Author Topic: Alcohol & pork  (Read 722 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,158
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Alcohol & pork
« on: April 29, 2013, 03:04:22 PM »
Hi dear all,

 i've been speaking to someone about religions and we discussed alcohol and eating pork.

In Torah there is a prohibition of eating pork, but as far as I know in the Gospel we are allowed to eat pork. How was this Law changed in the Gospel if it has?

About alcohol, as far as I know we are encouraged to drink wine (correct me if Im wrong, but the Jews get even drunk on some Jewish events as a tradition), but we are not allowed to abuse wine or alcohol for known reasons, which is fine.
But some Christians don't drink alcohol.

So, what is the Orthodox Law on eating pork and drinking alcohol (not abusing it and getting drunk).

If you can help when you state, please justify it with examples from the Bible or quote a verse,thank you.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,172
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 03:11:31 PM »
Hi dear all,

 i've been speaking to someone about religions and we discussed alcohol and eating pork.

In Torah there is a prohibition of eating pork, but as far as I know in the Gospel we are allowed to eat pork. How was this Law changed in the Gospel if it has?

About alcohol, as far as I know we are encouraged to drink wine (correct me if Im wrong, but the Jews get even drunk on some Jewish events as a tradition), but we are not allowed to abuse wine or alcohol for known reasons, which is fine.
But some Christians don't drink alcohol.

So, what is the Orthodox Law on eating pork and drinking alcohol (not abusing it and getting drunk).

If you can help when you state, please justify it with examples from the Bible or quote a verse,thank you.

TBH, I would suggest reading the Gospels, except maybe John, and the Act of the Apostles a few times, if such questions are not easily answered by you in light of Scripture.

Then tackle Romans.

Verse proofing ain't gonna get you nowhere.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,366
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2013, 03:13:36 PM »
^Seconded.  Read it as a whole.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The Purple Demon is gonna get you if you don't watch out!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,350
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 01:32:26 PM »
I would say the vision that Peter had of the unclean foods coming down and the voice telling him to eat would be a good indication that it is acceptable to eat pork now.  Of course, the deeper meaning of the vision was that the Church was to spread to the Gentiles, but I would say that is a good passage that gives approval to eating foods that were previously condemned.  In regards to alcohol, Christ drank wine frequently, gave it to his disciples and also turned water into wine.  I don't know how you get much more obvious than that.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,158
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 04:18:18 PM »
wine can be fermented and unfermented. Only unfermeneted wine should be consumed. I guess with reagrds to pork and wine it is down to individual interpretation..
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The Purple Demon is gonna get you if you don't watch out!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,350
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 04:21:46 PM »
Umm, I think the definition of wine is a fermented beverage from fruit. Here is the definition:

wine 
/wīn/Noun
An alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice.
 

If you are Orthodox, it is definitely not down to individual interpretation, you follow the teachings of the Church.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline andrewlya

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,158
  • God is One & Jesus is the Messiah.
  • Jurisdiction: Pro-Conservatism. Anti-liberalism.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 04:39:35 PM »
Umm, I think the definition of wine is a fermented beverage from fruit. Here is the definition:

wine 
/wīn/Noun
An alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice.
 

If you are Orthodox, it is definitely not down to individual interpretation, you follow the teachings of the Church.

True.Agree.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline KBN1

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 888
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 04:52:03 PM »
The Pascha agape meal next Sunday will tell you exactly what the Orthodox think about pork and alcohol.   ;)

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,078
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 04:54:40 PM »
Pork and alcohol go well together.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

  • Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,991
  • The Lord helps those who help others
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 08:34:03 PM »
Eat lambs, they are cuter than pigs.  ;D
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,078
  • Scarecrow is watching you
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 11:58:03 AM »
Eat lambs, they are cuter than pigs.  ;D

I do not like lamb much.

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,373
  • Now with bigger boots!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 01:21:59 PM »
Eat lambs, they are cuter than pigs.  ;D

Kittens are even cuter, but barely a couple of mouthfuls each. :P
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline KBN1

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 888
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 05:08:44 PM »
Eat lambs, they are cuter than pigs.  ;D

Kittens are even cuter, but barely a couple of mouthfuls each. :P

My father, speaking to young children as they were holding and petting newly hatched chicks at a neighbor's farm:  "So do you kids know where chicken nuggets come from?"   ;D

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,384
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2013, 05:05:32 PM »
I'm gonna say it and I don't care who I offend; Meditteranian food taste like garbage in my opinion. All of those Greeks are always bragging (like they do about everything culture related) that their food is so great and good. But if you ask me, it taste horrible. I hate all of those weird vegetables and junk that they use, and I am not too fond of lamb. I'll take my greasy Mexican-American food any day over that junk.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,373
  • Now with bigger boots!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2013, 05:27:22 PM »
I'm gonna say it and I don't care who I offend; Meditteranian food taste like garbage in my opinion. All of those Greeks are always bragging (like they do about everything culture related) that their food is so great and good. But if you ask me, it taste horrible. I hate all of those weird vegetables and junk that they use, and I am not too fond of lamb. I'll take my greasy Mexican-American food any day over that junk.

It is great and good. Not our fault you have no taste. :P
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 06:45:55 PM »
I'm gonna say it and I don't care who I offend; Meditteranian food taste like garbage in my opinion. All of those Greeks are always bragging (like they do about everything culture related) that their food is so great and good. But if you ask me, it taste horrible. I hate all of those weird vegetables and junk that they use, and I am not too fond of lamb. I'll take my greasy Mexican-American food any day over that junk.

It is great and good. Not our fault you have no taste. :P

Amen. Seriously, taste is subjective. However the classic Mediterranean diet is healthier as well as enjoyable to eat.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,697
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 07:02:07 PM »
I'm gonna say it and I don't care who I offend; Meditteranian food taste like garbage in my opinion. All of those Greeks are always bragging (like they do about everything culture related) that their food is so great and good. But if you ask me, it taste horrible. I hate all of those weird vegetables and junk that they use, and I am not too fond of lamb. I'll take my greasy Mexican-American food any day over that junk.

There is nothing like Gyros OR Fajitas.  When both are cooked just right - if you locked me in a room with a pile of them, I would not be able to get back out the door.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 07:10:59 PM »
I'm gonna say it and I don't care who I offend; Meditteranian food taste like garbage in my opinion. All of those Greeks are always bragging (like they do about everything culture related) that their food is so great and good. But if you ask me, it taste horrible. I hate all of those weird vegetables and junk that they use, and I am not too fond of lamb. I'll take my greasy Mexican-American food any day over that junk.

Lamb gyros are amazing!
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,479
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2013, 08:39:10 PM »
Christ is risen!
Eat lambs, they are cuter than pigs.  ;D

Kittens are even cuter, but barely a couple of mouthfuls each. :P

My father, speaking to young children as they were holding and petting newly hatched chicks at a neighbor's farm:  "So do you kids know where chicken nuggets come from?"   ;D
Sometimes I wonder. :o
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,479
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2013, 08:41:56 PM »
Christ is risen!
wine can be fermented and unfermented. Only unfermeneted wine should be consumed. I guess with reagrds to pork and wine it is down to individual interpretation..
Uh, no.  Given the remarks on the wine given at the wedding at Cana, it was fermented wine that was served Christ and His mother and disciples.

"Only unfermented wine should be consumed."  Says who?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline pmpn8rGPT

  • Grammar Nazi in three languages.
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,038
  • Proof that Russia won the Space Race.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2013, 08:53:05 PM »
There are three interpretations regarding dietary laws that I know of.

The first is the one most everyone is familiar with, that the Torah has been Fulfilled.

The second is that, while the Torah has been Fulfilled, certain things have a more spiritual meaning, for example, prohibition against pork is actually a prohibition against praying to God only when you need something while ignoring Him when you are doing fine (because pigs squeal when they are hungry and are silent when they are full).

The third is rejected by the Orthodox Church, it is that the Torah is still obligatory or that there is a spiritual reward for following it in its most physical sense.  There are canons against this one.

I used to be a huge fan of the second, however I realize that when you interpret everything in a spiritual sense, you can bend Scripture which ever way you want, which is not good.  

As for pork itself, I don't see why you would want to eat it, it tastes disgusting IMO and is very unsanitary (interestingly, the sanitation is bad for any of the "forbidden" meats).

---
Regarding whine, Jesus turned water into whine and fed it to the Apostles, I don't see how it gets simpler than that.

Just don't get so wasted that you can't remember what happened the next day, and none on any fast days.
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,384
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2013, 09:23:23 PM »
As for pork itself, I don't see why you would want to eat it, it tastes disgusting IMO

Bull. It taste disgusting when you make it by itself--too dry, salty and not enough flavor--but when combined with an apple sauce glaze and cinnamon, or perhaps diced up and tossed into some chili, it taste quite well. You could also take pulled pork, marinate it in chili powder and herbs, then throw it into a Salvadorian style tostada. Latin cooking is highly underrated, imo. Over in these countries, pork is probably the predominant meat, seeing that its the largest game animal they have, same with the Pacific Islands.

Quote
and is very unsanitary (interestingly, the sanitation is bad for any of the "forbidden" meats).

So? I've eaten it all my life and I feel fine. I don't care about what they say on paper.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

  • Grammar Nazi in three languages.
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,038
  • Proof that Russia won the Space Race.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2013, 09:36:52 PM »
 
I've eaten it all my life.
Dude, you're like seventeen. ;)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 09:37:51 PM by pmpn8rGPT »
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,479
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2013, 09:44:38 PM »
Christ is risen!
There are three interpretations regarding dietary laws that I know of.

The first is the one most everyone is familiar with, that the Torah has been Fulfilled.

The second is that, while the Torah has been Fulfilled, certain things have a more spiritual meaning, for example, prohibition against pork is actually a prohibition against praying to God only when you need something while ignoring Him when you are doing fine (because pigs squeal when they are hungry and are silent when they are full).

The third is rejected by the Orthodox Church, it is that the Torah is still obligatory or that there is a spiritual reward for following it in its most physical sense.  There are canons against this one.

I used to be a huge fan of the second, however I realize that when you interpret everything in a spiritual sense, you can bend Scripture which ever way you want, which is not good.  

As for pork itself, I don't see why you would want to eat it, it tastes disgusting IMO and is very unsanitary (interestingly, the sanitation is bad for any of the "forbidden" meats).
Too much bacon said no one ever.

---
Regarding whine, Jesus turned water into whine and fed it to the Apostles, I don't see how it gets simpler than that.

Just don't get so wasted that you can't remember what happened the next day, and none on any fast days.
Wine, not whine.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline pmpn8rGPT

  • Grammar Nazi in three languages.
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,038
  • Proof that Russia won the Space Race.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2013, 09:47:47 PM »
Christ is risen!
There are three interpretations regarding dietary laws that I know of.

The first is the one most everyone is familiar with, that the Torah has been Fulfilled.

The second is that, while the Torah has been Fulfilled, certain things have a more spiritual meaning, for example, prohibition against pork is actually a prohibition against praying to God only when you need something while ignoring Him when you are doing fine (because pigs squeal when they are hungry and are silent when they are full).

The third is rejected by the Orthodox Church, it is that the Torah is still obligatory or that there is a spiritual reward for following it in its most physical sense.  There are canons against this one.

I used to be a huge fan of the second, however I realize that when you interpret everything in a spiritual sense, you can bend Scripture which ever way you want, which is not good.  

As for pork itself, I don't see why you would want to eat it, it tastes disgusting IMO and is very unsanitary (interestingly, the sanitation is bad for any of the "forbidden" meats).
Too much bacon said no one ever.
Suit yourself.

---
Regarding whine, Jesus turned water into whine and fed it to the Apostles, I don't see how it gets simpler than that.

Just don't get so wasted that you can't remember what happened the next day, and none on any fast days.
Wine, not whine.
My apologies, too late to change.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 09:48:22 PM by pmpn8rGPT »
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,384
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2013, 09:48:54 PM »
I don't blame those Muslims for all their terrorism and violence; if I were deprived of pork all my life, I imagine I wouldn't be too happy and peaceful either.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

  • Grammar Nazi in three languages.
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,038
  • Proof that Russia won the Space Race.
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2013, 09:51:57 PM »
I don't blame those Muslims for all their terrorism and violence; if I were deprived of pork all my life, I imagine I wouldn't be too happy and peaceful either.
Interesting, how every religion which is oppressive (Islam and Judaism) doesn't eat pork. :o

I never thought of that before, good job.
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,247
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Alcohol & pork
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 02:46:33 AM »

As for pork itself, I don't see why you would want to eat it, it tastes disgusting IMO

Pork from a male animal can indeed taste disgusting, female pigs do not have that horrible taste. The same goes for goat (billy meat is VILE!!) and, to a lesser extent, lamb. A good butcher can tell from the carcass whether the animal is male or female.
No longer posting here. Anyone is welcome to email me at the address in my profile.