Author Topic: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?  (Read 6787 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,421
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #90 on: August 03, 2013, 03:00:19 PM »
The following article by Dr. John Jones of Marquette University is helpful:

Misreading the Divine Names as a Science
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Online Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,657
  • Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2013, 03:00:31 PM »
I see no problems with quoting Cicero in a Catechism. "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
That begs the question, was Cicero's Stoic Natural Law good.  Good enough for Christian theology, definitely not, which is why the Fathers had a critical eye towards it (its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).

Cicero wasn't a Stoic. He was an eclectic philosopher. Most of the Fathers probably never read any of Cicero's works.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 03:00:44 PM by Cyrillic »
"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."
-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #92 on: August 03, 2013, 04:01:23 PM »
Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
Sigh, there is a difference between citing someone as an authority on Christian dogma, and citing a person as a common witness to the truth.
yes, and in its rise Scholasticism dispensed with that difference.
So says Isa. Actually, Aquinas teaches that faith is superior, and more certain than reason, because faith is based on the revelation which comes form God, who cannot deceive. Isa, stop making stuff up.
Stop taking lip service for substance.
Again, stop making stuff up.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2013, 04:02:30 PM »
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:28
Citing a pagan authority to pagans is one thing, citing him to Christians on Christian theology is another.
Why? If what he said is true, then there is no problem. Truth is truth no matter who is saying it.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2013, 04:03:19 PM »
Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
Sigh, there is a difference between citing someone as an authority on Christian dogma, and citing a person as a common witness to the truth.
yes, and in its rise Scholasticism dispensed with that difference.
Saying it is so, doesn't make it so Isa. As for scholasticism, I will take Aquinas as my example.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2013, 04:04:46 PM »
I see no problems with quoting Cicero in a Catechism. "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
That begs the question, was Cicero's Stoic Natural Law good.  Good enough for Christian theology, definitely not, which is why the Fathers had a critical eye towards it (its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).
Any intelligent person can take the good and throw out the bad. Catholics are not stoics. Yet, that doesn't mean that everything that every stoic ever said was a lie.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #96 on: August 03, 2013, 04:05:15 PM »
I see no problems with quoting Cicero in a Catechism. "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
^ This
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #97 on: August 03, 2013, 04:21:44 PM »
Ok. I'm going to self-moderate here. Some people in the world (I will not say who) like to purposely misrepresent the scholasticism of Aquinas in order to score polemical points. There are instances in which conversations on this matter with certain posters has led to me saying something stupid and getting myself moderated.

So.....

Here is what I am going to do. If anyone interested in learning what Thoimstic Scholasticism is all about, and wants to learn this free from distortions and strawmen, then feel free to PM me. I will answer your questions and include citations from Aquinas' Summa theologiae, Summa contra gentiles, De ente et essentia, and Commentary on De trinitate.

I am not going to get further drawn into merry-go-round with a poster on this thread who will not give the opposing side a charitable hearing.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,479
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2013, 04:51:36 PM »
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:28
Citing a pagan authority to pagans is one thing, citing him to Christians on Christian theology is another.
Why? If what he said is true, then there is no problem. Truth is truth no matter who is saying it.
Scripture was true when Satan quoted it to the Lord in the desert, but I wouldn't take his/its eisogesis with it.

A diamond in the rough rock is still a diamond, but it needs to be extracted and polished.

Btw, if it is philisophical truth, then it wouldn't need attribution, as it would-or should-be equally accessible to all.  Aquinas wouldn't need all his references to "the Philosopher."
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 04:58:37 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,421
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2013, 05:59:51 PM »
Another helpful essay written by Dr. John D. Jones, the former chairman of the Philosophy Department (1998-2004) at Marquette University, and the author of various studies examining the theology of Pseudo-Dionysios the Areopagite. In the essay below he compares and contrasts the Neoplatonic, Scholastic, and (what he calls) Byzantine approach to the term hyperousios ousia as used by Pseudo-Dionysios:

Manifesting Beyond-being Being (hyperousios ousia): The Divine Essence-Energies Distinction for Pseudo-Dionysios Areopagite
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #100 on: August 03, 2013, 06:48:26 PM »
(its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).

I've started leaning towards a deterministic position. Remember what I was saying to you in PM about having to work out philosophical issues?

immanence and pantheism being the other ones.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Daedelus1138

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #101 on: August 03, 2013, 08:58:18 PM »
Probably not. Not stated that way anyway. Based on what I recall from the Fathers, "worldly knowledge" can be considered beneficial, but mostly as a means towards salvation or communion with God. Now if, say, contemplating or revealing the glory of the creation is what you mean, then surely this is beneficial. But does it have meaning apart from salvation or God, as a sort of learning for the secular sake of learning (science for the secular sake of science, etc.)? Probably not. That isn't to say that everything has to have a direct and clear spiritual benefit, I don't think. And even spiritual benefits can be understood widely here; for one example, if pursuing something in science (or using reason) is enjoyable and helps keep you in a good state of mind, then I think that qualifies as being an advantage (the story of St. Anthony and the bow comes to mind here). But the Fathers (again, from what I recall) seem cautious about us being led away from a focus on God by indulging the temptation of spending too much time chasing down whatever trivial things strike our fancy.

  Isn't salvation healing of the whole person?  How about Christian medical scientists that are inspired to find ways to fight diseases?  I've heard of this happening in the case of leprosy for instance.  A Christian doctor encounters a leprosy patient and is moved in his heart to use his mind to fight the disease.  Or did God not come to heal us in this world, just save our souls for the next- a subtle kind of gnosticism.  
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:59:30 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Online Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,541
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #102 on: August 03, 2013, 09:01:34 PM »
Probably not. Not stated that way anyway. Based on what I recall from the Fathers, "worldly knowledge" can be considered beneficial, but mostly as a means towards salvation or communion with God. Now if, say, contemplating or revealing the glory of the creation is what you mean, then surely this is beneficial. But does it have meaning apart from salvation or God, as a sort of learning for the secular sake of learning (science for the secular sake of science, etc.)? Probably not. That isn't to say that everything has to have a direct and clear spiritual benefit, I don't think. And even spiritual benefits can be understood widely here; for one example, if pursuing something in science (or using reason) is enjoyable and helps keep you in a good state of mind, then I think that qualifies as being an advantage (the story of St. Anthony and the bow comes to mind here). But the Fathers (again, from what I recall) seem cautious about us being led away from a focus on God by indulging the temptation of spending too much time chasing down whatever trivial things strike our fancy.

  Isn't salvation healing of the whole person?  

Yes. And that is not at odds with what I said :)
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,479
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2013, 12:23:39 AM »
I see no problems with quoting Cicero in a Catechism. "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
That begs the question, was Cicero's Stoic Natural Law good.  Good enough for Christian theology, definitely not, which is why the Fathers had a critical eye towards it (its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).
I forgot to mention its determinism-especially involved in its "natural law."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,479
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2013, 12:25:37 AM »
(its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).

I've started leaning towards a deterministic position. Remember what I was saying to you in PM about having to work out philosophical issues?

immanence and pantheism being the other ones.
Ah.  I actually took a long road away from determinism.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2013, 11:21:26 AM »
(its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).

I've started leaning towards a deterministic position. Remember what I was saying to you in PM about having to work out philosophical issues?

immanence and pantheism being the other ones.
Ah.  I actually took a long road away from determinism.
Right, if I am not mistaken you are a compatibilist.

I think freedom is a necessity of its own nature but determined by and through action. I negate free will by determining my will to act in an of itself, but this will can only be recognized by others when a struggle is made with another will being determined by action.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan