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Author Topic: Sacraments during Liturgy  (Read 2196 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 28, 2013, 09:45:51 AM »

How common among you is to have baptisms/chrismations or marriages performed during Liturgy?

I've witnessed a few baptisms/chrismations but it's not the norm here. I've also heard about one marriage performed that way.
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 09:55:37 AM »

Every single Chrismation that I've seen here has been done during regular sunday liturgy but that might be due to the fact that they've all been adult converts. It could be that infants are baptized and chrismated privately.

AFAIK marriages are rarely celebrated during liturgies. I'm aware of two such instances.
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 10:12:34 AM »

In the Greek tradition, both weddings and baptisms are big affairs, so they are performed separately - baptisms usually in the late morning/early afternoon and weddings in the evening. I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2013, 10:56:13 AM »

I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.

Infants have no need to take Communion immediately afterwards?
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 10:58:58 AM »

we usually do baptism or chrismation just before raising of incense; before liturgy.
when there are 2 priests, and when everything is running late (!) baptism can take place during the raising of incense / first part of liturgy, but normally it should be done first.
it can be done separately, but this is not common.
weddings are often done separately, as it takes the bride at least 4 hours to do hair and make up, and that would be just too much fasting to have the liturgy late in the afternoon after the wedding!
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2013, 11:06:14 AM »

weddings are often done separately, as it takes the bride at least 4 hours to do hair and make up

LOL. Some things are universal.
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 11:17:35 AM »

I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.

Infants have no need to take Communion immediately afterwards?

Not necessarily. Our custom is taking the baby to church for Communion, together with the baptismal candle, for the three Sundays following baptism.
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 11:23:58 AM »

I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.

Infants have no need to take Communion immediately afterwards?

Not necessarily. Our custom is taking the baby to church for Communion, together with the baptismal candle, for the three Sundays following baptism.

While I respect your tradition and I don't want to suggest that any parish should do things differently than they're used to I still don't understand your idea. What's the difference between infants and adults? Both are sinful human beings after all so I fail to understand what's the theological reason for different customs for different age groups. Both desperately need to partake the Body and Blood of Christ so why to delay it?
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2013, 11:29:26 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2013, 11:34:58 AM »

As I said, I've never been to an adult chrismation. It might be very well done separately too, like infant baptisms.
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 11:42:10 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 12:09:04 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 12:12:06 PM »

I don't know if this counts, but we had a couple who became catechumens right after Liturgy a few weeks ago.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 12:27:24 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.

Thanks for your response, Michael.

I've never witnessed that.  All the private baptisms I have ever seen were celebrated in the parish church.

You do make a good point.  Without a tabernacle, there would be no reserved Sacrament from which to commune the newly baptized.

I guess if you had to wait until the next Divine Liturgy and bring the infant to church for his first communion it would not be the end of the world.  I know different local Churches have different customs.  You are in Poland, correct?
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 12:33:02 PM »

You are in Poland, correct?

Correct.
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 12:38:31 PM »


I would love to visit Poland someday.  A friend of mine recently took several trips there and he showed me some videos he took in Krakow.  It was just such a beautiful city.  I have studied some Polish history (mostly 19th and 20th century stuff), but I would like to learn the medieval history of Poland better.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 07:08:47 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 09:45:16 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2013, 10:04:12 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.

What kind of service?
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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 10:16:34 AM »


I believe he is referring to Baptism.

During the service the individual get's baptized, chrismated and communes.
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 11:06:58 AM »

I don't know if this applies to the Byzantine rite, but in the West Syriac rite, we are taught that the Eucharist is the "Final" sacrament, which completes all other sacraments. So the other sacraments are usually performed either during or after the Qurbana, or with a reserved Eucharist.
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 11:18:54 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 03:58:49 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?
The main reason is that receiving Communion is the fulfillment and completion of our Baptism.
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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 04:02:38 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.
I would say that private baptisms should be discouraged excepted in extreme circumstances.  During baptism we become incorporate in the Church, therefore anyone from the Church who wishes to should be able to be present to welcome the person into a new life in Christ.
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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2013, 05:20:33 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.
I would say that private baptisms should be discouraged excepted in extreme circumstances.  During baptism we become incorporate in the Church, therefore anyone from the Church who wishes to should be able to be present to welcome the person into a new life in Christ.

In my uncle's church regular temperature in Winter is -7 - -10oC. In most churches it does not cross 10oC. Liturgy baptisms certainly would be fun.
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2013, 10:50:03 AM »

We used to frequently have both chrismations and baptisms during Liturgy- for some reason I heard they're not allowed anymore?
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2013, 01:36:37 PM »

I was baptised during Liturgy. The liturgy and the Baptism are intertwined into the service, which I believe is called a Baptismal Divine Liturgy, which my priest has a blessing onto perform.

Before we did this, we had the baptisms on Sunday, right before Liturgy/Hours started, then proceeded with a liturgy afterwards(or so im told)

I was baptised in ROCOR, for reference.
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2013, 01:59:05 PM »

I was baptised during Liturgy. The liturgy and the Baptism are intertwined into the service, which I believe is called a Baptismal Divine Liturgy, which my priest has a blessing onto perform.

Is the blessing necessary in ROCOR?
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2013, 12:57:05 PM »

From what I understand in the early church, at least since the time that the catechumenate became a much longer process with baptisms being performed only once a year on Great Saturday, they were only performed during the Liturgy of Great Saturday (during the Liturgy itself mind you, not before the service.  This is a lot easier if there are two priests).  Marriages were also done during the Divine Liturgy and I actually have the Greek Divine Liturgy/marriage service saved somewhere and it is quite beautiful.  The prayers are litanies and said at various points throughout the liturgy.  For the entire duration of the service the groom and bride stand in front of the iconostasis, the groom in front of the icon of Christ and the bride in front of the icon of the Panagia, and instead of the common cup used during the separate marriage service they both receive Holy Communion.

You will notice that both the separate baptismal and marriage services begin with the priest exclaiming "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." as opposed to "Blessed is our God always now and forever....", which reflects the origins of these two services as taking place during the Liturgy.

I am not quite sure why these two services became separate from the Divine Liturgy or when exactly it occurred, but I know that it is very uncommon for a marriage to take place during the Liturgy these days.  I remember asking a friend in Greece about how common it is there and he told me about one instance where it happened, and how the relatives of both the bride and groom were complaining about how long the service was (which is quite possibly the reason that the separations from Liturgy occurred in the first place).
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2013, 01:33:01 PM »

AFAIK, the separation began with starting to allow mixed marriages (Justinian era?).
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2013, 02:31:16 PM »

AFAIK, the separation began with starting to allow mixed marriages (Justinian era?).

Before the Justinian Codex marriage in the Church was showing up to the church together and receiving communion together.
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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2013, 02:36:39 PM »

This is so new to me.

I wonder why, in Romania, both the Baptisms and Marriages are done privately on Saturdays. They are never part of the Divine Liturgies and not even Vespers. And only family and guests are present.
Hm.

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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2013, 02:53:10 PM »

This is so new to me.

I wonder why, in Romania, both the Baptisms and Marriages are done privately on Saturdays. They are never part of the Divine Liturgies and not even Vespers. And only family and guests are present.
Hm.

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2013, 02:54:05 PM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2013, 02:59:39 PM »

This is so new to me.

I wonder why, in Romania, both the Baptisms and Marriages are done privately on Saturdays. They are never part of the Divine Liturgies and not even Vespers. And only family and guests are present.
Hm.

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2013, 03:03:08 PM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2013, 03:05:25 PM »

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.

Because the ancient practice had become obsolete and was only restored recently.
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2013, 06:02:34 PM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?
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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2013, 07:52:57 PM »

My brother and I were chrismated during Liturgy and the communed at the end. I'm not sure if this was the regular practice or if the priest did it that way since we were relocating the next day and the priest was relocating to another parish soon after.

I may have seen one or two others chrismated at the start like my brother and I were. ISTM though that when a baptism is done that it is done separate (i.e. my daughter was baptized and my wife chrismated on a Saturday afternoon before Vespers).

Also, I have seen people become catechumens during the Liturgy as well.
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2013, 09:08:57 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2013, 09:37:48 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 09:48:07 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

That doesn't make someone immune from straying.  police
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2013, 09:48:44 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

I don't question "your" Orthodoxy and never have.  That's not my place.  I simply asked you a question to help you clarify your position AND help avoid more such questions in the future.  You chose to bite the hand that was trying to help you up.
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2013, 09:50:24 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.
Are you trying to use this thread as a medium for continuing your personal squabble from another thread? If so, then knock it off!
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2013, 09:55:24 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

I don't question "your" Orthodoxy and never have.  That's not my place.  I simply asked you a question to help you clarify your position AND help avoid more such questions in the future.  You chose to bite the hand that was trying to help you up.


Did not seem like it at the time. All I get here are attacks on my Orthodoxy. I should not have to continually have to somehow prove that I am cradle Orthodox. I have had discussions with many Priests and Bishops and have never been treated like I am here.
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2013, 09:57:17 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

At least Shultz was able to give you a direct answer...

Now back to topic,

I have not had the opportunity to see an Orthodox wedding yet (aside from a scene in Tchaikovsky by the BBC) and I was wondering what that process would be like? I have seen the newly weds come up during the Liturgy for some thing or another but I can't remember what for. Anybody have any clue as to why they go up during the Liturgy?

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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2013, 09:57:50 AM »

I don't know if this counts, but we had a couple who became catechumens right after Liturgy a few weeks ago.

We do it before the DL so that they can then go up for the prayers for the catechumens.
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2013, 09:59:27 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

That doesn't make someone immune from straying.  police

That is true. But nothing gives you the right to tell another Orthodox Christian that they are not Orthodox...  
You are derailing this thread by letting a personal squabble on another thread spill over into this one. That is a violation of our "Contain Conflict" rule, which I quote below.

From the Rules Page:
Quote
* Contain Conflict --  With religious discussion, disagreement is inevitable.  Please be civil and keep conflict (provided it's on topic) within the thread it was posted in.  If your conflict seems to be taking a thread off of its course, please start a new one.

I've already told you to knock this off. To drive home the point that you need to cool down and stop derailing threads with your ongoing feud with posters who question your Orthodoxy, I am putting you on post moderation for the next 20 days. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it to me via private message.

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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2013, 10:00:38 AM »

I don't know if this counts, but we had a couple who became catechumens right after Liturgy a few weeks ago.

We do it before the DL so that they can then go up for the prayers for the catechumens.

I was never formally made a catechumen, but my wife and daughter were made catechumens before Liturgy as well... Why do most of my experiences with Orthodoxy happen through my wife and daughter  Huh
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2013, 10:02:27 AM »

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.

Because the ancient practice had become obsolete and was only restored recently.

I was told here on this forum that ancient practices were not allowed to be brought back.  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2013, 10:02:42 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

I don't question "your" Orthodoxy and never have.  That's not my place.  I simply asked you a question to help you clarify your position AND help avoid more such questions in the future.  You chose to bite the hand that was trying to help you up.


Did not seem like it at the time. All I get here are attacks on my Orthodoxy. I should not have to continually have to somehow prove that I am cradle Orthodox. I have had discussions with many Priests and Bishops and have never been treated like I am here.

Because you have a huge chip on your shoulder.  Go back and re-read with a clear head.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2013, 10:07:27 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.

In my church, since Baptism, Chrismation, and the Divine Liturgy are not private services but services of the entire congregation, they cannot be "part of the whole service." It is true that Chrismation immediately follows Baptism, but unless they are done just before a DL, as it is done on Holy Saturday, then communion must await for the next DL.

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2013, 10:07:53 AM »

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.

Because the ancient practice had become obsolete and was only restored recently.

I was told here on this forum that ancient practices were not allowed to be brought back.  Wink

This Judaising is getting tiresome.
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »

Now that Yeshua HaDerekh is on post moderation for his refusal to contain conflict to just one thread, I ask formally that you all stop replying to his attempts to goad you into snapping back at him. Otherwise, you will receive your own warnings for your inability to contain your conflict with him.
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2013, 12:21:49 PM »

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

Why? It's the original practice.
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2013, 12:42:09 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.

In my church, since Baptism, Chrismation, and the Divine Liturgy are not private services but services of the entire congregation, they cannot be "part of the whole service." It is true that Chrismation immediately follows Baptism, but unless they are done just before a DL, as it is done on Holy Saturday, then communion must await for the next DL.

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2013, 12:44:04 PM »

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

Why? It's the original practice.

The original practice was that baptism took place outside of the church structure. Look at the historical models of churches and you will notice that the baptistry is built outside the church building. The only context within the liturgy is that the newly baptized where brought into the church during the chanting of "As Many as have been baptized..." before the Epsistle reading, and partake of communion for the first time during the liturgy. The actual baptism never took place inside the church itself during the ancient times. The Yale dig of the early Christian house church in Syria or Turkey (I can not remember which) even shows a separate room, that based on the mosaics present, would indicate the room was used for baptism and not liturgy.  
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2013, 01:44:10 PM »

BTW, I find it hard to see how Baptism or Chrismation can rightly fit into the context of the DL, as they are preceded by exorcisms and renouncing former heresies and Satan (with a spit--I love that part!). Thus, I am thinking they have to be done before the DL as a separate service.

Well, the rite of Baptism as we have it now crams up into one ceremony different things that catechumens would have experienced over a larger time span in Antiquity: the repeated exorcisms, the receiving of the Symbol (Creed), etc. Now that part (including the threefold recitation of the Creed) is done before the Liturgy begins.

IIRC on the Paschal Vigil the catechumens would have been baptized during the many readings of the Liturgy of St. Basil and then they joined the other faithful when "As many as have been baptized" was sung.

Whenever Baptism/Marriage is joined with the Divine Liturgy, the newly baptised or newlyweds are communed first, before the rest of the congregation. 
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2013, 01:48:51 PM »

Quote
Whenever Baptism/Marriage is joined with the Divine Liturgy, the newly baptised or newlyweds are communed first, before the rest of the congregation.

The newly-baptized are communed first even if they weren't baptized during a DL.
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2013, 01:50:51 PM »

I too have witnessed several sacraments reduced from communal to private character, to include marriage, baptism/Chrismation, and now we see communion (even when the person is not sick and at home). That does not make these practices laudable or normative. I can see how sacraments could be private to protect the parties from hostile authorities or when it is nearly impossible to conduct them in public. In this day and age, I don't think we need to continue to continue that sort of practice or to emulate the heterodox who consider baptisms and marriages to be for family and invited guests only. I also have a problem with several deviances from the ideal regarding Holy Communion--even though they have a pedigree of sorts: infrequent communion (once of four times a year); imposition of draconian preparation requirements on lay folks even if they commune regularly; private communion when a person is able to attend the DL; and, at times, some folks treating communion (or any Mystery) as magic. Regarding my very last point, we saw that on Pascha when some folks got in line and had to be turned away. They could not understand why, as baptized Orthodox, they could not be given communion without preparation, recent confession or fasting.
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2013, 01:56:30 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2013, 02:10:07 PM »

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

Yes. That's why for all the great feasts when baptisms were performed, there are more than 3 readings (Paroimiai) at the Vigils. While they were read, the Bishop and the other clergy would be baptizing; this also calls for a change of vestments: maybe hence the custom to change them at the Vigil Liturgy of Great Saturday. If there were less catechumens to be baptized, they wouldn't read all 15 of them (or how many they are).

As for the Wedding, it seems like the newlyweds communed with the Presanctified Gifts.

Here's the version of the baptismal Divine Liturgy approved by the Russian Church in 2002 (in Slavonic).
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2013, 02:44:39 PM »

Here's the version of the baptismal Divine Liturgy approved by the Russian Church in 2002 (in Slavonic).

Interesting. Thanks.

There's nothing wrong with these kind of innovations -- services like this change all of the time across Church history -- but it's certainly not returning to the "original." That's the only problem I have with these kind of "renovationist" or "reforming" trends: the conceit that they are someone returning to the "original" practice. The one thing you can be sure of is that NO ONE in the history of the Church ever did a baptism like this until this particular book was promulgated.

Same goes for the various attempts to recreate Paschal chrismations or baptisms. Christians in the East, inside and outside of the Empire, didn't do baptisms on Easter in the earliest centuries. That's a Roman and North African thing, exported to the East along with the celebration of Christmas in the fourth century. Eastern Christians baptized on Theophany (and had a unique theology of what Baptism was as a result).
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2013, 02:49:09 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.
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« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

Xeroupotamou has a beautiful new baptistry in the wing of the monastery that was recently rebuilt following a fire some years ago. Quite a few other monasteries have undergone reconstruction in recent years, so I'd be surprised if it was the only one.
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« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2013, 05:14:46 PM »

orthodox11, are there any greek monasteries you haven't been to?!
 Wink
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« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2013, 06:35:56 PM »

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

Xeroupotamou has a beautiful new baptistry in the wing of the monastery that was recently rebuilt following a fire some years ago. Quite a few other monasteries have undergone reconstruction in recent years, so I'd be surprised if it was the only one.

I was there for the feast of the Exaltation of the Cross a few years ago and remember seeing the construction going on, I had no idea that they were building a baptistry!  If you happen to have any photos of it I would love to see them.  Vatopaidi has also gone through quite a bit of reconstruction since Elder Joseph the Younger (memory eternal) moved in with his monks in the 80s but I don't recall seeing a baptistry there.
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« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2013, 11:51:46 PM »

At the end of a Liturgy on Sunday in a major English speaking Russian Patriarchal Church in Philadelphia I saw a marriage performed. The reason given was that the family actually wanted this because they like the liturgy service.

I thought it had a nice side, because sometimes people get married and other people in the parish don't know about it and the couple rarely (if ever) comes to church before and after.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 11:56:13 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2013, 02:08:10 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

That brings to mind an interesting question. If a Priest blesses part of the Aegean Sea for Baptism, is the whole sea blessed. What about someone who goes swimming in the Aegan Sea are thy Baptized?

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2013, 02:38:30 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

That brings to mind an interesting question. If a Priest blesses part of the Aegean Sea for Baptism, is the whole sea blessed. What about someone who goes swimming in the Aegan Sea are thy Baptized?

Fr. John W. Morris

That means there are a lot of Turks who are Orthodox and don't know it yet.
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« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2013, 03:28:56 PM »

you know, if you look at a lot of turks and see how they live in their culture and interract with people, they are basically orthodox Christians who converted in name only. so much Christian culture is left there.
same with egyptians. many of them didn't want to convert at all, just they were not quite strong enough to suffer and die for their faith. many of the good things in the Christian culture stayed on.
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« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2013, 03:35:20 PM »

I witnissed a baptism on Mt Athos which was done during the day a few hours after the Liturgy had already been celebrated, and the Newly Illumined received Communion from the reserved Holy Gifts.  The first time I communed after my baptism (as an adult as well) it was done the same way.  AFAIK the rule in the Greek churches is that the Newly Illumined is to receive Holy Communion immediately after Baptism and Christmation.  The person who has been baptized and christmated receives Communion and only after that the priest says the dismissal.  I don't see how this would make it a "private service" since anybody who wishes to can attend.

And as Michal has already said the original practice was for baptisms/chrismations to take place during the Liturgy, it was only later that they became separated.  IMO it is unfortunate that it is not commonly done this way anymore.

When I witnessed a baptism on Mount Athos, it took place in a separate baptistry during Orthros. The newly illumined was then brought to the church in time for the Divine Liturgy, stood at the front of the church wearing a white robe and holding a candle, and received Communion during the service.

I think that corresponds more or less to the ancient practice. As arimathea said, baptistries were located outside of the church structure. Moreover, baptisms, being a Mystery, would not have been conducted in the presence of catechumens and others who would have been at attendance at the Liturgy of the Word. The replacing of the Trisagion with "As many as have been baptised" shows that the baptism would already have been completed prior to the dismissal of the catechumens.

So while baptisms were not isolated from the Divine Liturgy, the idea that they took place during it seems to be erroneous.

Do you remember which monastery/skete did you witness the baptism?  I'm very curious because at the six monasteries that I visited on the Holy Mountain, including the one where I witnessed the baptism (Philotheou) there is no separate baptistry due to the fact that baptisms are a rather rare occurrence there because of the fact that they are monasteries and baptisms were probably even more rare there when the katholicons of the monasteries were actually built.  At Philotheou, the baptismal font is a giant metal basin on wheels that is rolled in the first section of the Nave (in front of the curtain) and the baptism is done there, except during the summer months when it is done right in the Aegean Sea.

That brings to mind an interesting question. If a Priest blesses part of the Aegean Sea for Baptism, is the whole sea blessed. What about someone who goes swimming in the Aegan Sea are thy Baptized?

Fr. John W. Morris

Sacraments are not magic. Or are you joking?
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« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2013, 08:54:25 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

My parish does no private baptisms or chrismations.  The only exception would be if it was an emergency baptism (we had one child born 3 months early and our priest baptized her right after she was born since we didn't know if she would survive).
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