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« on: May 08, 2013, 09:49:23 AM »

I read that this was actually published by the HOCNA (Holy Orthodox Church in North America) which isnt actually a part of the true Church. Is this true? Is the HTM monastery not an actual Orthodox monastery? Does this affect the contents of the prayer book or is it legit?

Im in the market for a new prayer book. I have the little red one and I like it, but I just want to try something new. Just wanted to double check on this issue before I buy it. Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 10:01:36 AM »

HTM is Old Calendarist.
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 10:04:05 AM »

You can be Old Calendarist and still be in communion with the EP though. Why are these guys not in communion with the Church?
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 10:05:37 AM »

You can be Old Calendarist and still be in communion with the EP though.

Old Calendarist and 'using the Julian Calendar' are two different things.

Why are these guys not in communion with the Church?

They think everyone should use the Julian Calendar and they really don't like Ecumenism.
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2013, 10:13:27 AM »

You can be Old Calendarist and still be in communion with the EP though.

Old Calendarist and 'using the Julian Calendar' are two different things.

Why are these guys not in communion with the Church?

They think everyone should use the Julian Calendar and they really don't like Ecumenism.

Gotcha. A quick google search of "Old Caledarist" helped me make sense of that. I was even more confused for a second.

But anyways, it seems many people still use this prayer book. Its for sale in our parish bookstore, so I was thinking about picking it up.  Wasnt sure if its a good idea to support them though as I dont know much about the situation. 
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2013, 10:14:16 AM »

You can be Old Calendarist and still be in communion with the EP though. Why are these guys not in communion with the Church?
Old Calendarist generally refers to those who separated from the churches that adopted the Revised Julian Calendar (i.e. New Calendar) in order to continue following the Julian Calendar. It is more a matter of practice than doctrine - though I recognize that the two are not always separable. It is not clear to me as to whether they would insist that the Julian Calendar must be used forever, or whether the problem is with the way in which the New Calendar was introduced and adopted by some Orthodox.
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2013, 10:21:04 AM »

I read that this was actually published by the HOCNA (Holy Orthodox Church in North America) which isnt actually a part of the true Church. Is this true? Is the HTM monastery not an actual Orthodox monastery? Does this affect the contents of the prayer book or is it legit?

I don't believe their status (I think it may be more muddled now than before) affects the contents of the prayer book.  Other than my slight irritation with some of the antiquated language used, it's a solid volume, both in terms of design and contents.  

Edited to add: You should note that the book is more in the "Greek" tradition than the "Russian".  It may or may not matter for you, but it does for some.  
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2013, 10:46:33 AM »

I read that this was actually published by the HOCNA (Holy Orthodox Church in North America) which isnt actually a part of the true Church. Is this true? Is the HTM monastery not an actual Orthodox monastery? Does this affect the contents of the prayer book or is it legit?

I don't believe their status (I think it may be more muddled now than before) affects the contents of the prayer book.  Other than my slight irritation with some of the antiquated language used, it's a solid volume, both in terms of design and contents.  

Edited to add: You should note that the book is more in the "Greek" tradition than the "Russian".  It may or may not matter for you, but it does for some.  

Thanks!

I attend an OCA parish, so I would sort of prefer the Jordanville, but for some reason we dont have it in our bookstore right now. I havent seen it in a while either. I know I could order it elsewhere, but sometimes I can be a little impatient and would rather just go buy it right away if possible. Ha!

Only issue I may have with the Jordanville is that the morning prayers seem a little long. Not that its wrong to pray for a long time, but I would probably find myself skipping around a good bit, and id hate to make a habit out of that.
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 10:53:53 AM »

A bit OT, but Timon, are you named after the great Timon of Athens?
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2013, 10:55:56 AM »

it's the only english prayerbook i have and to me it doth sound supremely clunky
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2013, 11:00:08 AM »

it's the only english prayerbook i have and to me it doth sound supremely clunky

 laugh laugh laugh So true!!
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2013, 12:24:48 PM »

A bit OT, but Timon, are you named after the great Timon of Athens?

no. this one.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Apostle_Timon

when i was looking at saint names, there wasnt one with my first name. so i chose Timon bc he is commemorated on my birthday.

this wont be the name i take when I am Chrismated, but i chose it when i signed up here a couple years ago.
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2013, 03:42:28 PM »

HTM is Old Calendarist.
They were founded independently (the comemorated the JP at the time) in the early 1960s, and by mid-decade became associated with ROCOR. They  split with ROCOR after a scandal in the mid-1980s, and supposedly have ties with Esphigmenou on Mount Athos (though that is a claim not exclusive to them amongst Old Calendarists).

The prayerbook contains the major services of the church day and some akathists. It's fine for use, but as others have noted it's hard to spit out the language, which is faux-antiquated.
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 04:43:10 PM »

You can be Old Calendarist and still be in communion with the EP though.

Old Calendarist and 'using the Julian Calendar' are two different things.

Why are these guys not in communion with the Church?

They think everyone should use the Julian Calendar and they really don't like Ecumenism.

Gotcha. A quick google search of "Old Caledarist" helped me make sense of that. I was even more confused for a second.

But anyways, it seems many people still use this prayer book. Its for sale in our parish bookstore, so I was thinking about picking it up.  Wasnt sure if its a good idea to support them though as I dont know much about the situation. 

I can't link the goarch.org orthodox marketplace at the moment (it was working fine for a second and just went down), but they carry it, along with the Antiochian Village bookstore, and I think St Tikhon's Seminary bookstore carries it as well (they've updated their website since the last time I've been by- it looks pretty but is a pain in the neck to find anything). So, it is being sold by all the Big Three- one would hope that this means it passes theological muster.
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2013, 07:07:02 PM »

HTM is Old Calendarist.
They were founded independently (the comemorated the JP at the time) in the early 1960s, and by mid-decade became associated with ROCOR. They  split with ROCOR after a scandal in the mid-1980s, and supposedly have ties with Esphigmenou on Mount Athos (though that is a claim not exclusive to them amongst Old Calendarists).

The prayerbook contains the major services of the church day and some akathists. It's fine for use, but as others have noted it's hard to spit out the language, which is faux-antiquated.

In the mid-1980s, HOCNA did split from ROCOR when ROCOR tried to investigate allegations of sexual improprieties involving one former Elder Panteleimon. In 2012, this same elder recently resigned from the priesthood after he had admitted guilt in front of his brotherhood. At the same time, when HOCNA openly embraced the heresies of Awake Sleepers (Universalism) and Name Worshipping, about half of the brotherhood then split from HOCNA and joined HOTCA/GOC, which has ties with Esphignmenou on Mt. Athos. Recently HOCNA has gone into communion with the so-called GOC of AB Makarios of Greece. This Greek Synod also accepts the Name Worshipping Heresy. Therefore, HOCNA and AB Makarios' Synod in Greece have both become heretical and are no longer Orthodox Christians. With this in mind, it is spiritually dangerous to purchase any new prayerbooks from HOCNA.

Besides, with few to staff the HTM monastery businesses (icon, incense, and book press), it may be difficult to obtain their products.

RE: HTM prayer book

The main difficulty I have with all of HOCNA publications is the fact that their prayerbooks and psalters have continued to undergo minor changes in wording with each publication. Thus, my husband and I have different editions with different paginations so that when we pray together, I simply cannot tell him the page number, but I need to take his book, find the page for him, and then hand it back to him. If I read a prayer in my version of the HTM prayerbook, the change is often enough for him to become confused so that he repeats the prayer. Thus, HOCNA books are a terrible distraction.
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2013, 07:29:58 PM »

My brother and I were given HTM prayer books by our priest for our chrismation. The front page says 2005 but the next page says ©1987, so I am lead to believe that it is the edition (or copyrighted version) of 1987 just printed in 2005.

I really enjoy using this particular prayer book and I doth not findeth it as clunky as some others. Probably because I grew up using the KJV.
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2013, 08:40:13 PM »

My brother and I were given HTM prayer books by our priest for our chrismation. The front page says 2005 but the next page says ©1987, so I am lead to believe that it is the edition (or copyrighted version) of 1987 just printed in 2005.

I really enjoy using this particular prayer book and I doth not findeth it as clunky as some others. Probably because I grew up using the KJV.

I have two editions of the blue HTM A Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians.

One says © 1987 and is a 2000 printing with 366 pages. The 1987 preface uses roman numerals, starts on page ix through xv (7 pages), is set in a larger type, and has a paragraph on page xii (omitted in the 2009 edition) which states that a few services included in this book were originally found in other prayer books, but were originally translated by HTM.

The newer one says © 1987 and is a 2009 printing with 384 pages.
This newer edition is much thicker. However, the "1987" preface avoids the roman numerals, starts on page 9 through 14 (6 pages), and is set in smaller type with two additional paragraphs which discuss type settings and dedicate the publication to the memory of Monk Anathasius and Nun Rebekah Xenia.

It is not quite ethical to modify a dated preface after the fact.

It appears that the use of different type settings and the omission of roman numerals in the 2009 edition have led to the variation in the pagination. However, there are different wordings in the various troparia and prayers. This leads to frustration for chanters who must fit the new words to byzantine chant.


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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2013, 08:56:14 PM »

My brother and I were given HTM prayer books by our priest for our chrismation. The front page says 2005 but the next page says ©1987, so I am lead to believe that it is the edition (or copyrighted version) of 1987 just printed in 2005.

I really enjoy using this particular prayer book and I doth not findeth it as clunky as some others. Probably because I grew up using the KJV.

I have two editions of the blue HTM A Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians.

One says © 1987 and is a 2000 printing with 366 pages. The 1987 preface uses roman numerals, starts on page ix through xv (7 pages), is set in a larger type, and has a paragraph on page xii (omitted in the 2009 edition) which states that a few services included in this book were originally found in other prayer books, but were originally translated by HTM.

The newer one says © 1987 and is a 2009 printing with 384 pages.
This newer edition is much thicker. However, the "1987" preface avoids the roman numerals, starts on page 9 through 14 (6 pages), and is set in smaller type with two additional paragraphs which discuss type settings and dedicate the publication to the memory of Monk Anathasius and Nun Rebekah Xenia.

It is not quite ethical to modify a dated preface after the fact.

It appears that the use of different type settings and the omission of roman numerals in the 2009 edition have led to the variation in the pagination. However, there are different wordings in the various troparia and prayers. This leads to frustration for chanters who must fit the new words to byzantine chant.




HTM is usually pretty good about making their translations fit the meter of the original composition, if it is not an idiomelon. I would be surprised if most chanters find the change wording to be an issue, so long as the meter remains the same.
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2013, 09:00:46 PM »

Here is an example of the additional verbiage found in the 2009 edition:

Hymns of the Resurrection, p. 125, Plagal of First Tone (Dismissal Hymn)

2000 edition:
Quote
Let us, the faithful, praise and worship the Word, Who is co-beginningless with the Father and the Spirit, and Who was born of the Virgin for our salvation; for He was pleased to ascend the Cross in the flesh and to endure death, and to raise the dead by His glorious Resurrection.

Hymns of the Resurrection, p. 141, Plagal of First Tone (Dismissal Hymn)

2009 edition:
Quote
Let us worship the Word, O ye faithful, praising Him that with the Father and Spirit is co-beginningless God, Who was born of a pure Virgin that we all be saved; for He was pleased to mount the Cross in the flesh that He assumed, accepting thus to endure death. And by His glorious rising, He also willed to resurrect the dead.

The 2009 edition is a mouth full here. It is very difficult to put to byzantine chant.
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2013, 09:17:21 PM »

You can be Old Calendarist and still be in communion with the EP though.

Old Calendarist and 'using the Julian Calendar' are two different things.

Why are these guys not in communion with the Church?

They think everyone should use the Julian Calendar and they really don't like Ecumenism.

Gotcha. A quick google search of "Old Caledarist" helped me make sense of that. I was even more confused for a second.

But anyways, it seems many people still use this prayer book. Its for sale in our parish bookstore, so I was thinking about picking it up.  Wasnt sure if its a good idea to support them though as I dont know much about the situation. 

There's nothing wrong in the prayer book; it's a translation of the traditional Greek prayerbook. As for not wanting to support a monastery with whose jurisdiction one is not in communion, that's your decision. I myself do not have a problem with buying their books and icons. Their Psalter translation is good, and they've allowed it to be used in many other prayer books. As for whether they are part of the Church, I think one needs to consider the gray areas, or else throw history out the window.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2013, 09:19:36 PM »

it's the only english prayerbook i have and to me it doth sound supremely clunky

Oh, but it doth not be the clunkiest. Examine the syntax of Fr. Seraphim Nasser's "Divine Prayers and Services" if you have a chance, and pity those who must chant from it.
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2013, 09:24:30 PM »

I really enjoy using this particular prayer book and I doth not findeth it as clunky as some others. Probably because I grew up using the KJV.
I, too, grew up using the KJV and still use it about 25 percent of the time.

The difference is that the archaisms in the KJV are organic and generally flow, while in the HTM prayerbook they are interjected and often incorrect. That's a problem in many Orthodox translations and not just  HTM publications, though the blue prayerbook and psalter are particularly egregious.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2013, 09:28:30 PM »

Here is an example of the additional verbiage found in the 2009 edition:

Hymns of the Resurrection, p. 125, Plagal of First Tone (Dismissal Hymn)

2000 edition:
Quote
Let us, the faithful, praise and worship the Word, Who is co-beginningless with the Father and the Spirit, and Who was born of the Virgin for our salvation; for He was pleased to ascend the Cross in the flesh and to endure death, and to raise the dead by His glorious Resurrection.

Hymns of the Resurrection, p. 141, Plagal of First Tone (Dismissal Hymn)

2009 edition:
Quote
Let us worship the Word, O ye faithful, praising Him that with the Father and Spirit is co-beginningless God, Who was born of a pure Virgin that we all be saved; for He was pleased to mount the Cross in the flesh that He assumed, accepting thus to endure death. And by His glorious rising, He also willed to resurrect the dead.

The 2009 edition is a mouth full here. It is very difficult to put to byzantine chant.


The 2009 is absolutely ghastly.

My 2005 edition follows the 2000 text.
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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2013, 10:22:10 PM »

Thanks for all the info, everyone. I may go with the Jordanville anyways. I was just considering the HTM because its aways available in the bookstore.

Does anyone here use the Jordanville? Ive read older threads about it, but does anyone else have any experience with it?

I know its not really that big of a deal which prayerbook you use, but im just curious as to your thoughts on the matter.
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2013, 10:40:09 PM »

I really enjoy using this particular prayer book and I doth not findeth it as clunky as some others. Probably because I grew up using the KJV.
I, too, grew up using the KJV and still use it about 25 percent of the time.

The difference is that the archaisms in the KJV are organic and generally flow, while in the HTM prayerbook they are interjected and often incorrect. That's a problem in many Orthodox translations and not just  HTM publications, though the blue prayerbook and psalter are particularly egregious.

I agree that HTM is not consistent in their use of the Shakespearian English, especially in their psalter.
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2013, 11:19:41 PM »

it's the only english prayerbook i have and to me it doth sound supremely clunky

Oh, but it doth not be the clunkiest. Examine the syntax of Fr. Seraphim Nasser's "Divine Prayers and Services" if you have a chance, and pity those who must chant from it.

You've not come across Br Isaac Lambertsen's efforts published by SJKP?  Shocked
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2013, 11:21:16 PM »

Here is an example of the additional verbiage found in the 2009 edition:

Hymns of the Resurrection, p. 125, Plagal of First Tone (Dismissal Hymn)

2000 edition:
Quote
Let us, the faithful, praise and worship the Word, Who is co-beginningless with the Father and the Spirit, and Who was born of the Virgin for our salvation; for He was pleased to ascend the Cross in the flesh and to endure death, and to raise the dead by His glorious Resurrection.

Hymns of the Resurrection, p. 141, Plagal of First Tone (Dismissal Hymn)

2009 edition:
Quote
Let us worship the Word, O ye faithful, praising Him that with the Father and Spirit is co-beginningless God, Who was born of a pure Virgin that we all be saved; for He was pleased to mount the Cross in the flesh that He assumed, accepting thus to endure death. And by His glorious rising, He also willed to resurrect the dead.

The 2009 edition is a mouth full here. It is very difficult to put to byzantine chant.


The 2009 is absolutely ghastly.

My 2005 edition follows the 2000 text.

Dear God, what were they thinking when they rewrote this hymn?? Oyyy!!! Ghastly, all right!
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2013, 11:44:39 PM »

Only issue I may have with the Jordanville is that the morning prayers seem a little long. Not that its wrong to pray for a long time, but I would probably find myself skipping around a good bit, and id hate to make a habit out of that.

After the usual disclaimer about consulting with your spiritual father/confessor regarding rules of prayer and alterations thereto...

One of my professors once shared with me the insight that Orthodox liturgical books are more like anthologies and less like breviaries.  It's not that they contain everything that always must be said for any particular occasion; rather, we take what we need according to our circumstances. 

I prefer the Jordanville prayer book to that of HTM in terms of the language; while antiquated, I think it flows better than the HTM book, so it was what I used regularly before upgrading to the canonical hours.  But just because there are more prayers doesn't mean you have to say them all.  The Jordanville book has all the contents of the HTM's morning prayer (if you know where and for what to look), so you can use that model and have a shorter prayer, and do something similar for the evening.  Or you can cycle through the prayers.  I'd think there's some leeway, as long as you pick something that works for you and stick with it.     
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2013, 10:39:46 AM »

Only issue I may have with the Jordanville is that the morning prayers seem a little long. Not that its wrong to pray for a long time, but I would probably find myself skipping around a good bit, and id hate to make a habit out of that.

After the usual disclaimer about consulting with your spiritual father/confessor regarding rules of prayer and alterations thereto...

One of my professors once shared with me the insight that Orthodox liturgical books are more like anthologies and less like breviaries.  It's not that they contain everything that always must be said for any particular occasion; rather, we take what we need according to our circumstances. 

I prefer the Jordanville prayer book to that of HTM in terms of the language; while antiquated, I think it flows better than the HTM book, so it was what I used regularly before upgrading to the canonical hours.  But just because there are more prayers doesn't mean you have to say them all.  The Jordanville book has all the contents of the HTM's morning prayer (if you know where and for what to look), so you can use that model and have a shorter prayer, and do something similar for the evening.  Or you can cycle through the prayers.  I'd think there's some leeway, as long as you pick something that works for you and stick with it.     

I think i may go ahead and order me one of these. I think the little red book is great for travel, which I do fairly often, but i think id like to have a little more now.

Thanks everyone for the replies and clearing up some questions about the HTM book.
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2013, 10:56:14 AM »

So far I quite like the revised KJV stuff published by CTOS in Etna. I'd like to see them attempt a prayer book in the near future. So far I think they've only published the Small Compline with the Akathist.

If any of you have had a chance to look properly at any of these, what are your thoughts on the language?
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2013, 11:34:44 AM »

So far I quite like the revised KJV stuff published by CTOS in Etna. I'd like to see them attempt a prayer book in the near future. So far I think they've only published the Small Compline with the Akathist.

If any of you have had a chance to look properly at any of these, what are your thoughts on the language?

Etna has done some excellent scholarly work. Furthermore, they are not isolationists (cultish) as are the HOCNA Name-Worshippers.
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2013, 09:39:11 PM »

it's the only english prayerbook i have and to me it doth sound supremely clunky

Oh, but it doth not be the clunkiest. Examine the syntax of Fr. Seraphim Nasser's "Divine Prayers and Services" if you have a chance, and pity those who must chant from it.

You've not come across Br Isaac Lambertsen's efforts published by SJKP?  Shocked

Oh yes. I have the complete octoechos. We use Nasser at church, though.
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2013, 10:23:19 PM »

it's the only english prayerbook i have and to me it doth sound supremely clunky

Oh, but it doth not be the clunkiest. Examine the syntax of Fr. Seraphim Nasser's "Divine Prayers and Services" if you have a chance, and pity those who must chant from it.

You've not come across Br Isaac Lambertsen's efforts published by SJKP?  Shocked

Oh yes. I have the complete octoechos. We use Nasser at church, though.

I prefer Nasser, and I have chanted from it. However, there is one humorous error in it. I think I have corrected that mistake. I remember the priest would hand Nasser to an unsuspecting adult, and motion that there was an error, but the chanter did not understand what the priest was trying to say, and so would chant what was written and then pause and try to correct it with a huge grin on his face.
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 09:29:28 AM »

Ive had the Jordanville for a few days now and love it so far! Just wanted to let everyone know.

Being in the OCA, it reads a little more familiar to what I am used to hearing in Church which i love. If anyone else reads this later on, and is searching for a prayer book, I like the Jordanville. (although there probably isnt a 'wrong' choice.."

The only thing I wish it had were little random prayers for special occasions like the little red one has. I have the red one too, so its not that big of a deal. Just like the convenience of everything being in one book. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 03:16:10 PM »

Ive had the Jordanville for a few days now and love it so far! Just wanted to let everyone know.

Being in the OCA, it reads a little more familiar to what I am used to hearing in Church which i love. If anyone else reads this later on, and is searching for a prayer book, I like the Jordanville. (although there probably isnt a 'wrong' choice.."

The only thing I wish it had were little random prayers for special occasions like the little red one has. I have the red one too, so its not that big of a deal. Just like the convenience of everything being in one book. Smiley

The paid version of the Pray Always app's most recent update has many of the random prayers from the Little Red Prayer Book, the Jordanville prayers, and now the Hours all in one handy location. My only problem is that praying with phone in hand doesn't seem quite as right as with book Cheesy
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »

Ive had the Jordanville for a few days now and love it so far! Just wanted to let everyone know.

Being in the OCA, it reads a little more familiar to what I am used to hearing in Church which i love. If anyone else reads this later on, and is searching for a prayer book, I like the Jordanville. (although there probably isnt a 'wrong' choice.."

The only thing I wish it had were little random prayers for special occasions like the little red one has. I have the red one too, so its not that big of a deal. Just like the convenience of everything being in one book. Smiley

The paid version of the Pray Always app's most recent update has many of the random prayers from the Little Red Prayer Book, the Jordanville prayers, and now the Hours all in one handy location. My only problem is that praying with phone in hand doesn't seem quite as right as with book Cheesy

I used the Pray Daily app on my tablet when I was overseas... It got the job done
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« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2013, 09:40:05 AM »

Ive had the Jordanville for a few days now and love it so far! Just wanted to let everyone know.

Being in the OCA, it reads a little more familiar to what I am used to hearing in Church which i love. If anyone else reads this later on, and is searching for a prayer book, I like the Jordanville. (although there probably isnt a 'wrong' choice.."

The only thing I wish it had were little random prayers for special occasions like the little red one has. I have the red one too, so its not that big of a deal. Just like the convenience of everything being in one book. Smiley

The paid version of the Pray Always app's most recent update has many of the random prayers from the Little Red Prayer Book, the Jordanville prayers, and now the Hours all in one handy location. My only problem is that praying with phone in hand doesn't seem quite as right as with book Cheesy

I feel the same way. I wouldnt want to be reading a prayer and have a friend send a text (which would probably contain some sort of hilariously foul language) and end up distracted. Guess theres always airplane mode though...
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« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2013, 09:57:12 AM »

Being a fan of John Milton, the more tortured and artificial the syntax, the better.
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