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Author Topic: What Attracts Westerners to Islam?  (Read 9066 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2013, 09:22:14 PM »


There are no the hadith in other words.
Thank you for your explanations.  Do you have any book recommendations on Islamic hermeneutics?  What are your thoughts on Karen Armstrong?  I've read several of her works that cover the history of Islam.  Her presentation is somewhat different in tone from another book I have been reading, Sergei Trivkovic's Sword of Islam

The most relied upon Hadith is the collection known as Bukhari.

Saying that there are ‘no Hadith’ is like me saying Christians aren’t really sure about Sunday worship because there’s a few Christians who don’t believe in it, and ignoring the majority of belief, over the majority of Christianity.

Actually a more closer analogy would be to say that there’s no ‘bible’ given that not all Christians believe in the same collections of books.

The largest Islamic group, by far are the Sunni.

The Sunni rely on Bukhari

It’s a really illogical defence of Islam to be arguing that they’re all unsure about which of their own holy books to rely upon.

Bukahri, for instance, has multiple accounts from one of Muhammed’s wives (Aisha) about how he had sexual intercourse with her when she was only nine years old. It’s very distasteful; but in Islam he is their ‘ideal’ man.

This isn’t to say all Moslems will do this; but they can.

In Islam there’s a difference between what is required and what is allowed.

For example Muhammad married a Jewess and. a Christian woman (Mary the Copt). It is not required that all Moslem men marry a Christian woman, but because Muhammad did, it’s allowed.

Some foods are forbidden. Other foods, it is known that Muhammad avoided. Some ‘pious’ Moslems will avoid the same foods Muhammad did, despite it not being ‘haraam’ (forbidden)
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« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2013, 09:25:04 PM »


This is a straw-man argument... I only stated that Islam denied the crucifixion because it was influenced by Gnostic ideas concerning the Jews.

There's strong evidence to suggest Muhammad knew of Christianity only through heretical Christians.

He believed that we worship a Trinity consisting of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the mother.
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« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2013, 04:01:12 AM »

ok montalban enough with your rant

from the last few posts it is clear to me

that you hold a big grudge with Islam

and I suspect it stated when you read the book 'The Legacy of Jihad'

and the salafi/wahabi sites you so often check out (islamqa)

***

let me make this clear to you

these groups that you pay too much attention to, have been funded, supported and radicalized for the last 4 decades by blood thirsty profit-seekers in the west

their agenda is to embarrass the religion as much as possible, so that there can be an excuse to invade the whole middle east and take all the oil as the current global economy collapses

***

Shias don't accept everything in bukari and all other sunni hadiths you reference-- they were written ~150 years after prophet, there is no way to verify what's written is true.

They only go with what's in the quran, and the living style of the prophet and his closest family [Fatimah, Ali, Hassan, Hussein...etc], people who were actually raised and trained by the prophet.

They don't practice like the salafis, which you read about.  They contradict the western perception that islam is radical.

This is the reason why there is constant drum beating, and a strong sense of urgency to start wars with nations with large populations of shias, while the nations with radicals are ignored (keeping them for a bigger war later on).

***

Finally you constantly talk about the religion being spread by the sword.

First of all, go study the history of Islam in east asia, and see how it was spread there.  It spread through merchants trading, poetry, art and inspiration, there was no swords involved. 

What you're focusing on is a bunch of outcast idiots who came from regions of the world that were predominately muslim.

It's like 100 years from now, some muslims ranting about how Christians came into their country, and used bombs/guns to spread their religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu4TW7HNK7U
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« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2013, 04:32:38 AM »

Sufism - another attractive (?) face of Islam for many a Westerner:

Howling for God - a documentary on Balkan Sufis by a fellow countryman (Dan Alexe).

Soufis d'Afghanistan - Maître et Disciple - Arnaud Desjardins.

Dhikr - Calling the Name of Allah (a Muslim version of the prayer of the heart)

A more palatable version, appealing to "Arabian Nights" fans: Bab'Aziz - The Prince That Contemplated His Soul
 
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« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2013, 05:07:08 AM »

Sufism - another attractive (?) face of Islam for many a Westerner:

Howling for God - a documentary on Balkan Sufis by a fellow countryman (Dan Alexe).

Soufis d'Afghanistan - Maître et Disciple - Arnaud Desjardins.

Dhikr - Calling the Name of Allah (a Muslim version of the prayer of the heart)

A more palatable version, appealing to "Arabian Nights" fans: Bab'Aziz - The Prince That Contemplated His Soul
 

yes sufis are great people as well
very knowledgeable folks

maybe montalban should go and check out one of their meditation centers
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« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2013, 05:36:25 AM »

yes sufis are great people as well
very knowledgeable folks

Yeah, they can be pretty sharp.

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« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2013, 06:12:06 AM »

yes sufis are great people as well
very knowledgeable folks

Yeah, they can be pretty sharp.

That's one pretty emphatic point. Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2013, 06:51:51 AM »

ok montalban enough with your rant

from the last few posts it is clear to me

that you hold a big grudge with Islam

and I suspect it stated when you read the book 'The Legacy of Jihad'

and the salafi/wahabi sites you so often check out (islamqa)
And there I was expecting a discussion. I gave a balanced account of female genital mutilation in Islam, and noted it's not particularly "Islamic" in that there's only one hadith (probably unreliable) but that there are Moslems who argue for it

YOU wanted to know what hadith.

I cited it.


let me make this clear to you

these groups that you pay too much attention to, have been funded, supported and radicalized for the last 4 decades by blood thirsty profit-seekers in the west

their agenda is to embarrass the religion as much as possible, so that there can be an excuse to invade the whole middle east and take all the oil as the current global economy collapses
thanks for the personal analysis instead of discussion post!
Shias don't accept everything in bukari and all other sunni hadiths you reference-- they were written ~150 years after prophet, there is no way to verify what's written is true.
I noted this too.

Ironically you've offered nothing but a rant in a knee-jerk response to my posts. If you want to discuss these posts let me know.

I'm here most days  laugh
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« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2013, 06:52:41 AM »

yes sufis are great people as well
very knowledgeable folks

Yeah, they can be pretty sharp.



If you think spinning around in order to attain a higher state, then yes. But ultimately it's a false path.
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« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2013, 06:53:26 AM »

Sufism - another attractive (?) face of Islam for many a Westerner:

Howling for God - a documentary on Balkan Sufis by a fellow countryman (Dan Alexe).

Soufis d'Afghanistan - Maître et Disciple - Arnaud Desjardins.

Dhikr - Calling the Name of Allah (a Muslim version of the prayer of the heart)

A more palatable version, appealing to "Arabian Nights" fans: Bab'Aziz - The Prince That Contemplated His Soul
 

There are many false paths, indeed
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2013, 07:03:34 AM »

Finally you constantly talk about the religion being spread by the sword.

First of all, go study the history of Islam in east asia, and see how it was spread there.  It spread through merchants trading, poetry, art and inspiration, there was no swords involved. 

What you're focusing on is a bunch of outcast idiots who came from regions of the world that were predominately muslim.

It's like 100 years from now, some muslims ranting about how Christians came into their country, and used bombs/guns to spread their religion:


Hey yes, something relating to what I wrote!

But then you're trying argument by distraction.

You're suggesting an argument that goes "Hey, let's ignore where it spread by the sword, because you claim one other place it didn't"

Muhammed himself spread Islam by the sword. I already noted a tribe that was exterminated under his watch.

Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation and although Aceh is the leading Islamic province the form of Islam in Indonesia is such that it is not as strict a form of Islam as in areas defeated in battle. For instance in Inodnesia you can get beer - Bintang Beer. Despite alcahol being forbidden in Islam.

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« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2013, 07:24:47 AM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam   
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« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2013, 08:25:02 AM »

Quote
The jury is out on this; see my post above with Islamic sites both arguing for and against.
The jury is out on a lot of schools of thought within Islam, female circumcision is still more of a cultural thing than strict command within Quranic texts or passed down through the traditions of the Hadith. It is practiced more widely amongst the Africans than anywhere else within the billion or so Muslims on the planet. Africans have a history of a lot of wierd practices, even amongst their Christians, they are culturally distinct apart from much of the world in many ways regardless of what faith they follow.You produce a few sites arguing for and against, I could produce hundreds of Christian sites arguing for and against on an array of many issues, tell me, is their any religion more divided than Christianity these days? Well actually it's been that way for a long time.

Quote
Logical fallacy; tu quoque
I'm making an observation, not constituting and arguement for or against female circumcision, no "fallacy" here.

Personally, I don't see the logic in circumcising females (or even males for that matter).

But I certainly don't see the "logic" in murdering unborn children neither, I don't care who claims the "right" to do it.

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« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2013, 08:34:51 AM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:

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« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2013, 08:49:26 AM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:


Probably because that would be either
a) flippant
or
b) sexist

Maybe even both
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« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2013, 08:53:13 AM »

Quote
The jury is out on this; see my post above with Islamic sites both arguing for and against.
The jury is out on a lot of schools of thought within Islam, female circumcision is still more of a cultural thing than strict command within Quranic texts or passed down through the traditions of the Hadith. It is practiced more widely amongst the Africans than anywhere else within the billion or so Muslims on the planet. Africans have a history of a lot of wierd practices, even amongst their Christians, they are culturally distinct apart from much of the world in many ways regardless of what faith they follow.You produce a few sites arguing for and against, I could produce hundreds of Christian sites arguing for and against on an array of many issues, tell me, is their any religion more divided than Christianity these days? Well actually it's been that way for a long time.

Quote
Logical fallacy; tu quoque
I'm making an observation, not constituting and arguement for or against female circumcision, no "fallacy" here.

Personally, I don't see the logic in circumcising females (or even males for that matter).

But I certainly don't see the "logic" in murdering unborn children neither, I don't care who claims the "right" to do it.



Highlighted: More tu quoque
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« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2013, 09:14:04 AM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:


Probably because that would be either
a) flippant
or
b) sexist

Maybe even both

It is not flippant or sexist. Marriage to Muslim women is one of the main reasons why men convert to Islam (Kitaabi [Christian and Jewish] women aren't obliged to convert to marry Muslim men).
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« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2013, 09:20:43 AM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:


Probably because that would be either
a) flippant
or
b) sexist

Maybe even both

It is not flippant or sexist. Marriage to Muslim women is one of the main reasons why men convert to Islam (Kitaabi [Christian and Jewish] women aren't obliged to convert to marry Muslim men).


You don't know that the woman in the pic is Moslem... or more precisely you've not demonstrated that she is.

Show me your research on this.

If they marry, they'd HAVE to convert, anyway.

It's against Islamic law for non-Moslem men to marry Moslem women.

It's not against Islamic law for Moslem men to marry non-Moslem women.

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« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2013, 10:56:46 AM »

It's not against Islamic law for Moslem men to marry non-Moslem women.

In my experience, even though what you say is true, almost every single Muslim convert I've ever come across in real life is a woman married to a Muslim man and I only know one non-Muslim woman who remains in her former faith after marrying a Muslim (and I know for a fact that she had to resist his family to remain so), so I imagine that the pressure on women to convert when they marry must be significant.

James
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« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2013, 11:25:14 AM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:


Probably because that would be either
a) flippant
or
b) sexist

Maybe even both

It is not flippant or sexist. Marriage to Muslim women is one of the main reasons why men convert to Islam (Kitaabi [Christian and Jewish] women aren't obliged to convert to marry Muslim men).


You don't know that the woman in the pic is Moslem... or more precisely you've not demonstrated that she is.

Show me your research on this.

If they marry, they'd HAVE to convert, anyway.

It's against Islamic law for non-Moslem men to marry Moslem women.

It's not against Islamic law for Moslem men to marry non-Moslem women.



The woman in the image was just an example, her covering resembles the niqab, but does it matter?

What research is needed, everyone knows this is one of the main reasons.

Did you read all of my post? One of the main reasons why Non-Muslim men convert to Islam is because they marry Muslim women which requires obligatory conversion before marriage. It is not against Shari'ah for Muslim men to marry Kitaabi women (Christians and Jews), however they can not marry women from other religions.

 
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« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2013, 06:59:11 PM »

Quote
The jury is out on this; see my post above with Islamic sites both arguing for and against.
The jury is out on a lot of schools of thought within Islam, female circumcision is still more of a cultural thing than strict command within Quranic texts or passed down through the traditions of the Hadith. It is practiced more widely amongst the Africans than anywhere else within the billion or so Muslims on the planet. Africans have a history of a lot of wierd practices, even amongst their Christians, they are culturally distinct apart from much of the world in many ways regardless of what faith they follow.You produce a few sites arguing for and against, I could produce hundreds of Christian sites arguing for and against on an array of many issues, tell me, is their any religion more divided than Christianity these days? Well actually it's been that way for a long time.

Quote
Logical fallacy; tu quoque
I'm making an observation, not constituting and arguement for or against female circumcision, no "fallacy" here.

Personally, I don't see the logic in circumcising females (or even males for that matter).

But I certainly don't see the "logic" in murdering unborn children neither, I don't care who claims the "right" to do it.



Highlighted: More tu quoque
More non sequitur.
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« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2013, 06:59:11 PM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:


Now you're talking. Grin

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« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2013, 08:04:18 PM »

It's not against Islamic law for Moslem men to marry non-Moslem women.

In my experience, even though what you say is true, almost every single Muslim convert I've ever come across in real life is a woman married to a Muslim man and I only know one non-Muslim woman who remains in her former faith after marrying a Muslim (and I know for a fact that she had to resist his family to remain so), so I imagine that the pressure on women to convert when they marry must be significant.

James
Indeed. The practicing of her faith is highly restricted. Their children have to become/be Moslem.
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« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2013, 08:06:36 PM »

Surprisingly, no one has named beautiful women as an attraction:


Probably because that would be either
a) flippant
or
b) sexist

Maybe even both

It is not flippant or sexist. Marriage to Muslim women is one of the main reasons why men convert to Islam (Kitaabi [Christian and Jewish] women aren't obliged to convert to marry Muslim men).


You don't know that the woman in the pic is Moslem... or more precisely you've not demonstrated that she is.

Show me your research on this.

If they marry, they'd HAVE to convert, anyway.

It's against Islamic law for non-Moslem men to marry Moslem women.

It's not against Islamic law for Moslem men to marry non-Moslem women.



The woman in the image was just an example, her covering resembles the niqab, but does it matter?

What research is needed, everyone knows this is one of the main reasons.

Did you read all of my post? One of the main reasons why Non-Muslim men convert to Islam is because they marry Muslim women which requires obligatory conversion before marriage. It is not against Shari'ah for Muslim men to marry Kitaabi women (Christians and Jews), however they can not marry women from other religions.

 
Only that it undermines your argument because

a) your example is not necessarily a Moslem
and
b) your relying on a 'fact' that exists only in your head (the old 'everyone knows this to be true' is a fallacy)

I noted the very point you said I didn't read. I noted that the reason they become Moslem is because they have to, as a condition of marriage!

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« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2013, 08:10:53 PM »

Islam is decidedly sexist.

Moslem apologists will try deception to show otherwise. For instance they note that the Koran says men and women are made from the same 'stuff'. However this doesn't mean they are made to be the same anymore than a plastic peg and a plastic molded table are the same.

The Koran also explicitly states that men have been made superior to women.

Men are believed to be superior in mind, as well as in body.

In inheritance a man will receive more than his sister.

Moslem apologists point out that this is because the money the girl gets is all hers, whereas the man has to both maintain himself, and her (until she is married). However the reason he has to maintain her is because in Islam they deem her not capable of doing so herself.

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« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2013, 08:28:47 PM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam    

Interesting, thanks for the input Gebre. Could it be, also, that Islam is an "easier solution" to Western immorality? What I mean is, there is less of an emphasis on spiritual struggle at least in comparison to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2013, 08:41:24 PM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam    

Interesting, thanks for the input Gebre. Could it be, also, that Islam is an "easier solution" to Western immorality? What I mean is, there is less of an emphasis on spiritual struggle at least in comparison to Orthodoxy.
This could just be another example of my lack of knowledge on Islam, but I do know that "Jihad" means "struggle" in Arabic and (from what I've been told) that western Muslims usually use it to emphasise a spiritual struggle of the sorts.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2013, 08:44:13 PM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality,...
I agree that this is a big selling point.
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« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2013, 03:00:43 AM »


[/quote] almost every single Muslim convert I've ever come across in real life is a woman married to a Muslim man [/quote] We see another example of this phenomena in the estranged wife of Tamerlan who still walks around with that stupid hijab.
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« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2013, 03:47:01 AM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?
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« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2013, 03:51:04 AM »

Islam is decidedly sexist.

Moslem apologists will try deception to show otherwise. For instance they note that the Koran says men and women are made from the same 'stuff'. However this doesn't mean they are made to be the same anymore than a plastic peg and a plastic molded table are the same.

The Koran also explicitly states that men have been made superior to women.

Men are believed to be superior in mind, as well as in body.

In inheritance a man will receive more than his sister.

Moslem apologists point out that this is because the money the girl gets is all hers, whereas the man has to both maintain himself, and her (until she is married). However the reason he has to maintain her is because in Islam they deem her not capable of doing so herself.



none of what you say is true

you obv have a grudge with the religion

and I addressed most of these claims in the other thread


in any case, I encourage you to make a prayer, and ask the Creator if what you think of Islam is true or not
after you made your prayer, pay good attention to any divine coincidences or insights that comes your way, and see if it'll address your opinions about Islam

I'm going to pray for you aswell.
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« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2013, 06:28:50 AM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

Dressing conventions have changed a bit since the 1st century, not to mention other cultures.
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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2013, 06:38:28 AM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam    

Interesting, thanks for the input Gebre. Could it be, also, that Islam is an "easier solution" to Western immorality? What I mean is, there is less of an emphasis on spiritual struggle at least in comparison to Orthodoxy.
This could just be another example of my lack of knowledge on Islam, but I do know that "Jihad" means "struggle" in Arabic and (from what I've been told) that western Muslims usually use it to emphasise a spiritual struggle of the sorts.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope all these links are working

This is another one of those get-outs Moslems use.

Jihad means war, but can also mean struggle - that is the literal truth.

However for all intents and purposes, it is so synonymous with war as to make other use of interpretations deceptive.

A comprehensive book "The Legacy of Jihad" covers all four major Islamic schools of jurisprudence over the history of Islam to show that Jihad means war - in an Islamic sense.

Moslems think so lowly of non-Moslems that they can't even take us as close friends - so you can compare - here's three different translations of one particular verse
Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 5:
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html


Now, if you think that this verse is taken out of context, let's hear from some Moslem experts
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?
 
Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, "This is my brother," when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm
 
Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah#Sunni_view

Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/59879
 
"Clarification of the important rule: it is haraam to take kaafirs as close friends and protectors
Praise be to Allaah.
Yes, examples will certainly explain and clarify what is meant, so we will move straight on to quoting some of the most important points that the scholars and leaders of da’wah have said about different ways of showing friendship towards kaafirs."
http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=601&Itemid=63
 
The Muslim should feel in his heart that he hates the kuffaar and the way they look and behave.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/2322
 
Fellow Muslims! Remoteness from Allaah causes psychological pain. Sins make one’s heart depressed and deny one of the pleasures of faith. The Kaafir is the worst of Allaah’s creatures
http://www.alminbar.com/khutbaheng/1819.htm

There's no concept in Islam (as far as I'm aware of "love thy neighbour") as there is in Christianity.

With hate enshrined in their holy books, it's very easy to wage war on non-believers

Muhammed himself encouraged murder

Here is an example of him allowing someone to lie to another in order to kill him...

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369
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« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2013, 06:41:18 AM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?


Mary's not wearing an hijab.

The hijab is a Moslem clothing device used for a particular purpose.

It is not simply ANY covering of the head; else kilts would be dresses.

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« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2013, 06:43:55 AM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

Dressing conventions have changed a bit since the 1st century, not to mention other cultures.

It's easy to throw around words as if they have a different meaning. We see that here in the case of Islamic apology.

A woman wearing a head scarf or head covering is not necessarily wearing an hijab

The Hijab is indeed a head covering for women, but it has a particular purpose.

If you or I wore a covering to protect us from the sun it would have a different function from the hijab

If function didn't affect meaning then you could say I wear dresses by virtue of having a kilt.

The Hijab has a function in Islam

Mary wasn't Moslem

Therefore Mary dind't wear a Hijab
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« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2013, 06:45:44 AM »

Islam is decidedly sexist.

Moslem apologists will try deception to show otherwise. For instance they note that the Koran says men and women are made from the same 'stuff'. However this doesn't mean they are made to be the same anymore than a plastic peg and a plastic molded table are the same.

The Koran also explicitly states that men have been made superior to women.

Men are believed to be superior in mind, as well as in body.

In inheritance a man will receive more than his sister.

Moslem apologists point out that this is because the money the girl gets is all hers, whereas the man has to both maintain himself, and her (until she is married). However the reason he has to maintain her is because in Islam they deem her not capable of doing so herself.



none of what you say is true

You're welcome to engage in discussion. Crying "no it's not" would not be a form of discussion.
you obv have a grudge with the religion

and I addressed most of these claims in the other thread

Claims of victories elsewhere don't make discussion either
in any case, I encourage you to make a prayer, and ask the Creator if what you think of Islam is true or not
after you made your prayer, pay good attention to any divine coincidences or insights that comes your way, and see if it'll address your opinions about Islam

I'm going to pray for you aswell.

You're welcome to pray to a created being all you wish.
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« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2013, 06:48:05 AM »

Islam is decidedly sexist.

Moslem apologists will try deception to show otherwise. For instance they note that the Koran says men and women are made from the same 'stuff'. However this doesn't mean they are made to be the same anymore than a plastic peg and a plastic molded table are the same.

The Koran also explicitly states that men have been made superior to women.

Men are believed to be superior in mind, as well as in body.



none of what you say is true


For anyone interested in this, one should not that I cite either Islamic or academic sites, generally not anti-Islamic sites.

Here again are Moslems talking about this themselves:

Here are quotes from Moslem sites offering advice to Moslems.
 
from Islamic Voice

Does a wife have the right to refuse sex with her husband?
 

Q. If at a particular time, a lady has no desire for sex with her husband, but he insists for it, what is her right of refusal in this context?
 
Abdul Wahabs
 

A. If a husband expresses his desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and asks her to fulfill his need, then she should fulfill her husband’s desire, and she has no right to refuse him or deprive him of his need (unless of course if she is undergoing her monthly menstruation period or is down with illness).
 
Islam encourages and insists on chastity and fidelity. Islam prohibits and condemns illicit sexual relations, extra-marital affairs, pre-marriage sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution, pornography and promiscuity. It is for this reason that a wife is bound to fulfill her husband’s sexual desires so as to prevent him from straying.
 
Narrated Abu Huraira
 
Allah’s Apostle said, “If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relations) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.”
(Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.4 Hadith No.460 & Sahih Muslim Vol.2 Hadith No.3368)
 
Narrated Abu Huraira
 
The Messenger of Allah (swt) said: By Him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her until he (her husband) is pleased with her.
(Sahih Muslim Vol.2 Hadith No.3367)
 
Narrated Talq ibn Ali
 
Allah’s Messenger (Pbuh) said, “When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven.”
(Al-Tirmidhi Hadith No.1160 & Ibn Ma’jah Hadith No.4165)
 
From all the above-mentioned Ahadith, it is Wajib upon the wife to fulfill the desire of her husband whenever he wishes.
 
If the relationship between the husband and the wife is truly based on Islamic principles, in which both of them treat each other with love, affection, kindness, fulfilling all Islamic desires and settling all matters with mutual agreement and understanding, the question of the wife refusing the sexual desire of the husband does not arise. Nor does the question arise of the husband being insistent or getting perturbed at her not wanting to have sex.
 
Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an in Surah Rum, chapter 30, verse no. 21:
 
“And among His signs is this that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.”
 
If on certain rare occasions, the husband shows a desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and for some genuine reason the wife shows a hesitation (not refusal), then if possible, the husband can be understanding and voluntarily and happily give indication for postponement!
 
Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an, in Surah Baqara, chapter 2, verse no 187:
 
“They (your wives) are your garments. And you are their garments.”
 
Here, because of the strong bond between the husband and the wife, if the husband is not displeased or angry, the angels will not curse the wife and neither will she displease the Almighty. And Allah knows the best.
http://www.islamicvoice.com/february.2003/religion.htm

QUERIES ON ISLAM
Does a wife have the right to refuse sex with her husband ?

Q5.   If at a particular time, a lady has no desire for sex with her husband, but he insists for it, what is her right of refusal in this context ?
 
Abdul Wahab
 
A5.    If a husband expresses his desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and asks her to fulfill his need, then she should fulfill her husband's desire, and she has no right to refuse him or deprive him of his need (unless of course if she is undergoing her monthly menstruation period or is down with illness.
 
Islam encourages and insists on chastity and fidelity. Islam prohibits and condemn illicit sexual relations, extra-maritial affairs, pre-marriage sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution, pornography and promiscuity. It is for this reason that a wife is bound to fulfill her husband's sexual desires so as to prevent him form straying.
 
Narrarted Abu Huraira
 
Allah's Apostle (Pbuh) said, " If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relations) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 4 Hadith No. 460 & Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Hadith No. 3368)
 
Narrated Abu Huraira
 
The Messenger of Allah (swt) said: By him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her untill he (her husband) is pleased with her. (Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Hadith No. 3367)
 
Narrated Taiq ibn Ali
 
Allah's Messenger (Pbuh) said, " When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." (Al Tirmidhi Hadith No. 1160 & Ibn Ma'jah Hadith No. 4165)
 
From all the above mentioned Ahadith, it is Wajib upon the wife to fulfill the desire of her husband whenever he wishes. If the relationship between the husband and the wife is truly based on Islamic principles, in which both of them treat each other with love, affection, kindness, fulfilling all Islamic desires and settling all matters with mutual agreement and understanding, the question of the wife refusing the sexual desire of the husband does not arise. Nor does the question arise of the husband being insistent or getting perturbed at her not wanting to have sex.
 
Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an in Surah Rum, Chapter 30, verse no. 21:
 
" And among His signs is this that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are Signs for those who reflect."
 
If on certain rare occasions, the husband shows a desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and for some genuine reason the wife shows a hesitation (not refusal), then it is possible, the husband can be understanding and voluntarily and happily give indication for postponement!
 
Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an, in Surah Baqara, chapter 2, verse no. 187:
 
"They (your wives) are your garments. And you are their garments."
 
Here, because of the strong bond between the husband and the wife, if the husband is not displeased or angry, the angels will not curse his wife and neither will she displease the Almighty. And Allah knows the best.
 
http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques5.htm
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« Reply #127 on: April 27, 2013, 06:52:12 AM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam    

Interesting, thanks for the input Gebre. Could it be, also, that Islam is an "easier solution" to Western immorality? What I mean is, there is less of an emphasis on spiritual struggle at least in comparison to Orthodoxy.

People are being moved to react to what is perceived to be western valuelessness
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« Reply #128 on: April 27, 2013, 11:38:08 AM »

  Some people like that world view of regimented control.

 If I may 'springboard' from Isa's words... There were many reasons why I converted to Islam.  Arrogance and rebellion, were but two.  But the 'regimented control' was a big draw for me, having come from a chaotic, insecure childhood. 
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« Reply #129 on: April 27, 2013, 11:44:03 AM »

Most, if not all, have an idealized image of what Islam is.  They are disenchanted with Christiandom-as opposed to the Church-and think, as biro put it, the grass is greener. Some are a rebellious spirit, in the embrace of "the other."

Dadgum, son!  Did we know each other way back then?  For me, it was a little of both. 
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« Reply #130 on: April 27, 2013, 11:59:56 AM »

Might it be that they don't crave the "peace" prescribed by Christ....but, prefer the radicial, angry, get even "peace" of Islam.

Really Liza the above is unfair,...


I'm not taking sides, but I thought Liza said that some folks might be attracted to that side of Islam and I completely agree with her if that's what she meant.  Twenty years ago I was an insecure, angry kid (I was actually 23, but behaved like a kid). The militant aspect of Islam gave me what I thought was security, power, and sound footing.  

I would readily agree with you, Orthonorm, had she or anyone else said that all converts are attracted to the radical, militant side of Islam.  
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« Reply #131 on: April 27, 2013, 12:07:15 PM »

I have several atheist and/or homosexual friends who defend Islam, but they put down Christianity.

The 'left' in this country (and in the UK and, Europe) generally is anti-Israel, and pro-Palestinian

Islam avoids the spotlight of serious scrutiny in many ways. People who wish to seriously discuss this are seen as western imperialists picking on a weak foe, or are terrorised into not criticising Islam. With no real scrutiny (and only anti-Christian diatribe allowed) people continue to be mislead about Islam.

Also the left has taken control of language. I don't know how it is where you are, but Moslem terrorists are called "Islamisist terrorists" rather than Moslem terrorists.

Moslems who kill themselves are called "suicide-bombers" rather than "martyrdom-bombers" and than Moslems can argue that Islam is against suicide, therefore these bombers carrying out Islamic terror are not following Islam!

Moslems are also permitted to lie, in order to spread Islam.

Some years ago a local Sydney paper (the Telegraph) had an on-line blog with a Moslem apologist Keysar Trad. I caught him lying. I was talking about the discrimination Islam imposes upon non-Moslems. He said that non-Moslems (Dhimmi) don't have to pay the Zakat (a tax). That was a lie by concealment, because he failed to mention that Dhimmi have to pay a different take the Jizya.

I pointed out this; that his answer was not the whole truth.



Almost nothing makes sense in this post.

Keep trying, son.  You'll get there. 
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« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2013, 01:00:38 PM »

Montalban,

 I'm afraid you might be guilty of doing what non-Christians do when they pull this or that verse, this or that teaching out of context and use it against us.  You see, there are denominations of Islam (Sunni, Shi'a, Sufi, Qur'an only,...)  Then within each denomination, there are differing jurisprudence, many of which contradict each other.  Within Sunnism, for example, I think there are maybe 4 or 5 schools of jurisprudence (called Madhab).  If you were to isolate the two main sects of Islam, Sunnism and Shi'ism, for example, you will find vastly differing opinions on virtually everything.  Even the way these opinions were arrived at are vastly different.  For example, Sunni's and Shi'ites use different hadith (sayings, counsels).  Shi'ites use neo-Platonism while Sunni's generally do not.  But then when you look at the number of sub-sects (within Shi'ism, for example, there are many [Isma'ili, Twelvers, Alawi,...]) it becomes mind boggling. 

 Often times, even the same sect will have vastly differing opinions.  Some are at great odds with one another, too. 

 In short, Islam is not monolithic and we absolutely cannot take one hadith or Qur'anic verse (ayat) and hold it up to be general.   

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« Reply #133 on: April 27, 2013, 01:41:55 PM »

Gabriel, could you please reply to my earlier question about spiritual struggle if you get the chance? I think it would be helpful to hear about this from an Islam to Orthodoxy convert.
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« Reply #134 on: April 27, 2013, 01:59:31 PM »

Gabriel, could you please reply to my earlier question about spiritual struggle if you get the chance? I think it would be helpful to hear about this from an Islam to Orthodoxy convert.

 I don't think spiritual struggles are any different in Islam than with Christianity.  For example, we've all heard the word Jihad thrown around, often way out of context.  Like all Semitic languages, Arabic words are formed from a tri-consonant root word.  The word Jihad comes from the word jhd (jahd) and it means to make an effort, to struggle.  In a religious context, it's a spiritual struggle.  Something that all Muslims generally agree on is the Greater Jihad; that is, to struggle, or make an effort in our everyday lives to do the right thing.  Often times I'm lazy about praying.  The Fathers even acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes.  Muslims face the same struggles and temptations that everyone else face and so they make a great jihad to get up early morning, every morning and pray.  Incidentally, the lesser jihad is the 'holy war' we hear about. 

 Is that helpful? 
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