual interpretation." [II Peter 1:20]

this is true; were I alone in holding the view I do, then I would clearly have a problem. However truth is not guaranteed by statistics. The test is always the rationality of a doctrine when tested against scripture. Thus for example, if someone proclaims the rapture as occurring at the second advent, the view makes nonsense of other scriptures

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So, with respect (and I don't mean to sound rude or condescending), unless you accept the proper foundational authority of Christian belief, then there is no point in discussing doctrine or theology with you.

Which 'Church' shall we use as 'foundational' for the purposes of our discussion? If your thesis is correct and the Orthodox Church is the receptacle of all truth, you will have no difficulty in undermining my position on grounds of rationality alone. This will be fine by me but to establish that the Orthodox Church is part of the Church Universal, we will need to establish that its basis of salvation accords with the writings of the Apostles.

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It will inevitably turn into a proof texting contest, and that could go on ad infinitum with nothing resolved. We can never agree if we are starting from two fundamentally different foundations.


but we both start from the foundation that the Word of God is inerrant because that is what it claims to be. You don't believe that God  lies and neither do I, so we both expect exegesis to be rational,  coherent and consistent.

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So, you are faced with the same crucial choice that all of us who are converts from Protestantism were once faced with: Will you continue to lean upon your own fallible interpretations of holy scripture,

but this is a wilful misrepresentation of my position. You speak as though you consider the leading of the Spirit to be theoretical - is that what you think?

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or will you trust the Church through which the scriptures came to us?

but the scriptures have come to me through the Apostles, to whose writings I adhere.

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Will you cling to your own finite understanding of the Bible while claiming that the Holy Spirit is guiding you, or will you truly trust in the infinite wisdom of the Holy Spirit who works in and through the Church that Our Lord instituted for our spiritual guidance, strength, and protection?

the latter. I will trust the infinite wisdom of the Holy Spirit who indwells me.

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I hope that you will consider this choice carefully, soberly, and prayerfully.

I have, I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed to him.

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The peace of Our Lord be with you.
and with you


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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 04:57:19 PM »

Quote
I guess it is a comforting teaching.

I honestly can't see how that teaching could be considered comforting. I believed in it for a (very) short period of time and I was getting all paranoid and anxious. It didn't help that National Geographic Channel, at the same time, was showing an easter-themed documentary about it.

Ah, those who believe in the Once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) teaching believe that they are guaranteed salvation by the Blood of Christ,

but the issue IS, whether this is what the Bible teaches or not. What your statement plainly tells me is that you have no certainty of your own salvation but Paul says that the redeemed have ALREADY passed from death to life and have the seal of the Spirit upon them. Perhaps you should ask why you have no such assurance.

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and they consider the Rapture to Heaven to be their guaranteed reward.

I am not aware that anyone views it like this, rather just as part of God's plan

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The only worrying I see in this cult is the sheer terror that their friends and relatives who do not believe in the OSAS-Rapture theory will be damned forever.

but no doubt you have friends who are not Orthodox - which presumably you hope is the route to salvation, what is the difference? People are responsible for their own eternal destiny . I trust you are sure of yours.

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There are some extreme OSAS protestant cults who believe that repentance and prayers are a work. That baffles me. Why do they read the Holy Scripture and attend church? Are not those works too? I was talking with one of those extreme OSAS Master's College students who kept condemning Orthodox Christianity as a works-based religion, yet his beliefs were obviously works-based although he denied it.

we all have work to do. The clear teaching of the Apostles is that salvation is not obtained by works. Salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned.

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I've always put it this way to the "OSAS" crowd; if "works" are to entirely be rejected, then why "have faith" in Christ at all? Isn't the act of "having faith" a "work" because it requires a continual logical assertion and belief in Christ?

Everyone has faith. The atheist has faith. Belief in Christ is no more a work than belief in anything else. Furthermore,  Satan himself believes in Christ. Belief in Christ does not necessitate my involvement in practices aimed at salvation because I've already received it. My faith is not aimed at gaining something I already have.
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And why pray at all?

we pray in order to bring the power of the Kingdom to bear on earth, we pray in confession, we pray in supplication, we pray in intercession, we pray in personal worship, we pray in conversation with Jesus .
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In fact, why not just become atheists or do whatever we want, since, it doesn't matter because our salvation has nothing to do with our actions and works?
we don't "do what we want" because we have taken Jesus as Lord of our lives and we are constrained by love and gratitude to please him. Also, the Holy Spirit has taken upon himself the responsibility for our sanctification and thus we are subject to his discipline. Jesus does not discipline those who don't belong to him.
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2013, 05:10:46 PM »

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but the issue IS, whether this is what the Bible teaches or not. What your statement plainly tells me is that you have no certainty of your own salvation but Paul says that the redeemed have ALREADY passed from death to life and have the seal of the Spirit upon them. Perhaps you should ask why you have no such assurance.

We are saved, that is true, but we can still fall. Ananias and Sapphira were both christians. We must always keep struggling.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:11:01 PM by Ansgar » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2013, 05:24:29 PM »

but the issue IS, whether this is what the Bible teaches or not. What your statement plainly tells me is that you have no certainty of your own salvation but Paul says that the redeemed have ALREADY passed from death to life and have the seal of the Spirit upon them. Perhaps you should ask why you have no such assurance.

What is it with this Protestant fetish for "certainty" of our "salvation"? It's important to note--as I have over and over again--that our view of Salvation is different than the Protestant view. Salvation isn't just a one-time thing to us. We would answer that we have been saved in the sense that at Baptism we participated in the death and resurrection of Christ, that we are being saved in the sense that God is healing us right now through our participation in the life of the Church, and that we hope to be saved in the sense that when we stand before God someday, it will be a heavenly experience.

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I am not aware that anyone views it like this, rather just as part of God's plan

I've seen it Maria's way. And it often leads to pride and arrogance. It's like "Well, I will be raptured because I'm righteous and you won't!" etc.

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we all have work to do. The clear teaching of the Apostles is that salvation is not obtained by works. Salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned.

The problem is that Protestants like yourself, viewing everything in an Augustinian lense, always view things in the judicial sense of "guilt" and "forgiveness". I've said time and time again that grace/a gift and works are not mutually exclusive. Works are a part of our salvation because it is through works that we receive the treatment for our souls. It has nothing to do with "earning" in a judicial sense. Plus, St. James tells us that faith without works is dead.

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Belief in Christ does not necessitate my involvement in practices aimed at salvation because I've already received it.

You received it through works--in your own language, through "accepting Jesus Christ." That's a work. There is no such thing as no-works-salvation, not in an Augustinian lense, and certainly not in an Orthodox lense.

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My faith is not aimed at gaining something I already have.

Then it's pointless.


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we pray in order to bring the power of the Kingdom to bear on earth, we pray in confession, we pray in supplication, we pray in intercession, we pray in personal worship, we pray in conversation with Jesus.

But it's a work, and remember, people aren't "saved" by works. Tell me, what would happen if someone didn't pray? WOuld they be "saved"?

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we don't "do what we want" because we have taken Jesus as Lord of our lives and we are constrained by love and gratitude to please him. Also, the Holy Spirit has taken upon himself the responsibility for our sanctification and thus we are subject to his discipline.

So, in a sense, you are being saved?  Wink

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Jesus does not discipline those who don't belong to him.

I think He disciplines whoever He wants when He sees fit, but, that's a different story.
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 05:42:41 PM »

Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

there is nothing here which tells you it refers to the Second Advent.

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"Behold, the Lord comes with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

this refers to the Second Advent but not to the Rapture.

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"Amen, Amen, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

this refers to the Great White Throne Judgement, which is a judgement of works. It does not refer to the Rapture.

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I don't have a problem with the idea that there will be an order to the Resurrection., the righteous first, and then the wicked. But this is subsequent and not separated by a "tribulation".

would you like to show this from scripture? Jesus says there will be a time of tribulation such as the world has not seen. Do you believe him?

 
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The problem is with the idea that those who are raised to life will be raised before the "tribulation", and the idea that the resurrected go to live in a place called heaven, away from earth. This is false.

ok, but again, this is just an assertion. Can you SHOW it is false. Do you agree that there is a place called Heaven? Jesus said it. Do you agree that the resurrected will live there? Jesus said it. So how can it be false? As to whether the rapture occurs before the tribulation. Scripture is clear that the Tribulation takes place under the power of the Antichrist and the Antichrist cannot come to power until the Church is removed.

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There is nothing in the Scriptures that claims the righteous will be resurrected before the "tribulation", and will live in a far off place called heaven with Christ for a while before coming back to earth. Christ came to remake the world, not to escape it.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [a]coming;


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When the righteous dead arise and go to meet Christ in the clouds, it is to be part of his victory procession to earth, not to return to the clouds with him to live in the clouds.

well, I'm certainly not expecting to live in a cloud! The Second Advent is described in Revelation 19. It occurs AFTER the Marriage Supper of The Lamb ie, The Bride of Christ is ALREADY in Heaven.

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The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine was invented in America. It is less than 300 years old. It is a doctrine invented by men late in the game. You can read it back into the Scriptures, but it's a  sick, escapist and unchristian understanding that was unknown to the early Christians.
setting this aside for a moment, the issue is that either scripture teaches it or it doesn't. Scripture teaches that the redeemed will meet Christ in the air. That is explicit. It also teaches, as I've just shown, that the Holy Spirit indwelling the redeemed must be removed before the Antichrist can take control.
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 05:46:05 PM »

Quote
but the issue IS, whether this is what the Bible teaches or not. What your statement plainly tells me is that you have no certainty of your own salvation but Paul says that the redeemed have ALREADY passed from death to life and have the seal of the Spirit upon them. Perhaps you should ask why you have no such assurance.

We are saved, that is true, but we can still fall. Ananias and Sapphira were both christians. We must always keep struggling.

we are saved but we sin - true. Nothing tells you that Ananias and Sapphira were lost.
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 05:56:51 PM »

Quote
but the issue IS, whether this is what the Bible teaches or not. What your statement plainly tells me is that you have no certainty of your own salvation but Paul says that the redeemed have ALREADY passed from death to life and have the seal of the Spirit upon them. Perhaps you should ask why you have no such assurance.

We are saved, that is true, but we can still fall. Ananias and Sapphira were both christians. We must always keep struggling.

we are saved but we sin - true. Nothing tells you that Ananias and Sapphira were lost.

True, but it should surely give us an indication. Christ said that many shall call him Lord and still be lost. There is always the chance that some will end up going against the Faith, Paul even mentions it. Salvation requires faith, true faith.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:57:49 PM by Ansgar » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 03:38:33 PM »

How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation, when and where is it offered to me?

Dear Ashman,

In John, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born spiritually. This is because when Adam fell, he died spiritually and his relationship with God was broken. Jesus identifies the Adamic race with the words, you must be born of water". People mistakenly think that he was referring to baptism but no-one is saved through baptism, in fact there is absolutely nothing you can do to EARN salvation. As I said, scripture makes it quite clear that salvation can only be received as a free gift.

The other thing that this passage tells us is that God will not do some 'repair job' on our old Adamic natures. When we are born again, we are given a completely new nature which is responsive to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. This is why Paul describes those who are saved as 'new creations'. In fact, the Bible defines a Christian as someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

John 3 v 3-7:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3 v 14-16:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Isaiah tells us that Jesus took upon himself God's righteous anger with my sin when he died on the cross and that when I understood that I am a sinner, repented of my sin and accepted Jesus as Lord of my life, from that moment God no longer sees my sin but only the perfect righteousness of Jesus. From that moment, my sin was covered by the blood of Jesus which was shed for me and I started on the path of a new life and the awareness of having his Holy Spirit slowly developed within me.

Revelation 3 V 20:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


It really is as simple as this - for  many it is too simple but this is what the Bible plainly teaches -it is the beginning of a relationship with Jesus, not a matter of religious rites. As Paul said, the Law, the commandments were intended to make us aware of sin but once we are saved we are to live by grace, that means we are to simply live our lives under the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Come to his cross, repent, accept Jesus as Lord and receive the free gift of new life!



Thank you for your response, if I may ask 2 more questions for my edification.

How can I be sure that the Holy Spirit indwells me?

Are you sure, I mean like 100% sure, that the Holy Spirit is in you?

Again thank you!
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PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2013, 06:54:32 PM »

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Happy Lutheran
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2013, 07:53:32 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHv4s_hYs4c
(Bible Interpretation 101: Zwingli's Razor)

Lutheran Satire is Great. Most of his videos are excellent.

The early church may have had some disagreements and separations in the past but have never doubted or disagreed on what Baptism is and what it does.
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1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
Doubting Thomas
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 04:46:04 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHv4s_hYs4c
(Bible Interpretation 101: Zwingli's Razor)

Lutheran Satire is Great. Most of his videos are excellent.

The early church may have had some disagreements and separations in the past but have never doubted or disagreed on what Baptism is and what it does.

TRUE.  This fact is one of the main reasons I am no longer Southern Baptist.
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"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
NicholasMyra
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 05:01:17 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHv4s_hYs4c
(Bible Interpretation 101: Zwingli's Razor)

Lutheran Satire is Great. Most of his videos are excellent.

Didn't like the one where the ELCA marries three pygmy elephants to a DVD of Cop and a Half?
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Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2013, 04:26:36 PM »

How do I go about accepting the gift of salvation, when and where is it offered to me?

Salvation is offered to you now; it is offered to you wherever you are: there are no times or places where the gift must be received. Behold, now is the day of salvation.

It is received when you are sorry for your sins and ask for God's forgiveness, and believe that Christ's death and resurrection have purchased this for you.

It is also right to show your new commitment publicly in baptism
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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
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