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Author Topic: Sacraments during Liturgy  (Read 1909 times) Average Rating: 0
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Michał Kalina
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« on: April 28, 2013, 09:45:51 AM »

How common among you is to have baptisms/chrismations or marriages performed during Liturgy?

I've witnessed a few baptisms/chrismations but it's not the norm here. I've also heard about one marriage performed that way.
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 09:55:37 AM »

Every single Chrismation that I've seen here has been done during regular sunday liturgy but that might be due to the fact that they've all been adult converts. It could be that infants are baptized and chrismated privately.

AFAIK marriages are rarely celebrated during liturgies. I'm aware of two such instances.
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 10:12:34 AM »

In the Greek tradition, both weddings and baptisms are big affairs, so they are performed separately - baptisms usually in the late morning/early afternoon and weddings in the evening. I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2013, 10:56:13 AM »

I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.

Infants have no need to take Communion immediately afterwards?
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 10:58:58 AM »

we usually do baptism or chrismation just before raising of incense; before liturgy.
when there are 2 priests, and when everything is running late (!) baptism can take place during the raising of incense / first part of liturgy, but normally it should be done first.
it can be done separately, but this is not common.
weddings are often done separately, as it takes the bride at least 4 hours to do hair and make up, and that would be just too much fasting to have the liturgy late in the afternoon after the wedding!
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2013, 11:06:14 AM »

weddings are often done separately, as it takes the bride at least 4 hours to do hair and make up

LOL. Some things are universal.
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 11:17:35 AM »

I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.

Infants have no need to take Communion immediately afterwards?

Not necessarily. Our custom is taking the baby to church for Communion, together with the baptismal candle, for the three Sundays following baptism.
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 11:23:58 AM »

I've never attended a chrismation alone, but I can see it taking place during Liturgy, so that the newly received can take Communion immediately afterwards.

Infants have no need to take Communion immediately afterwards?

Not necessarily. Our custom is taking the baby to church for Communion, together with the baptismal candle, for the three Sundays following baptism.

While I respect your tradition and I don't want to suggest that any parish should do things differently than they're used to I still don't understand your idea. What's the difference between infants and adults? Both are sinful human beings after all so I fail to understand what's the theological reason for different customs for different age groups. Both desperately need to partake the Body and Blood of Christ so why to delay it?
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2013, 11:29:26 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2013, 11:34:58 AM »

As I said, I've never been to an adult chrismation. It might be very well done separately too, like infant baptisms.
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 11:42:10 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 12:09:04 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 12:12:06 PM »

I don't know if this counts, but we had a couple who became catechumens right after Liturgy a few weeks ago.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 12:27:24 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.

Thanks for your response, Michael.

I've never witnessed that.  All the private baptisms I have ever seen were celebrated in the parish church.

You do make a good point.  Without a tabernacle, there would be no reserved Sacrament from which to commune the newly baptized.

I guess if you had to wait until the next Divine Liturgy and bring the infant to church for his first communion it would not be the end of the world.  I know different local Churches have different customs.  You are in Poland, correct?
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 12:33:02 PM »

You are in Poland, correct?

Correct.
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 12:38:31 PM »


I would love to visit Poland someday.  A friend of mine recently took several trips there and he showed me some videos he took in Krakow.  It was just such a beautiful city.  I have studied some Polish history (mostly 19th and 20th century stuff), but I would like to learn the medieval history of Poland better.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 07:08:47 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 09:45:16 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2013, 10:04:12 AM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?

At my Baptism (as an adult) I received communion as part of the service. Baptism, Chrismation, and Communion are usually all part of the whole service.

What kind of service?
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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 10:16:34 AM »


I believe he is referring to Baptism.

During the service the individual get's baptized, chrismated and communes.
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 11:06:58 AM »

I don't know if this applies to the Byzantine rite, but in the West Syriac rite, we are taught that the Eucharist is the "Final" sacrament, which completes all other sacraments. So the other sacraments are usually performed either during or after the Qurbana, or with a reserved Eucharist.
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 11:18:54 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 03:58:49 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?

Can't they partake of the reserved Holy Gifts? The priest has the ability to take these to the baptism.

Why is it so important to participate in Eucharist directly after the baptism and not 3 days later?
The main reason is that receiving Communion is the fulfillment and completion of our Baptism.
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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 04:02:38 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.
I would say that private baptisms should be discouraged excepted in extreme circumstances.  During baptism we become incorporate in the Church, therefore anyone from the Church who wishes to should be able to be present to welcome the person into a new life in Christ.
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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2013, 05:20:33 PM »

Infants are not "delayed" Eucharist. If there is no Liturgy with baptism how they can receive It immediately afterwards?


If an infant baptism and chrismation is done privately, outside of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, then the priest communes the infant from the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle.  I've seen this done in Greek and Antiochian churches.

Most private batisms I've attended were performed at houses or in some chapels that had no tabernacles.
I would say that private baptisms should be discouraged excepted in extreme circumstances.  During baptism we become incorporate in the Church, therefore anyone from the Church who wishes to should be able to be present to welcome the person into a new life in Christ.

In my uncle's church regular temperature in Winter is -7 - -10oC. In most churches it does not cross 10oC. Liturgy baptisms certainly would be fun.
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2013, 10:50:03 AM »

We used to frequently have both chrismations and baptisms during Liturgy- for some reason I heard they're not allowed anymore?
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2013, 01:36:37 PM »

I was baptised during Liturgy. The liturgy and the Baptism are intertwined into the service, which I believe is called a Baptismal Divine Liturgy, which my priest has a blessing onto perform.

Before we did this, we had the baptisms on Sunday, right before Liturgy/Hours started, then proceeded with a liturgy afterwards(or so im told)

I was baptised in ROCOR, for reference.
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2013, 01:59:05 PM »

I was baptised during Liturgy. The liturgy and the Baptism are intertwined into the service, which I believe is called a Baptismal Divine Liturgy, which my priest has a blessing onto perform.

Is the blessing necessary in ROCOR?
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2013, 12:57:05 PM »

From what I understand in the early church, at least since the time that the catechumenate became a much longer process with baptisms being performed only once a year on Great Saturday, they were only performed during the Liturgy of Great Saturday (during the Liturgy itself mind you, not before the service.  This is a lot easier if there are two priests).  Marriages were also done during the Divine Liturgy and I actually have the Greek Divine Liturgy/marriage service saved somewhere and it is quite beautiful.  The prayers are litanies and said at various points throughout the liturgy.  For the entire duration of the service the groom and bride stand in front of the iconostasis, the groom in front of the icon of Christ and the bride in front of the icon of the Panagia, and instead of the common cup used during the separate marriage service they both receive Holy Communion.

You will notice that both the separate baptismal and marriage services begin with the priest exclaiming "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." as opposed to "Blessed is our God always now and forever....", which reflects the origins of these two services as taking place during the Liturgy.

I am not quite sure why these two services became separate from the Divine Liturgy or when exactly it occurred, but I know that it is very uncommon for a marriage to take place during the Liturgy these days.  I remember asking a friend in Greece about how common it is there and he told me about one instance where it happened, and how the relatives of both the bride and groom were complaining about how long the service was (which is quite possibly the reason that the separations from Liturgy occurred in the first place).
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2013, 01:33:01 PM »

AFAIK, the separation began with starting to allow mixed marriages (Justinian era?).
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2013, 02:31:16 PM »

AFAIK, the separation began with starting to allow mixed marriages (Justinian era?).

Before the Justinian Codex marriage in the Church was showing up to the church together and receiving communion together.
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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2013, 02:36:39 PM »

This is so new to me.

I wonder why, in Romania, both the Baptisms and Marriages are done privately on Saturdays. They are never part of the Divine Liturgies and not even Vespers. And only family and guests are present.
Hm.

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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2013, 02:53:10 PM »

This is so new to me.

I wonder why, in Romania, both the Baptisms and Marriages are done privately on Saturdays. They are never part of the Divine Liturgies and not even Vespers. And only family and guests are present.
Hm.

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2013, 02:54:05 PM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2013, 02:59:39 PM »

This is so new to me.

I wonder why, in Romania, both the Baptisms and Marriages are done privately on Saturdays. They are never part of the Divine Liturgies and not even Vespers. And only family and guests are present.
Hm.

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2013, 03:03:08 PM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2013, 03:05:25 PM »

I've seen quite a lot of Baptisms and Weddings done as part of Divine Liturgy on Saturdays or even Sundays. One such marriage was performed by a Bishop. In Romania, over the past 5 years or so. 

Nope...Not in my hometown. Not ever.
Strange. I'm curious why.

Because the ancient practice had become obsolete and was only restored recently.
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2013, 06:02:34 PM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?
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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2013, 07:52:57 PM »

My brother and I were chrismated during Liturgy and the communed at the end. I'm not sure if this was the regular practice or if the priest did it that way since we were relocating the next day and the priest was relocating to another parish soon after.

I may have seen one or two others chrismated at the start like my brother and I were. ISTM though that when a baptism is done that it is done separate (i.e. my daughter was baptized and my wife chrismated on a Saturday afternoon before Vespers).

Also, I have seen people become catechumens during the Liturgy as well.
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2013, 09:08:57 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2013, 09:37:48 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 09:48:07 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

That doesn't make someone immune from straying.  police
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2013, 09:48:44 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.

I don't question "your" Orthodoxy and never have.  That's not my place.  I simply asked you a question to help you clarify your position AND help avoid more such questions in the future.  You chose to bite the hand that was trying to help you up.
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2013, 09:50:24 AM »

Anecdotally, I was chrismated on Saturday night right before Vespers and received communion the first time on the follow day.  My godparents infant daughter was baptized and chrismated on a Saturday afternoon (long before Vespers).  As I recall, she received communion for the first time the following day.

Do you go to St Andrews?

Yes.

Did you know Fr. & Matushka June Woronovich?

Father passed before I became a parishoner and Matushka unfortunately passed away last year.

Well I have known them since I was born. So do you still question if I am Orthodox? I was baptized by a Bishop.
Are you trying to use this thread as a medium for continuing your personal squabble from another thread? If so, then knock it off!
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