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Author Topic: India, Ethopia, Gagarin  (Read 4595 times) Average Rating: 1
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« on: April 22, 2013, 12:14:47 PM »

I think the confusion has to do with how ancient Christians conceived geography - the Aithiopes (those with faces scorched by the sun) were thought to be at the southernmost limit of the world. They must have had a vague idea that India was someplace around there too.   
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 08:38:14 PM »

I think the confusion has to do with how ancient Christians conceived geography

I do not agree.
To dismiss the association of India with Aethiopia as an alleged geographical ignorance of ancient Christians is an assumption without any foundation.

As the famous author of a sixth century Byzantine flat earth cosmography, Cosmas Indicopleustes of Egypt is associated with ancient Christian geography as much as anyone, and he personally visited both Aethiopia and the India (Sri Lanka) among other places as a merchant mariner in the Indian Ocean (in the time of Roman Emperor Justinian) before becoming a monk at Saint Catherine's in Sinai. 

By the time of the Roman Emperor Justinian, the distinction between India in Asia and Aethiopia in east Africa was well known even to Greeks who were the most ignorant and least ancient empire of the pre-Roman world.  The ancient Christian cosmographer Cosmas Indicopleustes also states this as has more recently, Martin Bernal.  http://www.blackathena.com/outline.php 

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.  Considering that Hamitic peoples were the founders and masters of technology and the practical sciences, the ocean between India and Aethiopia had never obstructed their commerce. 
Writers as diverse as NAACP founder W.E.B. DuBois and creation scientist Arthur Custance have come to the same conclusion about the Hamitic races and technology. 
http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_I/Chapter3.html

And btw, if there was some historical event in Ethiopia at the core of this tradition, how would that exclude heavy borrowing from the Buddha's story in the hagiographical account?
"But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."
- Saint Paul (1 Timothy 4:7)

If you want to find the disciples of the Buddhists, you can look to the Greek philosophers.  One of the most influential was Pythagoras who went to India from where he brought the doctrine of metempsychosis (associated with reincarnation) to the west.  I believe that Hippolytus wrote that one of Pythagoras's students founded the Druids.
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 11:25:49 AM »

I think the confusion has to do with how ancient Christians conceived geography

I do not agree.
To dismiss the association of India with Aethiopia as an alleged geographical ignorance of ancient Christians is an assumption without any foundation.

You also assume a wide reception of Cosma's Topography. That might have been the case after the 6/7th century. However, the Axumite Kingdom had been an important link in the trade between India and the Roman Empire from the 1st century onwards. So, it may well be that in the imagination of some of the ancients Ethiopia and India were at least neighboring countries, if not jumbled together.

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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 12:00:03 PM »

it may well be that in the imagination of some of the ancients Ethiopia and India were at least neighboring countries, if not jumbled together.

You're saying that some ancient people were ignorant of Indian Ocean geography even while merchants of their own times travelled those seas?
Again, where is the evidence of an alleged preponderant ignorance of geography?
That's like claiming some redneck rural Texas believes that South America is physically connected to Africa.
Out general state of knowledge are not represented by the most ignorant segments of the population.

You also assume a wide reception of Cosma's Topography. That might have been the case after the 6/7th century. However, the Axumite Kingdom had been an important link in the trade between India and the Roman Empire from the 1st century onwards.
Another well known document is the 'Periplus of the Erythraen Sea' written by a merchant mariner who travelled the Indian Ocean andthe Red Sea during the first century after Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

Both the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes and the Periplus of the Erythraen Sea show that mariners in both the first century after Christ and in the sixth century after Christ had a nautical knowledge of the Indian Ocean which was detailed enough for travel to both Aethiopia and India.  Both of these documents are evidence of accurate knowledge by the ancients - not ignornace.
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 12:09:23 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 12:11:17 PM »

You're saying that some ancient people were ignorant of Indian Ocean geography even while merchants of their own times travelled those seas?

Is that so preposterous?

Why should a hagiographer have the knowledge of a seafaring merchant?

That's like claiming some redneck rural Texas believes that South America is physically connected to Africa.
Out general state of knowledge are not represented by the most ignorant segments of the population.

In another day and age the knowledge of a modern "redneck rural" Texan could have passed for brilliant - information was not always as readily available (even to literate people) as it has become in the modern age. 

Another well known document is the 'Periplus of the Erythraen Sea' written by a merchant mariner who travelled the Indian Ocean andthe Red Sea during the first century after Christ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

Both the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes and the Periplus of the Erythraen Sea show that mariners in both the first century after Christ and in the sixth century after Christ had a nautical knowledge of the Indian Ocean which was detailed enough for travel to both Aethiopia and India.  Both of these documents are evidence of accurate knowledge by the ancients - not ignornace.

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right? The title of the work you refer to attests to it: to get to India, you just had to sail around the one big "Red Sea"...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:19:30 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 12:29:59 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.


"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:41:34 PM by Dionysii » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 12:41:05 PM »

Ethiopians and Indians both eat samosas. Case closed.
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 12:44:59 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.


"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse. 

Mind = blown

Also, Pseudo-Callisthenes
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »

The association of India and Aethiopia with each other in ancient books indicates a connection between them. According to the 'Deeds of Alexandre' the Great written by Alexandre's own court historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, the rulers of the Aethiopians and Indians had maintained close connections since remote antiquity.

That work is lost so there's no way to check it.


"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse. 

Sounds like good material for another Sinbad movie.
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 12:55:52 PM »

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right?
I am confident that statement is not the sharpest knife in your arsenal.  

I was in the Bab al Mandeb straight last year actually during a visit to Djibouti with the military.
I discovered that Osama bin Laden's brother intends to construct a bridge from Yemen to Africa.

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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 01:08:39 PM »

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right?
I am confident that statement is not the sharpest knife in your arsenal. 

Quote
In the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, written in the 1st century AD, as well as in some ancient maps, the name of the sea refers to the whole area of the northwestern Indian Ocean, including the Arabian Sea.

In centuries past the name 'Erythraean Sea' was applied by cartographers to the NW part of the Indian Ocean, mainly the area around Socotra, between Cape Guardafui and the coast of Hadhramaut. This name has now become obsolete and the name Gulf of Aden is presently used, although for a smaller area. In maps where the NW Indian Ocean is named thus, the Red Sea appears as "Arabian Gulf".

The name "Erythraean Sea" was used as well to refer to some gulfs attached to the Indian Ocean, specifically, the Persian Gulf.

As a name for the Red Sea, especially after the 19th century. The modern country of Eritrea was named after this ancient Greek name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythraean_Sea

Otherwise, I am aware that there was a time when the Arabian Peninsula was connected to Africa.
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 01:14:12 PM »

In the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, written in the 1st century AD, as well as in some ancient maps, the name of the sea refers to the whole area of the northwestern Indian Ocean, including the Arabian Sea.

Bab al Mandeb is the straight which separates the Red Sea from the Indian Ocean. 
(I went scuba diving last year off of Moucha island in the Gulf of Tadjoura just to the southwest.)
In the photograph of Bab al Mandeb straight posted above, the Red Sea is north of Bab Al Mandeb.
South of Bab al Mandeb is the Indian Ocean.

You believe ancient mariners could not tell the difference because of the word "Erythraean".  Got it.
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 01:21:37 PM »

And you believe mariners back then could not tell the difference because of the word "Erythraean".  Got it.

I'm sure mariners could tell them apart and might have called them differently, but my point was exactly that geographic names often got confused in Antiquity (i.e. different people used them to refer to different places).

Conversely, the Yam Suf the Hebrews crossed in Exodus got translated as Erythra Thalassa in Greek. Today this identification is contested.   
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 06:34:22 PM »

"The life and exploits of Alexander the Great : being a series of translations of the Ethiopic histories of Alexander by the Pseudo-Callisthenes and other writers, with introduction, etc. (1896)"
translated by Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
http://archive.org/details/cu31924091208573

An English translation of the (shorter) Greek manuscript version of Callisthenes's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Alexander-Romance-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445609

---------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I already know many modern scholars ignore this manuscript.  It was the standard medieval and ancient story of Alexander.
In my opinion, it is also the best.  We find along with a detailed explanation how Alexader's biological father was Nectanebo of Egypt, the last of the African pre-Greek pharaoahs, submarine travel in the arctic, his meeting with the Chinese Emperor in Xi'an, and his battle with monstrous races in Scythia whom he imprisoned and sealed between mountains in the Caucasus.  This last accords historical precedent for the prophecies by Saint Andrew the Fool for Christ and Saint Methodius of Patara about these monstrous races being released during the apocalypse.  

Pseudo-Callisthenes

To say that Callisthenes did not write this book merely because the word "pseudo" appears on the cover of a modern translation is to uncritically accept the opinion of modern infidels over that of Church Fathers as well as ancient and medieval Christian writers who wrote about Alexandre the Great and used his book as their source.  

You also assume a wide reception of Cosma's Topography.
The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 07:15:08 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2013, 07:26:16 PM »

The fourth century cosmography of Aethicus of Istria edited by Saint Jerome was taught by Archbishop Hrabanus Maurus, the teacher of Germany, in ninth century Carolingian europe.  
William Smith's nineteenth century Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography asserted the traditional fourth century date for the cosmographer Aethicus of Istria.  Twentieth century infidels have arbitrarily reassigned this writer to the eighth century.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0DIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=hrabanus+maurus+aethicus&source=bl&ots=glk0G_M6CU&sig=VMFXxP9UzWmr2qGh52vkJJTIE_c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pGh4Uf32D8eOrQGH2YDYAg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=hrabanus%20maurus%20aethicus&f=false

An English translation of Hrabanus Maurus's Encyclopaedia has just been published in two volumes.
http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/priscilla-throop/hrabanus-maurus-de-universo-volume-one/paperback/product-4500129.html
http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/priscilla-throop/hrabanus-maurus-de-universo-volume-two/paperback/product-4809765.html

The flat earth beliefs of Cosmas Indicopleuestes epitomized the perspective of the ancient world generally and ancient Christians especially.
The refusal of modern writers to accept this and their efforts to minimize and portray him as an eccentricity indicates only their own stupidity and close mindedness.
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2013, 07:27:15 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
Istria is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2013, 07:57:51 PM »

My new most looked forward to discussions on stuff I don't understand around here:

Anything between Dionysii and Romaios.
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2013, 07:59:29 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
Istria is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.

Just FYI, he's referring to user ialmisry whose first name is Isa.
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2013, 08:04:34 PM »

Where in the world is Isa?
Istria is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.

Just FYI, he's referring to user ialmisry whose first name is Isa.

Who I like to think is a peninsula of the northern Adriatic in modern Slovenia just east of Venice.

What a world of wonder that would be!

Dionysii, if you don't know ialmisry has a map for everything and forgot today more than I will ever known about geography and history and does so in about seven languages.
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2013, 08:06:14 PM »

I am aware that there was a time when the Arabian Peninsula was connected to Africa.
If you mean a physical land connection between them, then such a theory sounds like uniformitarianism which is the geological equivalent of evolution.

If you mean a historical connection between the peoples on either side, then I would agree.
The first dynasty to rule Aethiopia after the flood of Noah was the Hamitic dynasty of Punt which was based in Meroe in modern Sudan.  

The Sabeans of west Arabia in modern Yemen were Semitic descendents of Sheba whose grandmother was Keturah, the concubine of Abraham.
The second historical dynasty of Aethiopia began when these Sabeans invaded the Horn of Africa in 1985 B.C. and established a new dynasty and capitol that ruled Aethiopia from Axum which remained the capitol many centuries into the Christian era.  
The Tigrayans of northern Aethiopia are descendents of these Semitic Sabeans.  The biblical Queen Makeda of Sheba was one of them.
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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 01:28:56 AM »

I am aware that there was a time when the Arabian Peninsula was connected to Africa.
If you mean a physical land connection between them, then such a theory sounds like uniformitarianism which is the geological equivalent of evolution.

If you mean a historical connection between the peoples on either side, then I would agree.

I mean it both ways - some scientists believe that that is how homo sapiens crossed from Africa into Asia.

The Ethiopian (Semitic) languages are closely related to old South Arabian.
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 01:38:48 AM »

My new most looked forward to discussions on stuff I don't understand around here:

Anything between Dionysii and Romaios.

I must admit I'm not terribly keen on ancient geography, but I do have a hunch that Dionysii takes for granted the historicity of lots of mythical stories and believes all ancients are dead accurate on geography.   
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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 02:40:23 AM »

You do realize they couldn't distinguish between what we now know as the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, right?
I am confident that statement is not the sharpest knife in your arsenal.  

I was in the Bab al Mandeb straight last year actually during a visit to Djibouti with the military.
I discovered that Osama bin Laden's brother intends to construct a bridge from Yemen to Africa.


Djibouti, I've been there.  No desire to go back.  Maybe it is nicer these days, but not much fun when I was there.
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« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2013, 02:42:32 AM »

Have we all concluded Buddha is not an Orthodox Saint explaining why all of the other discussion is taking place?
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 04:13:46 AM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 11:55:56 AM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
Yes, that is what I believe.
I made a couple posts on that subject in James' thread on the cosmos:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html
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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 12:01:47 PM »

The Sabeans of west Arabia in modern Yemen were Semitic descendents of Sheba whose grandmother was Keturah, the concubine of Abraham.
The second historical dynasty of Aethiopia began when these Sabeans invaded the Horn of Africa in 1985 B.C. and established a new dynasty and capitol that ruled Aethiopia from Axum which remained the capitol many centuries into the Christian era.

The Ethiopian (Semitic) languages are closely related to old South Arabian.

Yes, it makes sense. These two statements correspond with each other.
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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 12:04:20 PM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact. 
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
Yes, that is what I believe.
I made a couple posts on that subject in James' thread on the cosmos:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html

How do you explain how ships appear and disappear over the horizon? Or how airplanes need to compensate for traveling in a curved line when it comes to refueling? Or you know, the fact that we've been into space and seen how the earth curves? I'm not talking about the Felix Baumgartener fish-eye lens shot, but shots from the International Space Station (which is visible from the ground using a telescope, BTW). Even in the original Felix Baumgartener picture, you can still see the Earth curve, it's just not as overt. Do you just ignore all of that?
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« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 12:25:39 PM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity. Those adhering to a flat earth hypothesis are the exception. A spherical model of the earth can be found in St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory Palamas' 150 Chapters, for example.
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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 12:56:30 PM »

Have we all concluded Buddha is not an Orthodox Saint explaining why all of the other discussion is taking place?
Yes.
If the story is confirmed to have indeed taken place in Aethiopia, then the Buddhist theory is that much more absurd.

The main question is precisely when and where did Joasaph reign as king?
To that end, the identification of India as inner Aethiopia is interesting. 
I will have to look into the history of King Ezana and fourth century Aethiopia a bit more.

"In the time of Constantine the Great there lived in India a pagan king named Abenner, who had only one son, Joasaph"
http://www.roca.org/OA/64/64p.htm
I wonder from what source they know that it was during the time of Saint Constantine the Great.
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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2013, 01:03:07 PM »

Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity. Those adhering to a flat earth hypothesis are the exception. A spherical model of the earth can be found in St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory Palamas' 150 Chapters, for example.
Aristotelian ideas dominated the Franks during the late middle ages since it was inherent in Thomism.

As to Saint Basil, you are mistaken. He also knew the earth to be flat. 
When he wrote of a spherical cosmos, he understood the firmament to be spherical since the heaven is domed.
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2013, 01:06:33 PM »

Why would Ethiopia have been identified with India?

It happened quite often in Antiquity, so it wouldn't be strange.
On a Roman map

on a modern map
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2013, 01:15:31 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2013, 01:27:25 PM »

Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity. Those adhering to a flat earth hypothesis are the exception. A spherical model of the earth can be found in St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory Palamas' 150 Chapters, for example.
Aristotelian ideas dominated the Franks during the late middle ages since it was inherent in Thomism.

The Aristotelian cosmology of concentric spheres was pretty universal throughout the Roman/ Post-Roman world, Thomism or no Thomism. Or do you consider St. Gregory Palamas a Frankish Thomist?

Quote
As to Saint Basil, you are mistaken. He also knew the earth to be flat. 
When he wrote of a spherical cosmos, he understood the firmament to be spherical since the heaven is domed.

That would make a hemispherical heaven, not a spherical one.
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2013, 01:35:55 PM »

The flat earth views of Cosmas Indicopleustes were the views of all the Church Fathers and civilization generally.
Nineteenth century science historians such as John Draper and Andrew White acknoweged this fact.  
Saint John Chrysosotm and Saint Jerome in the fourth century had the same geographical and astronomical views as Cosmas Indicopleuetes.
Saint Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, translated and edited a flat earth cosmology by a Scythian named Aethicus.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmography-Aethicus-Ister-Publications/dp/2503535771

So the earth is flat?
Yes, that is what I believe.
I made a couple posts on that subject in James' thread on the cosmos:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50550.0.html

Yours and Opus's comments were interesting, really better than your and Romaios'. I can't imagine Opus not writing something that I am completely not mesmerized by. I did after all think I had found true love with him once, before I knew he was a him, and that he is a too old him.

Could you expand on the flat earth stuff. I don't want to argue. I've just never really "met" anyone who really held this belief in any serious manner.
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 01:58:17 PM »

Quote from: Iconodule
Actually the Platonic and especially Aristotelian understanding of a spherical earth predominates in late antiquity and medieval Christianity.
...
The Aristotelian cosmology of concentric spheres was pretty universal throughout the Roman/ Post-Roman world
Evidence for this? You subjugate the Church Fathers to Aristotle.    

The introduction to the Penguin Classics edition of Augustine's 'City of God' states that flat earth science became predominant in the Roman world during the century prior to Constantine the Great.  

Arthur Koestler's 'Sleepwalkers' states that the globularism of Claudius Ptolemy gave way to the flat earth science of the likes of Lactantius and Cosmas Indicopleuestes. Ptolemy's spherical geography was not revived in the Latin west until the late twelfth century.  

Saint Justinian the Roman Emperor believed that the earth is flat and patronized Cosmas Indicopleustes who made the oldest known extant map of Jerusalem which is a mosaic flat earth map on the floor of a sixth century Church of Saint George in Madaba, Jordan.  The eastern part of this map depicts the four rivers of Paradise flowing west from the Garden of Eden.  The scholar Picirrilo came to these conclusions after a study
of the archives of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.  This website is one chapter of the book he poduced about the Madaba map.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mad
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 02:09:01 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2013, 02:09:19 PM »

Could you expand on the flat earth stuff. I don't want to argue. I've just never really "met" anyone who really held this belief in any serious manner.

Sadly, it is even more rare to find one such as yourself who is only interested in civilized discussion rather than proselytism.  
Regardless of what you believe about geography, I respect you more than others because of this.
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2013, 02:12:51 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.
Good stuff here.

As to Isidore of Seville, I concur with Andrew White that he held a flat earth understanding similar to the T-O map shown above.

Cosmas Indicopleustes spoke of "climes" which is a word that seems interchangeable with the zones of the first map above.
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 02:18:29 PM »

Not sure if I follow the map here. Wanna explain it for me?

Edit: Here's a full resolution version of the first map.
the lightened area on the modern map is the land in the Roman map.

The trifoil shaped island, labeled "Insula Dorrados," to the left of the middle of the bottom of the Roman map is Socotra, near Ethiopia.

This might make it clearer how it arranges the world, at the bottom.


Ah ok, I'm also starting to make out some more features. I see the Ganges and the Indus rivers mentioned. I also see an Abyoscinia up on the top, is that supposed to be Abyssinia?
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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2013, 02:47:20 PM »

Cosmas Indicopleustes wrote of large islands on the other side of the arctic which would perhaps correspond with North America.
If that is the case, then he was mistaken to assert that they are uninhabited.

However, ancient Greek geographers believed in hyperborea which was a land located "beyond the north wind in a region of eternal sunlight".
The other possibility is that the lands which he spoke of are actually located in the arctic and remain uncharted in recent centuries.
The famous sixteenth century cartographer Gerhard Mercator wrote about islands of mountains in the arctic and included them in his chart of the North regions.
  
MERCATOR ARCTIC CHART (DETAIL)
Complete Chart:  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-l4zG_gVZEmo/TsZKPwmkxVI/AAAAAAAACKs/TjggPDc5ehU/s1600/Meru+%252811%2529.jpg  



Both Cosmas Indicopleustes and Aethicus of Istria wrote of a great mountain in the arctic around which the sun, moon, and stars orbited.  The shadow cast by this mountain creates night upon the parts of the world opposite to the sun.  The eighteenth century Russian scientist Lomonosov tried to find the location of this mountain, and Catherine the Great of Russia sent a fleet of ships to the arctic seek out this mountain.

Russian Scientist Finds Paradise at North Pole
http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/29-11-2006/85697-paradise-1/

This is the basis of the old view of a land mass in the North.  It is the view reflected in the Bible in the Book of the prophet Isaiah 14 when Satan declares his intention to ascend to the top of the great mountain in the recesses of the North.  

The great arctic mountain is as common to the most ancient histories of every nation and cosmographical tradition as the flood of Noah.  
'The King of the World' by Rene Guenon reproduces details of ancient traditions about the arctic mountain amd what it is called in various religions and traditions.  It is called Mehru by the Hindus and Buddhists.  The zoroastrians and later the Sufis have traditions about it as well.  

The tabernacle of Cosmas Indicopleustes.


A degree of mystery and imprecision surrounded the arctic for most people until the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries when the self-contradictory claims of Robert Peary and Frederck Cooke became widely accepted.  The widespread acceptance of their manifest lies ended realistic thinking about the arctic region.  
I do not endorse the belief of Marshall Gardner that the world is a hollow globe, but he did an excellent job of refuting the claims of Peary and Cooke which cannot withstand scrutiny.  
Was the North Pole Discovered?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/jei/jei12.htm

Two Congressional Opinions on Peary and Cooke
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/jei/jei13.htm

The logical conclusion is that uncharted regions of the arctic remain inspite of the artifical and inadequate coordinate system superimposed upon the north, and both the farthest North and other regions have not been reached by modern explorers.  
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« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 02:53:18 PM »

Dionysii, do you use Google maps or GPS? What do you think of satellites? Pictures of Earth taken from space?
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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2013, 03:11:46 PM »

What do you think of satellites?
I have not thought about that at length.  Nor am I obliged to do so.
However, I am open to hear new explanations of such phenomena which would tell me something I have not already heard.

Pictures of Earth taken from space?
If they portray the earth as spherical, then they likely have either been fabricated by a computer or run through a fish lens to curve the image.
The distortion of the earth to give it a rounded appearance in the background of images of Felix Baumgartner is a case in point.
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