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Author Topic: India, Ethopia, Gagarin  (Read 3757 times) Average Rating: 1
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« on: April 22, 2013, 12:14:47 PM »

I think the confusion has to do with how ancient Christians conceived geography - the Aithiopes (those with faces scorched by the sun) were thought to be at the southernmost limit of the world. They must have had a vague idea that India was someplace around there too.   
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 08:38:14 PM »

I think the confusion has to do with how ancient Christians conceived geography

I do not agree.
To dismiss the association of India with Aethiopia as an alleged geographical ignorance of ancient Christians is an assumption without any foundation.

As the famous author of a sixth century Byzantine flat earth cosmography, Cosmas Indicopleustes of Egypt is associated with ancient Christian geography as much as anyone, and he personally visited both Aethiopia and the India (Sri Lanka) among other places as a merchant mariner in the Indian Ocean (in the time of Roman Emperor Justinian) before becoming a monk at Saint Catherine's in Sinai. 

By the time of the Roman Emperor Justinian, the distinction between India in Asia and Aethiopia in east Africa was well known even to Greeks who were the most ignorant and least ancient empire of the pre-Roman world.  The ancient Christian cosmographer Cosmas Indicopleustes also states this as has more recently, Martin Bernal.  http://www.blackathena.com/outline.php 

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.  Considering that Hamitic peoples were the founders and masters of technology and the practical sciences, the ocean between India and Aethiopia had never obstructed their commerce. 
Writers as diverse as NAACP founder W.E.B. DuBois and creation scientist Arthur Custance have come to the same conclusion about the Hamitic races and technology. 
http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_I/Chapter3.html

And btw, if there was some historical event in Ethiopia at the core of this tradition, how would that exclude heavy borrowing from the Buddha's story in the hagiographical account?
"But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."
- Saint Paul (1 Timothy 4:7)

If you want to find the disciples of the Buddhists, you can look to the Greek philosophers.  One of the most influential was Pythagoras who went to India from where he brought the doctrine of metempsychosis (associated with reincarnation) to the west.  I believe that Hippolytus wrote that one of Pythagoras's students founded the Druids.
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 11:25:49 AM »

I think the confusion has to do with how ancient Christians conceived geography

I do not agree.
To dismiss the association of India with Aethiopia as an alleged geographical ignorance of ancient Christians is an assumption without any foundation.

You also assume a wide reception of Cosma's Topography. That might have been the case after the 6/7th century. However, the Axumite Kingdom had been an important link in the trade between India and the Roman Empire from the 1st century onwards. So, it may well be that in the imagination of some of the ancients Ethiopia and India were at least neighboring countries, if not jumbled together.

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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 12:00:03 PM »

it may well be that in the imagination of some of the ancients Ethiopia and India were at least neighboring countries, if not jumbled together.

You're saying that some ancient people were ignorant of Indian Ocean geography even while merchants of their own times travelled those seas?
Again, where is the evidence of an alleged preponderant ignorance of geography?
That's like claiming some redneck rural Texas believes that South America is physically connected to Africa.
Out general state of knowledge are not represented by the most ignorant segments of the population.

You also assume a wide reception of Cosma's Topography. That might have been the case after the 6/7th century. However, the Axumite Kingdom had been an important link in the trade between India and the Roman Empire from the 1st century onwards.
Another well known document is the 'Periplus of the Erythraen Sea' written by a merchant mariner who travelled the Indian Ocean andthe Red Sea during the first century after Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

Both the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes and the Periplus of the Erythraen Sea show that mariners in both the first century after Christ and in the sixth century after Christ had a nautical knowledge of the Indian Ocean which was detailed enough for travel to both Aethiopia and India.  Both of these documents are evidence of accurate knowledge by the ancients - not ignornace.
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 12:09:23 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 12:11:17 PM »

You're saying that some ancient people were ignorant of Indian Ocean geography even while merchants of their own times travelled those seas?

Is that so preposterous?

Why should a hagiographer have the knowledge of a seafaring merchant?

That's like claiming some redneck rural Texas believes that South America is physically connected to Africa.
Out general state of knowledge are not represented by the most ignorant segments of the population.

In another day and age the knowledge of a modern "redneck rural" Texan could have passed for brilliant - information was not always as readily available (even to literate people) as it has become in the modern age. 

Another well known document is the 'Periplus of the Erythraen Sea' written by a merchant mariner who travelled the Indian Ocean andthe Red Sea during the first century after Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

Both the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes and the Periplus of the Erythraen Sea show that mariners in both the first century after Christ and in the sixth century after Christ had a nautical knowledge of the Indian Ocean which was detailed enough for travel to both Aethiopia and India.  Both of these documents are evidence of accurate knowledge by the ancients - not ignornace.

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right? The title of the work you refer to attests to it: to get to India, you just had to sail around the one big "Red Sea"...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:19:30 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 12:29:59 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.


"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:41:34 PM by Dionysii » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 12:41:05 PM »

Ethiopians and Indians both eat samosas. Case closed.
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 12:44:59 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.


"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse. 

Mind = blown

Also, Pseudo-Callisthenes
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.


"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse. 

Sounds like good material for another Sinbad movie.
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 12:55:52 PM »

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right?
I am confident that statement is not the sharpest knife in your arsenal.  

I was in the Bab al Mandeb straight last year actually during a visit to Djibouti with the military.
I discovered that Osama bin Laden's brother intends to construct a bridge from Yemen to Africa.

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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 01:08:39 PM »

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right?
I am confident that statement is not the sharpest knife in your arsenal. 

Quote
In the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, written in the 1st century AD, as well as in some ancient maps, the name of the sea refers to the whole area of the northwestern Indian Ocean, including the Arabian Sea.

In centuries past the name 'Erythraean Sea' was applied by cartographers to the NW part of the Indian Ocean, mainly the area around Socotra, between Cape Guardafui and the coast of Hadhramaut. This name has now become obsolete and the name Gulf of Aden is presently used, although for a smaller area. In maps where the NW Indian Ocean is named thus, the Red Sea appears as "Arabian Gulf".

The name "Erythraean Sea" was used as well to refer to some gulfs attached to the Indian Ocean, specifically, the Persian Gulf.

As a name for the Red Sea, especially after the 19th century. The modern country of Eritrea was named after this ancient Greek name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythraean_Sea

Otherwise, I am aware that there was a time when the Arabian Peninsula was connected to Africa.
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 01:14:12 PM »

In the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, written in the 1st century AD, as well as in some ancient maps, the name of the sea refers to the whole area of the northwestern Indian Ocean, including the Arabian Sea.

Bab al Mandeb is the straight which separates the Red Sea from the Indian Ocean. 
(I went scuba diving last year off of Moucha island in the Gulf of Tadjoura just to the southwest.)
In the photograph of Bab al Mandeb straight posted above, the Red Sea is north of Bab Al Mandeb.
South of Bab al Mandeb is the Indian Ocean.

You believe ancient mariners could not tell the difference because of the word "Erythraean".  Got it.
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 01:21:37 PM »

And you believe mariners back then could not tell the difference because of the word "Erythraean".  Got it.

I'm sure mariners could tell them apart and might have called them differently, but my point was exactly that geographic names often got confused in Antiquity (i.e. different people used them to refer to different places).

Conversely, the Yam Suf the Hebrews crossed in Exodus got translated as Erythra Thalassa in Greek. Today this identification is contested.   
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 06:34:22 PM »

"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse.  

Pseudo-Callisthenes

To say that Callisthenes did not write this book merely because the word "pseudo" appears on the cover of a modern translation is to uncritically accept the opinion of modern infidels over that of Church Fathers as well as ancient and medieval Christian writers who wrote about Alexandre the Great and used his book as their source.  

You also assume a wide reception of Cosma's Topography.
The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 06:36:18 PM by Dionysii » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 07:15:08 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2013, 07:26:16 PM »

The fourth century cosmography of Aethicus of Istria edited by Saint Jerome was taught by Archbishop Hrabanus Maurus, the teacher of Germany, in ninth century Carolingian europe.  
William Smith's nineteenth century Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography asserted the traditional fourth century date for the cosmographer Aethicus of Istria.  Twentieth century infidels have arbitrarily reassigned this writer to the eighth century.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=hrabanus+maurus+aethicus&source=bl&ots=glk0G_M6CU&sig=VMFXxP9UzWmr2qGh52vkJJTIE_c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pGh4Uf32D8eOrQGH2YDYAg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hrabanus%20maurus%20aethicus&f=false

An English translation of Hrabanus Maurus's Encyclopaedia has just been published in two volumes.
http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/priscilla-throop/hrabanus-maurus-de-universo-volume-one/paperback/product-4500129.html
http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/priscilla-throop/hrabanus-maurus-de-universo-volume-two/paperback/product-4809765.html

The flat earth beliefs of Cosmas Indicopleuestes epitomized the perspective of the ancient world generally and ancient Christians especially.
The refusal of modern writers to accept this and their efforts to minimize and portray him as an eccentricity indicates only their own stupidity and close mindedness.
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2013, 07:27:15 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
Istria is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2013, 07:57:51 PM »

My new most looked forward to discussions on stuff I don't understand around here:

Anything between Dionysii and Romaios.
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2013, 07:59:29 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
Istria is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.

Just FYI, he's referring to user ialmisry whose first name is Isa.
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2013, 08:04:34 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
Istria is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.

Just FYI, he's referring to user ialmisry whose first name is Isa.

Who I like to think is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.

What a world of wonder that would be!

Dionysii, if you don't know ialmisry has a map for everything and forgot today more than I will ever known about geography and history and does so in about seven languages.
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2013, 08:06:14 PM »

I am aware that there was a time when the Arabian Peninsula was connected to Africa.
If you mean a physical land connection between them, then such a theory sounds like uniformitarianism which is the geological equivalent of evolution.

If you mean a historical connection between the peoples on either side, then I would agree.
The first dynasty to rule Aethiopia after the flood of Noah was the Hamitic dynasty of Punt which was based in Meroe in modern Sudan.  

The Sabeans of west Arabia in modern Yemen were Semitic descendents of Sheba whose grandmother was Keturah, the concubine of Abraham.
The second historical dynasty of Aethiopia began when these Sabeans invaded the Horn of Africa in 1985 B.C. and established a new dynasty and capitol that ruled Aethiopia from Axum which remained the capitol many centuries into the Christian era.  
The Tigrayans of northern Aethiopia are descendents of these Semitic Sabeans.  The biblical Queen Makeda of Sheba was one of them.
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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 01:28:56 AM »

I am aware that there was a time when the Arabian Peninsula was connected to Africa.
If you mean a physical land connection between them, then such a theory sounds like uniformitarianism which is the geological equivalent of evolution.

If you mean a historical connection between the peoples on either side, then I would agree.

I mean it both ways - some scientists believe that that is how homo sapiens crossed from Africa into Asia.

The Ethiopian (Semitic) languages are closely related to old South Arabian.
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 01:38:48 AM »

My new most looked forward to discussions on stuff I don't understand around here:

Anything between Dionysii and Romaios.

I must admit I'm not terribly keen on ancient geography, but I do have a hunch that Dionysii takes for granted the historicity of lots of mythical stories and believes all ancients are dead accurate on geography.   
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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 02:40:23 AM »

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right?
I am confident that statement is not the sharpest knife in your arsenal.  

I was in the Bab al Mandeb straight last year actually during a visit to Djibouti with the military.
I discovered that Osama bin Laden's brother intends to construct a bridge from Yemen to Africa.


Djibouti, I've been there.  No desire to go back.  Maybe it is nicer these days, but not much fun when I was there.
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« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2013, 02:42:32 AM »

Have we all concluded Buddha is not an Orthodox Saint explaining why all of the other discussion is taking place?
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 04:13:46 AM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 11:55:56 AM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
Yes, that is what I believe.
I made a couple posts on that subject in James' thread on the cosmos:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html
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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 12:01:47 PM »

The Sabeans of west Arabia in modern Yemen were Semitic descendents of Sheba whose grandmother was Keturah, the concubine of Abraham.
The second historical dynasty of Aethiopia began when these Sabeans invaded the Horn of Africa in 1985 B.C. and established a new dynasty and capitol that ruled Aethiopia from Axum which remained the capitol many centuries into the Christian era.

The Ethiopian (Semitic) languages are closely related to old South Arabian.

Yes, it makes sense. These two statements correspond with each other.
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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 12:04:20 PM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact. 
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
Yes, that is what I believe.
I made a couple posts on that subject in James' thread on the cosmos:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html

How do you explain how ships appear and disappear over the horizon? Or how airplanes need to compensate for traveling in a curved line when it comes to refueling? Or you know, the fact that we've been into space and seen how the earth curves? I'm not talking about the Felix Baumgartener fish-eye lens shot, but shots from the International Space Station (which is visible from the ground using a telescope, BTW). Even in the original Felix Baumgartener picture, you can still see the Earth curve, it's just not as overt. Do you just ignore all of that?
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« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 12:25:39 PM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity. Those adhering to a flat earth hypothesis are the exception. A spherical model of the earth can be found in St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory Palamas' 150 Chapters, for example.
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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 12:56:30 PM »

Have we all concluded Buddha is not an Orthodox Saint explaining why all of the other discussion is taking place?
Yes.
If the story is confirmed to have indeed taken place in Aethiopia, then the Buddhist theory is that much more absurd.

The main question is precisely when and where did Joasaph reign as king?
To that end, the identification of India as inner Aethiopia is interesting. 
I will have to look into the history of King Ezana and fourth century Aethiopia a bit more.

"In the time of Constantine the Great there lived in India a pagan king named Abenner, who had only one son, Joasaph"
http://www.roca.org/OA/64/64p.htm
I wonder from what source they know that it was during the time of Saint Constantine the Great.
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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2013, 01:03:07 PM »

Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity. Those adhering to a flat earth hypothesis are the exception. A spherical model of the earth can be found in St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory Palamas' 150 Chapters, for example.
Aristotelian ideas dominated the Franks during the late middle ages since it was inherent in Thomism.

As to Saint Basil, you are mistaken. He also knew the earth to be flat. 
When he wrote of a spherical cosmos, he understood the firmament to be spherical since the heaven is domed.
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2013, 01:06:33 PM »

Why would Ethiopia have been identified with India?

It happened quite often in Antiquity, so it wouldn't be strange.
On a Roman map

on a modern map
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2013, 01:15:31 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2013, 01:27:25 PM »

Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity. Those adhering to a flat earth hypothesis are the exception. A spherical model of the earth can be found in St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory Palamas' 150 Chapters, for example.
Aristotelian ideas dominated the Franks during the late middle ages since it was inherent in Thomism.

The Aristotelian cosmology of concentric spheres was pretty universal throughout the Roman/ Post-Roman world, Thomism or no Thomism. Or do you consider St. Gregory Palamas a Frankish Thomist?

Quote
As to Saint Basil, you are mistaken. He also knew the earth to be flat. 
When he wrote of a spherical cosmos, he understood the firmament to be spherical since the heaven is domed.

That would make a hemispherical heaven, not a spherical one.
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2013, 01:35:55 PM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
Yes, that is what I believe.
I made a couple posts on that subject in James' thread on the cosmos:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html

Yours and Opus's comments were interesting, really better than your and Romaios'. I can't imagine Opus not writing something that I am completely not mesmerized by. I did after all think I had found true love with him once, before I knew he was a him, and that he is a too old him.

Could you expand on the flat earth stuff. I don't want to argue. I've just never really "met" anyone who really held this belief in any serious manner.
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 01:58:17 PM »

Quote from: Iconodule
Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity.
...
The Aristotelian cosmology of concentric spheres was pretty universal throughout the Roman/ Post-Roman world
Evidence for this? You subjugate the Church Fathers to Aristotle.    

The introduction to the Penguin Classics edition of Augustine's 'City of God' states that flat earth science became predominant in the Roman world during the century prior to Constantine the Great.  

Arthur Koestler's 'Sleepwalkers' states that the globularism of Claudius Ptolemy gave way to the flat earth science of the likes of Lactantius and Cosmas Indicopleuestes. Ptolemy's spherical geography was not revived in the Latin west until the late twelfth century.  

Saint Justinian the Roman Emperor believed that the earth is flat and patronized Cosmas Indicopleustes who made the oldest known extant map of Jerusalem which is a mosaic flat earth map on the floor of a sixth century Church of Saint George in Madaba, Jordan.  The eastern part of this map depicts the four rivers of Paradise flowing west from the Garden of Eden.  The scholar Picirrilo came to these conclusions after a study
of the archives of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.  This website is one chapter of the book he poduced about the Madaba map.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mad
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 02:09:01 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2013, 02:09:19 PM »

Could you expand on the flat earth stuff. I don't want to argue. I've just never really "met" anyone who really held this belief in any serious manner.

Sadly, it is even more rare to find one such as yourself who is only interested in civilized discussion rather than proselytism.  
Regardless of what you believe about geography, I respect you more than others because of this.
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2013, 02:12:51 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.
Good stuff here.

As to Isidore of Seville, I concur with Andrew White that he held a flat earth understanding similar to the T-O map shown above.

Cosmas Indicopleustes spoke of "climes" which is a word that seems interchangeable with the zones of the first map above.
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 02:18:29 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.


Ah ok, I'm also starting to make out some more features. I see the Ganges and the Indus rivers mentioned. I also see an Abyoscinia up on the top, is that supposed to be Abyssinia?
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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2013, 02:47:20 PM »

Cosmas Indicopleustes wrote of large islands on the other side of the arctic which would perhaps correspond with North America.
If that is the case, then he was mistaken to assert that they are uninhabited.

However, ancient Greek geographers believed in hyperborea which was a land located "beyond the north wind in a region of eternal sunlight".
The other possibility is that the lands which he spoke of are actually located in the arctic and remain uncharted in recent centuries.
The famous sixteenth century cartographer Gerhard Mercator wrote about islands of mountains in the arctic and included them in his chart of the North regions.
  
MERCATOR ARCTIC CHART (DETAIL)
Complete Chart:  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-l4zG_gVZEmo/TsZKPwmkxVI/AAAAAAAACKs/TjggPDc5ehU/s1600/Meru+%252811%2529.jpg  



Both Cosmas Indicopleustes and Aethicus of Istria wrote of a great mountain in the arctic around which the sun, moon, and stars orbited.  The shadow cast by this mountain creates night upon the parts of the world opposite to the sun.  The eighteenth century Russian scientist Lomonosov tried to find the location of this mountain, and Catherine the Great of Russia sent a fleet of ships to the arctic seek out this mountain.

Russian Scientist Finds Paradise at North Pole
http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/29-11-2006/85697-paradise-1/

This is the basis of the old view of a land mass in the North.  It is the view reflected in the Bible in the Book of the prophet Isaiah 14 when Satan declares his intention to ascend to the top of the great mountain in the recesses of the North.  

The great arctic mountain is as common to the most ancient histories of every nation and cosmographical tradition as the flood of Noah.  
'The King of the World' by Rene Guenon reproduces details of ancient traditions about the arctic mountain amd what it is called in various religions and traditions.  It is called Mehru by the Hindus and Buddhists.  The zoroastrians and later the Sufis have traditions about it as well.  

The tabernacle of Cosmas Indicopleustes.


A degree of mystery and imprecision surrounded the arctic for most people until the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries when the self-contradictory claims of Robert Peary and Frederck Cooke became widely accepted.  The widespread acceptance of their manifest lies ended realistic thinking about the arctic region.  
I do not endorse the belief of Marshall Gardner that the world is a hollow globe, but he did an excellent job of refuting the claims of Peary and Cooke which cannot withstand scrutiny.  
Was the North Pole Discovered?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/jei/jei12.htm

Two Congressional Opinions on Peary and Cooke
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/jei/jei13.htm

The logical conclusion is that uncharted regions of the arctic remain inspite of the artifical and inadequate coordinate system superimposed upon the north, and both the farthest North and other regions have not been reached by modern explorers.  
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« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 02:53:18 PM »

Dionysii, do you use Google maps or GPS? What do you think of satellites? Pictures of Earth taken from space?
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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2013, 03:11:46 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
However, I am open to hear new explanations of such phenomena which would tell me something I have not already heard.

Pictures of Earth taken from space?
If they portray the earth as spherical, then they likely have either been fabricated by a computer or run through a fish lens to curve the image.
The distortion of the earth to give it a rounded appearance in the background of images of Felix Baumgartner is a case in point.
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« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2013, 03:16:30 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
However, I am open to hear new explanations of such phenomena which would tell me something I have not already heard.

Pictures of Earth taken from space?
If they portray the earth as spherical, then they likely have either been fabricated by a computer or run through a fish lens to curve the image.

What about this picture?



You claimed this was the original, yet you can still see the curvature of the earth in the background.
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« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2013, 03:21:10 PM »

you can still see the curvature of the earth in the background.
I would disagree. 
To argue the point further along that line is where the fruitless discussion come in.
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« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2013, 03:55:16 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.

The moon? Time zones? Seasons?

Do you think that the Sun rises and sets at the same time for people in the East and West or North and South? Cuz then it must also be 'round midnight in America as I am writing this...
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« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2013, 03:57:34 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.

The moon? Time zones? Seasons?

Do you think that the Sun rises and sets at the same time for people in the East and West or North and South? Cuz' then it must also be night in America as I am writing this...

It's 16:07 here in D.C. and it's still light outside.
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« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2013, 03:58:04 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.


Ah ok, I'm also starting to make out some more features. I see the Ganges and the Indus rivers mentioned. I also see an Abyoscinia up on the top, is that supposed to be Abyssinia?
No, it's the name of a people, Abyos Cythae
http://www.cambridge.org/us/talbert/talbertdatabase/TPPlace3259.html
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« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2013, 03:58:12 PM »

I would love for a mod to take the time to remove this flat earth stuff out of this thread whenever. There are two very different and very interesting conversations going on here that I know nothing about.

Except I think the earth is not flat. But maybe everything I know about it is a lie. Geography is one of my many short suits (though I don't think you can have more than four of them, I have managed to do so).
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« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2013, 04:00:53 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.

The moon? Time zones? Seasons?

Do you think that the Sun rises and sets at the same time for people in the East and West or North and South? Cuz then it must also be 'round midnight in America as I am writing this...
LOL. I remember when I traveled in Europe, I always kept my watch on Chicago time, and I would always get puzzled looks when a local would ask to see the time (one Czech was down right perplexed looking up at the sky, around, and at my watch.  This was back during communism, and no one had any experience but with one time zone).

By the way, it is just past noon around here. Not midnight.
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« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2013, 04:01:20 PM »

Seasons?
It seems to me that the diametre of the sun's orbit varies at different times of the year.
More specifically, it is shortest on 24 June and longest on 25 Decembre
- the birthdays of Saint John the Forerunner and the Lord Jesus Christ, respectively.
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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2013, 04:01:43 PM »

Evil educators refuse to recognize
the wisest of humans to ever exist.
My magnificent creation of 4
simultaneous 24 hour days within
a single rotation of Earth, debunks
the puny 1-day rotation of a fake
word god and stupid educators.
Nature has no choice but to bring
forth a hell upon evil cubelessness.
Know it to be of your own making.
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2013, 04:03:34 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?
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« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2013, 04:04:13 PM »


What in God's Green Earth did I just read?
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« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2013, 04:04:50 PM »

Seasons?
It seems to me that the diametre of the sun's orbit varies at different times of the year.
More specifically, it is shortest on 24 June and longest on 25 Decembre
- the birthdays of Saint John the Forerunner and the Lord Jesus Christ, respectively.
So along with a flat earth, you believe in a geocentric one as well?
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« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2013, 04:08:14 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?

FYI, the full quote is:
What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
However, I am open to hear new explanations of such phenomena which would tell me something I have not already heard.

Furthermore, I was a US Navy submarine helmsman and lookout myself. 
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« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2013, 04:09:04 PM »

Seasons?
It seems to me that the diametre of the sun's orbit varies at different times of the year.
More specifically, it is shortest on 24 June and longest on 25 Decembre
- the birthdays of Saint John the Forerunner and the Lord Jesus Christ, respectively.

Hmm. I'm not sure how that explains why around the winter solstice people in the Northern "hemisphere" have the longest night of the year and the shortest day, while those in the Southern one experience the opposite. Or why the latter celebrate the Nativity of Our Lord in the middle of summer... Maybe because they are ana-podoi?
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2013, 04:12:36 PM »

So along with a flat earth, you believe in a geocentric one as well?

I have never thought of them as different.

Geocentric means that the earth is at the centre.  
A middle earth located between heaven above and hell below is geocentric.
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« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2013, 04:19:06 PM »

Seasons?
It seems to me that the diametre of the sun's orbit varies at different times of the year.
More specifically, it is shortest on 24 June and longest on 25 Decembre
- the birthdays of Saint John the Forerunner and the Lord Jesus Christ, respectively.

Hmm. I'm not sure how that explains why around the winter solstice people in the Northern "hemisphere" have the longest night of the year and the shortest day, while those in the Southern one experience the opposite. Or why the latter celebrate the Nativity of Our Lord in the middle of summer...

The sun itself is only a few miles in diametre and located a few hundred miles above the surface of the earth.

On 25 December, as the sun orbits the arctic mountain it traverses a course roughly contiguous with the tropic of Cancer.  
During the next six months, its orbit gradually broadens until its course is roughly contiguous with the Tropic of Capricorn by 24 June.
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2013, 04:22:43 PM »


The meditations of the Wisest Human to ever exist. Death to cubelessness.
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2013, 04:28:26 PM »

Seasons?
It seems to me that the diametre of the sun's orbit varies at different times of the year.
More specifically, it is shortest on 24 June and longest on 25 Decembre
- the birthdays of Saint John the Forerunner and the Lord Jesus Christ, respectively.

Hmm. I'm not sure how that explains why around the winter solstice people in the Northern "hemisphere" have the longest night of the year and the shortest day, while those in the Southern one experience the opposite. Or why the latter celebrate the Nativity of Our Lord in the middle of summer...

The sun itself is only a few miles in diametre and located a few hundred miles above the surface of the earth.

On 25 December, as the sun orbits the arctic mountain it traverses a course roughly contiguous with the tropic of Cancer.  
During the next six months, its orbit gradually broadens until its course is roughly contiguous with the Tropic of Capricorn by 24 June.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus_on_sizes_and_distances

You cited Hipparchus as a source on this subject. It turns out, he disagrees with you.
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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2013, 04:30:02 PM »

The sun itself is only a few miles in diametre and located a few hundred miles above the surface of the earth.

Is that your rough estimation or did someone else actually measure those distances? If the latter, how?

On 25 December, as the sun orbits the arctic mountain it traverses a course roughly contiguous with the tropic of Cancer. 

During the next six months, its orbit gradually broadens until its course is roughly contiguous with the Tropic of Capricorn by 24 June.

If you are right, people who live at the Tropic of Capricorn should never be able to see the Sun above their head around Christmas. Yet they say it's summer in Australia around that time!
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« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2013, 04:34:44 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?

I do not follow you. 
Are you saying that aviators are compelled to dwell upon satellite technology at length?
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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2013, 04:37:30 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?

I do not follow you.  
Are you saying that aviators are compelled to dwell upon satellite technology at length?

They must adjust their watches, in order to reach their destinations on time.
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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2013, 04:38:00 PM »

If you are right, people who live at the Tropic of Capricorn should never be able to see the Sun above their head around Christmas.

You do not understand.  I say the sun is on the move completing a full orbit once per day.  
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« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2013, 04:41:11 PM »

If you are right, people who live at the Tropic of Capricorn should never be able to see the Sun above their head around Christmas.

You do not understand.  I say the sun is on the move completing a full orbit once per day.  

A full orbit around what? The Arctic mountain? Or does it go to hell at night?
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« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2013, 04:42:03 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?

I do not follow you.  
Are you saying that aviators are compelled to dwell upon satellite technology at length?

Not necessarily, but they do have to 'dwell' upon the curvature of the earth when it comes to planning flight paths and ensuring that they have enough fuel.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_planning

See also:
http://www.greatcirclemapper.net/
and compare the great circle paths to flight paths found here: http://flightaware.com/
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« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2013, 04:43:37 PM »

You cited Hipparchus as a source on this subject. It turns out, he disagrees with you.
Care to be more specific?

Did he not teach the epicycles which I attributed to him?
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« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2013, 04:46:32 PM »

You do not understand.  I say the sun is on the move completing a full orbit once per day.
A full orbit around what? The Arctic mountain?
Yes.  The sun orbits the arctic mountain just like the drawing in Cosmas's manuscript.

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« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2013, 04:47:48 PM »

they do have to 'dwell' upon the curvature of the earth when it comes to planning flight paths and ensuring that they have enough fuel.
Evidence for this?
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« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2013, 04:47:55 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .
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« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2013, 04:49:52 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .

Give that man a cigar.
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« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2013, 04:56:26 PM »

You do not understand.  I say the sun is on the move completing a full orbit once per day.
A full orbit around what? The Arctic mountain?
Yes.  The sun orbits the arctic mountain just like the drawing in Cosmas's manuscript.

Aha. - so then America is on one side of the Arctic mountain, and Europe is on the other? This should account for it being day there and night over here... But I still don't get why it should be summer in Australia around Christmas. Australia = the Antipodes?

Or is the Arctic mountain at the northernmost end of the Earth and there is nothing behind it?
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« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2013, 05:04:31 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .

A lesson in ancient geography and astronomy.  Smiley

We're done with Ethiopia and India and we're discussing the Arctic mountain and the Sun's orbit around it.
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« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2013, 05:11:17 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .

A lesson in ancient geography and astronomy.  Smiley

We're done with Ethiopia and India and we're discussing the Arctic mountain and the Sun's orbit around it.

On seasonal change:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za26.htm
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« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2013, 05:32:26 PM »

The Aethiopian Bible includes the Book of Enoch which decribes a flat earth cosmos. 
Although the original is undoubtedly by the antediluvian prophet Enoch of the Book of Genesis, this book has had interpolations which is why the Synod of Laodicea forbade its inclusion in the Biblical Canon in A.D. 364. 
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« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2013, 05:36:52 PM »

You cited Hipparchus as a source on this subject. It turns out, he disagrees with you.
Care to be more specific?

Did he not teach the epicycles which I attributed to him?

Yes, and he also taught that the Earth was spherical and that the Sun was between 490 and 2490 earth radia away (roughly 2-10 Million miles if you give the earth radius to be roughly 4000 miles).
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« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2013, 05:38:40 PM »

I know primarily of two flat earth models although it is common to every ancient tradition:
1) nineteenth century model of Samuel Rowbotham

2) early Christian model
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« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2013, 05:39:17 PM »

they do have to 'dwell' upon the curvature of the earth when it comes to planning flight paths and ensuring that they have enough fuel.
Evidence for this?

Compare the flight plans and the great circle paths in the links I gave you above. There's a reason why planes use the great circle path and not the flat earth path.
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« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2013, 05:43:35 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .

A lesson in ancient geography and astronomy.  Smiley

We're done with Ethiopia and India and we're discussing the Arctic mountain and the Sun's orbit around it.

On seasonal change:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za26.htm

Complicated!  Lips Sealed

But if you climb on top of the Arctic mountain, it all becomes clear as daylight. Or pitch dark. You could even spit on the Sun...
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« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2013, 05:53:32 PM »

You cited Hipparchus as a source on this subject. It turns out, he disagrees with you.

he taught that the Earth was spherical and that the Sun was between 490 and 2490 earth radia away (roughly 2-10 Million miles if you give the earth radius to be roughly 4000 miles).

So what?
Hipparchus can believe whatever he wants, but it has nothing to do with epicycles which is the only reason I mentioned him.  

The Arian heretics were correct in their belief that only God knowns His own essence,
but that does not imply that other things they believed are true.
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« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2013, 05:56:35 PM »

But if you climb on top of the Arctic mountain, it all becomes clear as daylight.

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
- Luke 4:5
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« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2013, 06:06:15 PM »

But if you climb on top of the Arctic mountain, it all becomes clear as daylight.

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
- Luke 4:5

He must have used a panoptical telescope. The fallen angels have yet to teach mortals how to build one.
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« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2013, 06:10:56 PM »

But if you climb on top of the Arctic mountain, it all becomes clear as daylight.

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
- Luke 4:5

He must have used a panoptical telescope. The fallen angels have yet to teach mortals how to build one.

I wish you would use the idiom of your fellow countryman who used to post here to refer to such creatures.
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« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2013, 06:12:57 PM »


Quote from: Solomon in Proverbs 18:2
A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may express itself.
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« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2013, 06:14:30 PM »

*Snickers*
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« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2013, 10:43:47 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.
... do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?

Are you saying that aviators are compelled to dwell upon satellite technology at length?
Are you saying that professionals do not have the liberty to acknowledge what they know to be the truth?

Chart and compass, sextant and sundial, latitudes and longitudes, plumbline and pendulum, globe or plane?
A letter of remonstrance, respectfully addressed to the officers of the Naval and Mercantile Marine of England and America.

[London, 1887]
http://www.earthnotaglobe.com/library/Chart_&_Compass.pdf
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« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2013, 11:11:12 PM »

... you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?
We located the following passages about the attitude of aviators towards the shape of the earth from page 8 of a book entitled

'Zetetic Cosmogony'
by Thomas Winship:

Quote from: Thomas Winship
The universal testimony of aeronauts is entirely against the globular assumption, as the following quotations show.

The London Journal of 18th July, 1857, says:
“The chief peculiarity of the view from a balloon at a considerable elevation was the altitude of the horizon, which remained practically on a level with the eye at an elevation of two miles, causing the surface of the earth to appear concave instead of convex, and to recede during the rapid ascent, whilst the horizon and the balloon seemed to be stationary.”

J. Glaisher, F.R.S., in his work, “Travels in the Air,” states:  “On looking over the top of the car, the horizon appeared to be on a level with the eye, and taking a grand view of the whole visible area beneath, I was struck with its great regularity;  all was dwarfed to one plane; it seemed too flat, too even, apparently artificial.”  In his accounts of his ascents in the air, M Camilla Flammarion states:  “The earth appeared as one immense plane richly decorated with ever-varied colors; hills and valleys are all passed over without being able to distinguish any undulation in the immense plane.”

Mr. Elliot, an American aeronaut, says:  “I don’t know that I ever hinted heretofore that the aeronaut may well be the most skeptical man about the rotundity of the earth.  Philosophy forces the truth upon us; but the view of the earth from the elevation of a balloon is that of an immense terrestrial basin, the deeper part of which is directly under one’s feet.-Zetetic Astronomy. Page 37.

In March, 1897, I met M. Victor Emanuel, and asked him to give me an idea of the shape of the earth as seen from a balloon.  He informed me that, instead of the earthdeclining from the view on either side, and the higher part being under the car, as is popularly supposed, it was exact opposite; the lowest part, like a huge basin, being immediately under the car, and the horizon on all sides rising to the level of the eye.  This, he admitted, was exactly what should be the appearance of a plane viewed from a balloon.
It is almost needless to say that a globe would present a totally different appearance, the highest part being directly under the car.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GzkKAAAAIAAJ&oe=UTF-8
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« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2013, 11:37:47 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?
No, you're wrong. 
An aviator piloting an airplane does have the luxury of ignoring people inquiring about his beliefs on esoteric subjects.

As to satellites, I have not researched every aspect of it, but I do not believe that they exist. 
Their functions can be accomplished by other means.

In opposition to my disbelief, one might mention the International Space Station (ISS) which can be tracked on the internet. 
Considering that the ISS came into existence at roughly the same time as the internet, I would say that the main reason the ISS was invented was to salvage popular belief in the system of lies about space travel invented during the cold war.
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« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2013, 11:42:48 PM »

Then the folks who have had space junk from decommissioned satellites and damaged spacecraft land on their properties are making it up? Sputnik? Spacelab? Telstar? Both greatly pre-date the Internet. And I suppose the fourteen astronauts who died in the two space shuttle disasters simply didn't exist?

O-o-okayyyy.
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« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2013, 11:51:15 PM »

Spacelab?
This picture is the result of superimposing an image of Skylab over a computer generated image of the earth
- replete with the left wing a casualty of photoshop.
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« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2013, 11:58:12 PM »

Michael Collins allegedly did a space walk during the Gemini 10 space flight of July 1966.  Photographs were released of the space walk which were later shown to be photoshopped photographs of Collins training in the fuselage of an airplane several months previously.

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« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2013, 12:00:07 AM »

Spacelab?
This picture is the result of superimposing an image of Skylab over a computer generated image of the earth
- replete with the left wing a casualty of photoshop.


Tell that to the people of the state of Western Australia who were rained on by debris from Skylab as it disintegrated over the southwest of that state in 1979. The local government at the time even half-jokingly billed NASA for a littering fine.

And what of the Challenger and Columbia astronauts? Were they fictitious people? I suppose Yuri Gagarin was a ghost as well ...
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« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2013, 12:04:00 AM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?
No, you're wrong. 
An aviator piloting an airplane does have the luxury of ignoring people inquiring about his beliefs on esoteric subjects.

As to satellites, I have not researched every aspect of it, but I do not believe that they exist. 
Their functions can be accomplished by other means.

In opposition to my disbelief, one might mention the International Space Station (ISS) which can be tracked on the internet. 
Considering that the ISS came into existence at roughly the same time as the internet, I would say that the main reason the ISS was invented was to salvage popular belief in the system of lies about space travel invented during the cold war.

*facepalm* You can SEE the dang thing from the ground for Pete's sake.
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« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2013, 12:10:11 AM »

And what of the Challenger and Columbia astronauts?
The first two minutes of all of the shuttle flights were genuine, and the Challenger disaster appears to be genuine.  

The inflight broadcasts of the shuttle flights including videos of weightlessness are all pre-recorded rubbish.  
I have not investigated the Columbia crash. It seems genuine as far as I know.  
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« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2013, 12:19:43 AM »

I suppose Yuri Gagarin was a ghost as well ...

Soviet Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin Was Never in Space
Taken From:  http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/gagarin.htm

A Soviet propaganda hoax has been revealed in the former communist countries (for example Hungary, Estonia and Poland). It was a myth that everyone had really believed in, that the Soviet Air Force officer Yuri Gagarin had made a space-flight. Many Western governments were aware of this Soviet bluff but did not want to reveal the truth. It was not intended for the people to know that the Soviet Union was a backward state. too long quote editted - MK

The CIA knew about the Gagarin bluff but said nothing. Instead they have come up with more and more ridiculous lies themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7npNk3EGKBQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07bOh6FU5E8

Lloyd Malan wrote an expose in 1966 entitled 'Russia's space hoax: Documented proof that the Soviet space program has been faked'

As noted above, a recent book by a popular Hungarian poet exposes Yuri Gagarin's career as Soviet propaganda.
Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha distrusted Soviet scientists which he wrote about in his critical biography of Khruschev.
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« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2013, 12:30:42 AM »

Tell that to the people of the state of Western Australia who were rained on by debris from Skylab as it disintegrated over the southwest of that state in 1979.

It appears that most of them agree with me.  Several of them interviewed for this news article say that the peices were planted.
Even NASA refused to send investigators claiming that no one was injured and it was too early in the flight for those peices to be genuine.

'Skylab Debris Could Be Fake'
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19790715&id=9BQsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CskEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4057,3168202
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2013, 12:42:23 AM »

My understanding is that astronauts in the 1960's and 1970's allegedly on Gemini and Apollo flights according to disinformation which was spread using the news media were not actually on those flights.  The Apollo astronauts, for example, were flown out in a C-130 to some place out of the sight of the media such as the middle of the Pacific Ocean and dropped to sea in their capsule.

The Gemini and Apollo flights were a publicity stunt that had nothing to do with the Space Shuttle which was a more fully developed version of the X-15 rocket plane. This and the Stealth bomber were developed in secret or relative obscurity while stupidity like Apollo and Skylab soaked up the publicity.
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2013, 12:48:36 AM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?
No, you're wrong.  
An aviator piloting an airplane does have the luxury of ignoring people inquiring about his beliefs on esoteric subjects.
Not when I'm his passenger he doesn't.

I've gone the Great Circle several times, and so for me this is as about as esoteric as walking down the street.  An aviator who doesn't know how to plot the shortest route between two points on a globe can find himself short of fuel.

As to satellites, I have not researched every aspect of it, but I do not believe that they exist.  
Their functions can be accomplished by other means.

In opposition to my disbelief, one might mention the International Space Station (ISS) which can be tracked on the internet.  
Considering that the ISS came into existence at roughly the same time as the internet, I would say that the main reason the ISS was invented was to salvage popular belief in the system of lies about space travel invented during the cold war.
ISS's precursors Soyuz and Skylab predate the Internet (at least widespread use of it) by quite a bit.  And I remember going to to watch Apollo-Soyuz fly overhead.
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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2013, 12:55:02 AM »

An aviator who doesn't know how to plot the shortest route between two points on a globe can find himself short of fuel.
That's nice.  We used charts rather than globes when plotting our course in submarines.

I remember going to to watch Apollo-Soyuz fly overhead.
Sounds like they got good publicity out of that one.
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« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2013, 01:19:12 AM »

Lloyd Mallan wrote an expose in 1966 entitled 'Russia's space hoax: Documented proof that the Soviet space program has been faked'

As noted above, a recent book by a popular Hungarian poet exposes Yuri Gagarin's career as Soviet propaganda.
Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha distrusted Soviet scientists which he wrote about in his critical biography of Khruschev.

Llyoyd Mallan goes into detail showing that Soviet propaganda about robots they sent to the moon never actually went there.
Mallan shows how the video of Russian cosmonaught Alexey Leonov making the first space walk was fake.

"Four months of solid research interviewing experts in the fields of photo-optics, photo-chemistry and electro-optics, all of whom carefully studied the motion picture film and still photographs officially released by the Soviet Government ... (indicate them to be) double-printed .. The foreground (Leonov) was superimposed on the background (Earth below). The Russian film showed reflections from the glass plate under which a double plate is made ... Leonov was suspended from wire or cables ... In several episodes of the Russian film, light was reflected from a small portion of wire (or cable) attached to Leonov's space suit ... One camera angle was impossible of achievement. This showed Leonov crawling out of his hatch into space. It was a head on shot, so the camera would have had to have been located out in space beyond the space ship."
Mallan testified to the US Congress about the Russian space program.

Ralph Rene exposed Michael Collins 1966 space walk as fake using photographs published in Michael Collins' 1974 autobiography 'Carrying the Fire'.  
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« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2013, 01:52:42 AM »

Where are you going with this?

Did you see NASA prove that men were on the moon to combat the allegations of conspiracy theorists?
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« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2013, 01:59:28 AM »


Quote from: Solomon in Proverbs 18:2
A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may express itself.

That verse cuts both ways, you know.  Wink
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« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2013, 02:01:35 AM »

Where are you going with this?

So the earth is flat?
I got this question during the course of the thread to which I responded affirmatively, and it was followed by a gauntlet of others about this same subject.
You're right.  Further discussion about the cosmos needs to go here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html
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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2013, 02:04:47 AM »

Where are you going with this?

So the earth is flat?
I got this question during the course of the thread to which I responded affirmatively, and it was followed by a gauntlet of others about this same subject.
You're right.  Further discussion about the cosmos needs to go here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html

Space conspiracies + Buddha = Mind blown   Shocked
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2013, 02:25:13 AM »

Space conspiracies + Buddha = Mind blown   Shocked

Your Mind is Bigger than all the Supermarkets in the World - Some guidance for a Lost Westerner  Tongue



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« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2013, 02:34:56 AM »

But if you climb on top of the Arctic mountain, it all becomes clear as daylight.

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
- Luke 4:5

He must have used a panoptical telescope. The fallen angels have yet to teach mortals how to build one.

I wish you would use the idiom of your fellow countryman who used to post here to refer to such creatures.

If it's Azul you mean, he might have referred to them as Anunnaki.
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« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2013, 03:06:30 AM »

But if you climb on top of the Arctic mountain, it all becomes clear as daylight.

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
- Luke 4:5

He must have used a panoptical telescope. The fallen angels have yet to teach mortals how to build one.

I wish you would use the idiom of your fellow countryman who used to post here to refer to such creatures.

If it's Azul you mean, he might have referred to them as Anunnaki.

The Anunna-ki dwell in their E' in Apsu and Kigal, underground.

Pasadi, however, moves to and fro upon the earth:

They are sick, will lose power after last judgement and can be saved if they repent which is hard because of sickness. A woman has made a sick angel repent (Hurrrrayyyyy for woman and angel ) and this transformed itself in angel of light. After death they do not give judgement, God does judegment  so being close to sick angels usually assure a very hard treatment after death maybe in Tartarus with fire so this is what I don't want for worst enemy. So no Tartarus means no sorcery, yoga, Eastern religion, tarot, magic, rei ki, tai ki, and such and not going to ask sorceres and people like this. If you did any of these, go to confession so these sins are erased.

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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2013, 03:31:37 AM »

Pasadi, however, moves to and fro upon the earth:

Pasadi is also Romanian? I'm in such illustrious company on this board!
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2013, 04:37:32 AM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
Not to pick at your beliefs, but you do realize that not everyone has that luxury (aviators, for instance), no?
No, you're wrong. 
An aviator piloting an airplane does have the luxury of ignoring people inquiring about his beliefs on esoteric subjects.

As to satellites, I have not researched every aspect of it, but I do not believe that they exist. 
Their functions can be accomplished by other means.

In opposition to my disbelief, one might mention the International Space Station (ISS) which can be tracked on the internet. 
Considering that the ISS came into existence at roughly the same time as the internet, I would say that the main reason the ISS was invented was to salvage popular belief in the system of lies about space travel invented during the cold war.

*facepalm* You can SEE the dang thing from the ground for Pete's sake.
laugh
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« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2013, 04:44:50 AM »

List of Ancient Kings of Axum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Axum

Although not exhaustive, this list does not seem to have any kings by the name of Adenner, Joasaph, or Berechias as mentioned in the story.
 
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/11/note-concerning-saints-barlaam-and.html

The tale of Barlaam and Joasaph takes place in "the interior regions of the Ethiopians called India."

Three Christian kingdoms were located between Axum and Aegypt:
1) Nobatia in the north
2) Makuria in the middle
3) Alodia in the south

All of these are possible Aethiopian settings, but I suspect that Alodia is the most likely since it is geographically located directly inland of Axum which would correspond more than anything else to "inner Aethiopia".

Alodia was also the biggest of all of these African Christian kingdoms and resisted conversion to Islam the longest, until the fifteenth century.  
The Alodians afterwards continued to survive as the Kingdom of Dongola.
The kingdom of Alodia seems to have converted to the Christian faith during the reign of Emperor Justinian.
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« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2013, 08:19:52 AM »

An aviator who doesn't know how to plot the shortest route between two points on a globe can find himself short of fuel.
That's nice.  We used charts rather than globes when plotting our course in submarines.
Never been in a submarine.  Have you?

Airplanes use charts too.

notice the curvature?

And submarines I am sure use Great circle navigation if they are going any distance.  I know someone who spends most his life on a submarine. I might get a chance to see him next month.  I'll ask him.

I remember going to to watch Apollo-Soyuz fly overhead.
Sounds like they got good publicity out of that one.
Lots.
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« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2013, 12:34:51 PM »

Why are we even wasting our time discussing such a ridiculous subject?
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« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2013, 12:41:00 PM »

Why are we even wasting our time discussing such a ridiculous subject?

Precisely because it is so ridiculous.  Cool  

(Are you implying that you have better things to do  Grin Grin?)

Besides, as a teacher of mine once said, "It is good to be dis-illusioned".  (I'm still workin' on some of mine  Wink.)
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« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2013, 01:17:54 PM »

Why are we even wasting our time discussing such a ridiculous subject?

You have no sense for the sublime.
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« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2013, 02:19:26 PM »

Why are we even wasting our time discussing such a ridiculous subject?

I don't like that insolent tone ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqos3j07jzc
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« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2013, 07:08:09 PM »

Someone should contact the History Channel...there is enough good material here and on the Cosmos thread to develop a series to replace Ancient Aliens!
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« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2013, 11:00:38 PM »

Someone should contact the History Channel...

Considering the degree to which we are all of one mind on this subject  Tongue, I'll go ahead and drink to that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRt2_OLY3Ho
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« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2013, 01:24:22 AM »

 gninrawllort
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« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2013, 08:33:50 AM »

gninrawllort

? Google didn't help.Thanks.
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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2013, 10:49:25 AM »

Tell that to the people of the state of Western Australia who were rained on by debris from Skylab as it disintegrated over the southwest of that state in 1979.

It appears that most of them agree with me.  Several of them interviewed for this news article say that the peices were planted.
Even NASA refused to send investigators claiming that no one was injured and it was too early in the flight for those peices to be genuine.

'Skylab Debris Could Be Fake'
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19790715&id=9BQsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CskEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4057,3168202

Of course if you paid any attention to what you were posting and read it in context, you would understand that this news article was about material found in Kentucky. At least try to put up a coherent bad argument.
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« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2013, 11:32:00 AM »

gninrawllort

? Google didn't help.Thanks.

.sdrawkcab ti daeR
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« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2013, 08:26:39 PM »


.uoyknahT
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« Reply #125 on: June 28, 2013, 12:19:23 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .

Society of the Spectacle
1973 film directed by Guy DeBord based on his 1960's classic of the same name
http://vimeo.com/60945809

"All that once was directly lived has become mere representation." Debord argues that the history of social life can be understood as "the decline of being into having, and having into merely appearing." This condition, according to Debord, is the "historical moment at which the commodity completes its colonization of social life."

With the term spectacle, Debord defines the system that is a confluence of advanced capitalism, the mass media, and the types of governments who favor those phenomena: "the spectacle, taken in the limited sense of 'mass media' which are its most glaring superficial manifestation". In his [1988] follow-up book, 'Comments on the Society of the Spectacle', Debord referred to the spectacle as coming to existence in the late 1920s.

The spectacle is the inverted image of society in which relations between commodities have supplanted relations between people, in which "passive identification with the spectacle supplants genuine activity". "The spectacle is not a collection of images," Debord writes, "rather, it is a social relationship between people that is mediated by images."

In his analysis of the spectacular society, Debord notes that quality of life is impoverished, with such lack of authenticity, human perceptions are affected, and there's also a degradation of knowledge, with the hindering of critical thought. Debord analyzes the use of knowledge to assuage reality: the spectacle obfuscates the past, imploding it with the future into an undifferentiated mass, a type of never-ending present; in this way the spectacle prevents individuals from realizing that the society of spectacle is only a moment in history, one that can be overturned through revolution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Spectacle
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« Reply #126 on: June 28, 2013, 12:39:34 PM »

'Hollywood and the War Machine'
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/empire/2010/12/2010121681345363793.html
'The Hollywood War Machine'
http://www.amazon.com/The-Hollywood-War-Machine-Militarism/dp/1594512981

Hollywood and the War Machine is interesting in the improvement of military popularity since the 1970's and particularly in the context of it as one aspect of Guy DeBord's perspective of modern society as having become enslaved to spectacle since the 1920's.

'Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies'
By Anwar Noam Chomsky
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/7061-1
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« Reply #127 on: June 28, 2013, 01:06:10 PM »

'Capricorn One'
http://stagevu.com/video/gpaveldmdxhn

The status quo are cowards too scared to examine the reality of what they are told is scientific fact. 
This kind of stuff defies such controlled thinking (besides being one of O.J. Simpson's better achievements).

My favorite line is Elliott Gould's words to the missing astronaut's wife when he says that he must be careful in what he says because his mouth has gotten him into trouble and that he has a vivid imagination.  His character's thinking is in line with what is now called critical thinking.
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« Reply #128 on: June 28, 2013, 03:18:29 PM »

'The Conquest of Space in the Time of Power'
by Eduardo Rothe
http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/12.space.htm

The faith which many people have in the media empowers credibility in fictitious propaganda.  People accept fables and old wives tales.  

The mythical AIDS virus which Jon Rappaport among others has demonstrated to have never existed is an example of such a lie.
Deliberate misdiagnosis (profit motivated and otherwise) is a leading cause of AIDS diagnosis.  Although genuinely sick people with GRID (Gay Related Immune Deficiency) and other diseases are deliberately misdiagnosed with "AIDS" in order to confer credibility to its name, the only harmful thing about 'AIDS' is the poison used to treat this non-existent disease which kills most patients who were never sick in the first place.  
Africans do not have AIDS at all.  They are falsely diagnosed with AIDS and henceforth administered poisons in the guise of AIDS treatment.  In this way, AIDS is a lie which is the backbone of African genocide by colonial powers such as France and the US via medical propaganda. AIDS is a false spectacle or lie used to kill people.  

AIDS, Inc.
By Jon Rapaport
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3329947/-AIDS-Inc-Scandal-of-the-Century-John-Rappaport
http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/mcrappoport.htm

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and even mental illness itself are other lies disguised as scientific fact by false propaganda.  
Ritalin is a stimulant like cocaine which is usually the cause of hyperactivity in children diagnosed with so-called ADHD.    

Talking Back to Ritalin
By Peter Breggin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0SHflAfJwo

The so-called 'Donation of Constantine' is the father of western propaganda.  It was known in the east to be a forgery all along, but this forged document was the backbone of papal power in medieval Frankish civilization - a lie for centuries deemed unapproachable and treasonable to question - much like Darwinism, Lyellian geology, heliocentrism, modern medicine, and space travel have become.  A truly objective and honest comparison of modern propaganda with the 'Donation of Constantine' illustrates how man has in fact regressed even further.  
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« Reply #129 on: June 28, 2013, 04:29:37 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
As to satellites, I have not researched every aspect of it, but I do not believe that they exist.  
Their functions can be accomplished by other means.
...
one might mention the International Space Station (ISS) which can be tracked on the internet.  
Considering that the ISS came into existence at roughly the same time as the internet, I would say that the main reason the ISS was invented was to salvage popular belief in the system of lies about space travel invented during the cold war.

You can SEE the dang thing from the ground for Pete's sake.

I looked into satellites a bit and reflected upon this. Of course, I accept the reality of objects like airplanes which I see in the sky.
Karp Lykov believed that satellites exist because he saw such objects in the sky - although he disbelieved claims about moon travel.  
I concur with this.  
His daughter Agafia Lykov discussing the falsehood of modern science and the 532 astronomical cycle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME7F-KBpNk8

James Oberg has written informative books refuting Soviet space propaganda, but he also believes the American space propaganda about the moon.  
I do not concur with everything that Oberg writes, but what he writes about satellites both refutes myth and explains how satellites remain airborne:
"The myth that satellites remain in orbit because they have "escaped Earth's gravity" is perpetuated further (and falsely) by almost universal use of the zingy but physically nonsensical phrase "zero gravity" (and its techweenie cousin, "microgravity") to describe the free-falling conditions aboard orbiting space vehicles. Of course, this isn't true; gravity still exists in space.
...
Satellites stay in space because of their tremendous horizontal speed, which allows them -- while being unavoidably pulled toward Earth by gravity -- to fall "over the horizon." The ground's curved withdrawal along the Earth's round surface offsets the satellites' fall toward the ground. Speed, not position or lack of gravity, keeps satellites up..."

- James Oberg
http://www.jamesoberg.com/myth.html
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« Reply #130 on: June 28, 2013, 04:37:48 PM »

A++ -- five star thread -- would read again!
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« Reply #131 on: June 28, 2013, 04:41:43 PM »

I think most folks are missing the real point here . . .

Society of the Spectacle
1973 film directed by Guy DeBord based on his 1960's classic of the same name
http://vimeo.com/60945809

"All that once was directly lived has become mere representation." Debord argues that the history of social life can be understood as "the decline of being into having, and having into merely appearing." This condition, according to Debord, is the "historical moment at which the commodity completes its colonization of social life."

With the term spectacle, Debord defines the system that is a confluence of advanced capitalism, the mass media, and the types of governments who favor those phenomena: "the spectacle, taken in the limited sense of 'mass media' which are its most glaring superficial manifestation". In his [1988] follow-up book, 'Comments on the Society of the Spectacle', Debord referred to the spectacle as coming to existence in the late 1920s.

The spectacle is the inverted image of society in which relations between commodities have supplanted relations between people, in which "passive identification with the spectacle supplants genuine activity". "The spectacle is not a collection of images," Debord writes, "rather, it is a social relationship between people that is mediated by images."

In his analysis of the spectacular society, Debord notes that quality of life is impoverished, with such lack of authenticity, human perceptions are affected, and there's also a degradation of knowledge, with the hindering of critical thought. Debord analyzes the use of knowledge to assuage reality: the spectacle obfuscates the past, imploding it with the future into an undifferentiated mass, a type of never-ending present; in this way the spectacle prevents individuals from realizing that the society of spectacle is only a moment in history, one that can be overturned through revolution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Spectacle

Debord, a man whose teat I cut my teeth on.

Glad to see you are back Dionysii, I might try to catch up with your posts over the next week, if I can.
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« Reply #132 on: June 28, 2013, 05:51:30 PM »

Any thoughts on the magic that is computers? Obvious 1s and 0s and electricity can't really be behind this. How do they do it?
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« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2013, 11:04:18 PM »

Debord, a man whose teat I cut my teeth on.

Glad to see you are back Dionysii, I might try to catch up with your posts over the next week, if I can.
I am overdue to say thanks for all the kind words.
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« Reply #134 on: July 13, 2013, 01:21:20 PM »

Society of the Spectacle
1973 film directed by Guy DeBord based on his 1960's classic of the same name
http://vimeo.com/60945809
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Spectacle

Debord, a man whose teat I cut my teeth on.

His theme is followed by Chris Hedges in:
'Empire of Illusion:  The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHnjc1gde8c   
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« Reply #135 on: July 25, 2013, 07:27:33 PM »

pmpn8rGPT,

I came across a book which makes a good complement to 'Earth Not a Globe' ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za ).  A reprinted nineteenth century translation of Euclid's 'Elements' devoid of all the mishmash of exterior commentary from others in between the lines in other editions.  It is a good ole easy to read nineteenth century English translation side by side with the Greek text online in PDF as well as hardcover:

Euclid's Elements (Hardcover)
http://www.lulu.com/shop/richard-fitzpatrick/euclids-elements/hardcover/product-4087031.html;jsessionid=0088A31621A2C0D77E80CD31C71775F0

Euclid's Elements (Online PDF)
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/Books/Euclid/Elements.pdf

As you may know, the significance of this ancient Greek mathematician is that 'Earth Not a Globe's' author Samuel Rowbotham based his arguments on Euclid's math and logic which are absolute and leave nothing to personal interpretation as Francis Bacon and Einstein have done. 

In this way, we understand how Francis Bacon and his modern scientific method are as great a disgrace and insult to the sciences as Martin Luther has been to religion and God.

+Dionysii
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« Reply #136 on: July 25, 2013, 07:45:40 PM »

pmpn8rGPT,

I came across a book which makes a good complement to 'Earth Not a Globe' ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za ).  A reprinted nineteenth century translation of Euclid's 'Elements' devoid of all the mishmash of exterior commentary from others in between the lines in other editions.  It is a good ole easy to read nineteenth century English translation side by side with the Greek text online in PDF as well as hardcover:

Euclid's Elements (Hardcover)
http://www.lulu.com/shop/richard-fitzpatrick/euclids-elements/hardcover/product-4087031.html;jsessionid=0088A31621A2C0D77E80CD31C71775F0

Euclid's Elements (Online PDF)
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/Books/Euclid/Elements.pdf

As you may know, the significance of this ancient Greek mathematician is that 'Earth Not a Globe's' author Samuel Rowbotham based his arguments on Euclid's math and logic which are absolute and leave nothing to personal interpretation as Francis Bacon and Einstein have done. 

In this way, we understand how Francis Bacon and his modern scientific method are as great a disgrace and insult to the sciences as Martin Luther has been to religion and God.

+Dionysii
Dang, the first time I've read this thread since you left and there right in front of me is a post directed towards me.  I must have telepathy Grin.

Anyways, thanks for finally finding this.  I just finished reading an article by Ibn Baz about his views on a flat earth, literally one hour ago.

Again, I must be psychic. Tongue
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« Reply #137 on: July 25, 2013, 07:48:37 PM »

Any thoughts on the magic that is computers?

Not so much, but when I find the time I could make a good case against nuclear weapons having ever existed.
More specifically, the primary factor that differentiates nuclear weapons from other bombs is wildly exaggerated and systemic propaganda about these bombs.  I have period factual accounts of the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan in 1945 which disprove the exaggerated and mythical propaganda about them in the western media, but the most significant difference between so-called nuclear weapons and conventional large bombs are the myths propagated through media about the so-called nuclear bombs.  That's about it.

------------------------------------------------------------------

However, for the present I can begin on a more basic level by simply showing that atoms do not exist.
Among others, this fact was demonstrated by Dewey Larson in his 1963 book:

'The Case Against the Nuclear Atom'
http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/cana/index.htm
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« Reply #138 on: July 25, 2013, 07:57:58 PM »

I just finished reading an article by Ibn Baz about his views on a flat earth, literally one hour ago.
Yes, Saudi Arabia's wahabi religious leader of a few years back. 
To be fair, I have to say that I checked into Ibn Baz in depth some time ago, and he does not actually believe the earth is flat.

He is a geocentrist.  I'll give him that much, but he believes the world is a globe. 
He did use the words flat earth to describe the way the earth appears, and if that was the end of it, then that would be significant.
However, a controversy erupted, and when he was questioned about this in detail, he explicitly said that he believes the world is a globe and that he used such language to describe how the world can appear to the eyes.

The Wikipedia article about him sets the record straight about this by letting him explain his beliefs himself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Baz
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« Reply #139 on: July 25, 2013, 08:01:36 PM »

Here, however is an Iraqi man, a muslim, who clearly does insist that the Earth is flat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2z91lAPAdc
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« Reply #140 on: July 25, 2013, 08:30:22 PM »

Here, however is an Iraqi man, a muslim, who clearly does insist that the Earth is flat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2z91lAPAdc


OK. and why should the older gentleman wearing glasses be taken as an authority?

Just for starters his claim that "no doctor has succeeded in understanding how the eye works" is not true and then there's "if we split the iris in half"  which would seem to be *his* understanding of how the eye works.  I wonder at the translation, but the "split" view is what bifocal glasses do more like (writing as someone who has had that sort of eye lens for some years)

It might be noted that the title of this video is "Sadly, they still have to pwn flat-earthers in Iraq..."
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« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2013, 08:38:52 PM »

I just finished reading an article by Ibn Baz about his views on a flat earth, literally one hour ago.
Yes, Saudi Arabia's wahabi religious leader of a few years back. 
To be fair, I have to say that I checked into Ibn Baz in depth some time ago, and he does not actually believe the earth is flat.

He is a geocentrist.  I'll give him that much, but he believes the world is a globe. 
He did use the words flat earth to describe the way the earth appears, and if that was the end of it, then that would be significant.
However, a controversy erupted, and when he was questioned about this in detail, he explicitly said that he believes the world is a globe and that he used such language to describe how the world can appear to the eyes.

The Wikipedia article about him sets the record straight about this by letting him explain his beliefs himself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Baz
Still my favorite Wahabist (and close to the top on Muslims overall).

I do remember hearing a critique of an article by him (possibly the same one?) comparing it to the Galileo trials.  Other than that and the article that is all that I know of his views on astronomy.
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« Reply #142 on: July 26, 2013, 03:31:31 AM »

Ibn Baz
...
Still my favorite Wahabist (and close to the top on Muslims overall).

It is good to hear about prominent people who reject heliocentrism.

However, I suggest you compare Wahabys to Sufis.
If we made a rough analogy between Islam and Christendom, then the Shiites are most analogous to Eastern Orthodoxy.
The Sunnis are analogous to the Franks, and Wahabism is most like protestantism.  

Protestantism broke off of the Franks and abolished ancient Christian traditions.
Wahabys broke off of the Sunnis, and abolished ancient Islamic traditions.

Wahabism only dates to the 1700's and includes the Taliban, Osama bin Laden, and the corrupt leaders of Saudi Arabia.
Wahhabism is not traditional Islam, and it has a western origin.
As a matter of fact, the 'Memoirs of Mr. Hempher' is an approximately 200 year old document that shows that the founder of Wahabism, Ibn al Wahab was directed by an employee of the British government with the aim of creating a movement which would eventually fragment the Ottoman empire.  

Sufism is the extreme opposite end of the Islamic spectrum from Wahabism.
Some Sufist sects have preserved Eastern Orthodox practices within Islam such as Zikr chants and also prayers and other practices modeled after the hesychasm of eastern Christians.
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« Reply #143 on: July 26, 2013, 01:16:43 PM »

Ibn Baz
...
Still my favorite Wahabist (and close to the top on Muslims overall).

It is good to hear about prominent people who reject heliocentrism.

However, I suggest you compare Wahabys to Sufis.
If we made a rough analogy between Islam and Christendom, then the Shiites are most analogous to Eastern Orthodoxy.
The Sunnis are analogous to the Franks, and Wahabism is most like protestantism.  

Protestantism broke off of the Franks and abolished ancient Christian traditions.
Wahabys broke off of the Sunnis, and abolished ancient Islamic traditions.

Wahabism only dates to the 1700's and includes the Taliban, Osama bin Laden, and the corrupt leaders of Saudi Arabia.
Wahhabism is not traditional Islam, and it has a western origin.
As a matter of fact, the 'Memoirs of Mr. Hempher' is an approximately 200 year old document that shows that the founder of Wahabism, Ibn al Wahab was directed by an employee of the British government with the aim of creating a movement which would eventually fragment the Ottoman empire.  

Sufism is the extreme opposite end of the Islamic spectrum from Wahabism.
Some Sufist sects have preserved Eastern Orthodox practices within Islam such as Zikr chants and also prayers and other practices modeled after the hesychasm of eastern Christians.
I was aware of all of the stuff concerning the Wahabists, however I did not know of the Sufi practices preserved from Orthodoxy. 

I must say, your posts never fail to fascinate me.
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« Reply #144 on: July 27, 2013, 06:47:17 PM »

As a matter of fact, the 'Memoirs of Mr. Hempher' is an approximately 200 year old document that shows that the founder of Wahabism, Ibn al Wahab was directed by an employee of the British government with the aim of creating a movement which would eventually fragment the Ottoman empire.

You mean that "Anglophobic variation on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?

It's hard for me to tell whether you're a troll or whether you are boundlessly credulous.
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