Author Topic: Being gay is a choice?  (Read 9108 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Being gay is a choice?
« on: April 30, 2013, 04:42:14 PM »
Why is that said? Do people believe that you can choose to be gay or straight?

Edit: wheres that robotron guy at to yell us Itwould be helpful if there was a switch.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 04:46:47 PM by Achronos »
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 04:51:48 PM »
Did you ever choose to be straight? There's your answer. In reality, sexual orientation is the result of a variety of factors such as biology, prenatal conditions and psychology--especially during early childhood and then during the adolescent years. That being said, we conclude that it is inaccurate to say that homosexuals are "born that way" as many folks claim, but at the same time, it is also inaccurate to say that they "chose" to be homosexual. In retrospect, either way, it is irrelevant from the Church's perspective as to where it comes from. Homosexuality in itself isn't condemned, rather sexual acts of a homo-erotic nature are condemned--as are a few other sexual practices due to some odd Canon laws that are often overlooked. In retrospect, I'm anxious to see how long it will take until J Michael twists the elementary semantics of the English language to support some far-fetched idea that homosexuals and panda bears threaten the non-existent American "family unit."
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 04:52:58 PM »
I'm not sure whether I buy the whole paradigm at all. It seems to be very recent and very Western phenomenon. People shouldn't build their identity on things like that.

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 05:35:06 PM »
Yes, it is a choice.  At base, people will screw anything.  In many cultures whether you had sex with a man or a woman was as big a deal as whether you'd screw a blonde or a brunette.  I.E. - people probably took personality and availability more into account than gender.  Throughout history you can find plenty of examples of people who would screw objects or animals, even. 

We have to make a conscious choice of what not to screw.  Our faith tells us that we cannot be gay.  It also tells us we can't screw outside of marriage or get jiggy with our favorite dog.  Due to various social and psychological mechanisms most sexual deviations from the norm give us a sense of revulsion.  Changes in society will often strip away these revulsion leaving us the base desire to shag that was always lying in wait underneath.

I think the only thing that is not a choice is the basic desire to screw something.  It has a built in physiological reward.  Usually a man and a woman wanting to go at it is most common as this is what is evolutionarily encouraged.  Men and women who do not want to make the beast with two backs have a way of becoming genetic cul-de-sacs.
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 05:53:37 PM »
Who you are attracted to is just the way you are. What you do about said attraction is very much a choice.

What influences the choice is neither here nor there.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 05:56:44 PM »
Why is that said? Do people believe that you can choose to be gay or straight?

What do you mean by "gay" and "straight"?


Offline biro

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 06:12:09 PM »
Yes, it is a choice.  At base, people will screw anything.
 

I don't really think so.

Having sex is a choice, unless you are assaulted, but even the most frisky people don't always go out of their way to throw themselves at everything that moves. A person who said he had a gay orientation but never actually did any sex acts would still probably call himself gay. Likewise, a straight person who hasn't had sex would still call themselves straight. So, acts may be a choice, but who you are, really isn't.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 07:25:50 PM »
I can recall a number of men who said they preferred sex with other men but ventured the opinion that preference was not a simple binary heterosexual or homosexual, but rather a continuum. Possibly so-called bisexuality may be an example of this.

A former colleague of mine was once asked about the sexual preferences of a particularly troubling forensic patient and responded, "I wouldn't trust him with the rug in my consult room". And I too came across a number whose preference seemed linked to opportunity rather than same sex or opposite sex.

It is as Christians that we need to struggle with God's help to fulfill the Church's teaching in this as in any other area of life, surely? The mores and views based on contemporary social thinking belong to an increasingly secular society all too often at odds with Christian teaching.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 07:40:36 PM »
Let's dip into the old bank of Buddhist wisdom for a good answer.

There are two types of karma, mutable and immutable.

Laziness is mutable, you can change that aspect of yourself.

Being short or tall is immutable, you cant change it.

If you are a Man and have a sex change operation you are still a Man, your sex is immutable even if you change your appearance.

So the question is if your sexuality, your sexual preferences are changeable or not.

Preferences are always mutable. That is not to say that sexuality is easily controlled. It may be too hard a task for some people.
But the argument that there is a third type of person, Men, Women and Homosexuals is a false construct. It matters not one whit if you have been born with homosexual tendencies or always have had a particular sexual preference. It is not like being born short or being born as a Man.

As difficult as it may be to deal with, homosexuality needs to be seen as incompatible  with  spiritual progress in this life. Nearly all religions over all time seem to have reached that same conclusion. It is sort of the Wisdom of the ages. Being homosexual is not good for you. It hinders spiritual progress.

In our society which values Worldly progress and has all but forgotten spiritual progress that may not compute so well.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 07:42:19 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 07:43:49 PM »
No, plenty of ancient societies accepted it. Doesn't seem they all thought it 'hindered spiritual progress' at all.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »
No, plenty of ancient societies accepted it. Doesn't seem they all thought it 'hindered spiritual progress' at all.

I didnt say all cultures have rejected it , did I?

It has been roundly discouraged in all the major religions. That should tell you something if you are open minded.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline J Michael

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 09:42:03 AM »
Did you ever choose to be straight? There's your answer. In reality, sexual orientation is the result of a variety of factors such as biology, prenatal conditions and psychology--especially during early childhood and then during the adolescent years. That being said, we conclude that it is inaccurate to say that homosexuals are "born that way" as many folks claim, but at the same time, it is also inaccurate to say that they "chose" to be homosexual. In retrospect, either way, it is irrelevant from the Church's perspective as to where it comes from. Homosexuality in itself isn't condemned, rather sexual acts of a homo-erotic nature are condemned--as are a few other sexual practices due to some odd Canon laws that are often overlooked. In retrospect, I'm anxious to see how long it will take until J Michael twists the elementary semantics of the English language to support some far-fetched idea that homosexuals and panda bears threaten the non-existent American "family unit."

 :laugh:

You're very funny, JamesR!

You're kinda close, but once again have "missed the mark", so to speak.  The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.





And just to reinforce some of the comments already made, acting gay, as in performing homosexual acts is a choice.  Sexual orientation is not necessarily so, if at all.

(See, just when you think you know me, JamesR.....you end up talking out your posterior inferior orifice once again  ::).  Not to worry, though, you're in excellent company--everyone of us manages to pass gas multiple times daily--even the ladies.  Now, the question is, is it a choice?  ;D)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:43:10 AM by J Michael »
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 10:58:21 AM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 11:05:38 AM »

^...that depends on the degree of autism the individual suffers.  Some are barely autistic...but, the poor souls who sit and rock and bang their heads against the walls, and cannot string a sentence together....they have no choice in the matter, and cannot be cured by current conventional means.
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 11:25:33 AM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.
autism isn't a "choice."

I recall a woman who overcame autism, of a sort, and IIRC even became a judge. What she did, however, was sublimate her autism and channel it-legal detail can make use of autism.  She was not non-autistic, however.  She frequently had to restrain herself in a restraint used for cattle, which she found soothing and allowed her to recharge to keep her autistic tendencies down.

Whether or not homosexuality is a choice doesn't matter for the morality of the issue.  I remember seeing interviews with "cured" homosexuals, who had married, and admitted that still they preferred sex with men.  I wonder how they get over the "ick factor" sleeping with their wives (for the record, there are "heterosexual" men who find sex with women "icky")
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 12:14:32 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.
autism isn't a "choice."

I recall a woman who overcame autism, of a sort, and IIRC even became a judge. What she did, however, was sublimate her autism and channel it-legal detail can make use of autism.  She was not non-autistic, however.  She frequently had to restrain herself in a restraint used for cattle, which she found soothing and allowed her to recharge to keep her autistic tendencies down.

Whether or not homosexuality is a choice doesn't matter for the morality of the issue.  I remember seeing interviews with "cured" homosexuals, who had married, and admitted that still they preferred sex with men. 

+1
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 12:17:26 PM »
The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.

Gay pandas are a problem, though. Pandas are on the verge of extinction. Homosexuality doesn't exactly help.
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 12:18:26 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.

Conversion therapy IS nonsensical.

Also, are you saying that autism is a choice too?  :o
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 12:21:40 PM »
The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.

Gay pandas are a problem, though. Pandas are on the verge of extinction. Homosexuality doesn't exactly help.

Does homosexuality in any species help anything?

(I only used the panda example because JamesR mentioned them in gaseous part of his post.)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:25:07 PM by J Michael »
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »
The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.

Gay pandas are a problem, though. Pandas are on the verge of extinction. Homosexuality doesn't exactly help.

Does homosexuality in any species help anything?

Yes. Less competition for me since there are more gay men than lesbians

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:24:20 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »
The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.

Gay pandas are a problem, though. Pandas are on the verge of extinction. Homosexuality doesn't exactly help.

Does homosexuality in any species help anything?

Yes. Less competition for me since there are more gay men than lesbians



Hey, that article is almost 14 years old!  Things could've changes since then.  But...good luck, anyway ;D.
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 12:31:25 PM »
But...good luck, anyway ;D.

At least I'm not a gay panda  :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:33:15 PM by Cyrillic »
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 12:32:48 PM »
At least I'm not a gay panda  :)

My day is now complete.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 12:32:58 PM »
At least I'm not a gay panda  :)
you can choose to be one, though. the choice is yours.

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 12:34:21 PM »
At least I'm not a gay panda  :)
you can choose to be one, though. the choice is yours.

Choice and free will only go soooo far, ya know.  I don't think he can change his dna.  Maybe when he's a little older, though  8).
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Offline Papist

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2013, 12:48:09 PM »
Did you ever choose to be straight? There's your answer. In reality, sexual orientation is the result of a variety of factors such as biology, prenatal conditions and psychology--especially during early childhood and then during the adolescent years. That being said, we conclude that it is inaccurate to say that homosexuals are "born that way" as many folks claim, but at the same time, it is also inaccurate to say that they "chose" to be homosexual. In retrospect, either way, it is irrelevant from the Church's perspective as to where it comes from. Homosexuality in itself isn't condemned, rather sexual acts of a homo-erotic nature are condemned--as are a few other sexual practices due to some odd Canon laws that are often overlooked. In retrospect, I'm anxious to see how long it will take until J Michael twists the elementary semantics of the English language to support some far-fetched idea that homosexuals and panda bears threaten the non-existent American "family unit."

 :laugh:

You're very funny, JamesR!

You're kinda close, but once again have "missed the mark", so to speak.  The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.





And just to reinforce some of the comments already made, acting gay, as in performing homosexual acts is a choice.  Sexual orientation is not necessarily so, if at all.

(See, just when you think you know me, JamesR.....you end up talking out your posterior inferior orifice once again  ::).  Not to worry, though, you're in excellent company--everyone of us manages to pass gas multiple times daily--even the ladies.  Now, the question is, is it a choice?  ;D)

Post of the month nomination!  :D
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2013, 01:09:55 PM »
Let's dip into the old bank of Buddhist wisdom for a good answer.

There are two types of karma, mutable and immutable.

Laziness is mutable, you can change that aspect of yourself.

Being short or tall is immutable, you cant change it.

If you are a Man and have a sex change operation you are still a Man, your sex is immutable even if you change your appearance.

So the question is if your sexuality, your sexual preferences are changeable or not.

Preferences are always mutable. That is not to say that sexuality is easily controlled. It may be too hard a task for some people.
But the argument that there is a third type of person, Men, Women and Homosexuals is a false construct. It matters not one whit if you have been born with homosexual tendencies or always have had a particular sexual preference. It is not like being born short or being born as a Man.

As difficult as it may be to deal with, homosexuality needs to be seen as incompatible  with  spiritual progress in this life. Nearly all religions over all time seem to have reached that same conclusion. It is sort of the Wisdom of the ages. Being homosexual is not good for you. It hinders spiritual progress.

In our society which values Worldly progress and has all but forgotten spiritual progress that may not compute so well.

Remind me who argued that there are three types of people "Men, Women and Homosexuals?"  I happen to be gay, and know many gay men, and myself - along with any of them - would be quite offended if you claimed we aren't men. 

And your talk of preference is also rather foolish.  I prefer watching a D-Backs game to watching an Astros game.  That could change in the future, who knows.  There was a time, after all, that I was a bigger Rockies fan than D-Backs fan.  I am also quite willing and able to watch an Astros game, even though I have no opinion on the team.

However, I am gay, and that means I am sexually and emotionally attracted to men.  I am not attracted (sexually or emotionally) to women, at all.  I have never been.  I cannot imagine that I ever will be in the future.  This is not a "preference."  I do not simply "prefer" men, as I prefer the Diamondbacks.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 01:27:47 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.

Autism consists of a very wide range of disorder, hence it is clinically referred to as autistic spectrum disorder. Some, a few, will live very successfully, others will struggle.

So-called 'conversion therapy' may be well meant but I real doubts about its' practitioners and their methodology. Reminds me of the Protestants that tell people they are healed and to throw away their medication. One group near me even included a retired General Medical Practitioner. Totally irresponsible and dangerous.

Sexual attraction and sexual activity involve many factors, and this is not a simple arena which merits more than simplistic responses.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 01:42:21 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.

I have known several people who were Gay ( one fellow was "Mr. Maryland" at one time) and then decided to drop it and not be Gay anymore. Go figure.

I also have known many couples, a surprisingly large number, where the guy is Gay but they find ways to make do and be happy.

I have a Woman friend who got dumped by her hubby. A few years later she found a girlfriend and moved in with her. I asked if she had always been Homosexual and she said no, but that this arrangement suits her now.

When I mentioned her in passing to a Gay relative of mine he got angry and insisted that you are born Homosexual. He was really offended that it was just a choice she made late in life..Spoiled the standard narrative I guess.

My Aunt was married for many years and had two kids. He died..she got a girlfriend and they lived together for many years..They broke up and now she has remarried a Man..
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 01:44:53 PM »
At least I'm not a gay panda  :)
you can choose to be one, though. the choice is yours.

Choice and free will only go soooo far, ya know.  I don't think he can change his dna.  Maybe when he's a little older, though  8).

What if he becomes a gay furrie?
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2013, 01:46:57 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.

I have known several people who were Gay ( one fellow was "Mr. Maryland" at one time) and then decided to drop it and not be Gay anymore. Go figure.

I also have known many couples, a surprisingly large number, where the guy is Gay but they find ways to make do and be happy.

I have a Woman friend who got dumped by her hubby. A few years later she found a girlfriend and moved in with her. I asked if she had always been Homosexual and she said no, but that this arrangement suits her now.

When I mentioned her in passing to a Gay relative of mine he got angry and insisted that you are born Homosexual. He was really offended that it was just a choice she made late in life..Spoiled the standard narrative I guess.

My Aunt was married for many years and had two kids. He died..she got a girlfriend and they lived together for many years..They broke up and now she has remarried a Man..

One of my friends has the theory that everyone is 90% Straight and 10% Gay or 10% Straight and 90% Gay.  Case in point, he said once that despite being 90% Gay, he was seeing a lot of his 10% Straight side at the bar on Friday nights.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2013, 01:47:58 PM »
At least I'm not a gay panda  :)
you can choose to be one, though. the choice is yours.

Choice and free will only go soooo far, ya know.  I don't think he can change his dna.  Maybe when he's a little older, though  8).

What if he becomes a gay furrie?

LOLOLOLOL!!!

Yeah, okay..... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  But, again, the dna thingy might be a problem ;).
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Offline montalban

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2013, 08:31:26 PM »
Why is that said? Do people believe that you can choose to be gay or straight?

Edit: wheres that robotron guy at to yell us Itwould be helpful if there was a switch.

I know of people who have had homosexual relationships, and then had relationships that are heterosexual.

The claim by modernists is itself that sexuality is more fluid than first believed.

If this is so, whilst people might be predisposed to be one way or the other an element of choice in how one acts still exists.

A priest (for e.g.) may be heterosexual, but chooses to be abstinent

He is thus born a certain way but this doesn’t negate his choice to act.

Unfortunately the gay-lobby argue that why should they not act on their impulses.
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2013, 08:33:58 PM »
No, plenty of ancient societies accepted it. Doesn't seem they all thought it 'hindered spiritual progress' at all.

And...?
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Offline montalban

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2013, 08:39:20 PM »
The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.

Gay pandas are a problem, though. Pandas are on the verge of extinction. Homosexuality doesn't exactly help.

Are there any evolutionary theories to account for homosexuality? How would it be an advantage to have a homosexual group in any given population?

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Offline montalban

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2013, 08:40:21 PM »
At least I'm not a gay panda  :)
you can choose to be one, though. the choice is yours.

Choice and free will only go soooo far, ya know.  I don't think he can change his dna.  Maybe when he's a little older, though  8).

We don't want to leave the door open where criminals say that they were simply compelled to be that way because of their DNA

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2013, 08:46:13 PM »
Sure it's a choice.  Modern promotion of homosexuality certainly is attributing to the rise of "coming out".   I believe all people are weak in certain sins.... For me it would be anger amongst other things.

I believe homosexuals may be weak in the sin, and give into it under the guise of commonality.

To believe God created homosexuals who are justified acting on it, is believing God created abominations.  I believe it is a choice, sin or not to sin.
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Offline montalban

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2013, 09:10:53 PM »
Sure it's a choice.  Modern promotion of homosexuality certainly is attributing to the rise of "coming out".   I believe all people are weak in certain sins.... For me it would be anger amongst other things.

I believe homosexuals may be weak in the sin, and give into it under the guise of commonality.

To believe God created homosexuals who are justified acting on it, is believing God created abominations.  I believe it is a choice, sin or not to sin.

I understand your argument. However people ARE born with abnormalities. It's not God's will, certainly. But the world is subject to sin.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2013, 09:16:39 PM »
Sure it's a choice.  Modern promotion of homosexuality certainly is attributing to the rise of "coming out".   I believe all people are weak in certain sins.... For me it would be anger amongst other things.

I believe homosexuals may be weak in the sin, and give into it under the guise of commonality.

To believe God created homosexuals who are justified acting on it, is believing God created abominations.  I believe it is a choice, sin or not to sin.

I understand your argument. However people ARE born with abnormalities. It's not God's will, certainly. But the world is subject to sin.

Is it not God's will?  Did God cede His authority, His power, His omnipotence?  Did he not create the world with foreknowledge of all that was to come, and all who was to come?
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Offline montalban

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2013, 09:33:41 PM »
Sure it's a choice.  Modern promotion of homosexuality certainly is attributing to the rise of "coming out".   I believe all people are weak in certain sins.... For me it would be anger amongst other things.

I believe homosexuals may be weak in the sin, and give into it under the guise of commonality.

To believe God created homosexuals who are justified acting on it, is believing God created abominations.  I believe it is a choice, sin or not to sin.

I understand your argument. However people ARE born with abnormalities. It's not God's will, certainly. But the world is subject to sin.

Is it not God's will?  Did God cede His authority, His power, His omnipotence?  Did he not create the world with foreknowledge of all that was to come, and all who was to come?

It's not God's will for us to sin. He doesn't want or make us sin. It is his will that we have choice; which includes the potential to sin. A consequence of that potential is that we do sin.

We were not designed to sin.

Some Protestants cannot distinguish between God's will (which is free will), and the freedom to go against God's will (which is sin).

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:34:56 PM by montalban »
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2013, 10:03:36 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.
There are those for whom the therapy works and those for whom it does not. I remember watching an interview with a gentleman who either stopped being involved in church or almost stopped because he was gay and the therapy did not work, and it was supposed to work.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 10:04:32 PM by Anastasia1 »
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Offline Ionnis

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2013, 10:07:59 PM »
First, the cause of homosexuality is unknown.  I suspect that a cause will never be found as human sexuality is far more complex than we can imagine.  What we do know is that for the vast majority of people their sexual orientation is not chosen.  We also know that for the vast majority of men sexual orientation does not change.  We also know that reparative therapy does not work, whether you're male or female.  We also know that male homosexuality and female homosexuality are two different beasts and should be studied separately.  For instance, Marc mentioned a women who entered into a homosexual relationship later in life.  She reported that she had not always been homosexual.  I don't believe Marc is lying.  This is more common than you might think.  However, such examples cannot be extrapolated to include homosexual men.  Again, female sexuality and male sexuality are different.  Of course most people would agree with that last sentence outside the context of this sort of discussion, but when it comes to the issue of homosexuality people like to conflate the two.  It is dishonest, but people resort to these things when they are more interested in ideology than facts.  And forgive me for my imprecise language and oversimplification of things.  I simply do not have the time or desire to write a five page post.  And really, this horse has been beat (humped is probably a more appropriate word in this case) to death.  
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 10:09:50 PM by Ionnis »
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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2013, 10:27:30 PM »
The only threat that I perceive to that which you claim does not exist is...........................gay pandas.

Gay pandas are a problem, though. Pandas are on the verge of extinction. Homosexuality doesn't exactly help.

Are there any evolutionary theories to account for homosexuality? How would it be an advantage to have a homosexual group in any given population?



In a harem type social structure, or any one where women are objectivized and mating becomes a zero-sum game where the alpha males pass on their genes and beta males are kept out of the gene pool.  In these situations sexual urges still exist and the the lesser males sate themselves with each other.  In any sort of civilizational structure where the resources and output of the beta males must be harnessed monogamy is much more efficient.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2013, 10:48:48 PM »
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. If it was not a choice, then "conversion therapy", which tries to change one's sexual orientation would be nonsensical. The arguments for homosexuality not being a choice are the same as the arguments that autism cannot be cured. BTW, autistic people can change and live as normal people. If they are married and have a normal lifestyle, they are non-autistic for all practical intents and purposes, and should not have any impediments based on their former state. It is a choice whether to act on a homosexual orientation if one exists.

I have known several people who were Gay ( one fellow was "Mr. Maryland" at one time) and then decided to drop it and not be Gay anymore. Go figure.

I also have known many couples, a surprisingly large number, where the guy is Gay but they find ways to make do and be happy.

I have a Woman friend who got dumped by her hubby. A few years later she found a girlfriend and moved in with her. I asked if she had always been Homosexual and she said no, but that this arrangement suits her now.

When I mentioned her in passing to a Gay relative of mine he got angry and insisted that you are born Homosexual. He was really offended that it was just a choice she made late in life..Spoiled the standard narrative I guess.

My Aunt was married for many years and had two kids. He died..she got a girlfriend and they lived together for many years..They broke up and now she has remarried a Man..

Interesting, Marc.  I think this might prove what I've always thought; that some choose to be homosexual, while others are born that way. 
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Offline montalban

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Re: Being gay is a choice?
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2013, 11:05:53 PM »
First, the cause of homosexuality is unknown.

I have two gay friends who are both also, atheists.

I find it interesting that if they believe all we are is our genes, etc. then their orientation must also be genetic.

Some people are in fact searching for the gay gene
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