Author Topic: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist  (Read 4513 times)

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« on: April 24, 2013, 07:54:11 PM »
I believe nonviolence is the Christian way.

I believe with the Church that all killing is sinful.

I believe with the Church that war is evil.

I reject the Just War theory, for nothing that involves the killing of innocent human beings – be it intentional or ancillary – can ever be just.

I believe with St. Basil the Great that, “Although the act of violence may seem required for the defense of the weak and innocent, it is never justifiable.”

I believe with Tertullian that, “In disarming Peter, Our Lord disarmed every soldier.”

I believe with Father Stanley Harakas that: “There is no ethical reasoning for war in the writings of the Greek Fathers. The Fathers wrote that only negative impacts arise from war. Even in unavoidable circumstances, the Fathers thought of war as the lesser of greater evils, but nonetheless evil. The term "just war" is not found in the writings of the Greek Fathers. The stance of the Fathers on war is pro-peace and an Orthodox "just war" theory does not exist.”

I believe in the admonition of St. Hippolytus: “A Christian is not to become a soldier. He is not to burden himself with the sin of blood. But if he has shed blood, he is not to partake of the mysteries, unless he is purified by a punishment, tears, and wailing. He is not to come forward deceitfully but in the fear of God.”

I believe that the Sermon on the Mount is to be literally embraced and not rationalized away as mere metaphor. (St. Matthew 5:3-12)

I believe that when Our Lord said “turn the other cheek,” He meant it. (St. Matthew 5:39)

I believe that God commands us to fight injustice and evil, and that He has equipped us with spiritual weapons that are much more powerful than weapons of the flesh. (Psalm 82:4; Ephesians 6:10-18)

I believe with St. John Chrysostom who writes: “Christians above all men are not permitted forcibly to correct the failings of those who sin. In our case, the wrong-doer must be made better, not by force, but by persuasion. The Christian’s labor is to make the dead live, not to make the living dead.”

I believe that our diligent, nonviolent, sacrificial confrontations with injustice and evil will never be in vain; for although the innocent may still suffer and die, God will avenge them in eternity. (Psalm 58:10)

I believe in a God who will recompense all evil, vindicate all righteousness, and reward the wicked and the just with divine due. (Galatians 6:7)

I believe that whenever mankind attempts to establish justice by use of violence, he inevitably slays the wheat with the tares and leaves a wake of innocent blood in the process. (St. Matthew 13:24-30)

I believe that violence is fundamentally opposed to the propagation of the Gospel, for the Christian is called to win the enemy’s life for the Kingdom not deny it the opportunity for repentance.

I believe in Our Lord’s command to which He attached a divine prophecy: “Put away your sword, for all who live by the sword will perish by the sword.” (St. Matthew 26:52)

I believe that the Cross negated and nullified the believer’s dependence on violence just as it negated and nullified the believer’s dependence on animal sacrifices. The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament was but a shadow of the final, atoning, sacrificial blood that was shed by Our Lord. Therefore I believe that reliance on violence is as unchristian as reliance upon the blood of bulls and goats. (Hebrews 10:1-10)

I believe that all human beings are icons of God and therefore nobody has the right to violate and destroy God’s holy image. (Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 2:10)

I believe it’s tragic that some Christians would reverence icons made of wood and paint while arguing that it is permissible to destroy icons infused with the very breath of God. (Genesis 2:7)

This is what I believe, and if I am in sin or error for refusing to kill, then I will take my chances with that on Judgment Day. Until then, I will continue to exclaim with all my fellow Orthodox Christian brethren:

“In Peace Let Us Pray To The Lord.”


Selam, +GMK+

"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2013, 08:01:50 PM »
We all know what you think.

What I would like to know is, what do you do? The most basic of such questions you refuse to answer. Those answers will show what you believe.

I believe in wasting a lot of time. I have the history to prove it.

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 08:07:19 PM »
I agree, however I disagree with your point on the OT.  

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html

Above is a Protestant article with occasional rapture nonsense so take it with a grain of salt, however I think it is otherwise mostly correct.

Cue the hateful comments...
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 08:31:03 PM »
We all know what you think.

What I would like to know is, what do you do?

Not enough, that's for sure. And if I tried to give you a resume of my pitiful works, you would surely condemn me for "triumphalism" or some such thing. And in confessing that I'm not doing enough, you will likely accuse me of false modesty. And as I type this I am anticipating that you will label me with a "persecution complex." So, to be honest brother, I gave up any illusion of satisfying you a long time ago. Therefore, unless you think it's false humility, I'll ask for your prayers and leave it at that.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 08:32:35 PM »
I agree, however I disagree with your point on the OT.  

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html

Above is a Protestant article with occasional rapture nonsense so take it with a grain of salt, however I think it is otherwise mostly correct.

Cue the hateful comments...

Thanks brother. Can you elaborate on your disagreement with my OT example? Perhaps I was mixing apples and oranges with that equation?


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 08:52:57 PM »
I agree, however I disagree with your point on the OT.  

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html

Above is a Protestant article with occasional rapture nonsense so take it with a grain of salt, however I think it is otherwise mostly correct.

Cue the hateful comments...

Thanks brother. Can you elaborate on your disagreement with my OT example? Perhaps I was mixing apples and oranges with that equation?


Selam
It's all covered mostly in the article (probably one of the first articles where I felt like applauding evangelicals)  Other than a few notable exceptions (the Canaanite genocide being the most obvious, even then archaeology has proven just how wicked their society was, their marriage ceremony alone involved every sexual sin listed in Leviticus 18, they even masturbated on an altar to offer their seed to moloch) every war in the OT was either completely necessary for the survival of ancient Israel (a 42-mile wide stretch of land bordering the Mediterranean), or was later rebuked by God.   Even the foreign nations were rebuked for their violence against each other in Amos 1 and 2.
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 09:10:21 PM »
I agree, however I disagree with your point on the OT.  

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html

Above is a Protestant article with occasional rapture nonsense so take it with a grain of salt, however I think it is otherwise mostly correct.

Cue the hateful comments...

Thanks brother. Can you elaborate on your disagreement with my OT example? Perhaps I was mixing apples and oranges with that equation?


Selam
It's all covered mostly in the article (probably one of the first articles where I felt like applauding evangelicals)  Other than a few notable exceptions (the Canaanite genocide being the most obvious, even then archaeology has proven just how wicked their society was, their marriage ceremony alone involved every sexual sin listed in Leviticus 18, they even masturbated on an altar to offer their seed to moloch) every war in the OT was either completely necessary for the survival of ancient Israel (a 42-mile wide stretch of land bordering the Mediterranean), or was later rebuked by God.   Even the foreign nations were rebuked for their violence against each other in Amos 1 and 2.

I stated: "The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament was but a shadow of the final, atoning, sacrificial blood that was shed by Our Lord." Is this what you disagree with?

I believe that when God commanded His children to kill in the OT, that was a righteous obedience. Just as His command to offer animal sacrifices was obeyed righteously. But my argument is that those things were still shadows of what was perfected in Christ. Maybe I didn't state it very well.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 09:17:42 PM »
I agree, however I disagree with your point on the OT.  

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html

Above is a Protestant article with occasional rapture nonsense so take it with a grain of salt, however I think it is otherwise mostly correct.

Cue the hateful comments...

Thanks brother. Can you elaborate on your disagreement with my OT example? Perhaps I was mixing apples and oranges with that equation?


Selam
It's all covered mostly in the article (probably one of the first articles where I felt like applauding evangelicals)  Other than a few notable exceptions (the Canaanite genocide being the most obvious, even then archaeology has proven just how wicked their society was, their marriage ceremony alone involved every sexual sin listed in Leviticus 18, they even masturbated on an altar to offer their seed to moloch) every war in the OT was either completely necessary for the survival of ancient Israel (a 42-mile wide stretch of land bordering the Mediterranean), or was later rebuked by God.   Even the foreign nations were rebuked for their violence against each other in Amos 1 and 2.

I stated: "The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament was but a shadow of the final, atoning, sacrificial blood that was shed by Our Lord." Is this what you disagree with?

I believe that when God commanded His children to kill in the OT, that was a righteous obedience. Just as His command to offer animal sacrifices was obeyed righteously. But my argument is that those things were still shadows of what was perfected in Christ. Maybe I didn't state it very well.


Selam
My only real issue with your statement was The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament as I don't really interpret the OT to being as violent as secularists love to claim.
"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 09:48:58 PM »
I agree, however I disagree with your point on the OT.  

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/war-holy-war.html

Above is a Protestant article with occasional rapture nonsense so take it with a grain of salt, however I think it is otherwise mostly correct.

Cue the hateful comments...

Thanks brother. Can you elaborate on your disagreement with my OT example? Perhaps I was mixing apples and oranges with that equation?


Selam
It's all covered mostly in the article (probably one of the first articles where I felt like applauding evangelicals)  Other than a few notable exceptions (the Canaanite genocide being the most obvious, even then archaeology has proven just how wicked their society was, their marriage ceremony alone involved every sexual sin listed in Leviticus 18, they even masturbated on an altar to offer their seed to moloch) every war in the OT was either completely necessary for the survival of ancient Israel (a 42-mile wide stretch of land bordering the Mediterranean), or was later rebuked by God.   Even the foreign nations were rebuked for their violence against each other in Amos 1 and 2.

I stated: "The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament was but a shadow of the final, atoning, sacrificial blood that was shed by Our Lord." Is this what you disagree with?

I believe that when God commanded His children to kill in the OT, that was a righteous obedience. Just as His command to offer animal sacrifices was obeyed righteously. But my argument is that those things were still shadows of what was perfected in Christ. Maybe I didn't state it very well.


Selam
My only real issue with your statement was The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament as I don't really interpret the OT to being as violent as secularists love to claim.

OK, I see. Thanks. I meant the phrase in it's literal sense, not to imply that it was wrong in the OT. I'll try to revise the statement to clarify that. I do want to emphasize that what God commanded in the OT was righteous and holy, even the commands to kill. I'm with you in that I don't like the hippyish condemnation of God's workings in the OT.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Ashman618

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 10:21:51 PM »
We all know what you think.

What I would like to know is, what do you do? The most basic of such questions you refuse to answer. Those answers will show what you believe.

I believe in wasting a lot of time. I have the history to prove it.

You waste time????? No!

I don't believe it, and the least you could do is give us an etymology lesson on the word time! Your slacking!

Offline William

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 10:26:34 PM »
How can you believe "with the Church" something which the church does not teach?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 10:31:15 PM »
I believe nonviolence is the Christian way.

I believe with the Church that all killing is sinful.

I believe with the Church that war is evil.

I reject the Just War theory, for nothing that involves the killing of innocent human beings – be it intentional or ancillary – can ever be just.

I believe with St. Basil the Great that, “Although the act of violence may seem required for the defense of the weak and innocent, it is never justifiable.”

I believe with Tertullian that, “In disarming Peter, Our Lord disarmed every soldier.”

I believe with Father Stanley Harakas that: “There is no ethical reasoning for war in the writings of the Greek Fathers. The Fathers wrote that only negative impacts arise from war. Even in unavoidable circumstances, the Fathers thought of war as the lesser of greater evils, but nonetheless evil. The term "just war" is not found in the writings of the Greek Fathers. The stance of the Fathers on war is pro-peace and an Orthodox "just war" theory does not exist.”

I believe in the admonition of St. Hippolytus: “A Christian is not to become a soldier. He is not to burden himself with the sin of blood. But if he has shed blood, he is not to partake of the mysteries, unless he is purified by a punishment, tears, and wailing. He is not to come forward deceitfully but in the fear of God.”

I believe that the Sermon on the Mount is to be literally embraced and not rationalized away as mere metaphor. (St. Matthew 5:3-12)

I believe that when Our Lord said “turn the other cheek,” He meant it. (St. Matthew 5:39)

I believe that God commands us to fight injustice and evil, and that He has equipped us with spiritual weapons that are much more powerful than weapons of the flesh. (Psalm 82:4; Ephesians 6:10-18)

I believe with St. John Chrysostom who writes: “Christians above all men are not permitted forcibly to correct the failings of those who sin. In our case, the wrong-doer must be made better, not by force, but by persuasion. The Christian’s labor is to make the dead live, not to make the living dead.”

I believe that our diligent, nonviolent, sacrificial confrontations with injustice and evil will never be in vain; for although the innocent may still suffer and die, God will avenge them in eternity. (Psalm 58:10)

I believe in a God who will recompense all evil, vindicate all righteousness, and reward the wicked and the just with divine due. (Galatians 6:7)

I believe that whenever mankind attempts to establish justice by use of violence, he inevitably slays the wheat with the tares and leaves a wake of innocent blood in the process. (St. Matthew 13:24-30)

I believe that violence is fundamentally opposed to the propagation of the Gospel, for the Christian is called to win the enemy’s life for the Kingdom not deny it the opportunity for repentance.

I believe in Our Lord’s command to which He attached a divine prophecy: “Put away your sword, for all who live by the sword will perish by the sword.” (St. Matthew 26:52)

I believe that the Cross negated and nullified the believer’s dependence on violence just as it negated and nullified the believer’s dependence on animal sacrifices. The shedding of blood that was permissible in the Old Testament was but a shadow of the final, atoning, sacrificial blood that was shed by Our Lord. Therefore I believe that reliance on violence is as unchristian as reliance upon the blood of bulls and goats. (Hebrews 10:1-10)

I believe that all human beings are icons of God and therefore nobody has the right to violate and destroy God’s holy image. (Genesis 1:27; Ephesians 2:10)

I believe it’s tragic that some Christians would reverence icons made of wood and paint while arguing that it is permissible to destroy icons infused with the very breath of God. (Genesis 2:7)

This is what I believe, and if I am in sin or error for refusing to kill, then I will take my chances with that on Judgment Day. Until then, I will continue to exclaim with all my fellow Orthodox Christian brethren:

“In Peace Let Us Pray To The Lord.”


Selam, +GMK+



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Offline Ashman618

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 10:32:50 PM »
Let me tell you what I believe..... I believe if your serious about saving Morphius your gunna need my help, I believe Morphius means more to me then he does to you, and as the ranking officer on this ship I believe you can go to hell cuz your not going anywhere else without me  :P

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 10:51:00 PM »
How can you believe "with the Church" something which the church does not teach?

Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?



Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 11:32:22 PM »
We all know what you think.

What I would like to know is, what do you do?

Not enough, that's for sure. And if I tried to give you a resume of my pitiful works, you would surely condemn me for "triumphalism" or some such thing. And in confessing that I'm not doing enough, you will likely accuse me of false modesty. And as I type this I am anticipating that you will label me with a "persecution complex." So, to be honest brother, I gave up any illusion of satisfying you a long time ago. Therefore, unless you think it's false humility, I'll ask for your prayers and leave it at that.


Selam

I've asked you, do you work?

No answer yet. I am curious how one lives outside Babylon.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 11:38:22 PM »
Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?

Selam

Here's the issue, you're opinion is just that, an opinion, It is a teaching that can be found in our church being taught by some of our saints and found demonstrated in their lives, but it is not the only teaching that can be found and so not the teaching of the Church.

We find in the NT where St John never asked the soldiers to stop being soldiers when they asked what they needed to do to live holy lives. Christ never asked the centurion to stop being a soldier, but praised him for his faith. St Peter never told Cornelius that he needed to stop being a soldier as a prerequisite to his conversion. St Paul also said the government does not use use the sword in vain. We have a number of saints (some pretty prominent) whose military service did not exclude them from the Church or living holy lives. We have catechisms that link the verse about laying down one's life with military service. We have military chaplains whose job it is to bless and serve (sacramentally) those who serve in the military. We also have female saints (at least one that know of) that have chosen to end their own lives in suicide than to allow others to do certain types of physical harm to their bodies.

I'm not denying that people who commit evil are still made in the image and likeness of God, that any violence done will not have to be accounted for, or that violence she be one's preferred or first course of action in a situation where violence can be avoided. I am saying that to hold such an -extreme stance on non-violence and hold it up as the Church teaching in spite of contrary Church teaching is, at best, not representative of Church teaching as a whole.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2013, 12:12:55 AM »
Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?

Selam

Here's the issue, you're opinion is just that, an opinion, It is a teaching that can be found in our church being taught by some of our saints and found demonstrated in their lives, but it is not the only teaching that can be found and so not the teaching of the Church.

We find in the NT where St John never asked the soldiers to stop being soldiers when they asked what they needed to do to live holy lives. Christ never asked the centurion to stop being a soldier, but praised him for his faith. St Peter never told Cornelius that he needed to stop being a soldier as a prerequisite to his conversion. St Paul also said the government does not use use the sword in vain. We have a number of saints (some pretty prominent) whose military service did not exclude them from the Church or living holy lives. We have catechisms that link the verse about laying down one's life with military service. We have military chaplains whose job it is to bless and serve (sacramentally) those who serve in the military. We also have female saints (at least one that know of) that have chosen to end their own lives in suicide than to allow others to do certain types of physical harm to their bodies.

I'm not denying that people who commit evil are still made in the image and likeness of God, that any violence done will not have to be accounted for, or that violence she be one's preferred or first course of action in a situation where violence can be avoided. I am saying that to hold such an -extreme stance on non-violence and hold it up as the Church teaching in spite of contrary Church teaching is, at best, not representative of Church teaching as a whole.

I've never indicated that the Church teaches that all Christians must be pacifists. I hope that one day this may become an official doctrine of the Church, but until then I won't claim that it is. I always find it interesting when pacifism is labeled "extreme." Most people who think nonviolence is extreme have probably never seen the extreme horrors of war, abortion, and other heinous forms of intentional killing. But if affirming the sanctity of all human life is extreme, then consider me an extremist.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2013, 12:13:54 AM »
We all know what you think.

What I would like to know is, what do you do?

Not enough, that's for sure. And if I tried to give you a resume of my pitiful works, you would surely condemn me for "triumphalism" or some such thing. And in confessing that I'm not doing enough, you will likely accuse me of false modesty. And as I type this I am anticipating that you will label me with a "persecution complex." So, to be honest brother, I gave up any illusion of satisfying you a long time ago. Therefore, unless you think it's false humility, I'll ask for your prayers and leave it at that.


Selam

I've asked you, do you work?

No answer yet. I am curious how one lives outside Babylon.

Yes, I work.

I don't live outside of Babylon. I'm smack in the middle of it.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline William

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2013, 01:03:12 AM »
How can you believe "with the Church" something which the church does not teach?

Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?



Selam

"I believe with the Church that all killing is sinful. "

By the way, where is your St. Basil quote from? Because he says the opposite in the Rudder.
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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2013, 11:28:34 AM »
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Offline Fotina02

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2013, 11:57:51 AM »
Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?

Selam

Here's the issue, you're opinion is just that, an opinion, It is a teaching that can be found in our church being taught by some of our saints and found demonstrated in their lives, but it is not the only teaching that can be found and so not the teaching of the Church.

We find in the NT where St John never asked the soldiers to stop being soldiers when they asked what they needed to do to live holy lives. Christ never asked the centurion to stop being a soldier, but praised him for his faith. St Peter never told Cornelius that he needed to stop being a soldier as a prerequisite to his conversion. St Paul also said the government does not use use the sword in vain. We have a number of saints (some pretty prominent) whose military service did not exclude them from the Church or living holy lives. We have catechisms that link the verse about laying down one's life with military service. We have military chaplains whose job it is to bless and serve (sacramentally) those who serve in the military. We also have female saints (at least one that know of) that have chosen to end their own lives in suicide than to allow others to do certain types of physical harm to their bodies.

I'm not denying that people who commit evil are still made in the image and likeness of God, that any violence done will not have to be accounted for, or that violence she be one's preferred or first course of action in a situation where violence can be avoided. I am saying that to hold such an -extreme stance on non-violence and hold it up as the Church teaching in spite of contrary Church teaching is, at best, not representative of Church teaching as a whole.

I've never indicated that the Church teaches that all Christians must be pacifists. I hope that one day this may become an official doctrine of the Church, but until then I won't claim that it is. I always find it interesting when pacifism is labeled "extreme." Most people who think nonviolence is extreme have probably never seen the extreme horrors of war, abortion, and other heinous forms of intentional killing. But if affirming the sanctity of all human life is extreme, then consider me an extremist.


Selam

Are you saying the official doctrine of the Church is deficient?

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2013, 05:24:30 PM »
How can you believe "with the Church" something which the church does not teach?

Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?



Selam

"I believe with the Church that all killing is sinful. "

By the way, where is your St. Basil quote from? Because he says the opposite in the Rudder.

The canons clearly teach that killing is evil. Sometimes killing in self defense or defense of others is a lesser evil, in other words it is not the same as murder. But it is an evil still. If I am mistaken then please provide me with canons or teachings from the fathers that state that killing is not an evil.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 05:30:26 PM »
Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?

Selam

Here's the issue, you're opinion is just that, an opinion, It is a teaching that can be found in our church being taught by some of our saints and found demonstrated in their lives, but it is not the only teaching that can be found and so not the teaching of the Church.

We find in the NT where St John never asked the soldiers to stop being soldiers when they asked what they needed to do to live holy lives. Christ never asked the centurion to stop being a soldier, but praised him for his faith. St Peter never told Cornelius that he needed to stop being a soldier as a prerequisite to his conversion. St Paul also said the government does not use use the sword in vain. We have a number of saints (some pretty prominent) whose military service did not exclude them from the Church or living holy lives. We have catechisms that link the verse about laying down one's life with military service. We have military chaplains whose job it is to bless and serve (sacramentally) those who serve in the military. We also have female saints (at least one that know of) that have chosen to end their own lives in suicide than to allow others to do certain types of physical harm to their bodies.

I'm not denying that people who commit evil are still made in the image and likeness of God, that any violence done will not have to be accounted for, or that violence she be one's preferred or first course of action in a situation where violence can be avoided. I am saying that to hold such an -extreme stance on non-violence and hold it up as the Church teaching in spite of contrary Church teaching is, at best, not representative of Church teaching as a whole.

I've never indicated that the Church teaches that all Christians must be pacifists. I hope that one day this may become an official doctrine of the Church, but until then I won't claim that it is. I always find it interesting when pacifism is labeled "extreme." Most people who think nonviolence is extreme have probably never seen the extreme horrors of war, abortion, and other heinous forms of intentional killing. But if affirming the sanctity of all human life is extreme, then consider me an extremist.


Selam

Are you saying the official doctrine of the Church is deficient?

Nope. But perhaps our understanding of Church teaching is deficient. I for one certainly don't presume to fully understand every Church teaching. I am always learning (hopefully). My point has always been that if the Church teaches that all killing is evil, then why do we attempt to rationalize and justify it? It seems that this is the only issue where we rationalize away the clear teachings of the Church. We don't do this with adultery, for example. We don't say: "The Church teaches that all adultery is sinful, but there may be situations or circumstances where adultery is a lesser evil and so therefore we can't be extremists and adopt a complete "non-adultery" philosophy. Sounds absurd doesn't it? But for some reason we apply this logic to the very destruction of living icons of God.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline Red A.

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 06:55:07 PM »
Why non violence? Why single out this virtue and not another? Why single out any virtue at all?

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 07:18:48 PM »
Why non violence? Why single out this virtue and not another? Why single out any virtue at all?

Cause Gebre isn't all powerful? Finitude. Regardless of what he thinks I think, this is a place where I think he is correct but likely duplicitous in his words and perhaps hypocritical in them.

If one is going to be a prophet, you better live it to some degree that make yourself a sign in yourself. And you can't work in Babylon without killing someone.

It's all well and good to say what he does above and I do think it is madness to read the NT and think Christ would be blessing machine guns and reading people resorting to a hermeneutics of absence: Christ didn't tell x y, so that means y is OK.

It's seems pretty obvious the early Church quickly altered when it became married with the structured political power of the time. This cannot be denied.

But to Gebre's point about why the compromise on killing and nothing else, I am not so sure there wasn't from day 534 or whatever. Look at the abrogation of the prohibition on divorce within the NT itself. There is your obvious example of a change of stance on adultery.

To go much further would go against the rules as I understand them here about politics.
 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 07:19:19 PM by orthonorm »

Offline Red A.

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »
Why not forgiveness? The world seems to be very short on forgiveness.

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 07:35:49 PM »
Why non violence? Why single out this virtue and not another? Why single out any virtue at all?

I think if you saw the scope of my posts you would see that I have addressed many topics and issues. But I do believe that all the Christian commandments and virtues revolve around life affirmation. The two great commandments are love for God and love for others. In fact, these commandments are inseparable. So if we fail to respect our fellow man as the image of God, then the other virtues don't really mean much.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 07:51:43 PM »
We don't do this with adultery, for example. We don't say: "The Church teaches that all adultery is sinful, but there may be situations or circumstances where adultery is a lesser evil and so therefore we can't be extremists and adopt a complete "non-adultery" philosophy. Sounds absurd doesn't it?

Compare our definition of "adultery" in the context of divorce and re-marriage with that of Rome.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 08:11:06 PM »
Why not forgiveness? The world seems to be very short on forgiveness.

I agree. You should write something on that. I'd love to read it. It's one of the many areas that I fall very short in in my Christian life. And BTW, peacemaking in one of those areas too. So I'm preaching to myself first and foremost. I try to articulate my convictions so that I can better strive to live them out.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 08:29:27 PM »
I don't live outside of Babylon. I'm smack in the middle of it.


Selam
Jackson, Mississippi is more like the border/outskirts of Babylon.  You should come down here to New Orleans, this is like the capital of it. :P
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Offline William

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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 10:41:11 PM »
How can you believe "with the Church" something which the church does not teach?

Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?



Selam

"I believe with the Church that all killing is sinful. "

By the way, where is your St. Basil quote from? Because he says the opposite in the Rudder.

The canons clearly teach that killing is evil. Sometimes killing in self defense or defense of others is a lesser evil, in other words it is not the same as murder. But it is an evil still. If I am mistaken then please provide me with canons or teachings from the fathers that state that killing is not an evil.


Selam

You forgot to tell me where your St. Basil quote is from.

The onus is on you to prove that "the canons clearly teach that killing is evil." They actually teach the opposite. St. Athanasius' epistle to Amun even says that killing in war is praiseworthy.
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Re: Mission Statement of A Christian Pacifist
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 11:08:06 PM »
How can you believe "with the Church" something which the church does not teach?

Which statement is not in accordance with Church teaching?



Selam

"I believe with the Church that all killing is sinful. "

By the way, where is your St. Basil quote from? Because he says the opposite in the Rudder.

The canons clearly teach that killing is evil. Sometimes killing in self defense or defense of others is a lesser evil, in other words it is not the same as murder. But it is an evil still. If I am mistaken then please provide me with canons or teachings from the fathers that state that killing is not an evil.


Selam

You forgot to tell me where your St. Basil quote is from.

The onus is on you to prove that "the canons clearly teach that killing is evil." They actually teach the opposite. St. Athanasius' epistle to Amun even says that killing in war is praiseworthy.

I think I found that quote on Orthodoxwiki.

Here is another statement from St. Basil:
"Our fathers did not consider killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that their hands are not clean."

Please notice that I never said that the Church teaches that all killing is murder. There is a clear distinction between murder and killing in self defense or defense of others. Defensive killing is not an evil equivalent to murder. It is a lesser evil, but an evil still. In fact, St. Basil views it as such a serious sin that he advises those who kill even in defense of others to refrain from communion for three years.

This article examines the St. Athanasius quote in its proper context:
http://www.incommunion.org/2006/02/19/st-basil-on-war-and-repentance/


Selam
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 11:08:44 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx