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Author Topic: Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians  (Read 11861 times) Average Rating: 0
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The young fogey
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« Reply #135 on: June 21, 2013, 07:46:44 AM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.
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« Reply #136 on: June 21, 2013, 08:51:55 AM »

It's pretty much because of attitudes expressed in this thread (for example) that I decided to remain Catholic. I do love the Orthodox Churches I've attended but even there, I've had to deal with so many people like "James" that I don't think I'd have the energy to do it on a regular basis. I'd always feel the need to defend the Catholic Church from unfair attacks, even if I left it. So I think I'll just stay where I am and keep asking God for mercy.  Wink

Well then, I am very sorry for you if this is truly the case as you describe it here.  It seems that you are letting bad Orthodox like us on this forum define your experience of Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Christianity in general.  If you are convinced that remaining in communion with Rome is the right thing to do, then surely it should come from a much more "positive" place in your heart than one that says "there are such uncharitable Orthodox here and there, therefore I will just stay where I am."  I think each one of us has the duty to ask ourselves "who is Christ?" all the time.  What would the Living God of the Gospel have to say about this or that ecclesial situation and our relation to it?  Christ said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."  Are we truly struggling to follow that Way, Truth and Life in Him who is Love every day, or are we following an idol of our own creation, that is not the Living God?  I think every Christian of whatever ecclesial affiliation has to keep this before them at all times.  Forgive me, but I think to do less is to cop out; it is deciding to be spiritually lazy or dishonest.  I am not saying that God does not meet us where we are in His great mercy, or that moving from one Church to another is an easy thing to do or that you don't have other good reasons for doing what you do.  But please don't let your church life be defined by how some crazy sinner like me behaves, that is just wrong.
What you say may be the ideal situation, but many people respond favorably to charity. What Catholic would want to join a Church where the priest screams that you and all Catholics are heretics? Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

As the son,brother, Godson, friend of many and father of a future Orthodox priest, I take offense at your ridiculous stereotyping of our clergy.

I am sure that countless here can share anecdotes of idiotic behavior by Roman Catholics priests, but I would never castigate them or the Roman Church as a group on account of the same.

I don't know what jurisdiction you dealt with but I know what I would do. I would smile, tell him he is in my prayers and I would let his Bishop know in no uncertain terms that his priest is (mild profanity edited out) a pompous jerk lacking in pastoral ability. I've done that and the man in question is no longer under that bishop's omophor. (Just like you Catholics, we, too, play musical dioceses with problematic clergy. With us it's also jurisdiction hopping. "Let him be someone else's problem" is a typical human reaction.)

Of course, if he were from a jurisdiction which regards other Orthodox in a similar "light", such a letter to the Bishop would likely earn him a gold cross.
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« Reply #137 on: June 21, 2013, 09:20:13 AM »

Isn't the catechumenate meant to turn heretics, however you define that, into true believers? So the priest in Stanley's story was stupid from the Orthodox point of view. I thought they wanted individual Catholics to convert.

Stereotypes are such because they're usually true.
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« Reply #138 on: June 21, 2013, 09:31:38 AM »

Isn't the catechumenate meant to turn heretics, however you define that, into true believers? So the priest in Stanley's story was stupid from the Orthodox point of view. I thought they wanted individual Catholics to convert.

Well, definitely stupid if the aforementioned "adult catechism class" was a catechumens' class. I'll leave it for Stanley to elaborate on what he meant.
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« Reply #139 on: June 21, 2013, 09:32:26 AM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

There are three answers. First, to my hosts: there is the textbook Orthodox position, like Catholicism's true-church claim. Simply that Orthodoxy is the true Catholic Church and Catholicism's not. Second, there's the ecumenical Orthodox opinion, something like Catholicism's recognition of Orthodox orders so one can speak of a great Catholic family of churches. Third, there's Catholicism: born Orthodox are neither Protestants nor personally guilty of schism, so Orthodoxy's an estranged Catholicism; the church accepts but doesn't solicit individual conversions of born Orthodox anymore.

I believe that post Conciliar Roman Catholic theologians have gone beyond the relatively simplistic emphasis on catholicity as described above in their consultations with the Orthodox.  Rather, they have health with the Apostolic nature of both the local Roman communion and the Churches of the Orthodox:

"12. In the Eastern churches there has frequently been an emphasis on the fullness of each church's apostolicity and, indeed, "petrinity," and there has been criticism of the Roman Church, for tending to localize these qualities in a single see. The Roman Church, on the other hand, has strongly emphasized the need to express the unity of the Church's apostolic faith through concrete structures and practice and has criticized the Eastern churches for losing sight of this need. Such differences of approach should not, however, be presented as evidence of an irreducible opposition between "local church" and "universal church." This dilemma is an artificial one which arises at least in part when we are unwilling to see the same qualities present in both the local and the universal, albeit realized in different ways. The image of Peter within the apostolic college is reflected in the life of each local church; it is also reflected in the visible communion of all the local churches. There is no intrinsic opposition between these two approaches."

http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/apostolicity.html
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« Reply #140 on: June 21, 2013, 09:37:13 AM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

To quote myself:

I have no reason to leave the Catholic Church, although I have every reason to be in the Orthodox Church.

This is only true if you equate the Vatican confession with "the Catholic Church."

Your fellow Orthodox have told us not to use "Roman Catholic", or at any rate not to include Eastern Catholics in that designation.

As I've written, theologically,the East is a kind of Catholicism; the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs are the Catholicos. But in Moscow and Athens, if you asked a cabbie to take you to the nearest Catholic church, he would not take you to the nearest Orthodox church. In Russian, Russians are православные; католики are foreigners.

To be honest, I assumed that WPM meant the same as FatherHLL's post that I quoted, but I really don't know for sure.
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« Reply #141 on: June 21, 2013, 10:29:58 AM »

I thought the Orthodox Church was already Catholic

But of Course...!
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« Reply #142 on: June 21, 2013, 04:04:21 PM »

It's pretty much because of attitudes expressed in this thread (for example) that I decided to remain Catholic. I do love the Orthodox Churches I've attended but even there, I've had to deal with so many people like "James" that I don't think I'd have the energy to do it on a regular basis. I'd always feel the need to defend the Catholic Church from unfair attacks, even if I left it. So I think I'll just stay where I am and keep asking God for mercy.  Wink

Well then, I am very sorry for you if this is truly the case as you describe it here.  It seems that you are letting bad Orthodox like us on this forum define your experience of Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Christianity in general.  If you are convinced that remaining in communion with Rome is the right thing to do, then surely it should come from a much more "positive" place in your heart than one that says "there are such uncharitable Orthodox here and there, therefore I will just stay where I am."  I think each one of us has the duty to ask ourselves "who is Christ?" all the time.  What would the Living God of the Gospel have to say about this or that ecclesial situation and our relation to it?  Christ said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."  Are we truly struggling to follow that Way, Truth and Life in Him who is Love every day, or are we following an idol of our own creation, that is not the Living God?  I think every Christian of whatever ecclesial affiliation has to keep this before them at all times.  Forgive me, but I think to do less is to cop out; it is deciding to be spiritually lazy or dishonest.  I am not saying that God does not meet us where we are in His great mercy, or that moving from one Church to another is an easy thing to do or that you don't have other good reasons for doing what you do.  But please don't let your church life be defined by how some crazy sinner like me behaves, that is just wrong.
What you say may be the ideal situation, but many people respond favorably to charity. What Catholic would want to join a Church where the priest screams that you and all Catholics are heretics? Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

As the son,brother, Godson, friend of many and father of a future Orthodox priest, I take offense at your ridiculous stereotyping of our clergy.

I am sure that countless here can share anecdotes of idiotic behavior by Roman Catholics priests, but I would never castigate them or the Roman Church as a group on account of the same.

I don't know what jurisdiction you dealt with but I know what I would do. I would smile, tell him he is in my prayers and I would let his Bishop know in no uncertain terms that his priest is (mild profanity edited out) a pompous jerk lacking in pastoral ability. I've done that and the man in question is no longer under that bishop's omophor. (Just like you Catholics, we, too, play musical dioceses with problematic clergy. With us it's also jurisdiction hopping. "Let him be someone else's problem" is a typical human reaction.)

Of course, if he were from a jurisdiction which regards other Orthodox in a similar "light", such a letter to the Bishop would likely earn him a gold cross.
This was not a stereotype, but one particular case, which shocked me.  Of course, there are many Orthodox, lay and clergy who show charity toward non-Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #143 on: June 21, 2013, 05:55:34 PM »

"Bridges" = Ecumenical heresy.

I don't even walk or drive over bridges in general, because they're symbols of evil ecumenists.
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« Reply #144 on: June 21, 2013, 06:02:29 PM »

"Bridges" = Ecumenical heresy.

I've been wondering what this so-called Pan-Heresy of Ecumenism really means since it doesn't seem to have any coherent contet. Thanks for clearing this up. It means bridges.
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« Reply #145 on: June 21, 2013, 06:05:22 PM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
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« Reply #146 on: June 21, 2013, 09:32:22 PM »

It's pretty much because of attitudes expressed in this thread (for example) that I decided to remain Catholic. I do love the Orthodox Churches I've attended but even there, I've had to deal with so many people like "James" that I don't think I'd have the energy to do it on a regular basis. I'd always feel the need to defend the Catholic Church from unfair attacks, even if I left it. So I think I'll just stay where I am and keep asking God for mercy.  Wink

Well then, I am very sorry for you if this is truly the case as you describe it here.  It seems that you are letting bad Orthodox like us on this forum define your experience of Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Christianity in general.  If you are convinced that remaining in communion with Rome is the right thing to do, then surely it should come from a much more "positive" place in your heart than one that says "there are such uncharitable Orthodox here and there, therefore I will just stay where I am."  I think each one of us has the duty to ask ourselves "who is Christ?" all the time.  What would the Living God of the Gospel have to say about this or that ecclesial situation and our relation to it?  Christ said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."  Are we truly struggling to follow that Way, Truth and Life in Him who is Love every day, or are we following an idol of our own creation, that is not the Living God?  I think every Christian of whatever ecclesial affiliation has to keep this before them at all times.  Forgive me, but I think to do less is to cop out; it is deciding to be spiritually lazy or dishonest.  I am not saying that God does not meet us where we are in His great mercy, or that moving from one Church to another is an easy thing to do or that you don't have other good reasons for doing what you do.  But please don't let your church life be defined by how some crazy sinner like me behaves, that is just wrong.
What you say may be the ideal situation, but many people respond favorably to charity. What Catholic would want to join a Church where the priest screams that you and all Catholics are heretics? Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

As the son,brother, Godson, friend of many and father of a future Orthodox priest, I take offense at your ridiculous stereotyping of our clergy.

I am sure that countless here can share anecdotes of idiotic behavior by Roman Catholics priests, but I would never castigate them or the Roman Church as a group on account of the same.

I don't know what jurisdiction you dealt with but I know what I would do. I would smile, tell him he is in my prayers and I would let his Bishop know in no uncertain terms that his priest is (mild profanity edited out) a pompous jerk lacking in pastoral ability. I've done that and the man in question is no longer under that bishop's omophor. (Just like you Catholics, we, too, play musical dioceses with problematic clergy. With us it's also jurisdiction hopping. "Let him be someone else's problem" is a typical human reaction.)

Of course, if he were from a jurisdiction which regards other Orthodox in a similar "light", such a letter to the Bishop would likely earn him a gold cross.
This was not a stereotype, but one particular case, which shocked me.

I thought all complainers generalize?
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« Reply #147 on: June 21, 2013, 10:22:30 PM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 
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« Reply #148 on: June 21, 2013, 10:36:11 PM »

"Bridges" = Ecumenical heresy.

I don't even walk or drive over bridges in general, because they're symbols of evil ecumenists.
Is there a difference among Orthodox about building bridges to non-Orthodox groups? For example, are the Antiochan Orthodox somewhat less inclined to ecumenical encounters than say the Greek or Romanian?
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« Reply #149 on: June 21, 2013, 10:59:57 PM »

"Bridges" = Ecumenical heresy.

I don't even walk or drive over bridges in general, because they're symbols of evil ecumenists.
Is there a difference among Orthodox about building bridges to non-Orthodox groups? For example, are the Antiochan Orthodox somewhat less inclined to ecumenical encounters than say the Greek or Romanian?
i'd say it breaks down nicely between Orthodox on message boards who think they're theologians and Orthodox in the real world just doing their best to serve God.
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« Reply #150 on: June 21, 2013, 11:38:24 PM »

"Bridges" = Ecumenical heresy.

I've been wondering what this so-called Pan-Heresy of Ecumenism really means since it doesn't seem to have any coherent contet. Thanks for clearing this up. It means bridges.

No bridges? People of Pittsburgh: you are so screwed.   Wink
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« Reply #151 on: June 24, 2013, 05:43:59 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 

Ah ... I guess the implication is that he sees you as a committed heretic.
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« Reply #152 on: June 24, 2013, 05:45:03 AM »

Anti-Catholic hardline Orthodox making fun of the Carpatho-Russians for their longtime latinizations and saying the Carpatho-Russians weren't really Orthodox because of them.

To be honest, I think the conflation of "Orthodoxy" with "Eastern-ness" is one of the things that troubles me most about Orthodoxy. (Not that I would necessarily become Orthodox in any case; I'm just saying.)

Yep.

Easternness in itself is great, but the anti-Westernism is a big turnoff. Catholicism doesn't tell Easterners to hate their heritage but rather to keep it (this is not always followed). Orthodoxy's obviously so conflicted about Westernness. (Western = you're not part of our empire = you're not the true church.) Its little Western Rite experiment usually gets as byzantinized as the Greek Catholics are self-latinized. The Antiochians' thing is more really Western and more honest about the Catholic connection. Old high Episcopalians and genuinely nice pro-Catholic folks, whom other Orthodox are suspicious of for that reason. Still, even there, the Mass is 'The Divine Liturgy of St Tikhon or St Gregory', etc. The ROCOR one's so byzantinized I don't know why they bother.

There's no doubt that latinizations of Eastern Catholics has been a tremendous handle for Orthodox to criticize Catholicism -- you know the "See? That shows us what they think of the East!" kind of rhetoric.

It's tough to know what to say about the byzantinization of WRO ...
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« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2013, 06:22:10 AM »

It's pretty much because of attitudes expressed in this thread (for example) that I decided to remain Catholic. I do love the Orthodox Churches I've attended but even there, I've had to deal with so many people like "James" that I don't think I'd have the energy to do it on a regular basis. I'd always feel the need to defend the Catholic Church from unfair attacks, even if I left it. So I think I'll just stay where I am and keep asking God for mercy.  Wink

Well then, I am very sorry for you if this is truly the case as you describe it here.  It seems that you are letting bad Orthodox like us on this forum define your experience of Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Christianity in general.  If you are convinced that remaining in communion with Rome is the right thing to do, then surely it should come from a much more "positive" place in your heart than one that says "there are such uncharitable Orthodox here and there, therefore I will just stay where I am." 

Well, it's not an exact, black-and-white syllogism; but it does basically make sense ("there are such uncharitable Orthodox here and there, therefore I will just stay where I am" is an over-simplification) and it's in keeping with what we've been told: "By their fruits you will know them."
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« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2013, 09:38:07 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 

Having taught (Roman) Catholic adult catechism classes (a.k.a. RCIA), I can understand his position. Having people there with no real desire to convert really hurts the process for those who are seeking to convert. Heck, I found having run-of-the-mill cradle Catholics present for the discussions hurt the process because they were often the worst at arguing with those of us who were simply trying to impart the "untainted" Faith!
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« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2013, 09:50:28 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 

Having taught (Roman) Catholic adult catechism classes (a.k.a. RCIA), I can understand his position. Having people there with no real desire to convert really hurts the process for those who are seeking to convert. Heck, I found having run-of-the-mill cradle Catholics present for the discussions hurt the process because they were often the worst at arguing with those of us who were simply trying to impart the "untainted" Faith!

I guess I basically agree. I just felt I needed to comment on his (the Orthodox priest's) way of putting it.
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« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2013, 09:55:53 AM »

Rather remarkable sometimes how traditional/conservative Catholics and Orthodox can relate to each other (and I guess this is one of the reasons I keep participating on this forum  Undecided) while more liberal thinkers are all How-dare-you-say-that-such-and-such-belief-is-normative-in-our-communion.
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« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2013, 10:02:41 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 
Well, I can understand why a priest would not necessarily want someone whose only reason for going to the catechumen's class was to argue with him.  I cannot speak to larger Orthodoxy, but the only people in my parish who I have ever heard making a disparaging comment towards RC are the converts from the RC tradition will sometimes call themselved recovering Catholics.  I have never heard our priest makes any disparaging comments and he sent his children to catholic school, so he must not hate them too much...
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« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2013, 10:14:54 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 
Well, I can understand why a priest would not necessarily want someone whose only reason for going to the catechumen's class was to argue with him.  I cannot speak to larger Orthodoxy, but the only people in my parish who I have ever heard making a disparaging comment towards RC are the converts from the RC tradition will sometimes call themselves recovering Catholics. 

Interesting. I've heard that phrase before (or more precisely, I saw a picture of a guy with a "Recovering Catholic" tee-shirt) but I would have associated it more with liberal ex-Catholics (probably with some mention of abuse-scandals).
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« Reply #159 on: June 24, 2013, 10:18:59 AM »

Rather remarkable sometimes how traditional/conservative Catholics and Orthodox can relate to each other (and I guess this is one of the reasons I keep participating on this forum  Undecided) while more liberal thinkers are all How-dare-you-say-that-such-and-such-belief-is-normative-in-our-communion.

Yeppers. Greeks and Russians are great. It's the anti-Western Westerners, pretending to be Eastern to look cool, who hate my guts.
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« Reply #160 on: June 24, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »

Rather remarkable sometimes how traditional/conservative Catholics and Orthodox can relate to each other (and I guess this is one of the reasons I keep participating on this forum  Undecided) while more liberal thinkers are all How-dare-you-say-that-such-and-such-belief-is-normative-in-our-communion.

But labels are usually inadequate to describe many of us. We don't all fit into a neat pigeon hole. And that priest may be unfairly maligned if he had "history" with the OP.  
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« Reply #161 on: June 24, 2013, 10:22:19 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 
Well, I can understand why a priest would not necessarily want someone whose only reason for going to the catechumen's class was to argue with him.  I cannot speak to larger Orthodoxy, but the only people in my parish who I have ever heard making a disparaging comment towards RC are the converts from the RC tradition will sometimes call themselves recovering Catholics. 

Interesting. I've heard that phrase before (or more precisely, I saw a picture of a guy with a "Recovering Catholic" tee-shirt) but I would have associated it more with liberal ex-Catholics (probably with some mention of abuse-scandals).

I never knew it was "a thing", but apparently it is.  Or at least, wikipedia says it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovering_Catholic
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« Reply #162 on: June 24, 2013, 10:23:00 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 

Well, I can understand why a priest would not necessarily want someone whose only reason for going to the catechumen's class was to argue with him.  I cannot speak to larger Orthodoxy, but the only people in my parish who I have ever heard making a disparaging comment towards RC are the converts from the RC tradition will sometimes call themselves recovering Catholics. 

Interesting. I've heard that phrase before (or more precisely, I saw a picture of a guy with a "Recovering Catholic" tee-shirt) but I would have associated it more with liberal ex-Catholics (probably with some mention of abuse-scandals).

Thank you. You beat me to that punch. That crap from our anti-Catholic, Protestant turned politically correct culture is unworthy of Orthodoxy. Real Orthodox don't talk like that.
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« Reply #163 on: June 24, 2013, 10:29:50 AM »

Such happened to me when I asked if I could join his adult catechism class, which he said was not open to heretics.

ROFL! Awesome!
He said he would make an exception if the person had the serious intention of converting, which did not fit my case. I was only interested in learning and in discussions, which perhaps may have been thought to be a bit disruptive to the class. I don't blame him, since my discussions with him were somewhat sharp. 

Well, I can understand why a priest would not necessarily want someone whose only reason for going to the catechumen's class was to argue with him.  I cannot speak to larger Orthodoxy, but the only people in my parish who I have ever heard making a disparaging comment towards RC are the converts from the RC tradition will sometimes call themselves recovering Catholics. 

Interesting. I've heard that phrase before (or more precisely, I saw a picture of a guy with a "Recovering Catholic" tee-shirt) but I would have associated it more with liberal ex-Catholics (probably with some mention of abuse-scandals).

Thank you. You beat me to that punch. That crap from our anti-Catholic, Protestant turned politically correct culture is unworthy of Orthodoxy. Real Orthodox don't talk like that.

On that, we agree.
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« Reply #164 on: June 24, 2013, 10:36:41 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).
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« Reply #165 on: June 24, 2013, 10:42:07 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.
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« Reply #166 on: June 24, 2013, 10:46:14 AM »

Interesting. I've heard that phrase before (or more precisely, I saw a picture of a guy with a "Recovering Catholic" tee-shirt) but I would have associated it more with liberal ex-Catholics (probably with some mention of abuse-scandals).

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Possibly. It was a picture in an article 10ish (?) years ago, about RC abuse scandals. So there was certainly a connection being drawn, but I don't think it specified whether that was a picture of a grown-up abuse victim.

I'm a little surprised to see (from Wiki) that the term "Recovering Catholic" has been around since the 80s. (Well, not too surprised.)
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« Reply #167 on: June 24, 2013, 10:50:46 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.
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« Reply #168 on: June 24, 2013, 10:59:19 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

Not a knock on ethnic born Orthodox, but on the anti-Western Westerners who try to ape them.

Second-, third-, and fourth-generation American Orthodox are Americans. They'd know where it comes from.
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« Reply #169 on: June 24, 2013, 11:07:12 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

Not a knock on ethnic born Orthodox, but on the anti-Western Westerners who try to ape them.

Second-, third-, and fourth-generation American Orthodox are Americans. They'd know where it comes from.

Not sure if you are refering to the guy in my parish, but that is an AWFUL lot of assuming to make about some guy who you have never met...

But continue on with your theories.  There could be another explanation of course. Maybe God is drawing people to His Church.  I'm sure that is too simplistic of an explanation though, so we can go with yours.   Sad
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« Reply #170 on: June 24, 2013, 11:12:50 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Meh ... I don't know if I would make too much of that sounds-just-like. Many things appear similar on the surface, but are really pretty different.

(Although I'll admit I was probably wrong with the not-knowing-where-it-came-from.)

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

I can't really say that fits with my experience of ex-Catholic Orthodox.

Of course, I generally don't expect ex-Catholic Orthodox to have a very positive view of Catholicism ... if they did, then why convert?
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« Reply #171 on: June 24, 2013, 11:22:04 AM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

I was going to say: there aren't that many ex-Catholic Orthodox. The convert boomlet, which seems on the wane (it's not as hip among evangelicals as it was about 10-15 years ago), was ex-evangelicals and conservative high-church ex-Episcopalians.
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« Reply #172 on: June 24, 2013, 11:25:53 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Meh ... I don't know if I would make too much of that sounds-just-like. Many things appear similar on the surface, but are really pretty different.

(Although I'll admit I was probably wrong with the not-knowing-where-it-came-from.)

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

I can't really say that fits with my experience of ex-Catholic Orthodox.

Of course, I generally don't expect ex-Catholic Orthodox to have a very positive view of Catholicism ... if they did, then why convert?

I can only speak for myself.  I converted for one reason: the role of the papacy.  There are certain "unessential" things I do as an Orthodox Christian that I feel bring me closer to God, but, in the end, it was basically Vatican I.  Kind of an "Aha!" moment that, once experienced, I could not forget nor ignore.

I'd like to think that I don't have a bone to pick with Catholicism; indeed, I'd like to think my track record here, at least, paints me as somewhat of a defender against the claims of people who have no idea what they're talking about.
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« Reply #173 on: June 24, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Meh ... I don't know if I would make too much of that sounds-just-like. Many things appear similar on the surface, but are really pretty different.

(Although I'll admit I was probably wrong with the not-knowing-where-it-came-from.)

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

I can't really say that fits with my experience of ex-Catholic Orthodox.

Of course, I generally don't expect ex-Catholic Orthodox to have a very positive view of Catholicism ... if they did, then why convert?

I can only speak for myself.  I converted for one reason: the role of the papacy.  There are certain "unessential" things I do as an Orthodox Christian that I feel bring me closer to God, but, in the end, it was basically Vatican I.  Kind of an "Aha!" moment that, once experienced, I could not forget nor ignore.

I'd like to think that I don't have a bone to pick with Catholicism; indeed, I'd like to think my track record here, at least, paints me as somewhat of a defender against the claims of people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I can respectfully disagree with you. Because that's the only real difference between the two sides. The principled old high-church Anglicans such as the Tractarians believed the same about the matter. (I really think they feared that in 150 years we'd have the opposite of what we have: the Episcopal Church would be good patristic conservatives while the Catholic Church with Commander Cuckoo Bananas in charge would have women priests, gay marriage, and unitarianism.) Sorry to see you go, but good luck.
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« Reply #174 on: June 24, 2013, 11:32:17 AM »

Well, I don't know what the guy who made the comment went through while in the RC church, so it isn't my place to call him out on it.  If he underwent physical or emotional abuse while he was RC, I can understand why he would make such a comment (not that I would endorse it, but I would understand).

Yeah, but Orthodox picking up crap like that from secular culture to take swings at Catholicism is just pathetic. Again, thank God that Greeks and Russians don't do that. They've got lives, and are just happy being Greek or Russian.

Right. Jumping on the scandal-bandwagon is just a little too popular, if you ask me.

Although I guess it should be pointed out that the Orthodox people in question may not have known it was crap from secular culture.

Right, too popular, for the wrong reason.

The people in the story using it aren't born Orthodox; they're ex-Catholics who sound just like ex-Catholics who become Episcopalians to be gay or, more common, divorced and remarried (fitting for Henry VIII's church), or just become secular.

Meh ... I don't know if I would make too much of that sounds-just-like. Many things appear similar on the surface, but are really pretty different.

(Although I'll admit I was probably wrong with the not-knowing-where-it-came-from.)

Which ties into an unflattering theory of mine about convertodoxy, that it's a manifestation of modern secular liberal America's (rich Northern whites) fetish for 'diversity', exoticism, anything but the old white America, which they call stupid and boring. ('Catholic is so ordinary, and pre-Vatican II of course was even stupider and more evil, the Pope being a Nazi and all that.') The same reason hippies flirted with Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't matter that Orthodoxy's relatively conservative; Muslims get a free pass too.

I can't really say that fits with my experience of ex-Catholic Orthodox.

Of course, I generally don't expect ex-Catholic Orthodox to have a very positive view of Catholicism ... if they did, then why convert?

I can only speak for myself.  I converted for one reason: the role of the papacy.  There are certain "unessential" things I do as an Orthodox Christian that I feel bring me closer to God, but, in the end, it was basically Vatican I.  Kind of an "Aha!" moment that, once experienced, I could not forget nor ignore.

I'd like to think that I don't have a bone to pick with Catholicism; indeed, I'd like to think my track record here, at least, paints me as somewhat of a defender against the claims of people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I agree with Schultz and I view my role here in much the same way. Having a "foot in both worlds" gives one a different pov. Sometimes a myopic one, but I think in most cases a broader view. My family's bone to pick was likewise the result of Vatican One and its misapplication of, and defining in explicit terms, the role of the Papacy.

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« Reply #175 on: June 24, 2013, 11:42:55 AM »

I agree with Schultz and I view my role here in much the same way. Having a "foot in both worlds" gives one a different pov. Sometimes a myopic one, but I think in most cases a broader view. My family's bone to pick was likewise the result of Vatican One and its misapplication of, and defining in explicit terms, the role of the Papacy.

It sure does. So did your family recently decide Vatican I isn't true and convert (possible), or are you Slavic so your family was part of the ACROD split?  (Which never should have happened, was nothing to do with doctrine, and was our own churchmen's fault. Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.)
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« Reply #176 on: June 24, 2013, 11:53:01 AM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.
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« Reply #177 on: June 24, 2013, 12:11:19 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.
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« Reply #178 on: June 24, 2013, 12:17:32 PM »

Come home, ACROD – I love you and miss you.

ACROD returned home.

Of course the Orthodox say that; only makes sense given your doctrine. (Like we'd say the Ukrainian Catholic Church returned.)

That said, as I've learned from talking to people whose families lived it, because this event is still in living memory, the truth was this. Until about 80 years ago, Ruthenians were Catholic but didn't strongly identify as such, at least among the laity. Church was familial and ethnic; po-nashomu, 'our way'. So although their church had lots of Western Catholic stuff adopted over the years, they didn't see themselves in sectarian or jurisdictional terms.

The people and especially the priests, who were of course schooled in theology by the Catholic Church, so they felt more Catholic, didn't really want to leave. The priests tried several times to appeal to Rome. All the priests and people really wanted was for things to stay the same. A conservative Slavic trait.

The Greeks gave them a good deal, pretty much giving them what they wanted, to be left alone to do what they'd always done. So by their own admission they didn't so much 'return home' or 'convert to Orthodoxy' as 'turn' to Orthodoxy as a refuge to protect their patrimony: po-nashomu, latinizations and all.

Not exactly what Conciliar Press or Ancient Faith Radio wants to hear.
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« Reply #179 on: June 24, 2013, 12:21:27 PM »

I can't buy that the true faith would be landlocked in Eastern Europe for 300+ years. Orthodoxy will never be a majority here. Catholicism almost got there.

If one accepts that Roman Catholicism is the true religion one has to accept that the true faith was limited to Western Europe for 500 years.

Catholicism missionized South America and, to a lesser degree, North America, becoming America's biggest single church, and tried to evangelize the African countries (with some success), China, Japan, and India.

Your move.
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