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Author Topic: Sacraments during Liturgy  (Read 2084 times) Average Rating: 0
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2013, 09:55:24 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

I don't question "your" Orthodoxy and never have.  That's not my place.  I simply asked you a question to help you clarify your position AND help avoid more such questions in the future.  You chose to bite the hand that was trying to help you up.


Did not seem like it at the time. All I get here are attacks on my Orthodoxy. I should not have to continually have to somehow prove that I am cradle Orthodox. I have had discussions with many Priests and Bishops and have never been treated like I am here.
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2013, 09:57:17 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

At least Shultz was able to give you a direct answer...

Now back to topic,

I have not had the opportunity to see an Orthodox wedding yet (aside from a scene in Tchaikovsky by the BBC) and I was wondering what that process would be like? I have seen the newly weds come up during the Liturgy for some thing or another but I can't remember what for. Anybody have any clue as to why they go up during the Liturgy?

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2013, 09:57:50 AM »

I don't know if this counts, but we had a couple who became catechumens right after Liturgy a few weeks ago.

We do it before the DL so that they can then go up for the prayers for the catechumens.
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2013, 09:59:27 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

That doesn't make someone immune from straying.  police

That is true. But nothing gives you the right to tell another Orthodox Christian that they are not Orthodox...  
You are derailing this thread by letting a personal squabble on another thread spill over into this one. That is a violation of our "Contain Conflict" rule, which I quote below.

From the Rules Page:
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* Contain Conflict --  With religious discussion, disagreement is inevitable.  Please be civil and keep conflict (provided it's on topic) within the thread it was posted in.  If your conflict seems to be taking a thread off of its course, please start a new one.

I've already told you to knock this off. To drive home the point that you need to cool down and stop derailing threads with your ongoing feud with posters who question your Orthodoxy, I am putting you on post moderation for the next 20 days. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2013, 10:00:38 AM »

I don't know if this counts, but we had a couple who became catechumens right after Liturgy a few weeks ago.

We do it before the DL so that they can then go up for the prayers for the catechumens.

I was never formally made a catechumen, but my wife and daughter were made catechumens before Liturgy as well... Why do most of my experiences with Orthodoxy happen through my wife and daughter  Huh
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2013, 10:02:27 AM »

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.

Because the ancient practice had become obsolete and was only restored recently.

I was told here on this forum that ancient practices were not allowed to be brought back.  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2013, 10:02:42 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

I don't question "your" Orthodoxy and never have.  That's not my place.  I simply asked you a question to help you clarify your position AND help avoid more such questions in the future.  You chose to bite the hand that was trying to help you up.


Did not seem like it at the time. All I get here are attacks on my Orthodoxy. I should not have to continually have to somehow prove that I am cradle Orthodox. I have had discussions with many Priests and Bishops and have never been treated like I am here.

Because you have a huge chip on your shoulder.  Go back and re-read with a clear head.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2013, 10:07:27 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.

In my church, since Baptism, Chrismation, and the Divine Liturgy are not private services but services of the entire congregation, they cannot be "part of the whole service." It is true that Chrismation immediately follows Baptism, but unless they are done just before a DL, as it is done on Holy Saturday, then communion must await for the next DL.

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2013, 10:07:53 AM »

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.

Because the ancient practice had become obsolete and was only restored recently.

I was told here on this forum that ancient practices were not allowed to be brought back.  Wink

This Judaising is getting tiresome.
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »

Now that Yeshua HaDerekh is on post moderation for his refusal to contain conflict to just one thread, I ask formally that you all stop replying to his attempts to goad you into snapping back at him. Otherwise, you will receive your own warnings for your inability to contain your conflict with him.
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2013, 12:21:49 PM »

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

Why? It's the original practice.
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2013, 12:42:09 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.

In my church, since Baptism, Chrismation, and the Divine Liturgy are not private services but services of the entire congregation, they cannot be "part of the whole service." It is true that Chrismation immediately follows Baptism, but unless they are done just before a DL, as it is done on Holy Saturday, then communion must await for the next DL.

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2013, 12:44:04 PM »

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

Why? It's the original practice.

The original practice was that baptism took place outside of the church structure. Look at the historical models of churches and you will notice that the baptistry is built outside the church building. The only context within the liturgy is that the newly baptized where brought into the church during the chanting of "As Many as have been baptized..." before the Epsistle reading, and partake of communion for the first time during the liturgy. The actual baptism never took place inside the church itself during the ancient times. The Yale dig of the early Christian house church in Syria or Turkey (I can not remember which) even shows a separate room, that based on the mosaics present, would indicate the room was used for baptism and not liturgy.  
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2013, 01:44:10 PM »

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

Well, the rite of Baptism as we have it now crams up into one ceremony different things that catechumens would have experienced over a larger time span in Antiquity: the repeated exorcisms, the receiving of the Symbol (Creed), etc. Now that part (including the threefold recitation of the Creed) is done before the Liturgy begins.

IIRC on the Paschal Vigil the catechumens would have been baptized during the many readings of the Liturgy of St. Basil and then they joined the other faithful when "As many as have been baptized" was sung.

Whenever Baptism/Marriage is joined with the Divine Liturgy, the newly baptised or newlyweds are communed first, before the rest of the congregation. 
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2013, 01:48:51 PM »

Quote
Whenever Baptism/Marriage is joined with the Divine Liturgy, the newly baptised or newlyweds are communed first, before the rest of the congregation.

The newly-baptized are communed first even if they weren't baptized during a DL.
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2013, 01:50:51 PM »

I too have witnessed several sacraments reduced from communal to private character, to include marriage, baptism/Chrismation, and now we see communion (even when the person is not sick and at home). That does not make these practices laudable or normative. I can see how sacraments could be private to protect the parties from hostile authorities or when it is nearly impossible to conduct them in public. In this day and age, I don't think we need to continue to continue that sort of practice or to emulate the heterodox who consider baptisms and marriages to be for family and invited guests only. I also have a problem with several deviances from the ideal regarding Holy Communion--even though they have a pedigree of sorts: infrequent communion (once of four times a year); imposition of draconian preparation requirements on lay folks even if they commune regularly; private communion when a person is able to attend the DL; and, at times, some folks treating communion (or any Mystery) as magic. Regarding my very last point, we saw that on Pascha when some folks got in line and had to be turned away. They could not understand why, as baptized Orthodox, they could not be given communion without preparation, recent confession or fasting.
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2013, 01:56:30 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2013, 02:10:07 PM »

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

Yes. That's why for all the great feasts when baptisms were performed, there are more than 3 readings (Paroimiai) at the Vigils. While they were read, the Bishop and the other clergy would be baptizing; this also calls for a change of vestments: maybe hence the custom to change them at the Vigil Liturgy of Great Saturday. If there were less catechumens to be baptized, they wouldn't read all 15 of them (or how many they are).

As for the Wedding, it seems like the newlyweds communed with the Presanctified Gifts.

Here's the version of the baptismal Divine Liturgy approved by the Russian Church in 2002 (in Slavonic).
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2013, 02:44:39 PM »

Here's the version of the baptismal Divine Liturgy approved by the Russian Church in 2002 (in Slavonic).

Interesting. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with these kind of innovations -- services like this change all of the time across Church history -- but it's certainly not returning to the "original." That's the only problem I have with these kind of "renovationist" or "reforming" trends: the conceit that they are someone returning to the "original" practice. The one thing you can be sure of is that NO ONE in the history of the Church ever did a baptism like this until this particular book was promulgated.

Same goes for the various attempts to recreate Paschal chrismations or baptisms. Christians in the East, inside and outside of the Empire, didn't do baptisms on Easter in the earliest centuries. That's a Roman and North African thing, exported to the East along with the celebration of Christmas in the fourth century. Eastern Christians baptized on Theophany (and had a unique theology of what Baptism was as a result).
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2013, 02:49:09 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.
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« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

Xeroupotamou has a beautiful new baptistry in the wing of the monastery that was recently rebuilt following a fire some years ago. Quite a few other monasteries have undergone reconstruction in recent years, so I'd be surprised if it was the only one.
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« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2013, 05:14:46 PM »

orthodox11, are there any greek monasteries you haven't been to?!
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« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2013, 06:35:56 PM »

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

Xeroupotamou has a beautiful new baptistry in the wing of the monastery that was recently rebuilt following a fire some years ago. Quite a few other monasteries have undergone reconstruction in recent years, so I'd be surprised if it was the only one.

I was there for the feast of the Exaltation of the Cross a few years ago and remember seeing the construction going on, I had no idea that they were building a baptistry!  If you happen to have any photos of it I would love to see them.  Vatopaidi has also gone through quite a bit of reconstruction since Elder Joseph the Younger (memory eternal) moved in with his monks in the 80s but I don't recall seeing a baptistry there.
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« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2013, 11:51:46 PM »

At the end of a Liturgy on Sunday in a major English speaking Russian Patriarchal Church in Philadelphia I saw a marriage performed. The reason given was that the family actually wanted this because they like the liturgy service.

I thought it had a nice side, because sometimes people get married and other people in the parish don't know about it and the couple rarely (if ever) comes to church before and after.
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« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2013, 02:08:10 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

That brings to mind an interesting question. If a Priest blesses part of the Aegean Sea for Baptism, is the whole sea blessed. What about someone who goes swimming in the Aegan Sea are thy Baptized?

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2013, 02:38:30 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

That brings to mind an interesting question. If a Priest blesses part of the Aegean Sea for Baptism, is the whole sea blessed. What about someone who goes swimming in the Aegan Sea are thy Baptized?

Fr. John W. Morris

That means there are a lot of Turks who are Orthodox and don't know it yet.
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« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2013, 03:28:56 PM »

you know, if you look at a lot of turks and see how they live in their culture and interract with people, they are basically orthodox Christians who converted in name only. so much Christian culture is left there.
same with egyptians. many of them didn't want to convert at all, just they were not quite strong enough to suffer and die for their faith. many of the good things in the Christian culture stayed on.
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« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2013, 03:35:20 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

That brings to mind an interesting question. If a Priest blesses part of the Aegean Sea for Baptism, is the whole sea blessed. What about someone who goes swimming in the Aegan Sea are thy Baptized?

Fr. John W. Morris

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« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2013, 08:54:25 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

My parish does no private baptisms or chrismations.  The only exception would be if it was an emergency baptism (we had one child born 3 months early and our priest baptized her right after she was born since we didn't know if she would survive).
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