OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 06:51:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What Attracts Westerners to Islam?  (Read 9794 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
fibonacci
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Rabbaniyyun, follower of Ahl al-Bayt
Posts: 165



« Reply #405 on: May 01, 2013, 12:32:38 AM »

That makes no sense. If it's a beard that's attracting women to men, why would men have to wear a hat?

A heavy hat, makes it difficult for you to move your head quickly and stare at something that you shouldn't.

Quote
I once lowered my gaze when talking to a woman and she accused me of staring at her breasts!

Avoid going to places where women dress provocatively and show cleavage.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:36:44 AM by fibonacci » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #406 on: May 01, 2013, 12:36:32 AM »


Did you read the article?

"...Surprisingly, 89 per cent of men say good hair is the first thing they notice...."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/29/men-attracted-to-hair-_n_3179389.html?ir=Canada+Living

There are other research findings that reached to the same conclusion.


First of all....that survey was specifically formulated in honor of "Hairstyle Appreciation Day"....do you think they would advertise on this day that men didn't even notice women's hair?

Second...just how many men were surveyed?  Was it 83% out of 10 men who work in the hairstyle industry?  This is hardly a scientific survey.

If you want to know what men are attracted to, just start a poll on this site.  We've got a lot of men...and I'm sure they'd be happy to share what they find attractive in women.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #407 on: May 01, 2013, 12:39:36 AM »

Doubtful. I notice the shape of the person.

I'm sorry, not all of us have eagle eyes like you.
Well if you don't notice the shape, then you're probably got poor eyesight.

Even in silohette you notice the person's shape



Easiest way around that; shave all women bald

However it's about men attracted to 'good' hair. And it's not exclusive of men being attracted to anything else, first or otherwise.

Did you read the article?

"...Surprisingly, 89 per cent of men say good hair is the first thing they notice...."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/29/men-attracted-to-hair-_n_3179389.html?ir=Canada+Living

There are other research findings that reached to the same conclusion.



Yes, I noted the difference between your claim: Noticing hair, to it's claim: Noticing good hair.

If a woman has good hair, it may stand out.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:41:10 AM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
fibonacci
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Rabbaniyyun, follower of Ahl al-Bayt
Posts: 165



« Reply #408 on: May 01, 2013, 12:40:36 AM »


Did you read the article?

"...Surprisingly, 89 per cent of men say good hair is the first thing they notice...."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/29/men-attracted-to-hair-_n_3179389.html?ir=Canada+Living

There are other research findings that reached to the same conclusion.


First of all....that survey was specifically formulated in honor of "Hairstyle Appreciation Day"....do you think they would advertise on this day that men didn't even notice women's hair?

Second...just how many men were surveyed?  Was it 83% out of 10 men who work in the hairstyle industry?  This is hardly a scientific survey.

If you want to know what men are attracted to, just start a poll on this site.  We've got a lot of men...and I'm sure they'd be happy to share what they find attractive in women.



it's not what they find attractive

it's what feature they notice first on a women from a distance

anyone with a logical mind would say hair is the first they notice, when identifying a female
Logged
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #409 on: May 01, 2013, 12:42:25 AM »


Did you read the article?

"...Surprisingly, 89 per cent of men say good hair is the first thing they notice...."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/29/men-attracted-to-hair-_n_3179389.html?ir=Canada+Living

There are other research findings that reached to the same conclusion.


First of all....that survey was specifically formulated in honor of "Hairstyle Appreciation Day"....do you think they would advertise on this day that men didn't even notice women's hair?

Second...just how many men were surveyed?  Was it 83% out of 10 men who work in the hairstyle industry?  This is hardly a scientific survey.

If you want to know what men are attracted to, just start a poll on this site.  We've got a lot of men...and I'm sure they'd be happy to share what they find attractive in women.



it's not what they find attractive

it's what feature they notice first on a women from a distance

anyone with a logical mind would say hair is the first they notice, when identifying a female

Noticing 'good hair' first means that the person has to be up close for them to even see the hair, so your interpretation of this is men go around not seeing women approaching until they're so close as to notice their hairstyle
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #410 on: May 01, 2013, 12:44:31 AM »


Did you read the article?

"...Surprisingly, 89 per cent of men say good hair is the first thing they notice...."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/29/men-attracted-to-hair-_n_3179389.html?ir=Canada+Living

There are other research findings that reached to the same conclusion.


First of all....that survey was specifically formulated in honor of "Hairstyle Appreciation Day"....do you think they would advertise on this day that men didn't even notice women's hair?

Second...just how many men were surveyed?  Was it 83% out of 10 men who work in the hairstyle industry?  This is hardly a scientific survey.

If you want to know what men are attracted to, just start a poll on this site.  We've got a lot of men...and I'm sure they'd be happy to share what they find attractive in women.



It's just a light-weight newstory not science research


Another site says it's the eyes:
. Eyes
Is she working with a pair of Princess Jasmine doe eyes? Are they icy blues, mytic greens or blah browns?

2. Mouth
a. Teeth: Are her choppers clean and straight-ish? Are they white without the Long Island/Hollywood ultra glow?
b. Lips: Is her smile joker wide, toddler small or chapped? Is her pucker lubed beyond reason?

3. Ears
Are they super boney, cute and simple or hair hiders? Does she have super lobes?

4. Boobs
In this category, we revert to cave man basics. Are they big, small, firm or floppy? Also is she making them her visual calling card or keeping them tucked away?

5. Hands
We pay attention to finger size and width. Are they nubby and stubby? Basketball palming or ET large? Also, how are those nails and cuticles looking?

6. Thighs to Butt Ratio
Is she sporty, thin or thick as a brick? Basically, we look to see if she's hiding or hollerin' this area?

7. Feet
Do they remind us of a Hobbit's feet or Natalie Portman's peds? Will we be able to wear her shoes when we can't find ours?

8. Hair
Does she have sweet, make-out, roll around in the grass hair, or sleek, pulled-back, out-at-the-club hair? Is it morning monster-esque, or does she look like Oily Locks?

9. Voice and Speech
Is it hoarse and scary? 8-yr-old girl creepy? Foreign exotic? Is it California Rich girl? New York tough-ass? Midwest modest?

10. Overall Vibe and Body Language
Is she a Pushy Patty or Mellow Mary? A Sexy Sandy or an Insecure Isabelle? Do we click with her? Yes, we have concluded she is hot as hell, but if we don't vibe, the mission's aborted.

http://www.glamour.com/sex-love-life/blogs/smitten/2010/12/ask-a-guy-what-are-the-first-1.html
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:59:34 AM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #411 on: May 01, 2013, 12:46:19 AM »

That makes no sense. If it's a beard that's attracting women to men, why would men have to wear a hat?

A heavy hat, makes it difficult for you to move your head quickly and stare at something that you shouldn't.

That's missing the point. You're saying WOMEN are attracted by beards. Why wear a hat when it's not the object of their attraction

And it's odd too because you reckon men first notice the head, women the neck area

I once lowered my gaze when talking to a woman and she accused me of staring at her breasts!

Avoid going to places where women dress provocatively and show cleavage.

In Australia in summer, that's most places - Australia is a warm nation -again it's to do with culture.

Sydney gets very humid
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:50:23 AM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
fibonacci
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Rabbaniyyun, follower of Ahl al-Bayt
Posts: 165



« Reply #412 on: May 01, 2013, 01:04:21 AM »

That's missing the point. You're saying WOMEN are attracted by beards. Why wear a hat when it's not the object of their attraction

And it's odd too because you reckon men first notice the head, women the neck area

I don't think I explicitly stated that women are attracted to beards.  Although it may be the case for some women (depends on her cycle).

What I said earlier, is that one of the purposes for the beard is that it'll allow women to identify you as a man from a distance -- it won't creep them out.  Also it gives them a heads up, so they can cover up if they're not dressed modestly.

In terms of what features on men that instigates lust in women... it's the eyes.  So a man (and women) have to minimize the chances of making eye contact.


Quote
In Australia in summer, that's most places - Australia is a warm nation -again it's to do with culture.

Sydney gets very humid


well you have to try your best to avoid such an environment

if it's that difficult, maybe wear dark tinted glasses

every feeling of lust will be counted against you on day of judgement
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:06:15 AM by fibonacci » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,326


WWW
« Reply #413 on: May 01, 2013, 01:57:16 AM »

every feeling of lust will be counted against you on day of judgement

I can Confess the many lusts and receive absolution in the Orthodox Church.

If I'm a westerner looking towards Mecca, I don't need absolution nor salvation?

Since when does Islam suggest that a person talk to a counselor about his/her personal problems?  I thought the Koran and the hadiths had all the answers.
Logged
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #414 on: May 01, 2013, 03:20:58 AM »

That's missing the point. You're saying WOMEN are attracted by beards. Why wear a hat when it's not the object of their attraction

And it's odd too because you reckon men first notice the head, women the neck area

I don't think I explicitly stated that women are attracted to beards.  Although it may be the case for some women (depends on her cycle).
ROFL

I haven't laughed that loud in ages.

However you are correct about attraction - you said first thing they notice, not first thing that attracts
What I said earlier, is that one of the purposes for the beard is that it'll allow women to identify you as a man from a distance -- it won't creep them out.  Also it gives them a heads up, so they can cover up if they're not dressed modestly.

In terms of what features on men that instigates lust in women... it's the eyes.  So a man (and women) have to minimize the chances of making eye contact.


Quote
In Australia in summer, that's most places - Australia is a warm nation -again it's to do with culture.

Sydney gets very humid


well you have to try your best to avoid such an environment

if it's that difficult, maybe wear dark tinted glasses

every feeling of lust will be counted against you on day of judgement

I don't know how God will judge me. I have faith, however
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
john_mo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 762



« Reply #415 on: May 01, 2013, 04:01:50 AM »

I found out that Islam has a teaching that each person has two angels, one on each shoulder.  The one on the right records their good deeds, and the one on the left records their bad deeds.  This tradition is called Kiraman Katibin.

I can't exactly explain why, but this idea bothers me.
Logged

Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

—G.K. Chesterton
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,351


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #416 on: May 01, 2013, 05:06:28 AM »

I found out that Islam has a teaching that each person has two angels, one on each shoulder.  The one on the right records their good deeds, and the one on the left records their bad deeds.  This tradition is called Kiraman Katibin.

I can't exactly explain why, but this idea bothers me.

Hollywood has done that ad nauseam.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #417 on: May 01, 2013, 05:20:42 AM »

I found out that Islam has a teaching that each person has two angels, one on each shoulder.  The one on the right records their good deeds, and the one on the left records their bad deeds.  This tradition is called Kiraman Katibin.

I can't exactly explain why, but this idea bothers me.

The (more palatable) Jewish version:

Quote
The Dual Nature

In Genesis 2:7, the Bible states that God formed (vayyitzer) man. The spelling of this word is unusual: it uses two consecutive Yods instead of the one you would expect. The rabbis inferred that these Yods stand for the word yetzer, which means impulse, and the existence of two Yods here indicates that humanity was formed with two impulses: a good impulse (the yetzer tov) and an evil impulse (the yetzer ra).

The yetzer tov is the moral conscience, the inner voice that reminds you of God's law when you consider doing something that is forbidden. According to some views, it does not enter a person until his 13th birthday, when he becomes responsible for following the commandments. See Bar Mitzvah.

The yetzer ra is more difficult to define, because there are many different ideas about it. It is not a desire to do evil in the way we normally think of it in Western society: a desire to cause senseless harm. Rather, it is usually conceived as the selfish nature, the desire to satisfy personal needs (food, shelter, sex, etc.) without regard for the moral consequences of fulfilling those desires.

The yetzer ra is not a bad thing. It was created by God, and all things created by God are good. The Talmud notes that without the yetzer ra (the desire to satisfy personal needs), man would not build a house, marry a wife, beget children or conduct business affairs. But the yetzer ra can lead to wrongdoing when it is not controlled by the yetzer tov. There is nothing inherently wrong with hunger, but it can lead you to steal food. There is nothing inherently wrong with sexual desire, but it can lead you to commit rape, adultery, incest or other sexual perversion.

The yetzer ra is generally seen as something internal to a person, not as an external force acting on a person. The idea that "the devil made me do it" is not in line with the majority of thought in Judaism. Although it has been said that Satan and the yetzer ra are one and the same, this is more often understood as meaning that Satan is merely a personification of our own selfish desires, rather than that our selfish desires are caused by some external force.

People have the ability to choose which impulse to follow: the yetzer tov or the yetzer ra. That is the heart of the Jewish understanding of free will. The Talmud notes that all people are descended from Adam, so no one can blame his own wickedness on his ancestry. On the contrary, we all have the ability to make our own choices, and we will all be held responsible for the choices we make.

Source
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 05:43:28 AM by Romaios » Logged
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #418 on: May 01, 2013, 06:12:37 AM »

I found out that Islam has a teaching that each person has two angels, one on each shoulder.  The one on the right records their good deeds, and the one on the left records their bad deeds.  This tradition is called Kiraman Katibin.

I can't exactly explain why, but this idea bothers me.

Hollywood has done that ad nauseam.

Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #419 on: May 01, 2013, 06:19:42 AM »

I found out that Islam has a teaching that each person has two angels, one on each shoulder.  The one on the right records their good deeds, and the one on the left records their bad deeds.  This tradition is called Kiraman Katibin.

I can't exactly explain why, but this idea bothers me.

Is that to balance out Satan being up one's nose (he gets in there o'er night apparently)
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,637


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #420 on: May 01, 2013, 06:50:05 AM »

If Satan is up my nose, that would explain how congested I felt this morning. Also, the childhood rhyme about hoses. Smiley
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #421 on: May 01, 2013, 07:28:39 AM »

If Satan is up my nose, that would explain how congested I felt this morning. Also, the childhood rhyme about hoses. Smiley

(1) Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.  (Book #002, Hadith #0462)

Also;

(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night."  (Book #54, Hadith #516)


There's this site for searching Hadith:
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:30:30 AM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #422 on: May 01, 2013, 06:21:06 PM »


Dislike for anything Arab. Probably some kind of antithesis for his former religion and Islamic homeland.

I do not hate Arabic or anything Arab. This is a matter of preference. I prefer Hebrew to Arabic, the Temple to the Cube in Mecca, the Tanakh to the Qur'an, Elohim to Allah.

I do exactly that. AFAIK several Holy Fathers believe that too. Muslims are heretics, not pagans.

First, no Church Father was superior to Elohim. Elohim designated the deities of the nations as idols. What Arabs worship as "Allah" today is actually Hubal in disguise. Meccan pagans believed Hubal to be the greatest deity and often said "Hubal Akbar!". Sounds familiar? The pantheon in Mecca had been dedicated to Hubal and Hubal's symbol was the crescent moon.

Second, Church Fathers had limited knowledge of Islam in those days. St. John's (Damascene) comments on Islam show that he had no access to the Qur'an. (He mistakenly supposed that a chapter in the Qur'an was entitled "the camel", which is not the case.)

Third, Muhammad and/or the writer of the Qur'an distorted the Bible and even the way Elohim identified Himself in the burning bush. Let's make a comparison:

I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. (Exodus 3:6)

Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)." (Surah 2:133)

The writer of the Qur'an inserted Ishmael's name between Abraham and Isaac while referring to the one true God and thus tried to alter the formulation in the divine revelation. Christians worship the God of Israel (Elohim) whereas Muslims worship the false deity of the Qur'an.



Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #423 on: May 01, 2013, 06:34:54 PM »


Dislike for anything Arab. Probably some kind of antithesis for his former religion and Islamic homeland.

I do not hate Arabic or anything Arab. This is a matter of preference. I prefer Hebrew to Arabic, the Temple to the Cube in Mecca, the Tanakh to the Qur'an, Elohim to Allah.

I do exactly that. AFAIK several Holy Fathers believe that too. Muslims are heretics, not pagans.

First, no Church Father was superior to Elohim. Elohim designated the deities of the nations as idols. What Arabs worship as "Allah" today is actually Hubal in disguise.

Not this Arab.

Nor this one:


Meccan pagans believed Hubal to be the greatest deity and often said "Hubal Akbar!". Sounds familiar? The pantheon in Mecca had been dedicated to Hubal and Hubal's symbol was the crescent moon.

Second, Church Fathers had limited knowledge of Islam in those days. St. John's (Damascene) comments on Islam show that he had no access to the Qur'an. (He mistakenly supposed that a chapter in the Qur'an was entitled "the camel", which is not the case.)
Actually, his information of the Islam of his day is quite informed.  That he didn't know the Islam institutionalized a century after his death-the one we are stuck with now-isn't his fault.  Even today, for instance, the names of the Surahs differ and have variants, and St. John names "the Table" and other names still used, along with stories from its contents.

Third, Muhammad and/or the writer of the Qur'an distorted the Bible and even the way Elohim identified Himself in the burning bush. Let's make a comparison:

I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. (Exodus 3:6)

Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)." (Surah 2:133)

The writer of the Qur'an inserted Ishmael's name between Abraham and Isaac while referring to the one true God and thus tried to alter the formulation in the divine revelation. Christians worship the God of Israel (Elohim) whereas Muslims worship the false deity of the Qur'an.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,506



« Reply #424 on: May 01, 2013, 06:40:56 PM »

Actually, his information of the Islam of his day is quite informed. That he didn't know the Islam institutionalized a century after his death-the one we are stuck with now-isn't his fault.  Even today, for instance, the names of the Surahs differ and have variants, and St. John names "the Table" and other names still used, along with stories from its contents.

Can you say little more about this. Very broadly if you want. Are you talking a change in terms of theology, as a self-aware polity, or Huh??

I don't see how anyone could say his writing on Islam is poorly formed. It is polemical sure, but so what.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #425 on: May 01, 2013, 06:54:11 PM »


Dislike for anything Arab. Probably some kind of antithesis for his former religion and Islamic homeland.

I do not hate Arabic or anything Arab. This is a matter of preference. I prefer Hebrew to Arabic, the Temple to the Cube in Mecca, the Tanakh to the Qur'an, Elohim to Allah.

I do exactly that. AFAIK several Holy Fathers believe that too. Muslims are heretics, not pagans.

First, no Church Father was superior to Elohim. Elohim designated the deities of the nations as idols. What Arabs worship as "Allah" today is actually Hubal in disguise.

Not this Arab.

Nor this one:


My church is Arab (insofar as that's the language used). I'm Antiochian Orthodox. Al-lah, is something I always thought meant literally 'the god'
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #426 on: May 01, 2013, 08:54:15 PM »


Dislike for anything Arab. Probably some kind of antithesis for his former religion and Islamic homeland.

I do not hate Arabic or anything Arab. This is a matter of preference. I prefer Hebrew to Arabic, the Temple to the Cube in Mecca, the Tanakh to the Qur'an, Elohim to Allah.

I do exactly that. AFAIK several Holy Fathers believe that too. Muslims are heretics, not pagans.

First, no Church Father was superior to Elohim. Elohim designated the deities of the nations as idols. What Arabs worship as "Allah" today is actually Hubal in disguise.

Not this Arab.

Nor this one:


My church is Arab (insofar as that's the language used). I'm Antiochian Orthodox. Al-lah, is something I always thought meant literally 'the god'

Oh no... we're going to have that discussion again. Muslims insist Allah is not Al-lah for some reason, but some totally special name that defies Arabic grammar.
Logged
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #427 on: May 01, 2013, 09:13:58 PM »

Oh no... we're going to have that discussion again. Muslims insist Allah is not Al-lah for some reason, but some totally special name that defies Arabic grammar.

I think that Moslems have a right to change the meaning.

It MAY have referred to 'the god' but if it’s now synonymous with their one god and therefore Allah is a better rendition than al-Lah, then so be it.

Languages change.


However that pic, is the person an "Arab" simply because they speak Arabic?

I speak English. I am not English
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:14:58 PM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #428 on: May 01, 2013, 09:23:33 PM »

Oh no... we're going to have that discussion again. Muslims insist Allah is not Al-lah for some reason, but some totally special name that defies Arabic grammar.

I think that Moslems have a right to change the meaning.

It MAY have referred to 'the god' but if it’s now synonymous with their one god and therefore Allah is a better rendition than al-Lah, then so be it.

Languages change.

Its not about changing the meaning, its about denying the fact of where the words came from. They deny 'Allah' was ever 'al-lah', its just a unique name that for all purposes appears to follow Arabic grammatical conventions according to what they say...
Logged
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #429 on: May 01, 2013, 09:30:23 PM »

Oh no... we're going to have that discussion again. Muslims insist Allah is not Al-lah for some reason, but some totally special name that defies Arabic grammar.

I think that Moslems have a right to change the meaning.

It MAY have referred to 'the god' but if it’s now synonymous with their one god and therefore Allah is a better rendition than al-Lah, then so be it.

Languages change.

Its not about changing the meaning, its about denying the fact of where the words came from. They deny 'Allah' was ever 'al-lah', its just a unique name that for all purposes appears to follow Arabic grammatical conventions according to what they say...


Easter as a name derives from a pagan term (the same Germanic root-word that gives us Oestrogen)

That doesn’t mean that Easter is pagan – as many secularists claim

However if it's simply an argument of academics; that they should recognise the origins of the word, then I agree. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging a fact

Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #430 on: May 01, 2013, 10:46:25 PM »

Easter as a name derives from a pagan term (the same Germanic root-word that gives us Oestrogen)

Actually not:

Quote
oestrus , estrus or estrum
 
— n
   a regularly occurring period of sexual receptivity in most female mammals, except humans, during which ovulation occurs and copulation can take place; heat
 
[from Latin oestrus  gadfly, hence frenzy, from Greek oistros ]

Oestrum ≠ Eostra.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 10:47:58 PM by Romaios » Logged
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #431 on: May 01, 2013, 11:16:12 PM »

Easter as a name derives from a pagan term (the same Germanic root-word that gives us Oestrogen)

Actually not:

Quote
oestrus , estrus or estrum
 
— n
   a regularly occurring period of sexual receptivity in most female mammals, except humans, during which ovulation occurs and copulation can take place; heat
 
[from Latin oestrus  gadfly, hence frenzy, from Greek oistros ]

Oestrum ≠ Eostra.


You are correct about the root word of Oestrogen.

However Easter’s association with paganism owing to the word’s Germanic (pagan) origins is still argued.


Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #432 on: May 01, 2013, 11:19:28 PM »


MAULANA MUHAMMAD ALI, the author cited by The_true_path lived in the late 1800s. He was a modernist; educated in Britain.
"His editorials played a critical role in molding the political outlook of modern India. "
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mmali.htm

As such he was an apologist for Islam; wishing to make it more palatable to his western educated audience. This was his raison d'etre, to provide a false idea of Islam, based on recent conjecture.


 Now you're quoting an Ahmadiyya?  Dude, these folks are not thought of as true Muslims; they're viewed as heretics and persecuted pretty much wherever they go.  I wouldn't quote them.  Ever.  Srsly.  
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #433 on: May 01, 2013, 11:21:33 PM »

Actually, his information of the Islam of his day is quite informed. That he didn't know the Islam institutionalized a century after his death-the one we are stuck with now-isn't his fault.  Even today, for instance, the names of the Surahs differ and have variants, and St. John names "the Table" and other names still used, along with stories from its contents.

Can you say little more about this. Very broadly if you want. Are you talking a change in terms of theology, as a self-aware polity, or Huh??
All of the above.  Religious authority, for instance, was more like the Shi'ite imam, with the caliph being able to claim to rule by the divine right of kings (or caliphs) and make law. (a good book on this is "God's Caliph" by Crone and Hinds)  With the discrediting of the caliphate to settle dogma with the failure of the Mihna, and the adoption of the pious opposition's program, the madhhabs as we know them today were more or less formalized during the course of the third Islamic century (a good book on this is Schacht's work "Origins of Muslim Jurisprudence."  Unfortunately, unlike the easy and enjoyable read of "God's Caliph," Schacht's book is as exciting as reading through Compiled Statutes, or even less).  The identification of the Sunnah with Muhammad's saying wasn't solidified until after al-Shafi'i (767 — 820 AD/ 150 — 204 AH).  The final redaction of the Quran took place around the same time, as did the classic expositions of Islamic theology, and the canonical collections of Hadith.

So it isn't really until c. 850 that the institutions of Islam and its sources took the form we know them now.  
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:31:04 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #434 on: May 01, 2013, 11:22:41 PM »

Easter as a name derives from a pagan term (the same Germanic root-word that gives us Oestrogen)

Actually not:

Quote
oestrus , estrus or estrum
 
— n
   a regularly occurring period of sexual receptivity in most female mammals, except humans, during which ovulation occurs and copulation can take place; heat
 
[from Latin oestrus  gadfly, hence frenzy, from Greek oistros ]

Oestrum ≠ Eostra.


You are correct about the root word of Oestrogen.

However Easter’s association with paganism owing to the word’s Germanic (pagan) origins is still argued.
Only among the English and Germans, because they are the only ones who do not have a word derived from Pascha.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #435 on: May 01, 2013, 11:24:18 PM »




Only among the English and Germans, because they are the only ones who do not have a word derived from Pascha.

Well naturally those who don't call it Easter don't make arguments that associate it with the Germanic pagan origins of the word, 'cause they don't use it
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:25:19 PM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #436 on: May 01, 2013, 11:26:07 PM »

Actually, his information of the Islam of his day is quite informed. That he didn't know the Islam institutionalized a century after his death-the one we are stuck with now-isn't his fault.  Even today, for instance, the names of the Surahs differ and have variants, and St. John names "the Table" and other names still used, along with stories from its contents.

Can you say little more about this. Very broadly if you want. Are you talking a change in terms of theology, as a self-aware polity, or Huh??
All of the above.  Religious authority, for instance, was more like the Shi'ite imam, with the caliph being able to claim to rule by the divine right of kings (or caliphs) and make law. (a good book on this is "God's Caliph" by Crone and Hinds)  With the discrediting of the caliphate to settle dogma with the failure of the Mihna, and the adoption of the pious opposition's program, the madhhabs as we know them today were more or less formalized during the course of the third Islamic century (a good book on this is Schacht's work "Origins of Muslim Jurisprudence."  Unfortunately like the easy and enjoyable read of "God's Caliph" Schacht's book is as exciting as reading through Compiled Statutes, or even less).  The identification of the Sunnah with Muhammad's saying wasn't solidified until after al-Shafi'i (767 — 820 AD/ 150 — 204 AH).  The final redaction of the Quran took place around the same time, as did the classic expositions of Islamic theology, and the canonical collections of Hadith.

So it isn't really until c. 850 that the institutions of Islam and its sources took the form we know them now.  

When was the Koran set? I understand that one of the earlier leaders asked for the variations to be destroyed
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,168



« Reply #437 on: May 01, 2013, 11:48:00 PM »

This has nothing to do with the last few comments, but I wanted to post some information from a Pew Research studyhttp://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/30/five-takeaways-from-pews-comprehensive-study-on-islam/?hpt=hp_t5
Logged
Cantor Krishnich
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Pan-Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 545


Mar Ahmed the Daftadar


« Reply #438 on: May 02, 2013, 02:05:33 AM »

Oh no... we're going to have that discussion again. Muslims insist Allah is not Al-lah for some reason, but some totally special name that defies Arabic grammar.

I think that Moslems have a right to change the meaning.

It MAY have referred to 'the god' but if it’s now synonymous with their one god and therefore Allah is a better rendition than al-Lah, then so be it.

Languages change.


However that pic, is the person an "Arab" simply because they speak Arabic?

I speak English. I am not English

Allah is pronounced the same ways whether it is pronounced by a Christian or a Muslim or the Jewish groups who use Arabic.

And yes, the faithful of the Byzantine-rite Antiochian Orthodox Church are Levant Arabs with a very small Syriac community under their jurisdiction. His Beatitude is most certainly Arab. Most of the Byzantine-rite (Orthodox and Melkite) and Latin-rite Christians in the Middle East are Arabs. The Syriacs, Maronites, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Armenians, and Copts are not Arabs but of course there are some in their churches also.
Logged

Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #439 on: May 02, 2013, 03:40:31 AM »

Only among the English and Germans, because they are the only ones who do not have a word derived from Pascha.

Not the only ones.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,156


« Reply #440 on: May 02, 2013, 03:41:24 AM »


Very interesting response.  Thanks for adding it.  I never had heard of Islam as the middle ground between the heart of Christianity and the law of Judaism.

Islam is even more legalistic than is Judaism
Not even close, but nice try.

This was one of Christ's main complaints about the Pharisees and the Jewish religious leaders of his time.

Not much has changed since then, as a matter of fact, it's became worse
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
john_mo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 762



« Reply #441 on: May 02, 2013, 05:20:26 AM »

I found out that Islam has a teaching that each person has two angels, one on each shoulder.  The one on the right records their good deeds, and the one on the left records their bad deeds.  This tradition is called Kiraman Katibin.

I can't exactly explain why, but this idea bothers me.

Hollywood has done that ad nauseam.



Yes, I think that's it.  It smacks of a folk tradition rather than an understanding of a merciful God.  Like something children would learn in a bad Sunday school lesson.

Not to mention:
If Satan is up my nose, that would explain how congested I felt this morning. Also, the childhood rhyme about hoses. Smiley

(1) Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.  (Book #002, Hadith #0462)

Also;

(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night."  (Book #54, Hadith #516)


There's this site for searching Hadith:
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php

I hope we don't have anything like this in Orthodoxy.  This is just bad.
Logged

Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

—G.K. Chesterton
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #442 on: May 02, 2013, 05:27:22 AM »

Yes, I think that's it.  It smacks of a folk tradition rather than an understanding of a merciful God.  Like something children would learn in a bad Sunday school lesson.
1 Corinthians 3:2 covers this; some can only operate at the level of children

I hope we don't have anything like this in Orthodoxy.  This is just bad.

Me too
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #443 on: May 02, 2013, 06:21:15 PM »

I meant to reference these better

(1) Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.  (Book #002, Hadith #0462)

Is from the Muslim collection

(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night."  (Book #54, Hadith #516)
and this is in Bukhari translation
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
essene19
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Islam
Posts: 45


« Reply #444 on: May 02, 2013, 08:41:19 PM »

Going to websites and simply paraphrasing specific claims about Islam, and randomly quoting hadiths, is not research - it is elementary information gathering at best.

Real research requires comprehensive analysis and investigation, and when it comes to the hadiths, one must consider the following: what is the overall consensus of the Muslim scholars on these hadiths? Their authenticity? Their interpretations? And the rulings to be derived, IF ANY, from such hadiths?

And to be a recognized, legit scholar in the Muslim world, at least according to Sunni norms, one must have at least the following credentials (and here, I'm not talking about people who attend 4 year Shariah colleges in a Middle Eastern country, I'm talking about actual scholars who can trace their chain of teachers all the way back to the companions and the Prophet himself):

- Mastery of Classical Arabic
- At most times, memorization of the entire Quran, including preferably its different qiraat (readings/recitations) - I believe there are 7-10 different qiraat of the Qur'an.  Many Muslims actually don't know this fact and stumble when they learn about it from some Christian missionaries.
- A solid grounding in and understanding of pre-Islamic Arab poetry
- Memorized thousands of hadith and their chains of transmission
- Has a recognized ijaza (in modern day parlance, this term would mean certificate, but "permission to teach" would be more accurate to convey from the meaning) from several scholars to teach specific texts
- Knowledge of the asbab al-nuzul - the reasons/circumstances of the revelations of the verses and the Qur'an, and their context

That's just to name a few.

The hadiths you posted about Satan, urine, etc I had never even seen before or ever heard mentioned by scholars I've come across before, so I would have to do some research on it myself.  But since the ideas presented therein seem so foreign to me and those I know, I am confident that they have no real basis in the faith.

What some here are doing are what the secular humanists do when they take the Bible and other religious sources and mutilate them left and right, with no consideration whatsoever of the intellectual traditions and commentaries that have accumulated over such texts.

I also addressed in one of the earliest posts regarding the problematic nature of hadiths for lay believers - the earliest scholars of Islam believed that the books of hadith should only be reference sources for properly trained people, as those without the prerequisite knowledge would begin to quote and interpret things according to their own preconceived notions, thereby creating all kinds of havoc (Imam Malik ibn Anas was adamant about how hadith books, and even the Quran, should not fall into the wrong hands)  It is a recognized fact that even approaching the Quran the wrong way can lead to misguidance, at times dangerous, if not severe.  And what we see now with Islam is a byproduct of unqualified people diving into these pre-modern texts they have no business diving into and passing off their own modern interpretations.  You'll see this with many Islamists in the political realm; one obvious example of this is Egypt.  Morsi and many like him are all engineers; they're not trained in the tradition.

And in the 20th century, as some Muslim countries attempted to modernize, the education system went through major changes.  Centuries ago, the cream of the crop would study religion and the religious law.  However, with the advent of modernization (and subject placement testing), the smartest students get sent to engineering or medical school, while the lowest on the totem pole get sent to religious studies.  To say that this will cause problems is an understatement.

Anyway, if anyone really does have serious questions about Islam that they would like to discuss, it would be better to send me a PM, and I'll try my best to answer any such questions.  Going back and forth in certain threads with certain individuals has not led to anything constructive.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:44:34 PM by essene19 » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #445 on: May 02, 2013, 11:20:52 PM »

Actually, his information of the Islam of his day is quite informed. That he didn't know the Islam institutionalized a century after his death-the one we are stuck with now-isn't his fault.  Even today, for instance, the names of the Surahs differ and have variants, and St. John names "the Table" and other names still used, along with stories from its contents.

Can you say little more about this. Very broadly if you want. Are you talking a change in terms of theology, as a self-aware polity, or Huh??
All of the above.  Religious authority, for instance, was more like the Shi'ite imam, with the caliph being able to claim to rule by the divine right of kings (or caliphs) and make law. (a good book on this is "God's Caliph" by Crone and Hinds)  With the discrediting of the caliphate to settle dogma with the failure of the Mihna, and the adoption of the pious opposition's program, the madhhabs as we know them today were more or less formalized during the course of the third Islamic century (a good book on this is Schacht's work "Origins of Muslim Jurisprudence."  Unfortunately like the easy and enjoyable read of "God's Caliph" Schacht's book is as exciting as reading through Compiled Statutes, or even less).  The identification of the Sunnah with Muhammad's saying wasn't solidified until after al-Shafi'i (767 — 820 AD/ 150 — 204 AH).  The final redaction of the Quran took place around the same time, as did the classic expositions of Islamic theology, and the canonical collections of Hadith.

So it isn't really until c. 850 that the institutions of Islam and its sources took the form we know them now.  

When was the Koran set? I understand that one of the earlier leaders asked for the variations to be destroyed
That is usually attributed to 'Uthman, but it seems to have happened instead under his relatives the Umayyid caliphs during the Second Fitna/Civil War around 700, to judge by the common links in the transmission of the story.  Before then we have no Quranic material, although we have a fair amount of Muslim material, and the non-Muslim sources speak of a holy book of the Muslims only after that time.  It cannot be said to be finally redacted until Ibn Mujahid codified its readings around 900.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #446 on: May 02, 2013, 11:53:20 PM »

Going to websites and simply paraphrasing specific claims about Islam, and randomly quoting hadiths, is not research - it is elementary information gathering at best.
Thank goodness I also cited Islamic sites of Islamic experts giving their opinions too.

I also noted how apologists for Islam don't deal with that. Like your post now...

Anything but dealing with those points; even to the point of re-working posts to suggesting that they're just random quotes
Real research requires comprehensive analysis and investigation, and when it comes to the hadiths, one must consider the following: what is the overall consensus of the Muslim scholars on these hadiths? Their authenticity? Their interpretations? And the rulings to be derived, IF ANY, from such hadiths?
I take it you read classical Hebrew and (Koine) Greek before examining scriptures?


Going back and forth in certain threads with certain individuals has not led to anything constructive.
What's constructive is a demonstration to Christians and others interested in the topic that Islam cannot deal with rational criticism. Everything but dealing with the points raised happens.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 11:54:35 PM by montalban » Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #447 on: May 02, 2013, 11:56:08 PM »


That is usually attributed to 'Uthman, but it seems to have happened instead under his relatives the Umayyid caliphs during the Second Fitna/Civil War around 700, to judge by the common links in the transmission of the story.  Before then we have no Quranic material, although we have a fair amount of Muslim material, and the non-Muslim sources speak of a holy book of the Muslims only after that time.  It cannot be said to be finally redacted until Ibn Mujahid codified its readings around 900.

Do you know of any 'rouge' copies out that that might have survived?

I heard that there's a quote carved out on a mosque that doesn't exist in that form in the Koran, proving that the words were not 'set in stone' in the beginning
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #448 on: May 03, 2013, 12:10:45 AM »

The hadiths you posted about Satan, urine, etc I had never even seen before or ever heard mentioned by scholars I've come across before, so I would have to do some research on it myself.  But since the ideas presented therein seem so foreign to me and those I know, I am confident that they have no real basis in the faith.
Ah, it’s me you’re addressing. I wasn’t sure, because you didn’t quote me.

The idea that you’ve not come across these Hadith before is not surprising given the hugeness of the Hadith collections.

Part of Islamic ablutions involves cleaning out the nose (Wud’u). You may now know the reason for it.
What some here are doing are what the secular humanists do when they take the Bible and other religious sources and mutilate them left and right, with no consideration whatsoever of the intellectual traditions and commentaries that have accumulated over such texts.
There’s very little lee-way for manipulation in a verse that says “Clean out your nose because Satan is in there”
I also addressed in one of the earliest posts regarding the problematic nature of hadiths for lay believers - the earliest scholars of Islam believed that the books of hadith should only be reference sources for properly trained people, as those without the prerequisite knowledge would begin to quote and interpret things according to their own preconceived notions, thereby creating all kinds of havoc (Imam Malik ibn Anas was adamant about how hadith books, and even the Quran, should not fall into the wrong hands)  It is a recognized fact that even approaching the Quran the wrong way can lead to misguidance, at times dangerous, if not severe.  And what we see now with Islam is a byproduct of unqualified people diving into these pre-modern texts they have no business diving into and passing off their own modern interpretations.  You'll see this with many Islamists in the political realm; one obvious example of this is Egypt.  Morsi and many like him are all engineers; they're not trained in the tradition.
That doesn’t mean you don’t clean out your nose with water… Wud’u

What do you think about this site…?
http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/hygiene.php

They quote the same Hadith I do as part of Islam’s ‘scrupulous’ rules regarding hygiene

Also, this Islamic site

“Muslim scholars explain that the nose is one of the ways to one’s mind and thoughts. Satan tries to put his ideas and suggestions into the mind of a person during his sleep as well. The best cure is that after waking up one should clean one’s nose, make ablution for Prayers and seek God’s protection”
http://www.islamic-shield.com/2007/11/does-satan-stay-in-your-nose-overnight.html

I research Islamic opinion on these matters. It’s disdainful for some to re-work this into ‘random quotes’ or ‘googled quotes’ etc.

I study history and religion.

If you can deal with these things, we can have discussion
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,822



« Reply #449 on: May 03, 2013, 01:02:20 AM »


That is usually attributed to 'Uthman, but it seems to have happened instead under his relatives the Umayyid caliphs during the Second Fitna/Civil War around 700, to judge by the common links in the transmission of the story.  Before then we have no Quranic material, although we have a fair amount of Muslim material, and the non-Muslim sources speak of a holy book of the Muslims only after that time.  It cannot be said to be finally redacted until Ibn Mujahid codified its readings around 900.

Do you know of any 'rouge' copies out that that might have survived?

I heard that there's a quote carved out on a mosque that doesn't exist in that form in the Koran, proving that the words were not 'set in stone' in the beginning
You are probably thinking of the inscriptions in the Dome of the Rock.

There was a pile of early Qurans found in the Sana' mosque from the second hijri century, which do not match the texts.  There was even an article on them in the Atlantic a decade ago IIRC.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.188 seconds with 72 queries.