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Author Topic: What Attracts Westerners to Islam?  (Read 9512 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 24, 2013, 01:41:07 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2013, 03:18:20 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.

That's a question probably better answered by western converts to Islam, don't you think?
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 03:21:37 PM »

I'm not a convert to Islam, but from my vantage point there are many attractive aspects to Muslim culture- the poetry, art, music, and also a lot of the people. I've come across a lot of Muslims, a lot of them very sincere, who are very friendly to outsiders and make you wish you could be part of that. So even if you're flipping through the Koran and thinking, "This is really not that cool" you are tempted to re-read it through the lens of that experience.
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 05:01:05 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.
What is the draw for some Westerners for fascism?  Some people like that world view of regimented control.
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 05:05:12 PM »


I think that is it.  A strict regimen.  Praying 5 times a day, fasting, etc.  .....wait....doesn't Orthodoxy offer even better?

Why is it that people discount Christianity and pull for Islam when looking for a tight ship?

Is it that they are jaded by all the TV Evangelists, Mormons, scandals, etc....and therefore, simply discount Christianity?

Might it be that they don't crave the "peace" prescribed by Christ....but, prefer the radicial, angry, get even "peace" of Islam.

I think it's a fad.  They are looking for something new and different.
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 05:13:44 PM »

I know a gal who converted to Islam several years ago.  It began as a rejection of Protestantism and their contradictory teachings and diarrhea of the mouth.  It appeared to me that she is following a very westernized, watered down version of the religion and, even then, picking and choosing the portions of the faith to which she adheres (diet and alcohol, for example).  I saw the irony in that, but left well-enough alone.  At that point, I had questioned her enough and it was time for a break.
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 05:49:23 PM »

It's possible that some Christians are weak or uninformed in the faith, and when they hear a Muslim spinning the old claims about the Christian faith, they fall for it. Very sad to see. I've only met a few Muslims, and while I thought they were pretty normal people, I didn't have the leaning to get interested in their faith. I tried to keep reading about the Christian faith, and that acted as a buffer against other temptations. I'm far from perfect. I have had many falls and problems. Still, although I have read the Koran a few times, and a little of the hadith, I don't think the grass is greener over there.
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 06:10:01 PM »

Most converts to Islam in Europe are because of love for a Muslim partner. Probably the same in the U, S and A?
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 06:18:38 PM »

Most converts to Islam in Europe are because of love for a Muslim partner. Probably the same in the U, S and A?
No, not in the U,S of A.

Most, if not all, have an idealized image of what Islam is.  They are disenchanted with Christiandom-as opposed to the Church-and think, as biro put it, the grass is greener. Some are a rebellious spirit, in the embrace of "the other."
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 06:29:42 PM »

Or some, by relying on its own vision (often incorrect, of what he saw, what he heard, instead of informing itself directly to the source) of Christianity.
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 06:53:21 PM »

Probably because most of what passes down as watered-down "christianity" today does not fulfill spiritually lacking people, especiallythe young folk, looking for some meaning in thier lives in a morally debauched world.

I couldn''t be a christian by much of today's standards knowing what I do know today.

I barely hold on to the faith now.



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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 07:22:20 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.

You would do well to learn a bit more about Islam. I have my theories before I cared about such things and after.

While I doubt you meant for your post to be very expansive, it does bely more than a bit of a misunderstanding of some basics facts about Islam, its theology, especially its methods of hermeneutics.

What English translation do you have of the Koran? As to the hadith. There are hadith, then there are hadith, then there are hadith, and there are no hadith.

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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 07:23:58 PM »

Most converts to Islam in Europe are because of love for a Muslim partner. Probably the same in the U, S and A?
No, not in the U,S of A.

Most, if not all, have an idealized image of what Islam is.  They are disenchanted with Christiandom-as opposed to the Church-and think, as biro put it, the grass is greener. Some are a rebellious spirit, in the embrace of "the other."

Isa in the spirit of honest disclosure, have you looked at the demographics of the converts in the US versus let's say the UK? There are interesting differences and depending one's experience more than a few surprises.

One this is clear, few folks are reverting as it were, at least here.
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 07:32:14 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.
What is the draw for some Westerners for fascism?  Some people like that world view of regimented control.

Sounds like the would be monarchist EO around here.

Strange how some of the most agreed upon "authentic" hadith and other extra-Koranic literature stress the dangers of too heavily spelling out and writing too much in stone.

I would imagine you have at least read the Koran and perhaps more than the typically trotted out extra-Koranic literature which only the power hungry Muslims find to be authentic.

It would seem much of the Koranic critique of Judaism certainly and Christianity to a lesser degree has to do with the heaping up of rules and statues secular and otherwise if such a difference could be made back then.

I am no scholar or even expert or even reasonably studied, so I can't cite verse to verse with you. I've just read the Koran in more than a few translations with varying commentary and lived with more than a few Muslims and had a fairly close relationship with Muslim "extremist" I think they are calling such people now. He seemed to believe the democracy of the West was more more in line with Shariah than the rather moderate country he left, Morocco.

Even with my little reading and experience, I think conflating all expressions of Islam, especially allowing those who seem most removed from the religion's center to occupy that center is to give those particular expressions of Islam exactly what they want.

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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 07:41:55 PM »

Might it be that they don't crave the "peace" prescribed by Christ....but, prefer the radicial, angry, get even "peace" of Islam.

Christ came to bring sword.

Really Liza the above is unfair, unless you are saying many are drawn to this particular expression of Islam, which isn't my experience. And I lived in the second largest Turkish city for more than a little while. Even when we dropping bombs all over Iraq. I drank. Ate pork. And got long quite nicely with nearly every Turk.

Then I was around some Iraqis. Odd starts, but humor and contrition for your country's sins go a long way to making good friends abroad.

Then there were the Bosnians.

The Iranians.

Really, I never saw what I saw on the TV. All the converts I know here in the States are black folks, especially women. And it seems clear why they "revert". And being in the oft most dangerous neighborhood in America, I wish all the black folks around me would convert. I've yet to see the Muslims gang-banger, dope boy, thug, etc. Courtesy abounds.

And how many times you pray or whatever is hardly any virtue. I don't think it is a contest.

I would like Essence to come back or if someone around here is an Islamic expert in their philosophy, cause I have some questions about some Islamic notions of causation and how much they've been looked in comparison to Leibniz's Monodalogy in the Islamic world.

That is about all the blather I have left in me.

I apologize for the disjunctions.

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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 08:05:45 PM »

silent, submissive women.

The same reason many men seek Asian wives...
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2013, 08:29:13 PM »

If people really want a strict regimen and submissive wives, why not convert to Judaism?
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2013, 08:42:36 PM »

I can't really answer until this gets moved to politics.

EDIT: Ahh screw it, I'll say it anyway. The reason is because let's face it, the religious right in America is very xenophobic of Islam and many of these western converts to Islam are young progressives with a rebellious spirit who want to "join the other side" by joining the religion that all the senile old folks are afraid of. Kinda like a girl dating the bad-boy, etc.
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2013, 09:06:43 PM »

If people really want a strict regimen and submissive wives, why not convert to Judaism?

Mandatory circumcision. Even if you're already circumcised, you still have to get ritually poked in the pee-pee by a mohel.
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2013, 09:10:04 PM »

If people really want a strict regimen and submissive wives, why not convert to Judaism?

Mandatory circumcision. Even if you're already circumcised, you still have to get ritually poked in the pee-pee by a mohel.

I thought it was the same in Islam, only difference is that women also have to do it.
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2013, 09:30:24 PM »

If people really want a strict regimen and submissive wives, why not convert to Judaism?

Mandatory circumcision. Even if you're already circumcised, you still have to get ritually poked in the pee-pee by a mohel.

I thought it was the same in Islam, only difference is that women also have to do it.

No this is a lie!
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2013, 09:38:06 PM »

If people really want a strict regimen and submissive wives, why not convert to Judaism?

Mandatory circumcision. Even if you're already circumcised, you still have to get ritually poked in the pee-pee by a mohel.

I thought it was the same in Islam, only difference is that women also have to do it.

No this is a lie!
That definitely explains why 97% of women in Egypt have had a circumcision.


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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »


That definitely explains why 97% of women in Egypt have had a circumcision.




What does it have to do with islam?

If you want to get really technical

go compare the number of child sacri.. sorry I mean "abortion in the 3rd trimester" in a western nation (predominantly christian)

to the number in an Islamic nation


here's an article where a scholar is encouraging the idea of carry it out after birth as well as an alternative to adoption

http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2013, 10:14:29 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.

Some converts grew up in families (most often single-parent families) and saw the consequences of over indulgence in alcohol, gambling, drug-use, adultery/lust...etc.

The religion's strict stance on these issues and others is what drew them to the religion.


Secondly, you mentioned you read an English translation of the Koran?
Be honest, did you really read the text, or just skim through it?  Did you visualize the words as you were reading each verse?

If I can recommend a surah for you, check out this one

http://quran.com/36
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2013, 11:11:17 PM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2013, 11:23:53 PM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.

Idk. Same reason they get attracted to a religion that hates homosexuals, destroyed pagan temples, oppressed non-Chalcedonians and that was the biggest supporter of Serfdom in Russia...
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 12:12:39 AM »

I'm starting to really appreciate orthonorm's presence on this forum...
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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 12:47:32 AM »

In response to the OP... some may be attracted, intellectually, to the relative theological conservatism of Islam in comparison to the radical and challenging Christian concept of transcendent God becoming man. That would be my own, biased guess.
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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 01:18:22 AM »

In response to the OP... some may be attracted, intellectually, to the relative theological conservatism of Islam in comparison to the radical and challenging Christian concept of transcendent God becoming man. That would be my own, biased guess.

Bull. From a Scholastic standpoint, I find the notion of an impersonal God who never became man to be harder to believe in. The reason being that due to God allegedly becoming man, we at least have a starting point--something to go from. We can try to look at the historical evidence and examine Jesus' acts for ourselves to see if He is really God or not. On the other hand, in a religion with a distant God like Islam, you can't do that. God is distant. Unless God becomes a part of the created world, then He is irrelevant to us as our minds are only capable of understanding that which can be empirically observed.
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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 01:29:38 AM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.

I can answer this from personal experience - as I was drawn to Islam.

I had been a Catholic. I felt that Catholicism was too far removed from the church at the time of Christ. A great many 'innovations' in the church made me feel dissatisfied with it.

I looked for 'the original church' - initially I was gravitating towards a church that was very close to Judaism; but with Christ as saviour

One night I saw a film called "Mohammed, Messenger of God " (aka "The Message")
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

The way Islam was portrayed in that seemed to me to be very close to the church I had been seeking. It seemed a 'church' without the cardinals and pope; with a very simple message about serving God.

I then struck out on a path towards Islam.

I even joined SUMSA (Sydney University Muslim Students Association) to get in touch with Moslems.



God drew me away from it. It seemed illogical to me to have a 'prophet' who was out of a line of prophets that we have. That is, God sent a line of prophets, such as Moses, etc. and it would seem that he gave up on them, and started sending a prophet to a totally different people; the Arabs.

Furthermore the more detail I got from Islam seemed to be a message very un-like Christ.

I was lost until I found Orthodoxy... which is the church I'd been looking for.
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« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 01:30:35 AM »

In response to the OP... some may be attracted, intellectually, to the relative theological conservatism of Islam in comparison to the radical and challenging Christian concept of transcendent God becoming man. That would be my own, biased guess.

Bull. From a Scholastic standpoint, I find the notion of an impersonal God who never became man to be harder to believe in. The reason being that due to God allegedly becoming man, we at least have a starting point--something to go from. We can try to look at the historical evidence and examine Jesus' acts for ourselves to see if He is really God or not. On the other hand, in a religion with a distant God like Islam, you can't do that. God is distant. Unless God becomes a part of the created world, then He is irrelevant to us as our minds are only capable of understanding that which can be empirically observed.

I found that difficult too. If God were so beyond imagining then how could he interact with us? The fact God makes himself known to us is a wonderful idea.

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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 01:41:26 AM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.

Idk. Same reason they get attracted to a religion that hates homosexuals, destroyed pagan temples, oppressed non-Chalcedonians and that was the biggest supporter of Serfdom in Russia...

One of the tools of Satan is confusion.

I have several atheist and/or homosexual friends who defend Islam, but they put down Christianity.

The 'left' in this country (and in the UK and, Europe) generally is anti-Israel, and pro-Palestinian

Islam avoids the spotlight of serious scrutiny in many ways. People who wish to seriously discuss this are seen as western imperialists picking on a weak foe, or are terrorised into not criticising Islam. With no real scrutiny (and only anti-Christian diatribe allowed) people continue to be mislead about Islam.

Also the left has taken control of language. I don't know how it is where you are, but Moslem terrorists are called "Islamisist terrorists" rather than Moslem terrorists.

Moslems who kill themselves are called "suicide-bombers" rather than "martyrdom-bombers" and than Moslems can argue that Islam is against suicide, therefore these bombers carrying out Islamic terror are not following Islam!

Moslems are also permitted to lie, in order to spread Islam.

Some years ago a local Sydney paper (the Telegraph) had an on-line blog with a Moslem apologist Keysar Trad. I caught him lying. I was talking about the discrimination Islam imposes upon non-Moslems. He said that non-Moslems (Dhimmi) don't have to pay the Zakat (a tax). That was a lie by concealment, because he failed to mention that Dhimmi have to pay a different take the Jizya.

I pointed out this; that his answer was not the whole truth.

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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2013, 01:43:37 AM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2013, 01:48:40 AM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.

Idk. Same reason they get attracted to a religion that hates homosexuals, destroyed pagan temples, oppressed non-Chalcedonians and that was the biggest supporter of Serfdom in Russia...

One of the tools of Satan is confusion.

I have several atheist and/or homosexual friends who defend Islam, but they put down Christianity.

The 'left' in this country (and in the UK and, Europe) generally is anti-Israel, and pro-Palestinian

Islam avoids the spotlight of serious scrutiny in many ways. People who wish to seriously discuss this are seen as western imperialists picking on a weak foe, or are terrorised into not criticising Islam. With no real scrutiny (and only anti-Christian diatribe allowed) people continue to be mislead about Islam.

Also the left has taken control of language. I don't know how it is where you are, but Moslem terrorists are called "Islamisist terrorists" rather than Moslem terrorists.

Moslems who kill themselves are called "suicide-bombers" rather than "martyrdom-bombers" and than Moslems can argue that Islam is against suicide, therefore these bombers carrying out Islamic terror are not following Islam!

Moslems are also permitted to lie, in order to spread Islam.

Some years ago a local Sydney paper (the Telegraph) had an on-line blog with a Moslem apologist Keysar Trad. I caught him lying. I was talking about the discrimination Islam imposes upon non-Moslems. He said that non-Moslems (Dhimmi) don't have to pay the Zakat (a tax). That was a lie by concealment, because he failed to mention that Dhimmi have to pay a different take the Jizya.

I pointed out this; that his answer was not the whole truth.



I agree. Once again, I restate my original thought that I think the reason many westerners convert to Islam now is precisely because it carries the rebellious "bad-boy" affect. Most of these westerners who convert to Islam are liberals who are very anti-conservative. And let's face it; most conservatives in America are very xenophobic of Islam. Therefore, offending Islam has become the new liberal "educated" man taboo because it automatically equates you with those not-too-bright conservatives that they hate. Thus, Islam gains a sense of prestige and people join it as a way of protest against conservatism. Hence like a young girl dating the "bad boy" in order to rebel against her parents that she hates. Liberals convert to Islam for the same reason in many instances--as much as they may hate to admit it.
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2013, 01:51:18 AM »

From a Scholastic standpoint,

You so love that word!  laugh You must know where it comes from, don't you?

On the other hand, in a religion with a distant God like Islam, you can't do that. God is distant. Unless God becomes a part of the created world, then He is irrelevant to us as our minds are only capable of understanding that which can be empirically observed.

But Allah sent down the Qu'ran. In "plain Arabic".  
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2013, 01:58:02 AM »

Might it be that they don't crave the "peace" prescribed by Christ....but, prefer the radicial, angry, get even "peace" of Islam.

Christ came to bring sword.

Really Liza the above is unfair, unless you are saying many are drawn to this particular expression of Islam, which isn't my experience. And I lived in the second largest Turkish city for more than a little while. Even when we dropping bombs all over Iraq. I drank. Ate pork. And got long quite nicely with nearly every Turk.

Then I was around some Iraqis. Odd starts, but humor and contrition for your country's sins go a long way to making good friends abroad.

Then there were the Bosnians.

The Iranians.

Really, I never saw what I saw on the TV. All the converts I know here in the States are black folks, especially women. And it seems clear why they "revert". And being in the oft most dangerous neighborhood in America, I wish all the black folks around me would convert. I've yet to see the Muslims gang-banger, dope boy, thug, etc. Courtesy abounds.

And how many times you pray or whatever is hardly any virtue. I don't think it is a contest.

I would like Essence to come back or if someone around here is an Islamic expert in their philosophy, cause I have some questions about some Islamic notions of causation and how much they've been looked in comparison to Leibniz's Monodalogy in the Islamic world.

That is about all the blather I have left in me.

I apologize for the disjunctions.



I'll buy your memoirs.
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2013, 02:00:24 AM »

I can't really answer until this gets moved to politics.

EDIT: Ahh screw it, I'll say it anyway. The reason is because let's face it, the religious right in America is very xenophobic of Islam and many of these western converts to Islam are young progressives with a rebellious spirit who want to "join the other side" by joining the religion that all the senile old folks are afraid of. Kinda like a girl dating the bad-boy, etc.

This seems absurd, but I actually knew a guy like this. He was the "share everything from the Being Liberal page" type, I had to mute him eventually because it got really old. Not sure if he's still Muslim though because he posted on FB that he's very skeptical of any religious text that condemns homosexuality.
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 02:01:20 AM »

I have several atheist and/or homosexual friends who defend Islam, but they put down Christianity.

The 'left' in this country (and in the UK and, Europe) generally is anti-Israel, and pro-Palestinian

Islam avoids the spotlight of serious scrutiny in many ways. People who wish to seriously discuss this are seen as western imperialists picking on a weak foe, or are terrorised into not criticising Islam. With no real scrutiny (and only anti-Christian diatribe allowed) people continue to be mislead about Islam.

Also the left has taken control of language. I don't know how it is where you are, but Moslem terrorists are called "Islamisist terrorists" rather than Moslem terrorists.

Moslems who kill themselves are called "suicide-bombers" rather than "martyrdom-bombers" and than Moslems can argue that Islam is against suicide, therefore these bombers carrying out Islamic terror are not following Islam!

Moslems are also permitted to lie, in order to spread Islam.

Some years ago a local Sydney paper (the Telegraph) had an on-line blog with a Moslem apologist Keysar Trad. I caught him lying. I was talking about the discrimination Islam imposes upon non-Moslems. He said that non-Moslems (Dhimmi) don't have to pay the Zakat (a tax). That was a lie by concealment, because he failed to mention that Dhimmi have to pay a different take the Jizya.

I pointed out this; that his answer was not the whole truth.



Almost nothing makes sense in this post.
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 02:03:06 AM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.

Idk. Same reason they get attracted to a religion that hates homosexuals, destroyed pagan temples, oppressed non-Chalcedonians and that was the biggest supporter of Serfdom in Russia...

Well you got one out of four right. That's progress I guess.
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2013, 02:56:54 AM »

That is, God sent a line of prophets, such as Moses, etc. and it would seem that he gave up on them, and started sending a prophet to a totally different people; the Arabs.

There are some very logical reason why He sent the Quran through an arabic prophet (through the linage of Ismail) rather than one through prophet Issac's linage.

I'm sure you know the fact that as a test, the Creator brought the Messiah to the Jews who was in their linage, but didn't have a father, and they rejected him, claiming that Mary committed fornication-- despite the Messiah uttering truthful information.

In the same manner, the Creator sent them another prophet from linage of prophet Ismail, who wasn't wealthy like them, but uttered truthful information.  Some accepted his message, but quite a few didn't for the very same reason you've suggest.  This was all a test, to see if the Jews (the shallow ones) would stop focusing on the exterior (ie. raving about the claim of being the chosen people) and instead focus on the interior (ie. that all people of good morals/faith are equally blessed by the Creator-- no race is superior to any other race).
 
Another reason as to why the Quran was sent through an Arabic prophet, is because their is a very mystical/mysterious feature behind the Arabic language, just like there is with the Hebrew language.

In the Torah, you will see that some of the letters have crowns on them, and there is a quite a mystery about it.  Some Jews believe that these crown-let words will reveal secrets about the Creator's way.

In Arabic, the word Allah has an isolated crown-like symbol on top of it (known as shadda).   This was not a coincidence, there is a very important reason for it.   Whatever the reason it may be, there is a high probability that someday it will answer the mystery about the crown let words in the Torah.  It's like a key and it is addressed in the arabic quran. 

 
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2013, 03:11:51 AM »

I have several atheist and/or homosexual friends who defend Islam, but they put down Christianity.

The 'left' in this country (and in the UK and, Europe) generally is anti-Israel, and pro-Palestinian

Islam avoids the spotlight of serious scrutiny in many ways. People who wish to seriously discuss this are seen as western imperialists picking on a weak foe, or are terrorised into not criticising Islam. With no real scrutiny (and only anti-Christian diatribe allowed) people continue to be mislead about Islam.

Also the left has taken control of language. I don't know how it is where you are, but Moslem terrorists are called "Islamisist terrorists" rather than Moslem terrorists.

Moslems who kill themselves are called "suicide-bombers" rather than "martyrdom-bombers" and than Moslems can argue that Islam is against suicide, therefore these bombers carrying out Islamic terror are not following Islam!

Moslems are also permitted to lie, in order to spread Islam.

Some years ago a local Sydney paper (the Telegraph) had an on-line blog with a Moslem apologist Keysar Trad. I caught him lying. I was talking about the discrimination Islam imposes upon non-Moslems. He said that non-Moslems (Dhimmi) don't have to pay the Zakat (a tax). That was a lie by concealment, because he failed to mention that Dhimmi have to pay a different take the Jizya.

I pointed out this; that his answer was not the whole truth.



Almost nothing makes sense in this post.

Then my mission here is complete
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 03:15:27 AM »

I found that difficult too. If God were so beyond imagining then how could he interact with us? The fact God makes himself known to us is a wonderful idea.

We believe, the Creator interacts with us through signs, divine coincidences, insighst, intuition, speech, dreams...etc.

This world is a test, to see if we are responsible enough to operate in heaven and obey the Creator at all times.

It's like a QA stress test, to see just how reliable we are, and to what extend would we follow the Creator's way.

Will we oppose Him, like satan did (based on rational thought and faulty logic)? Or will we follow him (based on intuition and focusing on the big picture)?

***

About physically seeing Him, it is recorded in literature that the shear power the Creator possess will annihilate you.  Even the angels have limits.

It's like trying to count to infinity, you'll never get there and you'll be exhausted just by counting large numbers.


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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2013, 03:16:53 AM »

That is, God sent a line of prophets, such as Moses, etc. and it would seem that he gave up on them, and started sending a prophet to a totally different people; the Arabs.

There are some very logical reason why He sent the Quran through an arabic prophet (through the linage of Ismail) rather than one through prophet Issac's linage.
Not all Arabs trace their lineage to Ishmael. And, although he's accorded a role of prophet in Islam

a) there's no known prophecy from him
and
b) it's irrelevant as the promise didn't pass to/through him - shown by Joseph, Moses, et al
I'm sure you know the fact that as a test, the Creator brought the Messiah to the Jews who was in their linage, but didn't have a father, and they rejected him, claiming that Mary committed fornication-- despite the Messiah uttering truthful information.
So?
In the same manner, the Creator sent them another prophet from linage of prophet Ismail, who wasn't wealthy like them, but uttered truthful information.  Some accepted his message, but quite a few didn't for the very same reason you've suggest.  This was all a test, to see if the Jews (the shallow ones) would stop focusing on the exterior (ie. raving about the claim of being the chosen people) and instead focus on the interior (ie. that all people of good morals/faith are equally blessed by the Creator-- no race is superior to any other race).
If God did then he's breaking his promise to the Jews that the Messiah would come through the House of David; unless you accept that Jesus is a Messiah in a different way to what the Jews did
 
Another reason as to why the Quran was sent through an Arabic prophet, is because their is a very mystical/mysterious feature behind the Arabic language, just like there is with the Hebrew language.
Which is one of the circular reasonings in Islam; the proof of Islam is that the Koran is 'god's holy book'. How do we know? Show another book like it; the 'test' fails because there's no book like it, when one already accepts that there's no book like it
In the Torah, you will see that some of the letters have crowns on them, and there is a quite a mystery about it.  Some Jews believe that these crown-let words will reveal secrets about the Creator's way.
I accept that there's words in the Koran that have no meaning. And this too is supposedly a sign of its holiness
In Arabic, the word Allah has an isolated crown-like symbol on top of it (known as shadda).   This was not a coincidence, there is a very important reason for it.   Whatever the reason it may be, there is a high probability that someday it will answer the mystery about the crown let words in the Torah.  It's like a key and it is addressed in the arabic quran. 
That's circular reasoning again. There's some mysterious reason behind it, because there is.

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« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 03:20:27 AM »

I found that difficult too. If God were so beyond imagining then how could he interact with us? The fact God makes himself known to us is a wonderful idea.

We believe, the Creator interacts with us through signs, divine coincidences, insighst, intuition, speech, dreams...etc.
And Arabic Wink
This world is a test, to see if we are responsible enough to operate in heaven and obey the Creator at all times.
How does your creator communicate with those he/it is so far beyond being?
It's like a QA stress test, to see just how reliable we are, and to what extend would we follow the Creator's way.

Will we oppose Him, like satan did (based on rational thought and faulty logic)? Or will we follow him (based on intuition and focusing on the big picture)?

***

About physically seeing Him, it is recorded in literature that the shear power the Creator possess will annihilate you.  Even the angels have limits.
That's the very mystery of God; that he is both knowable and unknowable. God is known through God as man; Jesus

This is not beyond reason. I can know of unknowables.

Your 'mystery' is that he's totally beyond imagining and yet can communicate with lesser beings; which are so below him as to be beyond his knowing!

ELSE he's knowable, and within imagination.

As far as I know Islam says he's beyond conception!

Yet you can conceive of him.

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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2013, 03:22:50 AM »


What does it have to do with islam?

The only hadith that I know of (and it's one accepted by Sunni, not Shi'a) has Muhammed saying if you're going to cut, don't do so severely

However animists also practice this rite
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