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Author Topic: What Attracts Westerners to Islam?  (Read 9685 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: April 29, 2013, 08:01:45 PM »

Another thing and this is kind of ironic, is that many Western men want to find a pure or traditionally minded woman that he would actually like to settle down and have a family with and those are some slim pickins these days with our secular minded, wild-eyed party girls here in the West these days.
I don't think that this is true. There are a whole lot of wonderful, decent, beautiful, young ladies out there who would make fantastic wives for the right man. 

What I'm looking for in a lady is a poor sense of smell

 Grin
All I would look for in a lady is common sense.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 08:02:07 PM by pmpn8rGPT » Logged

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« Reply #316 on: April 29, 2013, 08:09:14 PM »

Quote
Yet the Qur'an is silent on why the perfectly created man was later condemned to frailty and death.

Are you talking about Jesus or Adam?

Quote
The writer of the Qur'an copied the tenet of Final Judgment from Christianity and laid emphasis on this doctrine because this was one of the major tenets that Muhammad's polytheist tribe and Meccan paganism denied./quote]

Pure conjecture.

Quote
Yet Muslims cannot explain why in the Qur'an only Jesus, of all the prophets, was named the Messiah, born without a father, performed several miracles, imitated Elohim's act of creation, was called the Word of Elohim, was taken up to Elohim.

This is all affirmed by the Quran and I agree that it has been a neglected subject by Muslim scholars.

[quote
No Old Testament prophet had a child bride though and no Old Testament prophet considered himself sinless and perfect in morality. Actually, the Tanakh relates how David fell into sin and was punished by Elohim.

What a weak argument.  I already addressed the issue of Aisha in another thread.

As for being sinless and perfect, Muhammad himself never made such a claim - what his followers in later generations did is a different story.  Nothing Muhammad did can be compared to what the Old Testament describes about Lot and his daughters.

Quote
These traditional teachings were taken from Christianity. They cannot be found in the Qur'an, the main and primary authoritative text of Islam.

Authentic sayings of Muhammad, especially in the realm of prophecy, are authoritative.

Quote
The Quranic verse DOES talk of an apparition though (So it seemed to them). This is why the substitution theory is in line with the Qur'an verse overtly denying that Jesus died on the cross and claming that He was taken up to heaven.

Or so it seemed to them, Or "so it appeared to them" can be interpreted a whole myriad of ways.  Muslim scholars just took that verse and ran with it to fit their own view.  As I mentioned before, I believe that the Quran is purposefully ambiguous about this, and I think it is a part of God's larger plan.

Quote
That means the Qur'an verse quoted by Montalban does not exist in your personal Qur'an.

I also addressed that verse you're speaking of in an older thread.  Go look it up, or don't bother.  It doesn't matter. Montelban does not have theauthority to teach me my religion.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 08:10:08 PM by essene19 » Logged
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« Reply #317 on: April 29, 2013, 08:24:54 PM »

Quote
Yet the Qur'an is silent on why the perfectly created man was later condemned to frailty and death.

Are you talking about Jesus or Adam?

Quote
The writer of the Qur'an copied the tenet of Final Judgment from Christianity and laid emphasis on this doctrine because this was one of the major tenets that Muhammad's polytheist tribe and Meccan paganism denied./quote]

Pure conjecture.

Quote
Yet Muslims cannot explain why in the Qur'an only Jesus, of all the prophets, was named the Messiah, born without a father, performed several miracles, imitated Elohim's act of creation, was called the Word of Elohim, was taken up to Elohim.

This is all affirmed by the Quran and I agree that it has been a neglected subject by Muslim scholars.

[quote
No Old Testament prophet had a child bride though and no Old Testament prophet considered himself sinless and perfect in morality. Actually, the Tanakh relates how David fell into sin and was punished by Elohim.

What a weak argument.  I already addressed the issue of Aisha in another thread.
Where?

The essence of your reply then is that you can't be bothered replying?

Great example of irony

« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 08:26:19 PM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #318 on: April 29, 2013, 08:29:27 PM »

Quote
Yet the Qur'an is silent on why the perfectly created man was later condemned to frailty and death.

Are you talking about Jesus or Adam?

Quote
The writer of the Qur'an copied the tenet of Final Judgment from Christianity and laid emphasis on this doctrine because this was one of the major tenets that Muhammad's polytheist tribe and Meccan paganism denied./quote]

Pure conjecture.

Quote
Yet Muslims cannot explain why in the Qur'an only Jesus, of all the prophets, was named the Messiah, born without a father, performed several miracles, imitated Elohim's act of creation, was called the Word of Elohim, was taken up to Elohim.

This is all affirmed by the Quran and I agree that it has been a neglected subject by Muslim scholars.

[quote
No Old Testament prophet had a child bride though and no Old Testament prophet considered himself sinless and perfect in morality. Actually, the Tanakh relates how David fell into sin and was punished by Elohim.

What a weak argument.  I already addressed the issue of Aisha in another thread.

Where?

Here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47229.450.html

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« Reply #319 on: April 29, 2013, 10:11:22 PM »

The main attraction to Islam for Westerners, I think, is disillusionment with Western Christianity and the spiritual void that now exists in the West.  Besides Islam's basic structure (the five daily prayers, Ramadan fasting, etc), Islam provides clear and cogent answers as to the purpose of life, and why man is here.  The constant emphasis on death and the Hereafter, the final Judgment, really hits the home the fact that life here on Earth is finite and transitory.  Life is a gift, and you should use it well, because what you do here will determine your Eternal Life.

One of the reasons why I was attracted to the Eastern Christian tradition is that it has that same emphasis on the Hereafter and the remembrance of death that Islam has, and many of the spiritual practices of the Eastern Christian tradition have the same intention to purify the heart of the believer.  This is something that I found to be very lacking in the Western tradition, which is too modernized and has bent over backwards to secular modes of thinking.

As for the simplicity of Islam's doctrine being an attractive option, I agree.  Even Christian theologians admit that the Trinity is not easy to understand - Islam just makes the theology all the more simpler.  A lot of former Christians who come to Islam like the idea that they can keep Jesus in a stable religious structure without all the Trinitarian ideas.

The reason why I think some Christians have problems with Muhammad is really for one reason only: a lot of his morality (from what we read in the biographical accounts, many of which were written 200 years after his death) seems outdated, especially after the coming of Christ.  Otherwise, I don't think there is much separating him from the Old Testament prophets.  It's because that he came after Jesus that his teachings seem a bit "off" to the outsider.  Shariah law is just a modified form of the Mosaic law - Islam tries to be the middle ground between the heart of Christianity and the law of Judaism.

As for the role of Jesus in Islam, I think this is something that Muslims have ignored to their own detriment.  There is a lot more to Jesus, at least according to the Quranic teaching, than meets the eye.  After all, Muslims believe that it is Jesus who will return at the End of Time to kill the Anti-Christ, not any other prophet.  Muslim scholars have tried to come up with all kinds of reasons as to why specifically Jesus would come back in order to satisfy certain theological dilemmas, but all of their expectations fall short.

The idea that someone else died on the cross and Jesus escaped the crucifixion is NOT a Quranic idea or an idea that you will find in an authentic, sound hadith.  It's a conjectural claim that commentators have grafted onto the verse for centuries and taken for granted.  I believe that the Quran's is purposefully ambiguous regarding the crucifixion and what really happened.

And montalban, your statement about Muslims not being able to have non-Muslims as close friends is 100% false.

Very interesting response.  Thanks for adding it.  I never had heard of Islam as the middle ground between the heart of Christianity and the law of Judaism.
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« Reply #320 on: April 30, 2013, 12:38:07 AM »

Quote
Yet the Qur'an is silent on why the perfectly created man was later condemned to frailty and death.

Are you talking about Jesus or Adam?

Quote
The writer of the Qur'an copied the tenet of Final Judgment from Christianity and laid emphasis on this doctrine because this was one of the major tenets that Muhammad's polytheist tribe and Meccan paganism denied./quote]

Pure conjecture.

Quote
Yet Muslims cannot explain why in the Qur'an only Jesus, of all the prophets, was named the Messiah, born without a father, performed several miracles, imitated Elohim's act of creation, was called the Word of Elohim, was taken up to Elohim.

This is all affirmed by the Quran and I agree that it has been a neglected subject by Muslim scholars.

[quote
No Old Testament prophet had a child bride though and no Old Testament prophet considered himself sinless and perfect in morality. Actually, the Tanakh relates how David fell into sin and was punished by Elohim.

What a weak argument.  I already addressed the issue of Aisha in another thread.

Where?

Here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47229.450.html



All I see is Orthonorm apologising for Aisha’s young age with these types of poorly constructed arguments.


By the logic used by the anti-Muslimists, the Virgin Mary's marriage was consummated at age 12.

Do you agree with that? There are "Christian" sources that can back that up.
This is false. The only “Christian” source says she was married at 14. Not 12. Secondly even Moslems claim that she didn’t have sex then! They have her as a virgin at Jesus’ conception too
The scholarship around the hadith is complex, stupidly so. But no, no Muslim is going to tell you Mohamed had sex with a six year old.

He may not have heard of this…

This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about cAishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah's age out to as far as "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim! Based on the research that I've done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah's age was "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of the marriage. This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . ."
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html


Only in the 1800s did an Indian Moslem decide to 'review' this issue in order to offer up an apology to his British friends.

Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan[/b]
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm#1



MAULANA MUHAMMAD ALI, the author cited by The_true_path lived in the late 1800s. He was a modernist; educated in Britain.
"His editorials played a critical role in molding the political outlook of modern India. "
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mmali.htm

As such he was an apologist for Islam; wishing to make it more palatable to his western educated audience. This was his raison d'etre, to provide a false idea of Islam, based on recent conjecture.



"It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage"
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

Over the history of the majority of Islam the consistent belief is that she was nine years old when the marriage was consummated
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« Reply #321 on: April 30, 2013, 01:35:32 AM »


Very interesting response.  Thanks for adding it.  I never had heard of Islam as the middle ground between the heart of Christianity and the law of Judaism.

Islam is even more legalistic than is Judaism
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« Reply #322 on: April 30, 2013, 01:39:51 AM »

Islam is founded by a man who had some idea of Christianity; through heretics.

He ordered the murder of those who opposed him, even for some who'd merely written witty verses mocking him.

He oversaw the murder of PoWs

He married a child and consummated that marriage when that child was only nine years old.

Muhammed offered nothing but a false path.

Isalm cannot withstand the light of examination.

The 'ideal' Islamic schools are where you learn the Koran by rote. It's not by critical thinking, but recitation that Islamic scholars are born
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« Reply #323 on: April 30, 2013, 03:16:07 AM »

But, I still believe the majority of women who wear hijab are doing it for spiritual, cultural and modesty reasons nto just because they don't want to be raped. Hell that can happen right here in America by non-Muslims. And most assuredly does.

yes this is definitely one of the main reasons for the hijab

protection from jinns, demons, ...etc.
Are you serious?

Do they really wear headcoverings as some kind of superstitious garb to ward off invisible boogey-men?

What I meant by "spiritual" was was to avoid temptation or being an accesory to another's sin of lust.
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« Reply #324 on: April 30, 2013, 03:16:07 AM »

I don't see what the big problem is with Muslim women practicing a form of modesty by wearing hijab ( which is optional in most of Islam from what I've researched), I believe that more "christian" women could learn a thing or two from Moslems about modesty these days, but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Excepting that it's not just a matter of modesty...
That's whay YOU say......

Three times a charm, hey?
Cheesy

Rather than repost my evidence (I've posted it once, then reposted it), I'd like to point out that I cited several Islamic clerics, including two in this wonderful modern western nation; Australia
Speaking of rape, wasn't your wonderful, modern nation founded as a penal colony for criminals within the Commonwealth?

Not that it's relevant to this discussion but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

You're right, not relevent, and you still making 'just-so' statements and ignoring the evidence I presented several times.
I believe I addressed your "evidence" enough as have the Moslem posters.

They, as well as I believe your sources are suspect.

And you presenting them doesn't make your case any stronger.
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« Reply #325 on: April 30, 2013, 06:38:17 AM »


I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.
You are of coarse, correct.  A rose by any other name is still a rose.
But it's not a rose! Your analogy would be that a rose is a flower therefore all flowers are roses.

A hijab is a head covering for women. Not all head coverings for women are hijabs.

The difference is in their purpose, and the rationale behind their use.


I've given other examples. Whilst a skirt is a dress, a kilt is not. They look the same, have a function similar; in covering the groin, but they are not the same.



Bob Carey wears a pink tutu to raise money for breast cancer which his wife Linda Lancaster-Carey is battling. Bob, a photograher, is publishing a book of photos of him posing in various locations in the pink tutu.






This is just so wrong on so many levels, even if the guy's heart is in the right place.

I don't see how feminizing a man helps bring awareness to a dreaded disease like Cancer, leave it to "men" in the West these days to go along with an idea like that. As a matter of fact, they've been trying to emasculate men for some time now by encouraging them to wear women's clothing for one reason or another, especially in Hollywood.

Dave Chappelle (who is Muslim BTW) gives an excellent example of this interview on the OWS here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWPRDu7l_EY

I don't see what the big problem is with Muslim women practicing a form of modesty by wearing hijab ( which is optional in most of Islam from what I've researched), I believe that more "christian" women could learn a thing or two from Moslems about modesty these days, but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

What is masculine in one culture may not be in another.  His form is odd, which draws attention and makes a point beyond himself, which is the purpose of it.  Sometimes women dress, or don't dress to convey a message to people around them, like wearing hijab or niqab or burka in a western country.

I know one young woman who will wear hijab and carry mace to avoid harassment on public transport.  Not for religious reasons at all.  I once brought her to church with me and the Bulgarian lady thought I had given a Russian girl a ride to church.  I think it is sad she feels compelled to do that because some men choose to not control themselves.

I know another woman whose husband is stationed in the middle east, and can't wait to get to Israel to get away from being assaulted everywhere she goes, so covering isn't automatic protection from unwanted advances and abuse.   There is probably more of it in those countries than here.   She now loathes any Arabic culture.

The other difference is Orthodox women may (or may not) cover their head in church, but they aren't required to cover their head at all times, and in free countries there is no religious police who will arrest them for not dressing correctly inside or outside church. 

Some say Greek women left off covering their heads after the Ottoman yoke to show that Greek women are free in Christ.   Because of blood tax they would hide their faces.

When I see an Orthodox nun, I see a person who has freely chosen to take up a specific form of prayer life.  When I see women on the streets dressed like nuns, to me, they seem to be playing at being holy.   They've taken on the form, or trappings, but not the sacrifice of what a nun does.  To me, it looks like false piety parading itself around in cultural guise.  But that is because I am more accustomed to seeing nuns than women in full hijab.  I would probably have different perceptions had I grown up in a different culture, one that valued tribal culture more than individual freedom.

Modesty is all fine and dandy, but it's probably not good to try to impose one's personal dress code on another, particularly a country that values freedom.    And having all the women dress the same looks like a cult.  I've never been to a church where every looks so much the same as the photo posted several pages back.  It was a little startling, to be honest.  I really don't want to be in a cult.  I didn't think I had joined a cult, but a church that believes Christ is the head of the Church.  And He loved the sinful woman who wept at his feet.  It will not serve to spread the Gospel to expect women to conform to some outdated mode of dress from a foreign culture.  There are plenty of cults out there, but the Orthodox church shouldn't be one of them.  And women's checks cash just the same when they tithe.

If a person can't afford the clothes that everyone else wears, or doesn't know how to sew that particular piece of clothing, that shouldn't bar them from church.  I don't think God cares that much about it.  He told us not to worry about what we wear.  They way I understand it is that it is better to not draw attention to one self with clothing in order to not distract others, but some are more easily distracted than others.  How far are we to go in catering to the other's weakness and vice?  To the point where a woman becomes a virtual prisoner in her home, that she has vitamin D deficiency from lack of light, that she can never go out without the company of a male relative, so if there are no male relatives, she will sit home and die?

I try to not focus so much on what people choose to wear.  If a young lady comes to church in fairly revealing clothes, I don't want to be bothered with judgmental thoughts about her style of dress.  Many young women dress to attract a possible husband, and do in fact eventually marry.  So, at least in some cases, men appreciate a woman who makes an effort to wear stylish flattering clothes, and don't feel threatened by it.   And he may even be a bit disappointed when she begins to dress in more practical ways as she becomes a mother.
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« Reply #326 on: April 30, 2013, 07:20:58 AM »

I don't see what the big problem is with Muslim women practicing a form of modesty by wearing hijab ( which is optional in most of Islam from what I've researched), I believe that more "christian" women could learn a thing or two from Moslems about modesty these days, but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Excepting that it's not just a matter of modesty...
That's whay YOU say......

Three times a charm, hey?
Cheesy

Rather than repost my evidence (I've posted it once, then reposted it), I'd like to point out that I cited several Islamic clerics, including two in this wonderful modern western nation; Australia
Speaking of rape, wasn't your wonderful, modern nation founded as a penal colony for criminals within the Commonwealth?

Not that it's relevant to this discussion but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

You're right, not relevent, and you still making 'just-so' statements and ignoring the evidence I presented several times.
I believe I addressed your "evidence" enough as have the Moslem posters.

They, as well as I believe your sources are suspect.

And you presenting them doesn't make your case any stronger.

Yes, I noted that you believe your 'just-so' retort equals a considered evidenced post. Your series of "no it's not" responses are what you believe to be an 'addressing of my posts'. Wink

Ironically you posted one response which supposed that I had quoted Jack Chick - when I've constantly posted from Islamic sources.

Suspecting Islamic sources is novel!

That's the amazing thing.

I have posted Islamic sources. One of the posters speculated that to be "Jack Chick". You however simply "suspect" them. That's addressing them alright!

You have this non-engagement discussion in common with one Moslem poster, at least.
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« Reply #327 on: April 30, 2013, 07:49:46 AM »

Quote
He ordered the murder of those who opposed him, even for some who'd merely written witty verses mocking him.

Reminds me of that prophet/king David from the Hebrew bible that had one of his most loyal generals killed in battle so he could continue his adulterous affair with his wife whom he impregnated back at the palace while this same general was out fighting his battles.

Some of the things I read about David were utterly despicable, this man "after God's own heart". (Yea, I know, he repented)

Compared to the lives of some of those O.T. characters, Mohamed appears to be a saint.

But God uses men in all their failings to bring about his will in the end I guess.
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« Reply #328 on: April 30, 2013, 08:29:20 AM »

Quote
He ordered the murder of those who opposed him, even for some who'd merely written witty verses mocking him.

Reminds me of that prophet/king David from the Hebrew bible that had one of his most loyal generals killed in battle so he could continue his adulterous affair with his wife whom he impregnated back at the palace while this same general was out fighting his battles.

Some of the things I read about David were utterly despicable, this man "after God's own heart". (Yea, I know, he repented)

Compared to the lives of some of those O.T. characters, Mohamed appears to be a saint.

But God uses men in all their failings to bring about his will in the end I guess.

Thanks for the tu quoque apology for Islam.

Hey, look, I've presented evidence which you've just waved away dismissively

When you're not giving your 'just-so' statements you offer logical fallacy.

However I'm very interested in discussion and even though you're diverting attention away from Islam, if that's the kind of conversation you want, I'm happy to oblige

So let's have a look at what you just wrote.

David - he did bad things. Correct. Was he sorry? Yes

Muhammed - he did bad things. Was he sorry? No evidence. You acknowledge David repented and are silent on Muhammed (which is odd, because given the topic's about Islam I'd have thought you'd want to discuss him)

However most importantly is this comparison

David - is his bad behaviour an example for Christians to follow today? No

Unless you can find me any evidence where it says "Go marry your best friends wife, and have him stand up in the front of battle next time, so he's first killed"

Muhammed - is his bad behaviour an example for Moslems to follow today? Yes. He's give as the best example of man

I offer evidence about Muhammed but you don't address that.

That's the way Islamic apologetics has always worked. I've noted that Islam cannot stand the light of scrutiny - and tu quque (being a diversion) is part of this... whether that's your intent, or not.

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« Reply #329 on: April 30, 2013, 08:34:27 AM »

I mentioned lying for Islam as a legitimate tactic in that faith.

This stems from Muhammed's example where he wanted a person murdered in order to strike terror into the hearts of the community.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59:
Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi)
 
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
 
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
 
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."

After this murder the Jews were struck with terror, and realised that Muhammed would resort to force…
"When the Jews learned about the death of their tyrant, Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf, they were scared and
even their stonelike hearts were in the grip of inexpressible panic. They realized that the Messenger
of Allâh (Peace be upon him) would thenceforth never hesitate to use force when good words and
admonition failed. They remained silent and resigned, and faked adherence to covenants."
“The Sealed Nectar” 111.

One Moslem has complained about my sourcing of Sunni material - I have done this because the vast majority of Moslems are Sunni. However even in Shi'a they have circumstances for lying...

Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, provides the following commentary:
 Telling of a lie is a grave sin but a Muslim is permitted to tell a lie in some exceptional cases, and this permission is given especially on three occasions: in case of battle for bringing reconciliation amongst the hostile Muslims and for bringing reconciliation between the husband and the wife.
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/
(This is a Shi'a site – Shi’a are not the majority of Moslems, but mainly located in Iran)

The majority of Moslems are Sunni. Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah#Sunni_view

The god of Islam himself deceives people (they believe this happened when he caused the Jews to only think they'd killed Jesus Christ.)

AN-NISA (WOMEN)
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

 
Some more modern commentators say that there's nothing firm here about a substitution, however who then 'caused it to appear' that Jesus had been killed; only Allah could have done this.

Thus their own god tricks people!


Note, none of these sources are "Jack Chick" Wink
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 08:39:46 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #330 on: April 30, 2013, 08:38:23 AM »

Islamic holy books have a lot to say on a number of issues, from the evil behind yawning to the goodness of drinking camel urine...

What about yawning?
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 509:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you (during the act of yawning) should say: 'Ha', Satan will laugh at him."


What about falling or shooting stars or just stars, in general?
Stars are missiles that God uses to hit the devils.
Mohammed said, "The creation of stars is for three purposes, i.e., as decoration of the sky, as missiles to hit the devils, and as signs to guide travelers." "Sahih Bukhari"Vol. 2:158

What about camel's urine? Is it healthy? Drinking camel's urine will make you healthy...
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 590:
Narrated Anas:
The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron.
 
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 623:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Some people from the tribes of 'Ukl and 'Uraina came to Allah's Apostle and embraced Islam and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are owners of livestock and have never been farmers," and they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So Allah's Apostle ordered that they be given some camels and a shepherd, and ordered them to go out with those camels and drink their milk and urine. So they set out, but when they reached a place called Al-Harra, they reverted to disbelief after their conversion to Islam, killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When this news reached the Prophet he sent in their pursuit (and they were caught and brought). The Prophet ordered that their eyes be branded with heated iron bars and their hands be cut off, and they were left at Al-Harra till they died in that state.

 
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 134:
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
That he was sitting behind Umar bin Abdul Aziz and the people mentioned and mentioned (about At-Qasama) and they said (various things), and said that the Caliphs had permitted it. 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz turned towards Abu Qilaba who was behind him and said. "What do you say, O 'Abdullah bin Zaid?" or said, "What do you say, O Abu Qilaba?" Abu Qilaba said, "I do not know that killing a person is lawful in Islam except in three cases: a married person committing illegal sexual intercourse, one who has murdered somebody unlawfully, or one who wages war against Allah and His Apostle." 'Anbasa said, "Anas narrated to us such-and-such." Abu Qilaba said, "Anas narrated to me in this concern, saying, some people came to the Prophet and they spoke to him saying, 'The climate of this land does not suit us.' The Prophet said, 'These are camels belonging to us, and they are to be taken out to the pasture. So take them out and drink of their milk and urine.' So they took them and set out and drank of their urine and milk, and having recovered, they attacked the shepherd, killed him and drove away the camels.' Why should there be any delay in punishing them as they murdered (a person) and waged war against Allah and His Apostle and frightened Allah's Apostle ?" Anbasa said, "I testify the uniqueness of Allah!" Abu Qilaba said, "Do you suspect me?" 'Anbasa said, "No, Anas narrated that (Hadith) to us." Then 'Anbasa added, "O the people of such-and-such (country), you will remain in good state as long as Allah keeps this (man) and the like of this (man) amongst you."

 
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794:
Narrated Anas:
Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.


P.S. I can understand if Muhammed's followers fell for the pervious ones, but I can't believe they actually fell for that one .

What about Fever?
Fever is from the heat of hell.
Mohammed said, " Fever is from the heat of hell, so put it out (cool it) with water." Vol. 7:619
P.S. Muhammed actually thought that Hell was made of actual fire.

What if you found a fly floating in you drink?
A fly in your drink is a cure.
Mohammed said, "If a housefly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease. " Vol. 4:537
P.S. Maybe i should try this personally  .

How a baby's gender is decided?
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 275:

Narrated Anas:

When the news of the arrival of the Prophet at Medina reached 'Abdullah bin Salam, he went to him to ask him about certain things, He said, "I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of The Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?" The Prophet replied, "Gabriel has just now informed me of that." Ibn Salam said, "He (i.e. Gabriel) is the enemy of the Jews amongst the angels. The Prophet said, "As for the first sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to the West. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise will eat, it will be the caudate (extra) lobe of the fish-liver. As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman."

On this, 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and that you are the Apostle of Allah." and added, "O Allah's Apostle! Jews invent such lies as make one astonished, so please ask them about me before they know about my conversion to I slam . " The Jews came, and the Prophet said, "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam among you?" They replied, "The best of us and the son of the best of us and the most superior among us, and the son of the most superior among us. "The Prophet said, "What would you think if 'Abdullah bin Salam should embrace Islam?" They said, "May Allah protect him from that." The Prophet repeated his question and they gave the same answer. Then 'Abdullah came out to them and said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah!" On this, the Jews said, "He is the most wicked among us and the son of the most wicked among us." So they degraded him. On this, he (i.e. 'Abdullah bin Salam) said, "It is this that I was afraid of, O Allah's Apostle.


What happens to Muslims who don't wake up early in the morning to pray?
Narrated Abdullah: the prophet was told that a person had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The prophet said, "Satan urinated in his ears." Vol. 2:245  
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 08:40:32 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #331 on: April 30, 2013, 10:34:56 AM »

Montalban,

Do you honestly think you can learn Islam from just going to these websites and randomly quoting hadiths and Quranic verses out of context, without acknowledging what Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have said on these matters?  The Islamic tradition is a vast tradition with differing opinions on these very things.  You certainly wouldn't like people quoting the Bible and Judeo-Christian sources disrespectfully and out of context (which is what a lot of modern secular people now do), so I suggest that you don't do it to others. Your whole approach comes across as juvenile and disingenuous.

Whatever happened to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

When it comes to Muhammad's supposed actions, such as murdering POWS and having certain people assassinated, assuming that these events actually took place, do you have any proof that he did not repent and ask for forgiveness? You're just making assumptions out of your own inherent bias.  Interestingly enough, you ignored the hadiths that have him spent entire nights in non-stop prayer, to the point that his feet would get swollen.

Also, comparing David and Muhammad in this respect is somewhat unfair and here's why: the hadiths, whether reliable or not, bring out much more details about Muhammad's life and everyday doings than the Bible does about David - in the Bible, David is like a character in a story, with hadiths, it's a much different approach.  In addition, the hadiths usually don't take into account specific situational context or social historical context when it narrates traditions from Muhammad.

In addition, the biography of Muhammad that a lot of anti-Islam intellectuals like to use is the one by Ibn Ishaq, a biography which was compiled around 150-200 years after Muhammad's death - some of the events described in it are a source of controversy.  There are Muslim scholars who think that the events mentioned above were fabricated.  For a fact, Imam Malik did not consider Ibn Ishaq to be a reliable source at all when it came to these matters.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 10:53:40 AM by essene19 » Logged
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« Reply #332 on: April 30, 2013, 10:49:48 AM »


One Moslem has complained about my sourcing of Sunni material - I have done this because the vast majority of Moslems are Sunni. However even in Shi'a they have circumstances for lying...

Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, provides the following commentary:
 Telling of a lie is a grave sin but a Muslim is permitted to tell a lie in some exceptional cases, and this permission is given especially on three occasions: in case of battle for bringing reconciliation amongst the hostile Muslims and for bringing reconciliation between the husband and the wife.
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/
(This is a Shi'a site – Shi’a are not the majority of Moslems, but mainly located in Iran)

The majority of Moslems are Sunni. Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah#Sunni_view

The god of Islam himself deceives people (they believe this happened when he caused the Jews to only think they'd killed Jesus Christ.)

Thus their own god tricks people!


That verse about Jesus's crucifixion served to dispel arrogant notions amongst those Jews who believed that their ancestors had murdered the Messiah.  How is that deception?  And I've already addressed the fact that verse is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many different ways when it comes to what happened during the crucifixion.  You're just looking for holes and flaws and finding whatever excuse you can to present certain aspects of Islam as such.  You are fooling no one.

As for taqiyyah, it is primarily a Shi'ite practice used to protect one's life - if one's life is potentially in danger due to one's identity or religious beliefs, then it is permissible to lie in order to preserve your life.  There is nothing wrong with this - it's plain common sense.  As for Ibn Kathir's specific quote on lying that you mentioned, I find nothing  wrong with it either.

I know now that you are not interested in a serious discussion and nothing is going to make you think differently.  You are approaching the subject with a specific bias and will use anything, no matter how weak or simple, to prove that bias.

But two can play that game.  You say "their god tricks people blah blah blah".  Okay, so Muslims worship a different god - so, are there two gods now in the universe?  I thought there was only one God?  And if the god of Islam is Satan, as some detractors of Islam like to believe, is the real God incompetent enough that he can't stop Satan from impersonating Him?  Even someone of the likes of Robert Spencer genuinely believed, based on all the evidence he examined, that Muhammad saw or experienced something when he received his revelations - although Spencer won't admit it in public, he most likely believes that Muhammad saw a demon rather than the Angel Gabriel.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 10:54:37 AM by essene19 » Logged
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« Reply #333 on: April 30, 2013, 10:58:47 AM »

But, I still believe the majority of women who wear hijab are doing it for spiritual, cultural and modesty reasons nto just because they don't want to be raped. Hell that can happen right here in America by non-Muslims. And most assuredly does.

yes this is definitely one of the main reasons for the hijab

protection from jinns, demons, ...etc.
Are you serious?

Do they really wear headcoverings as some kind of superstitious garb to ward off invisible boogey-men?

What I meant by "spiritual" was was to avoid temptation or being an accesory to another's sin of lust.

It's usually for the latter in almost all cases, but I have heard the argument before about hijab being protection againsts demons or other negative spiritual entities.  If such a case were true, then I think the origins of that practice go back to the Book of Enoch - remember, the Fallen Angels in that story saw earthly women and lusted after them, and ended up mating with them.
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« Reply #334 on: April 30, 2013, 11:15:58 AM »


One Moslem has complained about my sourcing of Sunni material - I have done this because the vast majority of Moslems are Sunni. However even in Shi'a they have circumstances for lying...

Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, provides the following commentary:
 Telling of a lie is a grave sin but a Muslim is permitted to tell a lie in some exceptional cases, and this permission is given especially on three occasions: in case of battle for bringing reconciliation amongst the hostile Muslims and for bringing reconciliation between the husband and the wife.
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/
(This is a Shi'a site – Shi’a are not the majority of Moslems, but mainly located in Iran)

The majority of Moslems are Sunni. Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah#Sunni_view

The god of Islam himself deceives people (they believe this happened when he caused the Jews to only think they'd killed Jesus Christ.)

Thus their own god tricks people!


That verse about Jesus's crucifixion served to dispel arrogant notions amongst those Jews who believed that their ancestors had murdered the Messiah.  How is that deception?  And I've already addressed the fact that verse is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many different ways when it comes to what happened during the crucifixion.  You're just looking for holes and flaws and finding whatever excuse you can to present certain aspects of Islam as such.  You are fooling no one.

As for taqiyyah, it is primarily a Shi'ite practice used to protect one's life - if one's life is potentially in danger due to one's identity or religious beliefs, then it is permissible to lie in order to preserve your life.  There is nothing wrong with this - it's plain common sense.  As for Ibn Kathir's specific quote on lying that you mentioned, I find nothing  wrong with it either.

I know now that you are not interested in a serious discussion and nothing is going to make you think differently.  You are approaching the subject with a specific bias and will use anything, no matter how weak or simple, to prove that bias.

But two can play that game.  You say "their god tricks people blah blah blah".  Okay, so Muslims worship a different god - so, are there two gods now in the universe?  I thought there was only one God?  And if the god of Islam is Satan, as some detractors of Islam like to believe, is the real God incompetent enough that he can't stop Satan from impersonating Him?  Even someone of the likes of Robert Spencer genuinely believed, based on all the evidence he examined, that Muhammad saw or experienced something when he received his revelations - although Spencer won't admit it in public, he most likely believes that Muhammad saw a demon rather than the Angel Gabriel.

Lord have mercy!!
You can't possibly expect us to believe you are worshipping the same God we are. There's only one God, and you don't believe in Him. You believe in a man-made god , rather than believing in the Maker of Heaven and Earth, Himself.
Don't even go there!
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« Reply #335 on: April 30, 2013, 11:43:44 AM »


One Moslem has complained about my sourcing of Sunni material - I have done this because the vast majority of Moslems are Sunni. However even in Shi'a they have circumstances for lying...

Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, provides the following commentary:
 Telling of a lie is a grave sin but a Muslim is permitted to tell a lie in some exceptional cases, and this permission is given especially on three occasions: in case of battle for bringing reconciliation amongst the hostile Muslims and for bringing reconciliation between the husband and the wife.
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/
(This is a Shi'a site – Shi’a are not the majority of Moslems, but mainly located in Iran)

The majority of Moslems are Sunni. Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah#Sunni_view

The god of Islam himself deceives people (they believe this happened when he caused the Jews to only think they'd killed Jesus Christ.)

Thus their own god tricks people!


That verse about Jesus's crucifixion served to dispel arrogant notions amongst those Jews who believed that their ancestors had murdered the Messiah.  How is that deception?  And I've already addressed the fact that verse is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many different ways when it comes to what happened during the crucifixion.  You're just looking for holes and flaws and finding whatever excuse you can to present certain aspects of Islam as such.  You are fooling no one.

As for taqiyyah, it is primarily a Shi'ite practice used to protect one's life - if one's life is potentially in danger due to one's identity or religious beliefs, then it is permissible to lie in order to preserve your life.  There is nothing wrong with this - it's plain common sense.  As for Ibn Kathir's specific quote on lying that you mentioned, I find nothing  wrong with it either.

I know now that you are not interested in a serious discussion and nothing is going to make you think differently.  You are approaching the subject with a specific bias and will use anything, no matter how weak or simple, to prove that bias.

But two can play that game.  You say "their god tricks people blah blah blah".  Okay, so Muslims worship a different god - so, are there two gods now in the universe?  I thought there was only one God?  And if the god of Islam is Satan, as some detractors of Islam like to believe, is the real God incompetent enough that he can't stop Satan from impersonating Him?  Even someone of the likes of Robert Spencer genuinely believed, based on all the evidence he examined, that Muhammad saw or experienced something when he received his revelations - although Spencer won't admit it in public, he most likely believes that Muhammad saw a demon rather than the Angel Gabriel.

Lord have mercy!!
You can't possibly expect us to believe you are worshipping the same God we are. There's only one God, and you don't believe in Him. You believe in a man-made god , rather than believing in the Maker of Heaven and Earth, Himself.
Don't even go there!


You do realize that I was being sarcastic with most of my last paragraph right?  

I don't expect nor desire for you to believe in anything.  And I know all too well not to get into these kinds of arguments, but your claim about me worshiping a man-made god is just as much of a subjective claim as saying that you worship the real God.  These arguments won't end.

There IS only one God, the creator of the Universe, maker of Heaven and Earth - Jews, Christians, Muslims have been saying that in their doctrines for ages.  The problem is, neither of the three groups can agree on what this one God is like, and quite frankly, I don't think they ever will agree.  You are entitled to your beliefs, and I am entitled to mine.
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« Reply #336 on: April 30, 2013, 01:42:19 PM »


What a weak argument.  I already addressed the issue of Aisha in another thread.

It is not a weak argument. Actually, it is not an argument, but a fact derived from Islamic tradition concerning Muhammad's marriage with Aisha.

You are free to deny Islamic traditions when you are ashamed of Muhammad's life and actions, but you have no authority to efface those traditions. They are still there.

As for being sinless and perfect, Muhammad himself never made such a claim - what his followers in later generations did is a different story.  

Islamic tradition teaches that all prophets are sinless and perfect in morality. Since Muhammad himself never considered his marriage with Aisha an act of immorality or a gross sin, he is quilty.

Nothing Muhammad did can be compared to what the Old Testament describes about Lot and his daughters.

Logical fallacy of false analogy. The Tanakh never designates Lot as a prophet, nor does it present prophets as models of morality. Above all, according to the narrative in the Torah, Lot was not aware of what he was doing. You cannot hold him responsible for something he did not do consciously. Are you claming that Muhammad was also drunk throughout his life and that it was actually Aisha who raped him rather than vice versa?  Grin

Authentic sayings of Muhammad, especially in the realm of prophecy, are authoritative.

They are authoritative, but the Qur'an is the PRIMARY authoritative source.

Or so it seemed to them, Or "so it appeared to them" can be interpreted a whole myriad of ways.  Muslim scholars just took that verse and ran with it to fit their own view.  As I mentioned before, I believe that the Quran is purposefully ambiguous about this, and I think it is a part of God's larger plan.

That is your personal opinion. What you believe about the Qur'an is not automatically valid or authentic.


I also addressed that verse you're speaking of in an older thread.  Go look it up, or don't bother.  It doesn't matter. Montelban does not have theauthority to teach me my religion.

and you have no authority to teach me my former religion or to distort the Qur'an verses with the help of sloppy translations.
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« Reply #337 on: April 30, 2013, 02:12:34 PM »

and you have no authority to teach me my former religion or to distort the Qur'an verses with the help of sloppy translations.

You are one confused individual, and it is pretty much evidenced by your whole approach and your "Elohimist" philosophy, whatever that is.  I won't accuse of you lying, since I don't have proof, but you are undoubtedly disingenuous.  Best of luck to you.
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« Reply #338 on: April 30, 2013, 02:35:24 PM »


You are one confused individual, and it is pretty much evidenced by your whole approach and your "Elohimist" philosophy, whatever that is. 
Ad Hominem will not take you anywhere.  angel
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« Reply #339 on: April 30, 2013, 02:45:05 PM »

your "Elohimist" philosophy, whatever that is.

Dislike for anything Arab. Probably some kind of antithesis for his former religion and Islamic homeland.

You can't possibly expect us to believe you are worshipping the same God we are.

I do exactly that. AFAIK several Holy Fathers believe that too. Muslims are heretics, not pagans.
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« Reply #340 on: April 30, 2013, 02:46:14 PM »


Okay, so Muslims worship a different god - so, are there two gods now in the universe?  I thought there was only one God?  And if the god of Islam is Satan, as some detractors of Islam like to believe, is the real God incompetent enough that he can't stop Satan from impersonating Him?  Even someone of the likes of Robert Spencer genuinely believed, based on all the evidence he examined, that Muhammad saw or experienced something when he received his revelations - although Spencer won't admit it in public, he most likely believes that Muhammad saw a demon rather than the Angel Gabriel.

Lord have mercy!!
You can't possibly expect us to believe you are worshipping the same God we are. There's only one God, and you don't believe in Him. You believe in a man-made god , rather than believing in the Maker of Heaven and Earth, Himself.
Don't even go there!


You do realize that I was being sarcastic with most of my last paragraph right?  

I don't expect nor desire for you to believe in anything.  And I know all too well not to get into these kinds of arguments, but your claim about me worshiping a man-made god is just as much of a subjective claim as saying that you worship the real God.  These arguments won't end.

There IS only one God, the creator of the Universe, maker of Heaven and Earth - Jews, Christians, Muslims have been saying that in their doctrines for ages.  The problem is, neither of the three groups can agree on what this one God is like, and quite frankly, I don't think they ever will agree.  You are entitled to your beliefs, and I am entitled to mine.

There IS only one God. And you don't believe in Him, and you don't worship Him. If you would, you would be a Christian. Simple as that. The teachings are completely different, the main idea is different, everything is different. Who you worship is not who I worship. Let's just make this clear. I will never agree that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. I do not accept this and I am not ok with you coming here and saying you have the same God as I have. No, sir! I'm sorry!
And of course, you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs, but what you believe it's different than what we believe, so don't put an equal sign between what Christians worship as God, and what you worship as God.
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« Reply #341 on: April 30, 2013, 02:57:01 PM »


Well, this is easily cleared up.

Do Muslims believe in the Trinity?  If not, than whomever they worship is not our God.
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« Reply #342 on: April 30, 2013, 03:10:16 PM »

The way I see God is He is beyond all comprehension.  He has revealed Himself to His Church, so what we do understand of Him as Orthodox is true.  There are many other religions who have many other beliefs, some of which are true and others are false or deficient.  I think that pretty much any monotheistic faith can be said to worship God, but they just do it in a very deficient way.  Even other theistic schemes could be said to worship God from a very incorrect perspective.  If you attempt to put definitions on what God is, you can eliminate just about any group from worshiping God.  E.g. Catholics are Trinitarian but they believe in the filioque, could that deficiency mean they worship a different God?
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« Reply #343 on: April 30, 2013, 03:20:10 PM »


Well, this is easily cleared up.

Do Muslims believe in the Trinity?  If not, than whomever they worship is not our God.

You do realize that you disagree with earliest Christian response to Islam?
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« Reply #344 on: April 30, 2013, 05:35:49 PM »

and you have no authority to teach me my former religion or to distort the Qur'an verses with the help of sloppy translations.

You are one confused individual, and it is pretty much evidenced by your whole approach and your "Elohimist" philosophy, whatever that is.  I won't accuse of you lying, since I don't have proof, but you are undoubtedly disingenuous.  Best of luck to you.

I think that you could express your disagreement with Theophilos78 in a way that does not skirt being ad hominem. Therefore, this is an informal warning and a reminder that you are on an Orthodox Christian site. Please read the rules section, particularly the section on Forum Purpose & Place of the Non-Orthodox. If you have any questions, please PM me. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #345 on: April 30, 2013, 05:43:56 PM »


I would suggest you read several translations of the Koran some commentary, then use a concordance.

We can check the meaning of the verse from its Arabic original.

Or just look at Muhammed Asad's translation and copious notes, which is not subsidized by Saudi money like many other translations of the Quran in English.

Logical fallacy: the fact that it is not subsidized by Saudi money like many other translations of the Quran in English does not suffice to make Asad's translation accurate and reliable.

Or meet and live with Muslims. More than a few Muslims counted me as a dear friend and showed me nothing but generosity and care. Every Muslims I was around was quite courteous and friendly. I was openly areligious, drank like fish, etc.

Another logical fallacy: what some Muslims do does not change the interpretation or meaning of a Qur'an verse.

The above shows you understand neither logic nor discussion.

Orthonorm--You are getting a bit too categorical here. He could say the same thing about you--just as logically and under the rules of discussion that normally prevail in society. No?
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« Reply #346 on: April 30, 2013, 06:44:25 PM »

Montalban,

Do you honestly think you can learn Islam from just going to these websites and randomly quoting hadiths and Quranic verses out of context, without acknowledging what Muslim scholars throughout the centuries have said on these matters?
This is another non-response.

It misrepresents my posts as I've not just 'randomly quoted hadith', but I've also cited Islamic experts.

However as noted time and again by myself the game of Islamic apologetics is to avoid discussion - because Islan cannot face the light of scrutiny.



In addition, the biography of Muhammad that a lot of anti-Islam intellectuals like to use is the one by Ibn Ishaq, a biography which was compiled around 150-200 years after Muhammad's death - some of the events described in it are a source of controversy.  There are Muslim scholars who think that the events mentioned above were fabricated.  For a fact, Imam Malik did not consider Ibn Ishaq to be a reliable source at all when it came to these matters.

At last, something resembling a statement on an issue.

Here’s wiki’s un-biased account:
In hadith studies, ibn Isḥaq's hadith is generally thought to be "good" (ḥasan) (assuming an accurate and trustworthy isnad, or chain of transmission)[23] and himself having a reputation of being "sincere" or "trustworthy" (ṣadūq). However, a general analysis of his isnads has given him the negative distinction of being a mudallis, meaning one who did not name his teacher, claiming instead to narrate directly from his teacher's teacher.[24] Because of his tadlīs, many scholars including Muhammad al-Bukhari hardly ever used his narrations in their sahih books.[25] According to al-Khaṭīb al-Baghdādī, all scholars of ahadith except one no longer rely on any of his narrations, although truth is not foreign to him.[26] Others, like Ahmad ibn Hanbal, rejected his narrations on all matters related to fiqh.[3] Al-Dhahabī concluded that despite his good qualities any narration solely transmitted through him should probably be considered as containing munkar.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Ishaq#Reliability_of_his_ahadith

However I again must stress that I have cited Moslem sites that accept things such as the young age of Aisha; that she was nine when the marriage was consummated.

In other words, I have cited Moslems who believe that.
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« Reply #347 on: April 30, 2013, 06:46:46 PM »

That verse about Jesus's crucifixion served to dispel arrogant notions amongst those Jews who believed that their ancestors had murdered the Messiah.  How is that deception?  And I've already addressed the fact that verse is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many different ways when it comes to what happened during the crucifixion.  You're just looking for holes and flaws and finding whatever excuse you can to present certain aspects of Islam as such.  You are fooling no one.
Which is again non-discussion.

As for taqiyyah, it is primarily a Shi'ite practice used to protect one's life - if one's life is potentially in danger due to one's identity or religious beliefs, then it is permissible to lie in order to preserve your life.  There is nothing wrong with this - it's plain common sense.  As for Ibn Kathir's specific quote on lying that you mentioned, I find nothing  wrong with it either.
Excepting that the instance I cited was not about ‘protecting one’s life’. But rather allowing someone to go and tell a lie in order to lure someone to their death. And then to murder them.


I know now that you are not interested in a serious discussion and nothing is going to make you think differently. 

And there we end it, then.
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« Reply #348 on: April 30, 2013, 06:48:53 PM »


Well, this is easily cleared up.

Do Muslims believe in the Trinity?  If not, than whomever they worship is not our God.

They do not. And what is worse that they distort (a massive straw-man) what Christians teach about the Trinity; that we worship God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the Mother.
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« Reply #349 on: April 30, 2013, 06:50:54 PM »


Well, this is easily cleared up.

Do Muslims believe in the Trinity?  If not, than whomever they worship is not our God.

You do realize that you disagree with earliest Christian response to Islam?

Firstly, the earliest response was based on Christian misunderstanding of Islam; as just another Christian heresy.

Secondly, that misunderstanding is not enshrined in Christian belief; whereas the Islamic misunderstanding of Christianity is in the Koran (re: the Trinity). Thus their holiest of books has a straw-man argument which shouldn't be there, if based on the words of an all-knowing God.
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« Reply #350 on: April 30, 2013, 06:57:52 PM »

For the most part Islamic apologetics consists of two arguments;


Avoidance: You just don't understand us / you have no desire for proper discussion / your sources are all non-Islamic, or out of context

or

Diversion: Let's look at what Christians (or others) do.

Both of these approaches fail dealing with Islam - which is their purpose (whether intended or not).

Islam was once famous for intellectuals.

If people have Islamic evidence for their argument I would be more than happy to discuss it.

I am well aware, for eg. of the many sites that now argue against Aisha being 9 at the time the marriage was consummated. If Moslems wish to re-examine this, and in turn re-interpret this, I would welcome that as it's a dreadful indictment on Muhammad that a man in his forties would do what he did with a child.

I should also note here that the belief that she was not nine only dates back about 200 years. This of course doesn’t mean that all Moslems will do this horrendous act… but it is permitted in Islam. Fortunately, influenced as they are by western values, many Islamic nations have a reasonable age of consent.

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« Reply #351 on: April 30, 2013, 07:21:01 PM »

Are you serious?

Do they really wear headcoverings as some kind of superstitious garb to ward off invisible boogey-men?

What I meant by "spiritual" was was to avoid temptation or being an accesory to another's sin of lust.

Well what you say about lust is very true.  So is the envy of women who are jeleous about her beauty and looks.

But in regards to demons, jinns... it a serious matter as well.  

Any person that causes lust, envy or other sins, the jinns will notice immediately..and they will do whatever they can to make that person to instigate even more sins (like deceiving her to dress even more provocatively)........which will most likely destroy her life and relationships.
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« Reply #352 on: April 30, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »

Are you serious?

Do they really wear headcoverings as some kind of superstitious garb to ward off invisible boogey-men?

What I meant by "spiritual" was was to avoid temptation or being an accesory to another's sin of lust.

Well what you say about lust is very true.  So is the envy of women who are jeleous about her beauty and looks.

That's rather sexist. So all women are that shallow?


But in regards to demons, jinns... it a serious matter as well.  

Any person that causes lust, envy or other sins, the jinns will notice immediately..and they will do whatever they can to make that person to instigate even more sins (like deceiving her to dress even more provocatively)........which will most likely destroy her life and relationships.

So women cause lust. Abrogation of responsibility in Islam!
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« Reply #353 on: April 30, 2013, 08:13:58 PM »

Hair destroys relationships. You heard it here first.
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« Reply #354 on: April 30, 2013, 08:15:59 PM »

Are you serious?

Do they really wear headcoverings as some kind of superstitious garb to ward off invisible boogey-men?

What I meant by "spiritual" was was to avoid temptation or being an accesory to another's sin of lust.

Well what you say about lust is very true.  So is the envy of women who are jeleous about her beauty and looks.

That's rather sexist. So all women are that shallow?


But in regards to demons, jinns... it a serious matter as well.  

Any person that causes lust, envy or other sins, the jinns will notice immediately..and they will do whatever they can to make that person to instigate even more sins (like deceiving her to dress even more provocatively)........which will most likely destroy her life and relationships.

So women cause lust. Abrogation of responsibility in Islam!

the context of my post is about female hijab
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« Reply #355 on: April 30, 2013, 08:26:51 PM »


Very interesting response.  Thanks for adding it.  I never had heard of Islam as the middle ground between the heart of Christianity and the law of Judaism.

Islam is even more legalistic than is Judaism

Especially Shi'ism. 
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« Reply #356 on: April 30, 2013, 08:40:24 PM »

Are you serious?

Do they really wear headcoverings as some kind of superstitious garb to ward off invisible boogey-men?

What I meant by "spiritual" was was to avoid temptation or being an accesory to another's sin of lust.

Well what you say about lust is very true.  So is the envy of women who are jeleous about her beauty and looks.

That's rather sexist. So all women are that shallow?


But in regards to demons, jinns... it a serious matter as well.  

Any person that causes lust, envy or other sins, the jinns will notice immediately..and they will do whatever they can to make that person to instigate even more sins (like deceiving her to dress even more provocatively)........which will most likely destroy her life and relationships.

So women cause lust. Abrogation of responsibility in Islam!

the context of my post is about female hijab

Yes, I understood that.

I have already mentioned that women are deemed to be the causers of men straying. I gave opinion that from Islam about how women 'deserve' to be raped if they dress a certain way,

You confirm women are the source of lust - it's their fault
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« Reply #357 on: April 30, 2013, 08:40:59 PM »

Hair destroys relationships. You heard it here first.

I've seen it. The music's okay
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« Reply #358 on: April 30, 2013, 09:06:40 PM »

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Three persons in the Trinity are still 1 God.
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« Reply #359 on: April 30, 2013, 09:12:06 PM »


Yes one God, indivisible.  Therefore, if the second person of the Trinity is not recognized, it is no longer a Trinity, is it?

1+1+1=3
1+1=2

2 ≠ 3
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