Author Topic: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians  (Read 14793 times)

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #270 on: June 26, 2013, 12:48:20 PM »
In my home region the peasants would call the Catholics simply Hungarians. Their church Hungarian church their Easter Hungarian Easter their priest Hungarian "popA". Catholic was a foggy term to the older generations.
It is interesting-telling-that the "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" now confesses its faith "Într-una, sfântă, catolică și apostolică Biserică," while the Romanian Orthodox Church continues to confess the Faith "întru una, sfântă, sobornicească și apostolească Biserică."

On that note, on the issue of post Vatican II attempts to prey on the Orthodox, I would count the appearance of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" in Romanian a year after its first appearance, years before its appearance in English:although very few of the Vatican's flock in Romania speak Romanian. I saw stacks of them in its main cathedral in Bucharest, where everything was in Hungarian.  And  it wasn't teaching the "Orthodox Confession of the Catholic and Apostolic Eastern Church."
They have Masses in both Romanian and Hungarian and sometimes even in Latin. the words "Într-una, sfântă, catolică și apostolică Biserică," are in the Romanian language so there are Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics who speak Romanian. 
The "Roman Catholics" outnumber the "Greek Catholics" in Romania, no matter who is counting, and both together are dwarfed by the nearly 90% Orthodox majority.

Of those under the Vatican in Romania, most are Hungarian-hence why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).

IOW, there was a larger need, and a higher priority, to translate and distribute it in English, than in Romanian, if pastoral concerns lay behind it.

Actually, the part about the translation of the CCC is not accurate.
what is inaccurate about it?

The translation was a grass-roots (lay) initiative. It had nothing to do with "proselytizing" intentions of RC hierarchy.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #271 on: June 26, 2013, 12:48:52 PM »
Mr. White's an anarchist who uses Marxist arguments because he doesn't like libertarians, and he's not ultramontane.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 12:49:33 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #272 on: June 26, 2013, 12:49:27 PM »
Quote
•American Eastern Orthodox converts. Owen White called this. The boomlet’s over. In the end you’ll see a couple more Western whites there but mostly continued stolid decline (as Bill Tighe says of their cousins the little PNCC) with most of the few converts remaining people like Tom Hanks, basically nothingarians (ex-Catholics and ex-Protestants) who marry into it (yep, the plot of My Big Fat Greek Wedding), which is great for them. A folk Catholicism that should reteach the official church a few things; now that’s good ecumenism.
I am interested to hear what basis this opinion is founded on.  I have quite a few Orthodox and Catholic friends and far more Orthodox are converts than Catholics. The Orthodox seem to be much more hyper about their beliefs than Catholics are. (whether that is a good or bad thing is up for debate, I suppose). I only know of one person who "married into" Orthodoxy and I know several who married into Catholicism.

I'm not saying they are all joining for good reasons.  I know some join because it is a "Popeless" Catholicism, but that doesn't take away the fact that there seems to be little evidence of a "stolid decline".


They're more noticeable because they're big fish in a shrinking pond.

Are you saying there are fewer Orthodox now than there were in the 90's?  I haven't seen any indication that that is true...  Where are you getting that info from?

No numbers (yet?) but the phenomenon is well known, as is the official Orthodox exaggeration of their numbers.
Thanks.  That mote has been bothering me.  While you are at it, can you chop down that forest over at the Annuario Pontificio?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #273 on: June 26, 2013, 12:50:49 PM »
Quote
•American Eastern Orthodox converts. Owen White called this. The boomlet’s over. In the end you’ll see a couple more Western whites there but mostly continued stolid decline (as Bill Tighe says of their cousins the little PNCC) with most of the few converts remaining people like Tom Hanks, basically nothingarians (ex-Catholics and ex-Protestants) who marry into it (yep, the plot of My Big Fat Greek Wedding), which is great for them. A folk Catholicism that should reteach the official church a few things; now that’s good ecumenism.
I am interested to hear what basis this opinion is founded on.  I have quite a few Orthodox and Catholic friends and far more Orthodox are converts than Catholics. The Orthodox seem to be much more hyper about their beliefs than Catholics are. (whether that is a good or bad thing is up for debate, I suppose). I only know of one person who "married into" Orthodoxy and I know several who married into Catholicism.

I'm not saying they are all joining for good reasons.  I know some join because it is a "Popeless" Catholicism, but that doesn't take away the fact that there seems to be little evidence of a "stolid decline".


They're more noticeable because they're big fish in a shrinking pond.

Are you saying there are fewer Orthodox now than there were in the 90's?  I haven't seen any indication that that is true...  Where are you getting that info from?

No numbers (yet?) but the phenomenon is well known, as is the official Orthodox exaggeration of their numbers.
Thanks.  That mote has been bothering me.  While you are at it, can you chop down that forest over at the Annuario Pontificio?

Oh, my God! Catholic churchmen have faults and commit sins! Must throw rosary away. East good, West baaaaaad. Please.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #274 on: June 26, 2013, 01:03:35 PM »
In my home region the peasants would call the Catholics simply Hungarians. Their church Hungarian church their Easter Hungarian Easter their priest Hungarian "popA". Catholic was a foggy term to the older generations.
It is interesting-telling-that the "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" now confesses its faith "Într-una, sfântă, catolică și apostolică Biserică," while the Romanian Orthodox Church continues to confess the Faith "întru una, sfântă, sobornicească și apostolească Biserică."

On that note, on the issue of post Vatican II attempts to prey on the Orthodox, I would count the appearance of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" in Romanian a year after its first appearance, years before its appearance in English:although very few of the Vatican's flock in Romania speak Romanian. I saw stacks of them in its main cathedral in Bucharest, where everything was in Hungarian.  And  it wasn't teaching the "Orthodox Confession of the Catholic and Apostolic Eastern Church."
They have Masses in both Romanian and Hungarian and sometimes even in Latin. the words "Într-una, sfântă, catolică și apostolică Biserică," are in the Romanian language so there are Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics who speak Romanian. 
The "Roman Catholics" outnumber the "Greek Catholics" in Romania, no matter who is counting, and both together are dwarfed by the nearly 90% Orthodox majority.

Of those under the Vatican in Romania, most are Hungarian-hence why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).

IOW, there was a larger need, and a higher priority, to translate and distribute it in English, than in Romanian, if pastoral concerns lay behind it.

Actually, the part about the translation of the CCC is not accurate.
what is inaccurate about it?

The translation was a grass-roots (lay) initiative. It had nothing to do with "proselytizing" intentions of RC hierarchy.
Sorry, that's not going to cut it.  The English speaking world suffered from no lack of grass-roots translation, but the Vatican didn't slap its imprematur on that-its US Bishops Conference kept that until its control for two years.  In contrast, the Romanian got its imprematur and nihil obstat within the year of the French promulgation (the original-the official Latin version wasn't promulgated for almost 5 years, and included changes, e.g. on the death penalty). The promulgating authority of the CCC, their supreme pontiff John Paul II-his native Polish had to wait as long as English, although his church was firmly in control then, again, of Poland, and had something like 20x the number of followers of the Vatican than Romania.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #275 on: June 26, 2013, 01:17:28 PM »
Quote
•American Eastern Orthodox converts. Owen White called this. The boomlet’s over. In the end you’ll see a couple more Western whites there but mostly continued stolid decline (as Bill Tighe says of their cousins the little PNCC) with most of the few converts remaining people like Tom Hanks, basically nothingarians (ex-Catholics and ex-Protestants) who marry into it (yep, the plot of My Big Fat Greek Wedding), which is great for them. A folk Catholicism that should reteach the official church a few things; now that’s good ecumenism.
I am interested to hear what basis this opinion is founded on.  I have quite a few Orthodox and Catholic friends and far more Orthodox are converts than Catholics. The Orthodox seem to be much more hyper about their beliefs than Catholics are. (whether that is a good or bad thing is up for debate, I suppose). I only know of one person who "married into" Orthodoxy and I know several who married into Catholicism.

I'm not saying they are all joining for good reasons.  I know some join because it is a "Popeless" Catholicism, but that doesn't take away the fact that there seems to be little evidence of a "stolid decline".


They're more noticeable because they're big fish in a shrinking pond.

Are you saying there are fewer Orthodox now than there were in the 90's?  I haven't seen any indication that that is true...  Where are you getting that info from?

No numbers (yet?) but the phenomenon is well known, as is the official Orthodox exaggeration of their numbers.
It is so well known that I've never heard of it, but I should take your word for it?  ???  Forgive me for asking, I thought there was some actual useful information that you might have gleaned from somewhere.  My bad.  ::)
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #276 on: June 26, 2013, 01:29:19 PM »
Quote
•American Eastern Orthodox converts. Owen White called this. The boomlet’s over. In the end you’ll see a couple more Western whites there but mostly continued stolid decline (as Bill Tighe says of their cousins the little PNCC) with most of the few converts remaining people like Tom Hanks, basically nothingarians (ex-Catholics and ex-Protestants) who marry into it (yep, the plot of My Big Fat Greek Wedding), which is great for them. A folk Catholicism that should reteach the official church a few things; now that’s good ecumenism.
I am interested to hear what basis this opinion is founded on.  I have quite a few Orthodox and Catholic friends and far more Orthodox are converts than Catholics. The Orthodox seem to be much more hyper about their beliefs than Catholics are. (whether that is a good or bad thing is up for debate, I suppose). I only know of one person who "married into" Orthodoxy and I know several who married into Catholicism.

I'm not saying they are all joining for good reasons.  I know some join because it is a "Popeless" Catholicism, but that doesn't take away the fact that there seems to be little evidence of a "stolid decline".


They're more noticeable because they're big fish in a shrinking pond.

Are you saying there are fewer Orthodox now than there were in the 90's?  I haven't seen any indication that that is true...  Where are you getting that info from?

No numbers (yet?) but the phenomenon is well known, as is the official Orthodox exaggeration of their numbers.
Thanks.  That mote has been bothering me.  While you are at it, can you chop down that forest over at the Annuario Pontificio?

Oh, my God! Catholic churchmen have faults and commit sins! Must throw rosary away. East good, West baaaaaad. Please.
You brought it up

"For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Douay-Rheims)

Western Rite Orthodox, very goooooooooood.

Please yourself
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #277 on: June 26, 2013, 01:35:47 PM »
Google search.

We each want to build a bridge for the other to walk to us from. Let's just be honest about that, shake hands, and leave each other alone.
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Offline xariskai

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #278 on: June 26, 2013, 01:46:09 PM »


« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 01:48:12 PM by xariskai »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #279 on: June 26, 2013, 01:48:51 PM »
Google search.

We each want to build a bridge for the other to walk to us from. Let's just be honest about that, shake hands, and leave each other alone.

I like your search because it doesn't have a single page that gives any number or really says anything about American Orthodox being inflated OR the number of converts slowing.

I know or care little about building bridges, but if you are going to post stuff about how Orthodoxy in America is shrinking, they inflate their numbers, they don't have many converts or blah, blah, blah, perhaps having a modicum of evidence to support any of those allegations would be helpful. Otherwise, this might be a better search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+young+fogey+makes+crap+up+to+suit+his+own+narrative
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #280 on: June 26, 2013, 01:50:07 PM »
I want going to post this thought , I really promised myself last weekend,but I just can't help it.

Does anyone else notice that, politics excepted 100% of course,  that Serge, the "Young Fogey", and Varvara of "Voices from Russia"  agree on much regarding relations between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, including an unusual antipathy towards converts?  

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #281 on: June 26, 2013, 01:56:21 PM »
I want going to post this thought , I really promised myself last weekend,but I just can't help it.

Does anyone else notice that, politics excepted 100% of course,  that Serge, the "Young Fogey", and Varvara of "Voices from Russia"  agree on much regarding relations between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, including an unusual antipathy towards converts?  

But Stanley/Varvara hates Catholicism ('graceless heretics'), right?
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #282 on: June 26, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »
...why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).
Because all of the missals in the  Romanian language were sold out at the time you were there. Most of the Roman Catholic Masses there are in the Romanian language, no?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #283 on: June 26, 2013, 03:22:55 PM »
...why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).
Because all of the missals in the  Romanian language were sold out at the time you were there. Most of the Roman Catholic Masses there are in the Romanian language, no?
No. Hungarian.

The Missals were not for sale.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #284 on: June 26, 2013, 03:52:03 PM »
I want going to post this thought , I really promised myself last weekend,but I just can't help it.

Does anyone else notice that, politics excepted 100% of course,  that Serge, the "Young Fogey", and Varvara of "Voices from Russia"  agree on much regarding relations between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, including an unusual antipathy towards converts?  

But Stanley/Varvara hates Catholicism ('graceless heretics'), right?

Eastern Catholics, not so much Roman ones....

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #285 on: June 26, 2013, 03:54:32 PM »
Where does Stanley/Vavara attend? One would think a priest would discourage his/her actions.  I admittedly know little about him/her other than just seeing references.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 03:55:00 PM by TheTrisagion »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #286 on: June 26, 2013, 03:55:34 PM »
...why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).
Because all of the missals in the  Romanian language were sold out at the time you were there. Most of the Roman Catholic Masses there are in the Romanian language, no?
No. Hungarian.

The Missals were not for sale.

The situation is very different for the RC's in different parts of the country. In the Western part, most RC's are Hungarians, and a minority are of Romanian, German, Bulgarian, Slovak or Croatian descent. There is an increasing demand for Masses in Romanian, since many come from mixed families or are converts / former Greek Catholics turned RC. However, the bishops insist that their clergy be formed at the Alba Iulia seminary in Hungarian. There are few vocations and the older clergy is most of the time not proficient in Romanian.   

In the Eastern part (the Iasi and Bucharest dioceses), the RC's have been naturalized (some may have Polish or Hungarian/Csango roots) and speak Romanian. Families have many kids, there is a boom in vocations, many religious orders, they export missionary priests to Africa or Western Europe, etc. They have been using Romanian as the language of catechesis and - since it was possible - liturgy.

In the RC cathedral of Timisoara there are three Masses (Hungarian, German, Romanian) every Sunday and solemn pontifical Masses are tri-lingual. In Bucharest and Iasi, everything is done in Romanian and they are growing. The Hungarian/German bishops of the Transylvania are more conservative regarding ethnic identity and their numbers are shrinking.   

RC ordinations to the priesthood in Iasi last year
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 04:13:53 PM by Romaios »

Offline Nephi

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #287 on: June 26, 2013, 04:02:56 PM »
Where does Stanley/Vavara attend? One would think a priest would discourage his/her actions.  I admittedly know little about him/her other than just seeing references.

Who are Stanley/Vavara even?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #288 on: June 26, 2013, 04:12:03 PM »
Where does Stanley/Vavara attend? One would think a priest would discourage his/her actions.  I admittedly know little about him/her other than just seeing references.

Who are Stanley/Vavara even?
A particularly venomous anti-convert, Russian, transexual, communist Orthodox blogger. Never thought you would see all those words in one sentence, did you?  :D

http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #289 on: June 26, 2013, 04:28:11 PM »
Where does Stanley/Vavara attend? One would think a priest would discourage his/her actions.  I admittedly know little about him/her other than just seeing references.

Who are Stanley/Vavara even?
A particularly venomous anti-convert, Russian, transexual, communist Orthodox blogger. Never thought you would see all those words in one sentence, did you?  :D

http://02varvara.wordpress.com/

I'm honestly surprised you didn't link me to a Tumblr page after that sentence. ;)

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #290 on: June 26, 2013, 04:57:28 PM »
Quote
•American Eastern Orthodox converts. Owen White called this. The boomlet’s over. In the end you’ll see a couple more Western whites there but mostly continued stolid decline (as Bill Tighe says of their cousins the little PNCC) with most of the few converts remaining people like Tom Hanks, basically nothingarians (ex-Catholics and ex-Protestants) who marry into it (yep, the plot of My Big Fat Greek Wedding), which is great for them. A folk Catholicism that should reteach the official church a few things; now that’s good ecumenism.
I am interested to hear what basis this opinion is founded on.  I have quite a few Orthodox and Catholic friends and far more Orthodox are converts than Catholics. The Orthodox seem to be much more hyper about their beliefs than Catholics are. (whether that is a good or bad thing is up for debate, I suppose). I only know of one person who "married into" Orthodoxy and I know several who married into Catholicism.

I'm not saying they are all joining for good reasons.  I know some join because it is a "Popeless" Catholicism, but that doesn't take away the fact that there seems to be little evidence of a "stolid decline".


They're more noticeable because they're big fish in a shrinking pond.

Are you saying there are fewer Orthodox now than there were in the 90's?  I haven't seen any indication that that is true...  Where are you getting that info from?

No numbers (yet?) but the phenomenon is well known, as is the official Orthodox exaggeration of their numbers.

Sophistry at it's finest. "We don't have any numbers, but any evidence you see to the contrary of my assertion is actually evidence for my assertion, fish in a shrinking pond, etc."

It is little wonder that nobody would want to build bridges with Roman Catholicism, when that would mean having such great philosophasters as a coreligionists.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 05:01:14 PM by Cavaradossi »
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Offline William

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #291 on: June 26, 2013, 05:20:21 PM »
I wasted a lot of time reading ex-Orthodox blogs last night. The main arguments seemed to be online Orthodox are mean and overzealous, Catholicism is bigger so it wins, and Orthodoxy is shrinking.

Trisagion, if you want some stats that aren't from insecure ex-converts, this website is pretty fair in dispelling exaggerations and inflation: http://www.orthodoxreality.org/
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #292 on: June 26, 2013, 05:40:30 PM »
I've not come across many groups, religious or otherwise, who don't exaggerate their numbers. Some music fans, perhaps, who base part of their identity on being part of an elite and enlightened group of 14 people who know about some obscure band or other. But that's about it. I have even heard the old calendarists, who are usually quick to say that numbers mean nothing, exaggerate their numbers to a disgusting degree. But I think in the last 3 years or so, with a couple reports giving more accurate numbers for Orthodox, these absurd figures like 6 million or 3 million are seen much less often. Of course we still get numbers just as absurd regarding the worldwide population of Orthodoxy, but then that's a separate issue as this discussion seems to be about Orthodoxy in America.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #293 on: June 26, 2013, 06:02:21 PM »
...why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).
Because all of the missals in the  Romanian language were sold out at the time you were there. Most of the Roman Catholic Masses there are in the Romanian language, no?
No. Hungarian.

The Missals were not for sale.
How often were you there?  Occasionally, I would see in the Bucharest Church copies of: Carte De Rugaciuni. Sfinta Liturghie. This was a small paperback missal of about 334 pages, entirely in the  Romanian language and was available to take home.   
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 06:04:04 PM by stanley123 »

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #294 on: June 26, 2013, 09:38:14 PM »
So what are the real number nationally and globally? My guessy guess with no real information is maybe 1 million in America and 200 million globally?

Offline xariskai

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #295 on: June 26, 2013, 10:06:47 PM »
Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (2011) gave a little over 260 million.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #296 on: June 26, 2013, 10:30:40 PM »
Actually, the part about the translation of the CCC is not accurate.
what is inaccurate about it?

The translation was a grass-roots (lay) initiative. It had nothing to do with "proselytizing" intentions of RC hierarchy.

I didn't know the details until you supplied them, but even so I seriously doubted the proselytizing-theory. (You didn't think we Catholics were that bad at proselytizing, did you?  :D)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #297 on: June 26, 2013, 10:37:25 PM »
I've not come across many groups, religious or otherwise, who don't exaggerate their numbers.

Which is pretty silly. Numbers don't matter, which is why I'm never going to release any for my church (which I'll be starting any day now, by the way).
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Offline Surnaturel

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #298 on: June 26, 2013, 11:34:16 PM »
Quote
•American Eastern Orthodox converts. Owen White called this. The boomlet’s over. In the end you’ll see a couple more Western whites there but mostly continued stolid decline (as Bill Tighe says of their cousins the little PNCC) with most of the few converts remaining people like Tom Hanks, basically nothingarians (ex-Catholics and ex-Protestants) who marry into it (yep, the plot of My Big Fat Greek Wedding), which is great for them. A folk Catholicism that should reteach the official church a few things; now that’s good ecumenism.
I am interested to hear what basis this opinion is founded on.  I have quite a few Orthodox and Catholic friends and far more Orthodox are converts than Catholics. The Orthodox seem to be much more hyper about their beliefs than Catholics are. (whether that is a good or bad thing is up for debate, I suppose). I only know of one person who "married into" Orthodoxy and I know several who married into Catholicism.

I'm not saying they are all joining for good reasons.  I know some join because it is a "Popeless" Catholicism, but that doesn't take away the fact that there seems to be little evidence of a "stolid decline".


They're more noticeable because they're big fish in a shrinking pond.

Are you saying there are fewer Orthodox now than there were in the 90's?  I haven't seen any indication that that is true...  Where are you getting that info from?

No numbers (yet?) but the phenomenon is well known, as is the official Orthodox exaggeration of their numbers.

Sophistry at it's finest. "We don't have any numbers, but any evidence you see to the contrary of my assertion is actually evidence for my assertion, fish in a shrinking pond, etc."

It is little wonder that nobody would want to build bridges with Roman Catholicism, when that would mean having such great philosophasters as a coreligionists.
Careful not to be tendentious to the whole, many of which are, at times, overly charitable to the Orthodox, because of the few.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #299 on: June 26, 2013, 11:36:56 PM »
I've not come across many groups, religious or otherwise, who don't exaggerate their numbers.

Which is pretty silly. Numbers don't matter, which is why I'm never going to release any for my church (which I'll be starting any day now, by the way).

Smart. Keep it secretive mysterious. A thought--make up hundreds of websites for phantom parishes across the world. If a potential inquirer asks about one in his city simply tell him that the parish is in hiatus, and that you would be happy to catechize him over the interwebs.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #300 on: June 27, 2013, 12:13:51 AM »
Where does Stanley/Vavara attend? One would think a priest would discourage his/her actions.  I admittedly know little about him/her other than just seeing references.

Who are Stanley/Vavara even?
A particularly venomous anti-convert, Russian, transexual, communist Orthodox blogger. Never thought you would see all those words in one sentence, did you?  :D

http://02varvara.wordpress.com/
You left out "Upper New Yorker"-the "Voices of Russia" shriek from Albany.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #301 on: June 27, 2013, 12:24:12 AM »
...why all the books I saw (except the CCC) in the Cathedral were in Hungarian (some announcements on the board were German and Romanian).
Because all of the missals in the  Romanian language were sold out at the time you were there. Most of the Roman Catholic Masses there are in the Romanian language, no?
No. Hungarian.

The Missals were not for sale.
How often were you there?  Occasionally, I would see in the Bucharest Church copies of: Carte De Rugaciuni. Sfinta Liturghie. This was a small paperback missal of about 334 pages, entirely in the  Romanian language and was available to take home.   
Not often, and not since 1993.  But then we were talking about the time when the Catechism came out, not the present day (I don't know when you were there).

Btw, we are talking about Sf. Iosif?  I seem to recall something about the "Romanian Church in Union with Rome, Greek Catholic" taking it over or some such thing, their Supreme Pontif reading a Byzantine Liturgy there when he visited.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #302 on: June 27, 2013, 12:25:22 AM »
Actually, the part about the translation of the CCC is not accurate.
what is inaccurate about it?

The translation was a grass-roots (lay) initiative. It had nothing to do with "proselytizing" intentions of RC hierarchy.

I didn't know the details until you supplied them, but even so I seriously doubted the proselytizing-theory. (You didn't think we Catholics were that bad at proselytizing, did you?  :D)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #303 on: June 27, 2013, 08:32:04 AM »
I've not come across many groups, religious or otherwise, who don't exaggerate their numbers.

Which is pretty silly. Numbers don't matter, which is why I'm never going to release any for my church (which I'll be starting any day now, by the way).

Smart. Keep it secretive mysterious. A thought--make up hundreds of websites for phantom parishes across the world. If a potential inquirer asks about one in his city simply tell him that the parish is in hiatus, and that you would be happy to catechize him over the interwebs.
Ooooh, I like this idea!  Can I join your cool religion?  What does it teach?  Can I start a phantom diocese?  I call Archbishop position!  ;D
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #304 on: June 27, 2013, 08:44:41 AM »
Among the few Romanians I've met is a man whose family switched from Greek Catholic to Roman Catholic rather than obey the Communist order to become Orthodox.

This happened also among the Lemkos of Poland.  They split three ways -- some became Roman Catholic (and passing as such - as Poles - helped to avoid deportation), some became Orthodox, and some conducted underground Greek Catholic services.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #305 on: June 27, 2013, 09:01:19 AM »
Among the few Romanians I've met is a man whose family switched from Greek Catholic to Roman Catholic rather than obey the Communist order to become Orthodox.

This happened also among the Lemkos of Poland.  They split three ways -- some became Roman Catholic (and passing as such - as Poles - helped to avoid deportation), some became Orthodox, and some conducted underground Greek Catholic services.
It happened in Ukraine as well. There was a large thread on that on another forum this year.

And in all three cases-Romania, Ukraine and Poland, the move back to Orthodoxy began WAAAAY before the Communists took over.  In fact, it took place long before the Orthodox took over, when the minions of the Vatican still ruled the roost.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 09:03:30 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #306 on: June 27, 2013, 09:26:24 AM »
I've not come across many groups, religious or otherwise, who don't exaggerate their numbers.

Which is pretty silly. Numbers don't matter, which is why I'm never going to release any for my church (which I'll be starting any day now, by the way).

Smart. Keep it secretive mysterious. A thought--make up hundreds of websites for phantom parishes across the world. If a potential inquirer asks about one in his city simply tell him that the parish is in hiatus, and that you would be happy to catechize him over the interwebs.
Ooooh, I like this idea!  Can I join your cool religion?  What does it teach?  Can I start a phantom diocese?  I call Archbishop position!  ;D

If you're the head of another church, we could consider a merger. Next synod meeting, I'll motion for the appointment of a committee to review your church's credentials.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #307 on: June 27, 2013, 09:34:27 AM »
I've not come across many groups, religious or otherwise, who don't exaggerate their numbers.

Which is pretty silly. Numbers don't matter, which is why I'm never going to release any for my church (which I'll be starting any day now, by the way).

Smart. Keep it secretive mysterious. A thought--make up hundreds of websites for phantom parishes across the world. If a potential inquirer asks about one in his city simply tell him that the parish is in hiatus, and that you would be happy to catechize him over the interwebs.
Ooooh, I like this idea!  Can I join your cool religion?  What does it teach?  Can I start a phantom diocese?  I call Archbishop position!  ;D

If you're the head of another church, we could consider a merger. Next synod meeting, I'll motion for the appointment of a committee to review your church's credentials.
Absolutely not.  Your heretical belief of numeroclasm has placed schism between our traditions. REPENT and we can consider revoking our anathemas against you, the number-haters. We consider any payment in excess of $19.99 as an acceptable example of repentance and will revoke our anathemas at that time.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline mike

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #308 on: June 27, 2013, 09:40:15 AM »
And in all three cases-Romania, Ukraine and Poland, the move back to Orthodoxy began WAAAAY before the Communists took over.  In fact, it took place long before the Orthodox took over, when the minions of the Vatican still ruled the roost.

Untrue. At least in Poland and Ukraine.
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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #309 on: June 27, 2013, 10:05:19 AM »
Among the few Romanians I've met is a man whose family switched from Greek Catholic to Roman Catholic rather than obey the Communist order to become Orthodox.

This happened also among the Lemkos of Poland.  They split three ways -- some became Roman Catholic (and passing as such - as Poles - helped to avoid deportation), some became Orthodox, and some conducted underground Greek Catholic services.

It happened in the United States as well, but due to the decades of internecine squabbles within the Greek Catholic/Orthodox communities if Lemmon, Rusyn and Ukrainian immigrants rather than the communists.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #310 on: June 27, 2013, 10:39:54 AM »
And in all three cases-Romania, Ukraine and Poland, the move back to Orthodoxy began WAAAAY before the Communists took over.  In fact, it took place long before the Orthodox took over, when the minions of the Vatican still ruled the roost.

Untrue. At least in Poland and Ukraine.
The Austrians and Hungarians were already prosecuting in court and dismissing from positions the newly returned Orthodox in the 1880's in Galicia, where the Orthodox officially did not exist.  A milestone was the 1882 treason trial of Ivan Naumovich, a Ruthenian priest ordained by the Vatican and member of the Galician and then Austrian Parliaments.  His crime?  Drafting a petition of a Ruthenian village that wanted to go from submission to the Vatican to come under the omophorion of the Metropolitan of Czernowitz, the local Orthodox primate.  Acquitted, he was sentenced for "public disturbance" and served 8 months in prison, and lost his seat in the Parliament, and then was excommunicated by the Vatican.  St. Alexeis Kabaliuk himself became embroiled in the Second Maramuresh-Sighet Trial of 1913: the First was in 1903, and for the same "crime"-return to Orthodoxy. (he was freed from prison when the regime fell in 1918).  Such led to the Talerhof Concentration Camps, where St. Maxim Sandovich was martyred.

Galicia remained outside the Soviet Union, and came under the Vatican's most loyal daughter, the Second Polish Republic, and so was subject to the same Revindication Campaigns as the rest of its territory.

The Tyvala "schism" (i.e. the return to Catholic unity under bishops in the Orthodox diptychs) started in 1926 and alarmed the Vatican that it created the Lemko Apostolic Administration to put the area of southern Poland directly under itself.

I purposely do not count the Chelm Diocese, as the Czar did have control of that area, although the conversion was done by refugee returners to Orthodoxy from Austria Hungary.

So in the areas where neither the Most Orthodox Czar nor the Soviet Commissar had control before 1945, the return to Orthodoxy had been well under way.  That includes Czechoslovakia too, btw.
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Offline mike

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #311 on: June 27, 2013, 11:21:26 AM »
So in the areas where neither the Most Orthodox Czar nor the Soviet Commissar had control before 1945, the return to Orthodoxy had been well under way.  That includes Czechoslovakia too, btw.

In terms of numbers forced convertions greatly outrun those guerrilla ones.
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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #312 on: June 27, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »
And in all three cases-Romania, Ukraine and Poland, the move back to Orthodoxy began WAAAAY before the Communists took over.  In fact, it took place long before the Orthodox took over, when the minions of the Vatican still ruled the roost.

Untrue. At least in Poland and Ukraine.
The Austrians and Hungarians were already prosecuting in court and dismissing from positions the newly returned Orthodox in the 1880's in Galicia, where the Orthodox officially did not exist.  A milestone was the 1882 treason trial of Ivan Naumovich, a Ruthenian priest ordained by the Vatican and member of the Galician and then Austrian Parliaments.  His crime?  Drafting a petition of a Ruthenian village that wanted to go from submission to the Vatican to come under the omophorion of the Metropolitan of Czernowitz, the local Orthodox primate.  Acquitted, he was sentenced for "public disturbance" and served 8 months in prison, and lost his seat in the Parliament, and then was excommunicated by the Vatican.  St. Alexeis Kabaliuk himself became embroiled in the Second Maramuresh-Sighet Trial of 1913: the First was in 1903, and for the same "crime"-return to Orthodoxy. (he was freed from prison when the regime fell in 1918).  Such led to the Talerhof Concentration Camps, where St. Maxim Sandovich was martyred.

Galicia remained outside the Soviet Union, and came under the Vatican's most loyal daughter, the Second Polish Republic, and so was subject to the same Revindication Campaigns as the rest of its territory.

The Tyvala "schism" (i.e. the return to Catholic unity under bishops in the Orthodox diptychs) started in 1926 and alarmed the Vatican that it created the Lemko Apostolic Administration to put the area of southern Poland directly under itself.

I purposely do not count the Chelm Diocese, as the Czar did have control of that area, although the conversion was done by refugee returners to Orthodoxy from Austria Hungary.

So in the areas where neither the Most Orthodox Czar nor the Soviet Commissar had control before 1945, the return to Orthodoxy had been well under way.  That includes Czechoslovakia too, btw.

Yes, some were returning to Orthodoxy pre WW1 as a form of political opposition to the Hungarians  with the support and money of emigres who faced Roman opposition to their presence in America. After the war, the presence of the ROCOR in Ladimirova, Slovakia led to  additional converts in the villages surrounding the monastery (including the family of the late Metropolitan Laurus). People from Minneapolis funded an Orthodox church in Becherov and people from Ambridge, Pa funded one in Svetlice (Vilagy), both in Slovakia between the wars, but these were the exception rather than the rule. If my memory is correct, most of the Czechoslovak Orthodox church pre World War 2 was ethnically Czech and were Protestant and Roman Catholic converts rather than Greek Catholic converts. The ham handedness of the Russians, coupled with the collaboration of some local Greek Catholics in outlawing the Greek Catholic church at the onset of the Cold War set Orthodoxy back to the extent that still reverberates their to this day. Current Slovak census data is consistent with my premise.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #313 on: June 27, 2013, 01:44:59 PM »
So in the areas where neither the Most Orthodox Czar nor the Soviet Commissar had control before 1945, the return to Orthodoxy had been well under way.  That includes Czechoslovakia too, btw.

In terms of numbers forced convertions greatly outrun those guerrilla ones.
You didn't ask about numbers. Nor, for that matter, do you provide them now.

Don't quite know what a guerilla conversion is. Does it involve guns?
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians
« Reply #314 on: June 27, 2013, 02:57:22 PM »
Google search.

We each want to build a bridge for the other to walk to us from. Let's just be honest about that, shake hands, and leave each other alone.

Works for me.....!