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Author Topic: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians  (Read 10380 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #180 on: June 24, 2013, 12:22:52 PM »

Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.

Ukraine was under the Patriarchate of Constantinople even before the schism.







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« Reply #181 on: June 24, 2013, 12:26:49 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.

Catholicism missionized South America and, to a lesser degree, North America, becoming America's biggest single church, and tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Oh lol, should I  excuse myself because the Orthodox didn't force their religion at gunpoint on the natives? Why not make another addition to the creed to reflect this new mark of the Church: I believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic and colonialist Church. Development of doctrine and all that.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 12:27:07 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #182 on: June 24, 2013, 12:29:40 PM »

Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.

Ukraine was under the Patriarchate of Constantinople even before the schism.

Yes, as it remained throughout the Middle Ages until the Union of Brest-Litovsk. It was the Kiev metropolia, arguably the main see of Russian Christianity all that time, before the rise of Moscow. A whole Particular Church, as Catholicism says, that came back to the fullness of the church, given Catholicism's doctrine about the papacy. Orthodox opinion, of course, sees it as the opposite, that they left the true church.
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« Reply #183 on: June 24, 2013, 12:31:46 PM »

The Metropolitan of Kiev was a suffragan of Constantinople. Hardly a 'particular Church'.
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« Reply #184 on: June 24, 2013, 12:32:49 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.

Catholicism missionized South America and, to a lesser degree, North America, becoming America's biggest single church, and tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Oh lol, should I  excuse myself because the Orthodox didn't force their religion at gunpoint on the natives? Why not make another addition to the creed to reflect this new mark of the Church: I believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic and colonialist Church. Development of doctrine and all that.

Lines like this reinforce my unflattering theory about anti-Western Western convertodoxy. It's just exoticism like the New Agers learning Buddhist sutras, with this politically correct posturing about dead white males.

So the Russians were meek little lambs all that time, being nice to the natives around them rather than conquering them?
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« Reply #185 on: June 24, 2013, 12:33:01 PM »

Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.

Ukraine was under the Patriarchate of Constantinople even before the schism.

Yes, as it remained throughout the Middle Ages until the Union of Brest-Litovsk. It was the Kiev metropolia, arguably the main see of Russian Christianity all that time, before the rise of Moscow. A whole Particular Church, as Catholicism says, that came back to the fullness of the church, given Catholicism's doctrine about the papacy. Orthodox opinion, of course, sees it as the opposite, that they left the true church.
the fact that the UGCC has to falsify its history-Kiev was never in "dependence" on Rome, and that was by a conscious choice on Kiev's part-shows who is on the right side of that question.
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« Reply #186 on: June 24, 2013, 12:34:16 PM »

The Metropolitan of Kiev was a suffragan of Constantinople. Hardly a 'particular Church'.

In  any event, according to Catholicism he and his whole metropolia, then not only the Ukraine but Byelorussia, returned to the church, and according to Orthodoxy he left the church.
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« Reply #187 on: June 24, 2013, 12:36:19 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.

Catholicism missionized South America and, to a lesser degree, North America, becoming America's biggest single church, and tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Oh lol, should I  excuse myself because the Orthodox didn't force their religion at gunpoint on the natives? Why not make another addition to the creed to reflect this new mark of the Church: I believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic and colonialist Church. Development of doctrine and all that.

Lines like this reinforce my unflattering theory about anti-Western Western convertodoxy. It's just exoticism like the New Agers learning Buddhist sutras, with this politically correct posturing about dead white males.

So the Russians were meek little lambs all that time, being nice to the natives around them rather than conquering them?
Well, more of the natives embraced Orthodoxy once the Americans came, than had under the Czars (the Tlingit in particular).

All the histories I have read on the Bay Area contrasts the Russians with the Spanish treatment of the natives, and not to the latter's favor.
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« Reply #188 on: June 24, 2013, 12:39:00 PM »

Lines like this reinforce my unflattering theory about anti-Western Western convertodoxy. It's just exoticism like the New Agers learning Buddhist sutras, with this politically correct posturing about dead white males.

I'm not whining about colonialism nor am I anti-western. I just think that theories like 'we have more people so we are the true Church' are ignorant, especially since the Nestorian Church of the East was at one point the biggest communion and was spread throughout a larger part of the world than the Roman Catholic Church was back then.

The vast majority of the adherents to Roman Catholicism is found in parts of the world in which the ancestors of the locals were converted through very questionable means. Hardly something to be proud of. But hey, thinking that makes me an anti-western new age stoner reciting sutras while playing the banjo at a campfire.

EDIT: LOL, was I called political correct? That's hilarious.
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« Reply #189 on: June 24, 2013, 12:41:08 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.

Catholicism missionized South America and, to a lesser degree, North America, becoming America's biggest single church, and tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Oh lol, should I  excuse myself because the Orthodox didn't force their religion at gunpoint on the natives? Why not make another addition to the creed to reflect this new mark of the Church: I believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic and colonialist Church. Development of doctrine and all that.

Lines like this reinforce my unflattering theory about anti-Western Western convertodoxy. It's just exoticism like the New Agers learning Buddhist sutras, with this politically correct posturing about dead white males.

So the Russians were meek little lambs all that time, being nice to the natives around them rather than conquering them?
Well, more of the natives embraced Orthodoxy once the Americans came, than had under the Czars (the Tlingit in particular).

All the histories I have read on the Bay Area contrasts the Russians with the Spanish treatment of the natives, and not to the latter's favor.

Yeah, I guess that's why by 1950 Orthodox were America's biggest religious minority and biggest single church, and all American Indians had become Orthodox.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #190 on: June 24, 2013, 12:42:39 PM »

The Metropolitan of Kiev was a suffragan of Constantinople. Hardly a 'particular Church'.

In  any event, according to Catholicism he and his whole metropolia, then not only the Ukraine but Byelorussia, returned to the church, and according to Orthodoxy he left the church.
Whole metropolia? Hardly.  Kiev-where he metropolitan had not been for centuries, and wouldn't until Met. St. Peter Movila came to consolidate Orthodoxy-remained staunchly Orthodoxy, and the of L'viv-craddle of the UGCC-remained true to Orthodoxy, supported by the Abbot of the Kievan Caves.
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« Reply #191 on: June 24, 2013, 12:43:06 PM »

the Nestorian Church of the East was at one point the biggest communion and was spread throughout a larger part of the world than the Roman Catholic Church was back then.

I found it fascinating that a decent part of the Mongols (leadership, at least) were, for a time, Nestorian.
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« Reply #192 on: June 24, 2013, 12:43:46 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.

Catholicism missionized South America and, to a lesser degree, North America, becoming America's biggest single church, and tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Oh lol, should I  excuse myself because the Orthodox didn't force their religion at gunpoint on the natives? Why not make another addition to the creed to reflect this new mark of the Church: I believe in one, holy, catholic, apostolic and colonialist Church. Development of doctrine and all that.

Lines like this reinforce my unflattering theory about anti-Western Western convertodoxy. It's just exoticism like the New Agers learning Buddhist sutras, with this politically correct posturing about dead white males.

So the Russians were meek little lambs all that time, being nice to the natives around them rather than conquering them?
Well, more of the natives embraced Orthodoxy once the Americans came, than had under the Czars (the Tlingit in particular).

All the histories I have read on the Bay Area contrasts the Russians with the Spanish treatment of the natives, and not to the latter's favor.

Yeah, I guess that's why by 1950 Orthodox were America's biggest religious minority and biggest single church, and all American Indians had become Orthodox.  Roll Eyes
Because the Russians didn't engage in genocide, like the Spanish, Mexicans and Americans, yes.
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« Reply #193 on: June 24, 2013, 12:43:53 PM »

I agree with Schultz and I view my role here in much the same way. Having a "foot in both worlds" gives one a different pov. Sometimes a myopic one, but I think in most cases a broader view. My family's bone to pick was likewise the result of Vatican One and its misapplication of, and defining in explicit terms, the role of the Papacy.

It sure does. So did your family recently decide Vatican I isn't true and convert (possible), or are you Slavic so your family was part of the ACROD split?  (Which never should have happened, was nothing to do with doctrine, and was our own churchmen's fault. Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.)

My grandfather had a dream in his latter years. Of course he did not have any  theological insight about Vatican 1. Others of that era did however, such as the Vatican, Presov and Yale educated Orthodox priest,  Fr. Joe Mihaly (read his legal briefs and trial testimony in the Bridgeport and Binghamton court cases if you don't believe me), a young John Yurcisin,(who went on to be Father John, chancellor of the ACROD), and Fr. Orestes Koman, of the Greek Catholic Union messenger in the 1930s, who remained Greek Catholic,  both also understood the logical result of the dogmatic determinations of the ill fated western council. Just read their editorials and columns prior to the rug being pulled out from under them.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

We are home, no need to go anywhere.
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« Reply #194 on: June 24, 2013, 12:59:24 PM »

I agree with Schultz and I view my role here in much the same way. Having a "foot in both worlds" gives one a different pov. Sometimes a myopic one, but I think in most cases a broader view. My family's bone to pick was likewise the result of Vatican One and its misapplication of, and defining in explicit terms, the role of the Papacy.

It sure does. So did your family recently decide Vatican I isn't true and convert (possible), or are you Slavic so your family was part of the ACROD split?  (Which never should have happened, was nothing to do with doctrine, and was our own churchmen's fault. Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.)

My grandfather had a dream in his latter years. Of course he did not have any  theological insight about Vatican 1. Others of that era did however, such as the Vatican, Presov and Yale educated Orthodox priest,  Fr. Joe Mihaly (read his legal briefs and trial testimony in the Bridgeport and Binghamton court cases if you don't believe me), a young John Yurcisin,(who went on to be Father John, chancellor of the ACROD), and Fr. Orestes Koman, of the Greek Catholic Union messenger in the 1930s, who remained Greek Catholic,  both also understood the logical result of the dogmatic determinations of the ill fated western council. Just read their editorials and columns prior to the rug being pulled out from under them.

Understandable reaction given how they were treated but still ex post facto rationalizations in my book.

From what little I know about them, the property fights in court sometimes used unbelievably un-Catholic, un-Orthodox arguments to deny the churches were really Catholic parishes, making them sound like congregational Protestants or social clubs that happened to have prayer services. (I have no problem with trustee-ism, parish ownership of property, and sympathize with the Greek Catholics doing it; the Roman Riters were hostile to them so they needed to protect themselves.) I understand St Michael's, Binghamton kept its building because the judge was a hardline old-school Presbyterian, which made him anti-Catholic, so he gladly flouted the law in order to hurt the church. The Episcopalians locally often abetted the schism too (as they did here in Phoenixville); one of their longtime projects has been to try to separate Catholic immigrants from Rome (now it's 'Hispanic outreach').

Then you also had the court fights that were jurisdictional wars among Orthodox, such as when priests and parishes jumped dioceses, shopping for a bishop, for a number of reasons, from ethnic to personality clashes to fights over the Old Calendar and the language of the services. Congregationalism.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

And that, to me, as you doubtless can imagine, is unspeakably sad.
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« Reply #195 on: June 24, 2013, 12:59:57 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  
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« Reply #196 on: June 24, 2013, 01:08:06 PM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.
In Russian, the Catholics, i.e. us, are Соборни or Вселенски.  The католики are foreigners, to Russia and the Church.

Telling the Vatican had to appropriate a Greek term to try to call itself.  The Greeks aren't fooled: you are φρανκοι.
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« Reply #197 on: June 24, 2013, 01:09:19 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them. Thank God Cortez replaced human sacrifice with the Mass. Spanish America is a quarter of my heritage.
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« Reply #198 on: June 24, 2013, 01:13:20 PM »

The Greeks aren't fooled: you are φρανκοι.

Φράγκοι actually. But παπισται, καθολικοί and ουνίτες seem to be more popular nowadays. Or at least those are the terms employed in those belligerent pamphlets that are published by the Greek theological brotherhoods.
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« Reply #199 on: June 24, 2013, 01:14:01 PM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.
In Russian, the Catholics, i.e. us, are Соборни or Вселенски.  The католики are foreigners, to Russia and the Church.

Telling the Vatican had to appropriate a Greek term to try to call itself.  The Greeks aren't fooled: you are φρανκοι.

Nobody gets into a Russian cab and asks to go to the соборная or вселенская церковь. Nor asks an Athens cabbie to take him to the Frankish Church.
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« Reply #200 on: June 24, 2013, 01:15:16 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them.
and yet the Spanish used Nahuatl' (the Aztecs' language) for their seminary system for the natives.
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« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2013, 01:16:22 PM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.
In Russian, the Catholics, i.e. us, are Соборни or Вселенски.  The католики are foreigners, to Russia and the Church.

Telling the Vatican had to appropriate a Greek term to try to call itself.  The Greeks aren't fooled: you are φρανκοι.

Nobody gets into a Russian cab and asks to go to the соборная or вселенская церковь. Nor asks an Athens cabbie to take him to the Frankish Church.
You stating that from experience, or conjecture?

Of course, if you are letting a cabby pick your church, you have other problems.
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« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2013, 01:16:45 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them.
and yet the Spanish used Nahuatl' (the Aztecs' language) for their seminary system for the natives.

That they had a seminary system for them shows they weren't evil.
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« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2013, 01:17:58 PM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.
In Russian, the Catholics, i.e. us, are Соборни or Вселенски.  The католики are foreigners, to Russia and the Church.

Telling the Vatican had to appropriate a Greek term to try to call itself.  The Greeks aren't fooled: you are φρανκοι.

Nobody gets into a Russian cab and asks to go to the соборная or вселенская церковь. Nor asks an Athens cabbie to take him to the Frankish Church.
You stating that from experience, or conjecture.

Of course, if you are letting a cabby pick your church, you have other problems.

Conjecture. What's your experience in Greece or Russia, if any? The Russians I used to know would have rightly thought this semantic game was silly.
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« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2013, 01:19:11 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them.
and yet the Spanish used Nahuatl' (the Aztecs' language) for their seminary system for the natives.

That they had a seminary system for them shows they weren't evil.
Mao had quite a (re)education system.
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« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2013, 01:21:05 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them. Thank God Cortez replaced human sacrifice with the Mass. Spanish America is a quarter of my heritage.

Well, you WERE the one to bring up the topic.  Don't start bragging about your "evangelism" if you don't want someone to raise an eyebrow at it.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2013, 01:26:39 PM »


That said, as I've learned from talking to people whose families lived it, because this event is still in living memory, the truth was this. Until about 80 years ago, Ruthenians were Catholic but didn't strongly identify as such, at least among the laity. Church was familial and ethnic; po-nashomu, 'our way'. So although their church had lots of Western Catholic stuff adopted over the years, they didn't see themselves in sectarian or jurisdictional terms.

The people and especially the priests, who were of course schooled in theology by the Catholic Church, so they felt more Catholic, didn't really want to leave. The priests tried several times to appeal to Rome. All the priests and people really wanted was for things to stay the same. A conservative Slavic trait.

The Greeks gave them a good deal, pretty much giving them what they wanted, to be left alone to do what they'd always done. So by their own admission they didn't so much 'return home' or 'convert to Orthodoxy' as 'turn' to Orthodoxy as a refuge to protect their patrimony: po-nashomu, latinizations and all.

Not exactly what Conciliar Press or Ancient Faith Radio wants to hear.

I have never read any publication of Conciliar Press and the total amount of time I've listenened to AFR probably doesn't exceed ten minutes but yes, I don't think that those Slavic coal miners in the Rust Belt had much of an opinion on the filioque or palamism. But should that really matter?
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« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2013, 01:28:39 PM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.
In Russian, the Catholics, i.e. us, are Соборни or Вселенски.  The католики are foreigners, to Russia and the Church.

Telling the Vatican had to appropriate a Greek term to try to call itself.  The Greeks aren't fooled: you are φρανκοι.

Nobody gets into a Russian cab and asks to go to the соборная or вселенская церковь. Nor asks an Athens cabbie to take him to the Frankish Church.
You stating that from experience, or conjecture.

Of course, if you are letting a cabby pick your church, you have other problems.

Conjecture. What's your experience in Greece or Russia, if any? The Russians I used to know would have rightly thought this semantic game was silly.
Have them recite the Creed, and see how silly that pesky clause is.  Especially since you initiated this semantic game.  As for myself, I can't speak to the inexactitude in the speech of others.

Never been to Russia yet, unfortunately.  Been to Greece, but I don't recall ever using a cab.  Nor would I have any use for a φραγκη church-yes, that is what they call them, when they are not calling them παπιστη-although I have been to two in Greece (which is close to 100%).  We call them كاثوليكية, we call the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church جامعية (and yes, the former is foreign term, the latter native).
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« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2013, 01:33:02 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them.
and yet the Spanish used Nahuatl' (the Aztecs' language) for their seminary system for the natives.

That they had a seminary system for them shows they weren't evil.
Mao had quite a (re)education system.

Gotcha. If we don't teach the natives, we're evil; if we teach the natives, we're evil. Because anything white males do is wrong.
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« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2013, 01:36:07 PM »

Stop playing the race card.

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« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2013, 01:37:17 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them.
and yet the Spanish used Nahuatl' (the Aztecs' language) for their seminary system for the natives.

That they had a seminary system for them shows they weren't evil.
Mao had quite a (re)education system.

Gotcha. If we don't teach the natives, we're evil; if we teach the natives, we're evil. Because anything white males do is wrong.

What are you going on about this whole white male's guilt?   That has nothing to do with anything. Perhaps your statment would be more correct if you said:  If we don't teach the natives we are wrong.  If we slaughter the natives and forcibly opress them in the name of our religion, we are also wrong.  You do realize there are other options, right?
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« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2013, 01:38:13 PM »

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

If you got all that from my one-liner, I don't think you got it from my one-liner.  Tongue

I can't speak for China and Japan, nor did I address Latin America.  But it's a fact that the Portuguese missionaries took what was a single Church in India, with an unbroken history of over fifteen hundred years, and divided it through "Uniate" tactics (including, in addition to the usual, the translation/implementation of the Roman Missal into Syriac as a stepping stone for Latin), force of weapons, terrorism (e.g., the "mysterious" disappearance of every bishop we requested from the Middle East as soon as he arrived on our shores, followed some time later by the discovery of his corpse, drowned, washed up on the shore), book burnings, confiscation of properties, fabrication of legends (e.g., that when the Portuguese landed, the Christians asked for the name of the "bishop in Rome who wears white" because they had no knowledge of his name to include it in their Masses, but they always prayed for him because they were "under him", etc.), judicious use of resources to "buy" converts, and so on.  By the time the British arrived in India to gift us with Protestantism, we were already divided and ripe for more.  And it's the gift that keeps on giving...  

If the Aztecs were horrible, they were horrible, I don't know one way or another about that history...Apocalypto was enough to make me glad that I wasn't around those parts.  And I think people abandoning the worship of idols and false gods for the sake of Christ is always a good thing.  But the actual Indians, as opposed to what the European explorers thought were Indians, were not such a violent, godless people.  They already had the gospel, the Scriptures, the sacraments, apostolic succession, the orthodox faith, etc.  But the Europeans were not much better in their treatment of this group than they were with actual heathens.  I'm not one to make leftist screeds against dead white males.  I have love and respect for many white males, dead or alive.  I love the dead white men that helped found the USA, for example.  I just have no love for the dead white men that raped my Church and abandoned her to deal with the results, and blamed her for it.  
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« Reply #212 on: June 24, 2013, 01:41:20 PM »

The pre-Portuguese Church in India wasn't Orthodox - Oriental or Eastern - but Nestorian iirc.
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« Reply #213 on: June 24, 2013, 01:45:36 PM »

Catholicism...tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.

Not the best example to bring up, unless "tried" and "to evangelize" are euphemisms for ecclesioterrorism.  

I'm not saying the conquistadors, colonizers in India, et al. were saints but again I feel like I'm reading some lefty academic's screed against dead white males.

By the way the Aztecs were horrible; the other natives hated them.
and yet the Spanish used Nahuatl' (the Aztecs' language) for their seminary system for the natives.

That they had a seminary system for them shows they weren't evil.
Mao had quite a (re)education system.

Gotcha. If we don't teach the natives, we're evil; if we teach the natives, we're evil. Because anything white males do is wrong.
especially white alpha males. we can put up with the betas though.
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« Reply #214 on: June 24, 2013, 01:54:00 PM »

Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.

Ukraine was under the Patriarchate of Constantinople even before the schism.

Yes, as it remained throughout the Middle Ages until the Union of Brest-Litovsk. It was the Kiev metropolia, arguably the main see of Russian Christianity all that time, before the rise of Moscow. A whole Particular Church, as Catholicism says, that came back to the fullness of the church, given Catholicism's doctrine about the papacy. Orthodox opinion, of course, sees it as the opposite, that they left the true church.

No, the views on the UoBL aren't opposite. Both sides know that it wasn't a matter of "a whole Particular Church" switching sides ... though not for lacking of trying by the promoters of the union  Embarrassed.
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« Reply #215 on: June 24, 2013, 01:54:46 PM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.

Of course the Orthodox say that; only makes sense given your doctrine. (Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.)

Not really the same. ACROD wasn't a new uniatism; it was more like getting out of the uniatist-agreement that their ancestors had accepted.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

And that, to me, as you doubtless can imagine, is unspeakably sad.

I'd say it's mixed: definitely the leaving/pushing-out is sad (and btw I quite agree with you that our fellow churchmen were the ones to blame); but we can be joyful of the fact that nowadays (unlike 4 centuries ago) we (Catholics) don't feel the need to grab them, tear them away from Orthodoxy, and make them become Catholic.
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« Reply #216 on: June 24, 2013, 02:22:05 PM »

The pre-Portuguese Church in India wasn't Orthodox - Oriental or Eastern - but Nestorian iirc.

Not exactly.  The West Syriac liturgical rite entered India in the 16th century, prior to that it was the East Syriac liturgical rite that was in use.  But just as in other parts of the Christian world "Orthodox" and "heretics" used the same or similar liturgical rites, it was the same in Persia.  There was an Orthodox "Church of the East" as well as the "Nestorian" one, both using the East Syriac rite.  There are extant sources in India (the ones the Portuguese didn't manage to destroy) which give the impression that, perhaps, the Church in India may have had representatives of both sides.  But to what extent this actually was the case, or what the actual allegiance of the Church there was before the Portuguese arrived, I don't know if anyone can really know for sure. 

The Church in India was basically "independent".  When there were no more Indian bishops (St Thomas ordained some, but that line eventually died out), Persian bishops provided pastoral care for the Christians there, though local administration was done internally.  When the Portuguese came to India and we needed Orthodox bishops to help us, it's interesting to note that they (the indigenous Christians) appealed for help not only from the Orthodox Persians, but also to the Orthodox Syrians and the Alexandrians (Copts).  Help eventually came from Antioch, and along with that the West Syrian rite.  If they were really "Nestorian", I don't know that they would've gone to Alexandria for help.  There's enough to make me think that they were Orthodox using the Persian rite, and not "Nestorians".  To what extent the Church in India, being so far away from the rest of "traditional Christianity", even knew or cared as much about the theological divides as did Mediterranean peoples, is another question.       
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« Reply #217 on: June 24, 2013, 02:31:33 PM »

The pre-Portuguese Church in India wasn't Orthodox - Oriental or Eastern - but Nestorian iirc.

Not exactly.  The West Syriac liturgical rite entered India in the 16th century, prior to that it was the East Syriac liturgical rite that was in use.  But just as in other parts of the Christian world "Orthodox" and "heretics" used the same or similar liturgical rites, it was the same in Persia.  There was an Orthodox "Church of the East" as well as the "Nestorian" one, both using the East Syriac rite.  There are extant sources in India (the ones the Portuguese didn't manage to destroy) which give the impression that, perhaps, the Church in India may have had representatives of both sides.  But to what extent this actually was the case, or what the actual allegiance of the Church there was before the Portuguese arrived, I don't know if anyone can really know for sure. 

The Church in India was basically "independent".  When there were no more Indian bishops (St Thomas ordained some, but that line eventually died out), Persian bishops provided pastoral care for the Christians there, though local administration was done internally.  When the Portuguese came to India and we needed Orthodox bishops to help us, it's interesting to note that they (the indigenous Christians) appealed for help not only from the Orthodox Persians, but also to the Orthodox Syrians and the Alexandrians (Copts).  Help eventually came from Antioch, and along with that the West Syrian rite.  If they were really "Nestorian", I don't know that they would've gone to Alexandria for help.  There's enough to make me think that they were Orthodox using the Persian rite, and not "Nestorians".  To what extent the Church in India, being so far away from the rest of "traditional Christianity", even knew or cared as much about the theological divides as did Mediterranean peoples, is another question.       

Thanks! Interesting stuff.
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« Reply #218 on: June 24, 2013, 03:54:27 PM »

Isn't the catechumenate meant to turn heretics, however you define that, into true believers? So the priest in Stanley's story was stupid from the Orthodox point of view. I thought they wanted individual Catholics to convert.

Stereotypes are such because they're usually true.
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« Reply #219 on: June 24, 2013, 04:15:27 PM »


That said, as I've learned from talking to people whose families lived it, because this event is still in living memory, the truth was this. Until about 80 years ago, Ruthenians were Catholic but didn't strongly identify as such, at least among the laity. Church was familial and ethnic; po-nashomu, 'our way'. So although their church had lots of Western Catholic stuff adopted over the years, they didn't see themselves in sectarian or jurisdictional terms.

The people and especially the priests, who were of course schooled in theology by the Catholic Church, so they felt more Catholic, didn't really want to leave. The priests tried several times to appeal to Rome. All the priests and people really wanted was for things to stay the same. A conservative Slavic trait.

The Greeks gave them a good deal, pretty much giving them what they wanted, to be left alone to do what they'd always done. So by their own admission they didn't so much 'return home' or 'convert to Orthodoxy' as 'turn' to Orthodoxy as a refuge to protect their patrimony: po-nashomu, latinizations and all.

Not exactly what Conciliar Press or Ancient Faith Radio wants to hear.

I have never read any publication of Conciliar Press and the total amount of time I've listenened to AFR probably doesn't exceed ten minutes but yes, I don't think that those Slavic coal miners in the Rust Belt had much of an opinion on the filioque or palamism. But should that really matter?

Good observation. That did not matter a whit.

They knew what they were.

They knew that in the old country they were NOT  Roman Catholics.

Many villages had both varieties and little if any interaction between them. They knew (if my experience is typical and I believe it is) that despite the "benefits" and "promises" of the Unia, neither their priests nor their bishops occupied the same level of societal status as did the Roman Catholic counterparts under either the Austro-Hungarians or the Poles.

They regarded their faith as being unbroken lineally with that of their  ancestors back to their first conversion some nine hundred years previous to their era. A time prior to the Great Schism.

They were shocked to observe in the new world that despite what they learned in American citizenship class, they had experienced LESS interference with their faith - "nas(h) virnyj" (our Faith) under the hated Magyar or Polish overlords than from the Irish American Catholic hierarchy.

But, they also learned in civics class that in America they could (theoretically) worship in peace. So they turned (not returned) to the Orthodox, first to the Russians, later to the Greeks, for protection to be and remain what they always were. This is theology of the heart, there was time enough for systemic theology down the road.

For 300 years Rome more or less kept her promises. But like much which afflicts the venerable Church of Rome, her position "evolved." So, in order to satisfy the Orthodox of her ecumenical sincerity, Rome, to quote Desi Arnez, has some " 'splainin to do." That why we view Rome's treatment of her sincere and loyal Eastern Catholics regarding celibacy as a "church dividing issue."
 
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« Reply #220 on: June 24, 2013, 04:17:49 PM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.

Of course the Orthodox say that; only makes sense given your doctrine. (Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.)

Not really the same. ACROD wasn't a new uniatism; it was more like getting out of the uniatist-agreement that their ancestors had accepted.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

And that, to me, as you doubtless can imagine, is unspeakably sad.

I'd say it's mixed: definitely the leaving/pushing-out is sad (and btw I quite agree with you that our fellow churchmen were the ones to blame); but we can be joyful of the fact that nowadays (unlike 4 centuries ago) we (Catholics) don't feel the need to grab them, tear them away from Orthodoxy, and make them become Catholic.

Thank you Peter. You get it.
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« Reply #221 on: June 24, 2013, 04:19:03 PM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.

Of course the Orthodox say that; only makes sense given your doctrine. (Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.)

Not really the same. ACROD wasn't a new uniatism; it was more like getting out of the uniatist-agreement that their ancestors had accepted.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

And that, to me, as you doubtless can imagine, is unspeakably sad.

I'd say it's mixed: definitely the leaving/pushing-out is sad (and btw I quite agree with you that our fellow churchmen were the ones to blame); but we can be joyful of the fact that nowadays (unlike 4 centuries ago) we (Catholics) don't feel the need to grab them, tear them away from Orthodoxy, and make them become Catholic.
Never heard of Interwar Poland and its "Revindication Campaigns" I see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia_Experiment#Cancellation_of_the_Volhynia_Experiment

More examples from then to "nowadays" could be provided, but the point that we don't have to reach back a century, let alone 4, to make that point suffices.

Tear them away from Orthodoxy, and you make them non-Catholic.
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« Reply #222 on: June 24, 2013, 05:10:40 PM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

Not a knock on ethnic born Orthodox, but on the anti-Western Westerners who try to ape them.

Second-, third-, and fourth-generation American Orthodox are Americans. They'd know where it comes from.

Not sure if you are refering to the guy in my parish, but that is an AWFUL lot of assuming to make about some guy who you have never met...

But continue on with your theories.  There could be another explanation of course. Maybe God is drawing people to His Church.  I'm sure that is too simplistic of an explanation though, so we can go with yours.   Sad

Haven't you heard? White middle-class males can only be devoutly religious if they want to be in a bourgeois, "high church" traditionalist Catholic fantasy. Otherwise they are "exotic" and "hipsters" for joining Orthodoxy with all its elements that traditional Catholicism doesn't have, like incense and foreign languages.
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« Reply #223 on: June 24, 2013, 05:24:57 PM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.

Of course the Orthodox say that; only makes sense given your doctrine. (Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.)

Not really the same. ACROD wasn't a new uniatism; it was more like getting out of the uniatist-agreement that their ancestors had accepted.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

And that, to me, as you doubtless can imagine, is unspeakably sad.

I'd say it's mixed: definitely the leaving/pushing-out is sad (and btw I quite agree with you that our fellow churchmen were the ones to blame); but we can be joyful of the fact that nowadays (unlike 4 centuries ago) we (Catholics) don't feel the need to grab them, tear them away from Orthodoxy, and make them become Catholic.
Never heard of Interwar Poland and its "Revindication Campaigns" I see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia_Experiment#Cancellation_of_the_Volhynia_Experiment

More examples from then to "nowadays" could be provided, but the point that we don't have to reach back a century, let alone 4, to make that point suffices.

Alright. I was just talking about our lack of proselytizing post-Vatican II.

Tear them away from Orthodoxy, and you make them non-Catholic.

Yes, yes, I'm familiar with all those semantics. (Of course I could have said "become Eastern Catholic" but I don't think you would like that any better.)
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« Reply #224 on: June 24, 2013, 06:21:28 PM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.

Of course the Orthodox say that; only makes sense given your doctrine. (Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.)

Not really the same. ACROD wasn't a new uniatism; it was more like getting out of the uniatist-agreement that their ancestors had accepted.

But in his dream, he would have Pope John XXIII come to my grandfather and say, "Come home, Joe." My grandfather would reply, "You go your way, Janku, I go mine!"

And that, to me, as you doubtless can imagine, is unspeakably sad.

I'd say it's mixed: definitely the leaving/pushing-out is sad (and btw I quite agree with you that our fellow churchmen were the ones to blame); but we can be joyful of the fact that nowadays (unlike 4 centuries ago) we (Catholics) don't feel the need to grab them, tear them away from Orthodoxy, and make them become Catholic.
Never heard of Interwar Poland and its "Revindication Campaigns" I see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia_Experiment#Cancellation_of_the_Volhynia_Experiment

More examples from then to "nowadays" could be provided, but the point that we don't have to reach back a century, let alone 4, to make that point suffices.

Alright. I was just talking about our lack of proselytizing post-Vatican II.
And I was just talking about your lack of a lack of proselytizing post-Vatican II, though the specific example I gave predates it a little.

Tear them away from Orthodoxy, and you make them non-Catholic.

Yes, yes, I'm familiar with all those semantics. (Of course I could have said "become Eastern Catholic" but I don't think you would like that any better.)
Catholic is Catholic, East or West(ern Rite Orthodox).
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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