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Author Topic: Why does Orthodoxy reject Scholasticism?  (Read 4817 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2013, 10:52:45 PM »

I came across something, a list of the errors of Scholasticism, on the always (or nearly so) excellent Mystagogy.
Quote
1. That religious knowledge is divided into two categories - "natural" theology and revealed theology.

2. That God's essence bears a resemblance to creatures.

3. That we reason up from creatures via "analogia entis" to know something of God's essence.

4. God created things in the world after archetypes of things pre-existing in His essence.

5. That nature and Person are identical in God.

6. That essence and energy/action are the same in God, as well as all attributes being the same. This "god" is actus purus - pure act.

7. That the meaning if theosis or salvation is being raised to a higher level of created grace.

8. That the eschaton is an intellectual vision of the essence of God, as well as being a bizarre lake of lava where demons throw you in and out and evil and sin continue in eternal opposition to God (dualism).
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/02/root-issues-of-western-scholasticism.html
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« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2013, 02:13:46 AM »

   I've heard a few evangelicals say that the theology of the East undermines the Gospel message because it would render language about God unintelligible.  That is my concern with saying God is unknowable.  I would even suggest that Jesus says otherwise, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".
We are Christian theists, not agnostics; God is both known and unknown.  http://katachriston.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/who-or-what-is-god/

"These, then, are the two “poles” in man’s experience of the Divine. God is both further from us, and nearer to us, than anything else. And we find, paradoxically, that these two “poles” do not cancel one another out: on the contrary, the more we are attracted to the one “pole”, the more vividly we become aware of the other at the same time. Advancing on the Way, each finds that God grows ever more intimate and ever more distant, well known and yet unknown—well known to the smallest child, incomprehensible to the most brilliant theologian. God dwells in “light unapproachable”, yet man stands in his presence with loving confidence and addresses him as friend. God is both end-point and starting-point. He is the host who welcomes us at the conclusion of the journey, yet he is also the companion who walks by our side at every step upon the Way. As St Nicolas Cabasilas puts it, “He is both the inn at which we rest for a night and the final end of our journey.” -Bishop Kallistos


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« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2013, 02:14:59 PM »

I came across something, a list of the errors of Scholasticism, on the always (or nearly so) excellent Mystagogy.
Quote
1. That religious knowledge is divided into two categories - "natural" theology and revealed theology.

2. That God's essence bears a resemblance to creatures.

3. That we reason up from creatures via "analogia entis" to know something of God's essence.

4. God created things in the world after archetypes of things pre-existing in His essence.

5. That nature and Person are identical in God.

6. That essence and energy/action are the same in God, as well as all attributes being the same. This "god" is actus purus - pure act.

7. That the meaning if theosis or salvation is being raised to a higher level of created grace.

8. That the eschaton is an intellectual vision of the essence of God, as well as being a bizarre lake of lava where demons throw you in and out and evil and sin continue in eternal opposition to God (dualism).
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/02/root-issues-of-western-scholasticism.html
Natural Theology is not a matter of religious knowledge, as # 1 suggests. Natural Theology is a philosophical knowledge.

BTW, I'm taking natural theology this summer.  Grin
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« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2013, 12:15:18 PM »

So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
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« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2013, 01:48:55 PM »

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2013, 03:46:54 PM »

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
Not yet. And when they do, they say we have no understanding of it.
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2013, 10:37:44 PM »

So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.

    laugh

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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2013, 12:22:22 AM »

#....reject scholasticism?........who's? side are you on?Huh.....the world?..eph.4;17 .......the tempter?..2cor.11;3...... demons by def; ...voices in your head.....they can take up residence in your demo......like crowd-mentality - Heap of teachers 2tim.4;3..1tim.4;1 ............................................................................+++++++++++++++++++++++++++........?...what's the right stuff?............God is the god of our fathers..........you should have the generational religion of the forefathers fathers .......a Kingdom!.........no queendom, no priestdom, no sitting on the fence,no world type gov. .................god raises up the generations of old(royal bloodline)...........god claims kingdom..  ...your dad is to teach you who god is.......the god chosen king is your ethnic father before god, he's gods minister..rom.13;6
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2013, 03:16:44 AM »

#....reject scholasticism?........who's? side are you on?Huh.....the world?..eph.4;17 .......the tempter?..2cor.11;3...... demons by def; ...voices in your head.....they can take up residence in your demo......like crowd-mentality - Heap of teachers 2tim.4;3..1tim.4;1 ............................................................................+++++++++++++++++++++++++++........?...what's the right stuff?............God is the god of our fathers..........you should have the generational religion of the forefathers fathers .......a Kingdom!.........no queendom, no priestdom, no sitting on the fence,no world type gov. .................god raises up the generations of old(royal bloodline)...........god claims kingdom..  ...your dad is to teach you who god is.......the god chosen king is your ethnic father before god, he's gods minister..rom.13;6

I am already dreading when this is no longer fantastic.
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2013, 06:20:24 AM »

#....reject scholasticism?........who's? side are you on?Huh.....the world?..eph.4;17 .......the tempter?..2cor.11;3...... demons by def; ...voices in your head.....they can take up residence in your demo......like crowd-mentality - Heap of teachers 2tim.4;3..1tim.4;1 ............................................................................+++++++++++++++++++++++++++........?...what's the right stuff?............God is the god of our fathers..........you should have the generational religion of the forefathers fathers .......a Kingdom!.........no queendom, no priestdom, no sitting on the fence,no world type gov. .................god raises up the generations of old(royal bloodline)...........god claims kingdom..  ...your dad is to teach you who god is.......the god chosen king is your ethnic father before god, he's gods minister..rom.13;6

I am already dreading when this is no longer fantastic.
I almost spit out my coffee when I read Orthonorm's comment.

So far, in my Natural Theology course ...wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
2 Cor 11:15 "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." [sorry, couldn't resist]

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?
*crickets*
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2013, 07:41:06 AM »

Then if one sees (with glorified eyes) and does not understand, it's not seen with the nous/intellect, right?

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
Not yet. And when they do, they say we have no understanding of it.
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2013, 12:29:48 PM »

Then if one sees (with glorified eyes) and does not understand, it's not seen with the nous/intellect, right?

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
Not yet. And when they do, they say we have no understanding of it.
It's hard to answer your question because I believe that the East and West are using differing metaphysical constructs in order to explain the same mystery. I personally believe that the Byzantine discussion of the essence/energies distinction is a valid way to explain the fact that God is utterly transcendent, yet the sanctified still participate in God's divinity.
I would say the idea that we cannot experience God's essence apart from sanctifying grace, and even then we don't understand it, is just another way of saying that God is utterly transcedent, yet we participate in God's divine life.
The hook here is how we use the word "essence." I am not convinced that the East and the West mean the same thing by essence. I am a Latin, and I would never suggest that we know what God's essence is, nor would I suggest that we will ever know what that essence is. I agree with the EO view on this point.
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« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2013, 07:17:49 AM »

Neither the dogmas or the truth of Christianity are a matter of syllogistic deductive proofs from an Orthodox point of view. "There can be no perception of the world in God without radical repentance, without a continual change of mind" (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, p. 119). It is not the superior intellect which truly knows God but the one who loves God truly knows. That is why even an infant can experience praise and the joy of faith; babes can know what the wisest of philosophers cannot know who do not love God. That is not possible with a syllogism, which is perceivable by the wise and intelligent but less obvious to babes or the infirm.  

   I know this is an old topic... but I was rereading it and I'm curious about what this implies.   Hesyschastic experience is not the sine qua none of being a disciple of Jesus Christ, and there is a place for intellectual pursuits in the Christian life, wouldn't you agree?

  Maybe I am just misunderstanding.  Barth and Bonhoeffer have their own issues too, when you use them as justification for your theology.

 And I'm not sure you aren't confusing Thomist Scholasticism with a certain way the Tridentine RCC used Scholasticism.
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« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2013, 07:20:43 AM »

What do you mean with intellectual persuits?
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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2013, 07:24:04 AM »

What do you mean with intellectual persuits?

  Well, to be frank, I think a scientist glorifies God as least as much as an ignorant "babe" that is idolized  I'm worried some Orthodox see ignorance of the natural world as a good thing, I do believe this is a positive side of the western tradition and its appropriation of Aristotle and Aristotle's interest in empiricism.   Does Orthodoxy have an appreciation for science and reason as goods in themselves? I  know the answer is "yes" in the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

  To go further, some Orthodox in their response to issues like homosexuality have said the scientific evidence doesn't matter to them in determining their knowledge of such terms as "creation", it's all about revelation- Scriptures or Tradition, and there just isn't any way that God would allow somebody to be created gay (to me this is almost gnostic, because it implies a real world hidden behind this one, one that only the privileged few have access to).  The problem I have with that is God is incarnational, wanting to be known.  The idea of natural law does fit with that.   Yes, there are divine mysteries but sometimes some Christians hide behind dismissing natural law as a way to dodge reason and find a foundation beyond authentic, responsible vulnerability, and I don't think Jesus would approve- if anything his whole ministry was about fighting the unreasonableness of the religious leaders of his day, which he disarmed through common sense reasoning.
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« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2013, 07:29:14 AM »

"Appreciation for science and reason as goods in themselves"? That sounds vague. What do you mean with it?
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« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2013, 10:09:28 AM »

Does Orthodoxy have an appreciation for science and reason as goods in themselves?

Probably not. Not stated that way anyway. Based on what I recall from the Fathers, "worldly knowledge" can be considered beneficial, but mostly as a means towards salvation or communion with God. Now if, say, contemplating or revealing the glory of the creation is what you mean, then surely this is beneficial. But does it have meaning apart from salvation or God, as a sort of learning for the secular sake of learning (science for the secular sake of science, etc.)? Probably not. That isn't to say that everything has to have a direct and clear spiritual benefit, I don't think. And even spiritual benefits can be understood widely here; for one example, if pursuing something in science (or using reason) is enjoyable and helps keep you in a good state of mind, then I think that qualifies as being an advantage (the story of St. Anthony and the bow comes to mind here). But the Fathers (again, from what I recall) seem cautious about us being led away from a focus on God by indulging the temptation of spending too much time chasing down whatever trivial things strike our fancy.
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« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2013, 11:19:01 AM »

What do you mean with intellectual persuits?

  Well, to be frank, I think a scientist glorifies God as least as much as an ignorant "babe" that is idolized  I'm worried some Orthodox see ignorance of the natural world as a good thing, I do believe this is a positive side of the western tradition and its appropriation of Aristotle and Aristotle's interest in empiricism.   Does Orthodoxy have an appreciation for science and reason as goods in themselves? I  know the answer is "yes" in the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

  To go further, some Orthodox in their response to issues like homosexuality have said the scientific evidence doesn't matter to them in determining their knowledge of such terms as "creation", it's all about revelation- Scriptures or Tradition, and there just isn't any way that God would allow somebody to be created gay (to me this is almost gnostic, because it implies a real world hidden behind this one, one that only the privileged few have access to).  The problem I have with that is God is incarnational, wanting to be known.  The idea of natural law does fit with that.   Yes, there are divine mysteries but sometimes some Christians hide behind dismissing natural law as a way to dodge reason and find a foundation beyond authentic, responsible vulnerability, and I don't think Jesus would approve- if anything his whole ministry was about fighting the unreasonableness of the religious leaders of his day, which he disarmed through common sense reasoning.
Quite a leap you have taken there.

So, would God create anyone blind?

The idea of natural law as a "real world hidden behind this one" is indeed somewhat gnostic.

As to the privileged few, Christ did talk of a small flock going through the narrow gate.
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« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2013, 12:07:16 PM »

What do you mean with intellectual persuits?

  Well, to be frank, I think a scientist glorifies God as least as much as an ignorant "babe" that is idolized  I'm worried some Orthodox see ignorance of the natural world as a good thing, I do believe this is a positive side of the western tradition and its appropriation of Aristotle and Aristotle's interest in empiricism.   Does Orthodoxy have an appreciation for science and reason as goods in themselves? I  know the answer is "yes" in the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

  To go further, some Orthodox in their response to issues like homosexuality have said the scientific evidence doesn't matter to them in determining their knowledge of such terms as "creation", it's all about revelation- Scriptures or Tradition, and there just isn't any way that God would allow somebody to be created gay (to me this is almost gnostic, because it implies a real world hidden behind this one, one that only the privileged few have access to).  The problem I have with that is God is incarnational, wanting to be known.  The idea of natural law does fit with that.   Yes, there are divine mysteries but sometimes some Christians hide behind dismissing natural law as a way to dodge reason and find a foundation beyond authentic, responsible vulnerability, and I don't think Jesus would approve- if anything his whole ministry was about fighting the unreasonableness of the religious leaders of his day, which he disarmed through common sense reasoning.
Quite a leap you have taken there.

So, would God create anyone blind?

The idea of natural law as a "real world hidden behind this one" is indeed somewhat gnostic.

As to the privileged few, Christ did talk of a small flock going through the narrow gate.
Natural Law is not about some "real world hidden behind this one." It's about human beings utilizing their natural human abilities according to their intended purpose. You may not agree with natural law, but seriouly, it's about time you stop misrepresenting it.
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« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2013, 12:08:00 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2013, 12:18:19 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
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« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2013, 12:35:20 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either).  Nor the muddled "thinking" of NL-which bases itself not on observing nature but by trying to impose its philosophical constructs on nature.
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« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2013, 12:37:12 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
somewhere here I linked to paper on the Plato (or at least Neo-Platonism) Aquinas swallowed with his Aristoteleanism.  That he swallowed it without question, just because-he thought-"the Philosopher" said so, damns NL far more than I ever could.
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« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2013, 12:41:16 PM »

What do you mean with intellectual persuits?

  Well, to be frank, I think a scientist glorifies God as least as much as an ignorant "babe" that is idolized  I'm worried some Orthodox see ignorance of the natural world as a good thing, I do believe this is a positive side of the western tradition and its appropriation of Aristotle and Aristotle's interest in empiricism.   Does Orthodoxy have an appreciation for science and reason as goods in themselves? I  know the answer is "yes" in the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

  To go further, some Orthodox in their response to issues like homosexuality have said the scientific evidence doesn't matter to them in determining their knowledge of such terms as "creation", it's all about revelation- Scriptures or Tradition, and there just isn't any way that God would allow somebody to be created gay (to me this is almost gnostic, because it implies a real world hidden behind this one, one that only the privileged few have access to).  The problem I have with that is God is incarnational, wanting to be known.  The idea of natural law does fit with that.   Yes, there are divine mysteries but sometimes some Christians hide behind dismissing natural law as a way to dodge reason and find a foundation beyond authentic, responsible vulnerability, and I don't think Jesus would approve- if anything his whole ministry was about fighting the unreasonableness of the religious leaders of his day, which he disarmed through common sense reasoning.
Quite a leap you have taken there.

So, would God create anyone blind?

The idea of natural law as a "real world hidden behind this one" is indeed somewhat gnostic.

As to the privileged few, Christ did talk of a small flock going through the narrow gate.
Natural Law is not about some "real world hidden behind this one." It's about human beings utilizing their natural human abilities according to their intended purpose. You may not agree with natural law, but seriouly, it's about time you stop misrepresenting it.

it's about time you go up some other river.
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« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2013, 12:43:41 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
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« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2013, 12:52:31 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
somewhere here I linked to paper on the Plato (or at least Neo-Platonism) Aquinas swallowed with his Aristoteleanism.  That he swallowed it without question, just because-he thought-"the Philosopher" said so, damns NL far more than I ever could.

Actually, Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle whenever he felt it necessary to do so. So no, he didn't just "swallow" Aristotle. try again.
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« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2013, 12:53:26 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
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« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2013, 01:00:26 PM »

Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem?

No.
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« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2013, 01:03:40 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Quote
1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense .... To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely. Cicero, Rep. III, 22, 33
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P6U.HTM#3
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« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2013, 01:04:56 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2013, 01:05:58 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
somewhere here I linked to paper on the Plato (or at least Neo-Platonism) Aquinas swallowed with his Aristoteleanism.  That he swallowed it without question, just because-he thought-"the Philosopher" said so, damns NL far more than I ever could.

Actually, Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle whenever he felt it necessary to do so. So no, he didn't just "swallow" Aristotle. try again.
Oh?  And when did he feel such an urge?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2013, 01:43:42 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
somewhere here I linked to paper on the Plato (or at least Neo-Platonism) Aquinas swallowed with his Aristoteleanism.  That he swallowed it without question, just because-he thought-"the Philosopher" said so, damns NL far more than I ever could.

Actually, Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle whenever he felt it necessary to do so. So no, he didn't just "swallow" Aristotle. try again.
Oh?  And when did he feel such an urge?
1. Aristotle believed that there were 55 unmoved movers; Aquinas believed that there is one creator, God.
2. Aristotle thought friendship with God was impossible; Aquinas believed that friendship with God is man's final end.
3. Aristotle thought that there were absolutely no Platonic forms; Aquinas recognized that such plans for creation must exist in the mind of God.
4. Aristotle created a functionalist system of ethics; Aquinas developed a Natural Law theory based on the fact that God has created man in his image.
5. Aquinas did not believe that it is necessary for one to adopt Aristotle's cosmology.
6. Aquinas adopted a theory of participation somewhat influenced by Plato.
7. Aquinas believed that the world was created, and will come to a culmination, while Aristotle believed that the world was an eternal cycle.
8. Aquinas was heavily influenced by the thought of psuedo-Dionysius, which is decidedly not Aristotelian.
etc. etc. etc.
Aquinas did not adopt Aristotle uncritically, but used Aristotle wherever Aquinas believed the philosopher to be a witness to truth.
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« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2013, 01:45:40 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
Sigh, there is a difference between citing someone as an authority on Christian dogma, and citing a person as a common witness to the truth.
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« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2013, 01:46:01 PM »

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
Not yet. And when they do, they say we have no understanding of it.
If they haven't said it yet, how do you know what they say?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2013, 01:47:21 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
Sigh, there is a difference between citing someone as an authority on Christian dogma, and citing a person as a common witness to the truth.
yes, and in its rise Scholasticism dispensed with that difference.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2013, 01:48:56 PM »

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
Not yet. And when they do, they say we have no understanding of it.
If they haven't said it yet, how do you know what they say?
Because I have read parts of the Summa theologiae prior to taking this course Isa. That being said, I am almost done with the course, and as I predicted, we learned that one can never understand the essence of God.
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« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2013, 01:50:10 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
Sigh, there is a difference between citing someone as an authority on Christian dogma, and citing a person as a common witness to the truth.
yes, and in its rise Scholasticism dispensed with that difference.
So says Isa. Actually, Aquinas teaches that faith is superior, and more certain than reason, because faith is based on the revelation which comes form God, who cannot deceive. Isa, stop making stuff up.
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2013, 02:22:09 PM »

I see no problems with quoting Cicero in a Catechism. "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
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« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2013, 02:26:27 PM »

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:28
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« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2013, 02:49:47 PM »

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:28
Citing a pagan authority to pagans is one thing, citing him to Christians on Christian theology is another.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2013, 02:50:27 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
Seems to be the case. I don't mind that he doesn't believe in NL, but I would rather he not continually misrepresent it.
Not my fault that you don't like calling a spade a spade (Cicero, your CCC's authority for NL, didn't like that either). 

I knew that Cicero held to some theory of natural law but does the CCC really cite him?
Not sure, but even if it did why would that be a problem? The Church Fathers cite pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.
That you don't see a problem citing him as an authority for Christian dogma pretty much sums up the problems of "Natural Law."
Sigh, there is a difference between citing someone as an authority on Christian dogma, and citing a person as a common witness to the truth.
yes, and in its rise Scholasticism dispensed with that difference.
So says Isa. Actually, Aquinas teaches that faith is superior, and more certain than reason, because faith is based on the revelation which comes form God, who cannot deceive. Isa, stop making stuff up.
Stop taking lip service for substance.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2013, 02:52:37 PM »

I see no problems with quoting Cicero in a Catechism. "Test all things; hold fast what is good."
That begs the question, was Cicero's Stoic Natural Law good.  Good enough for Christian theology, definitely not, which is why the Fathers had a critical eye towards it (its pantheism and materialism posed a lot of problems, which are exacerbated when ignored).
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2013, 02:55:07 PM »

Have they said that man can see God's essence yet?


So far, in my Natural Theology course we have reviewed the fact that God is utterly transcendent, and beyond being. We cannot know God's essence and the best way to speak of God is by negation, transcendence of limit, and as the cause of our existence. But we cannot know God as he is in himself. Man Scholasticism is evil... or wait, that sounds a lot like the Eastern Orthodox view.
Not yet. And when they do, they say we have no understanding of it.
If they haven't said it yet, how do you know what they say?
Because I have read parts of the Summa theologiae prior to taking this course Isa. 
You didn't claim to say what Aquinas said, you claimed what "they" (the people at "they" U.) will say.

That being said, I am almost done with the course, and as I predicted, we learned that one can never understand the essence of God.
I didn't take the course, and yet I knew that.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2013, 02:55:51 PM »

Isa seems to think about a Platonic system of ethics instead of natural law.
somewhere here I linked to paper on the Plato (or at least Neo-Platonism) Aquinas swallowed with his Aristoteleanism.  That he swallowed it without question, just because-he thought-"the Philosopher" said so, damns NL far more than I ever could.

Actually, Aquinas disagreed with Aristotle whenever he felt it necessary to do so. So no, he didn't just "swallow" Aristotle. try again.
Oh?  And when did he feel such an urge?
1. Aristotle believed that there were 55 unmoved movers; Aquinas believed that there is one creator, God.
2. Aristotle thought friendship with God was impossible; Aquinas believed that friendship with God is man's final end.
3. Aristotle thought that there were absolutely no Platonic forms; Aquinas recognized that such plans for creation must exist in the mind of God.
4. Aristotle created a functionalist system of ethics; Aquinas developed a Natural Law theory based on the fact that God has created man in his image.
5. Aquinas did not believe that it is necessary for one to adopt Aristotle's cosmology.
6. Aquinas adopted a theory of participation somewhat influenced by Plato.
7. Aquinas believed that the world was created, and will come to a culmination, while Aristotle believed that the world was an eternal cycle.
8. Aquinas was heavily influenced by the thought of psuedo-Dionysius, which is decidedly not Aristotelian.
etc. etc. etc.
Aquinas did not adopt Aristotle uncritically, but used Aristotle wherever Aquinas believed the philosopher to be a witness to truth.
I shall have to respond when I have more time.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #89 on: August 03, 2013, 02:58:43 PM »

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:28
Citing a pagan authority to pagans is one thing, citing him to Christians on Christian theology is another.

Fair enough--a difference I didn't take into account.
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