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Author Topic: Coptic Orthodox Pope to meet with Roman Catholic Pope in May  (Read 2128 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 25, 2013, 07:23:27 AM »

Next month, the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church will meet in Rome. Coptic Orthodox Pope Tawadros II will then travel to cities across Europe as well.

From the article:
Quote
Tawadros will visit various Vatican departments and is set to stay in Rome for several days. His arrival is expected for May 10 or 11, Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi told AFP... The visit will be part of a European tour during which Tawadros will visit different Coptic parishes -- his first foreign trip since his election in November at a time in which the Coptic minority is faced with rising Islamism in Egypt.
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 03:09:15 PM »

This man is dangerous.
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 03:16:55 PM »

This man is dangerous.

How so?
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 04:13:40 PM »

This man is dangerous.
The Pope of Alexandria or Rome?
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 04:14:08 PM »

neither of them is dangerous.

our leaders are working hard at discussing the correct doctrine and faith with other groups, in order to truly worship God together with those who will also share the orthodox faith in the future.
we should pray for their meeting and all the other meetings pope tawadros will have on his journey.
may God give him wisdom and love, and also guide pope francis as he leads a very big and challenging church.
 Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2013, 05:38:18 PM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2013, 05:40:47 PM »

since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.

How sure are you of that statement?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 05:40:52 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2013, 05:43:31 PM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.

Untrue, as many suffered a brutal death here in England, as but one example. Even today there are old homes with 'priests' holes' where they hid in the hope of escaping capture and a dreadful death.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2013, 05:45:34 PM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.


Untrue, as many suffered a brutal death here in England, as but one example. Even today there are old homes with 'priests' holes' where they hid in the hope of escaping capture and a dreadful death. 40 alone in England and Wales.
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2013, 05:45:41 PM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.

Do you like to read at all?  Huh
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2013, 06:13:23 PM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.

Before you decide to post on a topic try researching it a bit, you'll look less foolish.
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2013, 07:25:49 PM »

Where's the "spy vs spy" meme (with mitres) that reads "Pope vs Pope"?
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2013, 09:02:16 PM »

I can't think of any Christian church/group/sect that hasn't suffered some sort of persecution, somewhere, sometime. (Unfortunately and too often at the hands of other Christians.)
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 03:14:15 AM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.
If  RC Church never endured any persecution, how come 4184 Catholic priests, 2365 Catholic monks, 282 Catholic nuns, and 13 Catholic bishops were killed during the Spanish civil war?
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 04:33:33 AM »

To say nought of the persecution by the Soviets, the Chinese Boxers, the Japanese to name but a few more. Ecumenism and the involvement of various Churches or sects in it is one thing. But, writing as a long standing critic of the Papacy, I can see no evidence of this and persecution or lack thereof to any one organisation's participation in it.

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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 09:56:54 AM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.

Interestingly enough, I've known a number of Catholics who speak as though no one else has been persecuted like Catholics have been persecuted.

Maybe you could get together with them and figure it all out for us. Wink
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 05:19:48 PM »

back to main topic!
 Tongue
some nice photos:
http://news.yahoo.com/three-popes-vatican-egypts-coptic-leader-visits-francis-145723100.html
(thanks to reuters)
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 09:04:37 AM »

Good pictures. Looks like a simple, positive visit, which is all I think they were aiming for.  Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 10:20:14 AM »

Roman Catholic ecumenists always bother me because it's so easy for them to be ecumenical and have no hard-feelings since they never endured persecution such as the Orthodox or even early Protestants.

Interestingly enough, I've known a number of Catholics who speak as though no one else has been persecuted like Catholics have been persecuted.

Maybe you could get together with them and figure it all out for us. Wink

+1. Make sure you invite a few Ukrainian, Slovak and Romanian Greek Catholics to the party. While you are at it include Orthodox from these countries, and the former USSR.
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 12:41:14 PM »

I'm surprised not too many people are talking about this:

We are glad to be able to confirm today what our illustrious predecessors solemnly declared, we are glad to recognize that we are united by one Baptism, of which our common prayer is a special expression, and we long for the day when, in fulfilment of the Lord's desire, we will be able to communicate from the one chalice.

What does this mean for the Coptic Church?  Will we stop baptizing Catholics into the Coptic Church?
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 02:04:43 PM »

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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 02:11:01 PM »

Perhaps what he meant is something about his charisma already making many people fall in love with him, possibly in submission to him, which may make him a very powerful figure too.

I admire his past and his humility, and I can see why his charisma may scare some people to thinking he's dangerous, but I don't think he's dangerous in any sense of making us lose sight of our faith.  Perhaps, I'm missing something in the comment made about him.
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 02:49:13 PM »


I'm curious too. Does Stavro think Pope Francis is dangerous? Pope Tawadros? His comment intrigues me.
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 04:17:48 PM »

from left to right:
HG Bishop Angelos, general bishop of the UK
Roman Catholic cardinal of whose name I do not know
HG Bishop Serapion of California and Hawaii
HG Bishop Epiphanious of St. Macarius' Monastery
HG Bishop Bernaba of Torino
HH Pope Tawadros II
HG Bishop Kyrillos of Milano
HH Pope Francis I
Fr. Seraphim el Souriani
HE Metropolitan Bakhomious of el-Beheira
HG Bishop Athanasius, general bishop of the French Orthodox Church
HE Metropolitan Hedra of Aswan
HG Bishop Raphael, general bishop of central Cairo and head secretary of the Holy Synod
Fr. Angelos Ishak


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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 07:16:35 PM »


I'm curious too. Does Stavro think Pope Francis is dangerous? Pope Tawadros? His comment intrigues me.

All us Romans are dangerous - but perhaps only to those whose faith isn't as strong as it should be.   Wink Cool
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2013, 10:23:41 PM »

I'm surprised not too many people are talking about this:

We are glad to be able to confirm today what our illustrious predecessors solemnly declared, we are glad to recognize that we are united by one Baptism, of which our common prayer is a special expression, and we long for the day when, in fulfilment of the Lord's desire, we will be able to communicate from the one chalice.

What does this mean for the Coptic Church?  Will we stop baptizing Catholics into the Coptic Church?

I don't really see why it's an issue, given that it was the Catholic Pope who said it, not the Orthodox Pope.
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2013, 10:28:34 PM »

It was an agreed statement between HH Pope Shenouda and HH Pope Paul, but you could say we didn't follow through with it. Some of the reasons include we don't accept sprinkle baptism, we're not one in faith, and we don't like churches that make Christological agreements with Nestorians. :-P

I think the last one is what really ticked off HH Pope Shenouda to make him reneg on the agreement of one baptism.
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2013, 10:35:14 PM »

On behalf of the Coptic Orthodox Church, The Holy Synod and all the Copts of Egypt worldwide, I would like to congratulate Your Holiness on Your divine appointment as Pope and Bishop of Rome. It is one of the highest offices in the Christian community, but also of immense relevance worldwide, particularly in the current historical phase when inter-religious dialogue has become so important.

Being guided by the Holy Spirit, I deliberately wanted this visit to coincide with my congratulations to Your Holiness, in the 40th anniversary of the visit by His Holiness, the Late Pope Shenouda III, the so-called Pope of the Arabs and the Pioneer of the Enlightenment Movement in the Coptic Orthodox Church, to Pope Paul VI, from the 4th until the 10th of May 1973 (the day when the two Popes signed the Joint Statement), in the Vatican City, the first visit ever paid by the Pope and Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church in Alexandria to the Vatican. In this year I was still studying at the Faculty of Pharmacy at Alexandria University in Egypt. It may be worth noting that, as a response to that visit, His Holiness Pope John Paul II visited Egypt in 2000.

Thus, this is an unforgettable occasion for me, both for its great inherent importance and for its marking the anniversary of the historical and most significant event by Pope Shenouda III. May this visit of love and brotherhood be the first of a long series between our two great Churches. Therefore I propose that the 10th of May of each year should be considered as a celebration of brotherly love between the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church.

...

Everyone here praises the love, the fruitful cooperation and the great support of the Catholic Church to the Egyptian Church founded in your beautiful Country. Both Churches, the Catholic and the Coptic, have always worked together, in the Middle East and in the Western World, to make peace prevail. The most important aim for both is the promotion of ecumenical dialogue in order to get to the most pursued goal, unity. Therefore and for the first time ever, I insisted to participate personally in the Enthronement Ceremony of the Patriarch of Catholic Church in Egypt, Patriarch Ibrahim Isaac. Last February, we also formed the Council of Churches in Egypt with the participation of all Egyptian Churches, as an expression of solidarity and love between brothers.

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« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2013, 06:10:09 AM »

the british orthodox metropolitan is going soon to italy; watch britishorthodox.org for more details.
(i don't think he is meeting pope francis, but he will meet pope tawadros and he usually writes comments for the website after this).
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2013, 01:42:16 PM »

It was an agreed statement between HH Pope Shenouda and HH Pope Paul, but you could say we didn't follow through with it. Some of the reasons include we don't accept sprinkle baptism, we're not one in faith, and we don't like churches that make Christological agreements with Nestorians. :-P

I think the last one is what really ticked off HH Pope Shenouda to make him reneg on the agreement of one baptism.

Was confession of one baptism in the agreed statements? Interesting.

If Pope Shenouda did not like the ecumenical activities of the Catholics, he should have openly rescinded the agreed statements instead if continuing to nominally adhere to it when he renounced his own agreements.

The business with the Assyrian church had nothing to do with dogma. Our hierarchs do not care about sound dogma. It was personal between Anba Bishoy and his counterpart in the business negotiations. The position of the Assyrian church is one and the same as the Chalcedonian churches. Only a hypocrite would accept unity with the Chalcedonians and reject unity with the Assyrians.
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2013, 02:09:37 PM »

Honestly, I don't mind the idea of not baptizing Catholics.  For centuries, we always accepted Chalcedonians by just a statement of faith.  No baptism, no chrismation even.  It wasn't until the mid-1800s where perhaps our theology seemed to have taken a Western-Latin form from the French Catholics and Protestants, rather than from patristics and history.  Nevertheless, there's still disagreements.

I would say also many Catholic beliefs seem to be blown way out of proportion.  The most important Catholic belief that needs to be discussed is their ecclesiological dogma of Petrine Papism.  All else are of secondary importance really.  We need to spend a good amount of time and dialogue on this issue first and foremost.  I believe all other issues can be resolved quickly and easily, given the history of Oriental Orthodox diversity in these issues and possible semantics playing along with them.
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2013, 03:39:59 PM »


I'm curious too. Does Stavro think Pope Francis is dangerous? Pope Tawadros? His comment intrigues me.

I was referring to Pope Taw.

Since his adapted father pimped him into Papacy with a rigged lottery, he has taken one outrageous ecumenical step after another. He is a excellent businessman though. I like this aspect about him.
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2013, 06:07:03 PM »

It's okay, just do what you always do and simply ignore the outrageous affirmations of an apostate church by your hierarchs.

BTW, by "you" I mean Chalcedonians as well, who are just as bad.
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« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2013, 10:21:50 AM »

It was an agreed statement between HH Pope Shenouda and HH Pope Paul, but you could say we didn't follow through with it. Some of the reasons include we don't accept sprinkle baptism, we're not one in faith, and we don't like churches that make Christological agreements with Nestorians. :-P

I think the last one is what really ticked off HH Pope Shenouda to make him reneg on the agreement of one baptism.

Was confession of one baptism in the agreed statements? Interesting.

If Pope Shenouda did not like the ecumenical activities of the Catholics, he should have openly rescinded the agreed statements instead if continuing to nominally adhere to it when he renounced his own agreements.

The business with the Assyrian church had nothing to do with dogma. Our hierarchs do not care about sound dogma. It was personal between Anba Bishoy and his counterpart in the business negotiations.

You're the first one to mention that matter on this thread right? (Not that there's anything wrong with that; I only ask because your wording makes it sound like someone had been talking about it previously.)
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« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2013, 10:22:51 AM »

It was an agreed statement between HH Pope Shenouda and HH Pope Paul, but you could say we didn't follow through with it. Some of the reasons include we don't accept sprinkle baptism, we're not one in faith, and we don't like churches that make Christological agreements with Nestorians. :-P

I think the last one is what really ticked off HH Pope Shenouda to make him reneg on the agreement of one baptism.

That makes sense.

I often get the impression, reading between the lines, that Catholic involvement in ecumenism would be 'fine' if it were limited to being ecumenical toward the Orthodox and no one else.

But of course, I would assume that being ecumenical towards the ACoE is an offense in a league its own, from the OO pov.
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« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2013, 11:20:05 AM »

Well it offends me, and I don't have any business deals going with the ACoE.

On the general topic and Stavro's comments: The Roman Catholics want to be everything to everybody, and I'm sorry, but it's just not going to work. I would be much happier if we never signed another agreed statement with them, and immediately repudiated those that have already been signed. I don't mean to sound like an extremist or anything...I just find it weird and troubling how, for instance, people can talk about the Tome of Leo being heretical in one breath, and then sign some silly statement with the same church that produced that Tome in the next. Not saying we shouldn't be friendly (I don't see any harm in remaining cordial), but I don't like this idea that I keep reading about how we should celebrate something together on May 10th. Why? I don't understand what the point is. Celebrating "brotherly love"? I don't like feasts dedicated to abstract concepts. Whatever happened to HH Pope Shenouda's contention that things should not be done for surface reasons? I like HH Pope Tawadros just fine, but I don't particularly like what I've heard of this meeting. If we're going to have closer ties with anyone outside of the communion, they should be based on the non-Orthodox making doctrinal changes that move them closer to Orthodoxy, right? Not simply declaring that we already have so much in common, so as to make them feel better about their own churches (and, of course, causing a lot of Orthodox people to leave their faith and accept Roman heresies).

I do not like this kind of ecumenism. Visit the Romans all you want, exchange gifts and hug or whatever, but don't go on and on about "our two great churches", all our commonalities, etc. We already know what we have in common. Many of the Romans would like to think that this makes us "two lungs" or some such...no. Just no.

And if I had to get (re)baptized [and I did], so should they. The Catholic theology surrounding baptism (this "indelible mark" business, whereby somehow I'm still RC...) is different than the Orthodox, to say nothing of the very obvious difference in form as well. It ought not be accepted just because of historical precedents wherein we accepted Chalcedonians by confession of faith alone. The Chalcedonians of today (particularly the Latins) are not the same as those of yesteryear, in either faith or practice. Rebaptize all of them, even from their Eastern churches.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 11:20:50 AM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2013, 12:44:18 PM »

Rebaptize all of them, even from their Eastern churches.

Do you mean Byzantine Catholics or also EO?
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« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2013, 12:48:12 PM »

I meant Eastern Catholics. I am told that the Copts already accept EO via profession of faith without rebaptism...
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« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2013, 01:58:54 PM »

I guess Pope Tawadros will come to the Netherlands. Pope Shenouda III visited once.
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« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2013, 06:40:54 PM »

It's okay, just do what you always do and simply ignore the outrageous affirmations of an apostate church by your hierarchs.

BTW, by "you" I mean Chalcedonians as well, who are just as bad.

I think you have the luxury to say whatever you want in our face, being a ROCOR, even if just by heart. The ROCOR has maintained an admirable position against ecumenism.

What would you have us do? Excommunicate our hierarchs? 

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« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 07:48:11 PM »

Stavro,

I want to say I have a huge respect for your position.  And while we have disagreements, I want to let you know that you do have good points, of which I stand at a personal "agnosticism" of the positions the Church takes.  Nevertheless, I don't think it's necessary to think that the alter lot was rigged.  I think we should just leave it at that, and we should thank His Eminence for at least handling it the best he could.

Let us pray that our Lord guide our Church for the better, even if today's bishops and priests are performing in uncanonical ways.
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« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2013, 07:56:16 PM »

It's okay, just do what you always do and simply ignore the outrageous affirmations of an apostate church by your hierarchs.

BTW, by "you" I mean Chalcedonians as well, who are just as bad.

I think you have the luxury to say whatever you want in our face, being a ROCOR, even if just by heart. The ROCOR has maintained an admirable position against ecumenism.

What would you have us do? Excommunicate our hierarchs? 



I'm no ROCOR, just a hyperdox catechumen who admires them in areas like this one.

I don't know what to do. Stop electing these people, for one. Excommunication might be too far. But what do you do when the day comes when the Coptic pope or the Ecumenical patriarch go beyond the vapid talk and actually make an intercomunnion agreement or a concelebration?
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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2013, 12:13:28 PM »

Well it offends me, and I don't have any business deals going with the ACoE.

On the general topic and Stavro's comments: The Roman Catholics want to be everything to everybody, and I'm sorry, but it's just not going to work. I would be much happier if we never signed another agreed statement with them, and immediately repudiated those that have already been signed. I don't mean to sound like an extremist or anything...I just find it weird and troubling how, for instance, people can talk about the Tome of Leo being heretical in one breath, and then sign some silly statement with the same church that produced that Tome in the next. Not saying we shouldn't be friendly (I don't see any harm in remaining cordial), but I don't like this idea that I keep reading about how we should celebrate something together on May 10th. Why? I don't understand what the point is. Celebrating "brotherly love"? I don't like feasts dedicated to abstract concepts. Whatever happened to HH Pope Shenouda's contention that things should not be done for surface reasons? I like HH Pope Tawadros just fine, but I don't particularly like what I've heard of this meeting. If we're going to have closer ties with anyone outside of the communion, they should be based on the non-Orthodox making doctrinal changes that move them closer to Orthodoxy, right?

Or non-Catholics making doctrinal changes that move them closer to Catholicism.
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« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2013, 01:34:11 PM »

It's okay, just do what you always do and simply ignore the outrageous affirmations of an apostate church by your hierarchs.

BTW, by "you" I mean Chalcedonians as well, who are just as bad.

I think you have the luxury to say whatever you want in our face, being a ROCOR, even if just by heart. The ROCOR has maintained an admirable position against ecumenism.

What would you have us do? Excommunicate our hierarchs? 



I'm no ROCOR, just a hyperdox catechumen who admires them in areas like this one.

I don't know what to do. Stop electing these people, for one. Excommunication might be too far. But what do you do when the day comes when the Coptic pope or the Ecumenical patriarch go beyond the vapid talk and actually make an intercomunnion agreement or a concelebration?
If such a thing happens (God forbid!), then people like Stavro and I will have no part in it.
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« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2013, 06:22:35 PM »

But what do you do when the day comes when the Coptic pope or the Ecumenical patriarch go beyond the vapid talk and actually make an intercomunnion agreement or a concelebration?

What day will that be? (Things tend to slip my mind if I don't write them in my day-planner.)
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