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Author Topic: What Attracts Westerners to Islam?  (Read 10083 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« Reply #180 on: April 28, 2013, 01:13:22 AM »


 For instance in Inodnesia you can get beer - Bintang Beer. Despite alcahol being forbidden in Islam.


 This is because Indonesia is ruled by Pancasila and not Shari'a.  While it is true that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the entire Middle East, there are also Hindu's, Buddhists and Christians, hence the reason why beer and other spirits are available.  However most pious Indonesian Muslims do not drink alcohol.  My first wife was Indonesian.  She wasn't particularly devout and occasionally enjoyed a drink.  Her mother, however, was very devout and she never touched alcohol.  
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« Reply #181 on: April 28, 2013, 01:15:15 AM »


 For instance in Inodnesia you can get beer - Bintang Beer. Despite alcahol being forbidden in Islam.


 This is because Indonesia is ruled by Pancasila and not Shari'a.  While it is true that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the entire Middle East, there are also Hindu's, Buddhists and Christians, hence the reason why beer and other spirits are available.  However most pious Indonesian Muslims do not drink alcohol.  My first wife was Indonesian.  She wasn't particularly devout and occasionally enjoyed a drink.  Her mother, however, was very devout and she never touched alcohol.  

Turkey also, which has had a struggle between secularism and Islam has beer! Efes Beverage Group
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« Reply #182 on: April 28, 2013, 01:19:47 AM »

Gabriel, could you please reply to my earlier question about spiritual struggle if you get the chance? I think it would be helpful to hear about this from an Islam to Orthodoxy convert.

 I don't think spiritual struggles are any different in Islam than with Christianity.  For example, we've all heard the word Jihad thrown around, often way out of context.  Like all Semitic languages, Arabic words are formed from a tri-consonant root word.  The word Jihad comes from the word jhd (jahd) and it means to make an effort, to struggle.  In a religious context, it's a spiritual struggle.  Something that all Muslims generally agree on is the Greater Jihad; that is, to struggle, or make an effort in our everyday lives to do the right thing.  Often times I'm lazy about praying.  The Fathers even acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes.  Muslims face the same struggles and temptations that everyone else face and so they make a great jihad to get up early morning, every morning and pray.  Incidentally, the lesser jihad is the 'holy war' we hear about. 

 Is that helpful? 

Thanks for the response, and I am somewhat familiar with the actual significance of jihad. However, in Orthodoxy, struggle is often considered intrinsically beneficial spiritually (e.g. in the writings of the Desert Fathers), or the means an end in themselves, and I was wondering to what extent the same was true in Islam. I hope that's phrased clearly enough.

 For pious Muslims, from my experience, ascetical jihad is considered beneficial although I don't recall them speaking of it as such.  Islam is a law-based religion like Judaism so their spiritual struggles are designed to help them become better Muslims whereas Orthodox Christian spiritual struggles are designed to help us arrive at Theosis.  
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« Reply #183 on: April 28, 2013, 01:23:42 AM »


 For instance in Inodnesia you can get beer - Bintang Beer. Despite alcahol being forbidden in Islam.


 This is because Indonesia is ruled by Pancasila and not Shari'a.  While it is true that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the entire Middle East, there are also Hindu's, Buddhists and Christians, hence the reason why beer and other spirits are available.  However most pious Indonesian Muslims do not drink alcohol.  My first wife was Indonesian.  She wasn't particularly devout and occasionally enjoyed a drink.  Her mother, however, was very devout and she never touched alcohol.  

Turkey also, which has had a struggle between secularism and Islam has beer! Efes Beverage Group

 Yep.  They also drink Raki which is similar to Ouzo.  Once the Islamic Ottoman Empire eventually broke apart, it became more and more secular.  Attaturk (Mustafa Kemal) romanized their alphabet and implemented many secular aspects.  From what I've read, he was very Westernized and not at all Islamic. 
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« Reply #184 on: April 28, 2013, 01:27:04 AM »


 For instance in Inodnesia you can get beer - Bintang Beer. Despite alcahol being forbidden in Islam.


 This is because Indonesia is ruled by Pancasila and not Shari'a.  While it is true that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the entire Middle East, there are also Hindu's, Buddhists and Christians, hence the reason why beer and other spirits are available.  However most pious Indonesian Muslims do not drink alcohol.  My first wife was Indonesian.  She wasn't particularly devout and occasionally enjoyed a drink.  Her mother, however, was very devout and she never touched alcohol.  

Turkey also, which has had a struggle between secularism and Islam has beer! Efes Beverage Group

 Yep.  They also drink Raki which is similar to Ouzo.  Once the Islamic Ottoman Empire eventually broke apart, it became more and more secular.  Attaturk (Mustafa Kemal) romanized their alphabet and implemented many secular aspects.  From what I've read, he was very Westernized and not at all Islamic. 

He also abolished the Caliphate.
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« Reply #185 on: April 28, 2013, 01:32:33 AM »


I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.
You are of coarse, correct.  A rose by any other name is still a rose.

the reason why muslims women wear the head covering

is the same exact reason why mary wore the head covering

which is the same exact reason why catholic nuns, orthodox jews, hindus and orthodox nuns have been wearing it for many generations.

 From my limited studies, I tend to agree with you as pertaining to the spiritual reasons as to why Muslimah's wear head coverings.  But it goes a little further than that: Islam was heavily influenced by Christianity and Judaism.  
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« Reply #186 on: April 28, 2013, 01:33:07 AM »


 For instance in Inodnesia you can get beer - Bintang Beer. Despite alcahol being forbidden in Islam.


 This is because Indonesia is ruled by Pancasila and not Shari'a.  While it is true that there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the entire Middle East, there are also Hindu's, Buddhists and Christians, hence the reason why beer and other spirits are available.  However most pious Indonesian Muslims do not drink alcohol.  My first wife was Indonesian.  She wasn't particularly devout and occasionally enjoyed a drink.  Her mother, however, was very devout and she never touched alcohol.  

Turkey also, which has had a struggle between secularism and Islam has beer! Efes Beverage Group

 Yep.  They also drink Raki which is similar to Ouzo.  Once the Islamic Ottoman Empire eventually broke apart, it became more and more secular.  Attaturk (Mustafa Kemal) romanized their alphabet and implemented many secular aspects.  From what I've read, he was very Westernized and not at all Islamic. 

He also abolished the Caliphate.

Boy did he ever.
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« Reply #187 on: April 28, 2013, 01:51:08 AM »


I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.
You are of coarse, correct.  A rose by any other name is still a rose.
But it's not a rose! Your analogy would be that a rose is a flower therefore all flowers are roses.

A hijab is a head covering for women. Not all head coverings for women are hijabs.

The difference is in their purpose, and the rationale behind their use.


I've given other examples. Whilst a skirt is a dress, a kilt is not. They look the same, have a function similar; in covering the groin, but they are not the same.
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« Reply #188 on: April 28, 2013, 02:39:01 AM »


I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.
You are of coarse, correct.  A rose by any other name is still a rose.
But it's not a rose! Your analogy would be that a rose is a flower therefore all flowers are roses.

A hijab is a head covering for women. Not all head coverings for women are hijabs.

The difference is in their purpose, and the rationale behind their use.


I've given other examples. Whilst a skirt is a dress, a kilt is not. They look the same, have a function similar; in covering the groin, but they are not the same.

Same with men in tutus:



http://www.thetutuproject.com/


 


The mission of The Tutu Project™ is to support the fund raising efforts of The Carey Foundation for women with breast cancer. We strive to bring laughter and understanding to a community that has endured far too much.




NY Daily News


Bob Carey wears a pink tutu to raise money for breast cancer which his wife Linda Lancaster-Carey is battling. Bob, a photograher, is publishing a book of photos of him posing in various locations in the pink tutu.




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« Reply #189 on: April 28, 2013, 06:33:25 AM »

...But we're getting off topic. The thread is about why Westerners convert to Islam, and I doubt that veiling is very high on the list of motivations.
Well, some people do not accept the divinity of Jesus or that He is all-knowing as God is. They point to several passages in Scriptures, such as: Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
 
They find support for their belief in Islam which teaches that Jesus was a great prophet, but that He was not God.   
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« Reply #190 on: April 28, 2013, 08:03:59 AM »


I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.
You are of coarse, correct.  A rose by any other name is still a rose.
But it's not a rose! Your analogy would be that a rose is a flower therefore all flowers are roses.

A hijab is a head covering for women. Not all head coverings for women are hijabs.

The difference is in their purpose, and the rationale behind their use.


I've given other examples. Whilst a skirt is a dress, a kilt is not. They look the same, have a function similar; in covering the groin, but they are not the same.

Same with men in tutus:



http://www.thetutuproject.com/


 


The mission of The Tutu Project™ is to support the fund raising efforts of The Carey Foundation for women with breast cancer. We strive to bring laughter and understanding to a community that has endured far too much.




NY Daily News


Bob Carey wears a pink tutu to raise money for breast cancer which his wife Linda Lancaster-Carey is battling. Bob, a photograher, is publishing a book of photos of him posing in various locations in the pink tutu.





This is just so wrong on so many levels, even if the guy's heart is in the right place.

I don't see how feminizing a man helps bring awareness to a dreaded disease like Cancer, leave it to "men" in the West these days to go along with an idea like that. As a matter of fact, they've been trying to emasculate men for some time now by encouraging them to wear women's clothing for one reason or another, especially in Hollywood.

Dave Chappelle (who is Muslim BTW) gives an excellent example of this interview on the OWS here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWPRDu7l_EY

I don't see what the big problem is with Muslim women practicing a form of modesty by wearing hijab ( which is optional in most of Islam from what I've researched), I believe that more "christian" women could learn a thing or two from Moslems about modesty these days, but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #191 on: April 28, 2013, 08:03:59 AM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

What a ridiculous comment, "stupid hijab".

Nothing like insulting a religion with over a billion adherents for the mere practice of a few of their women for actually engaging in a form of modesty that much of the Christian West has totally lost any concept of these days.


If only more Christian women adopted more of the Mary-like  dress standards of our Blessed Mother, maybe more of them and others around them would take their religion seriously.

More of Mary-like dress standards here;

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/MarylikeStandardsofModestyinDress.html

THE MARYLIKE STANDARDS FOR MODESTY IN DRESS                               

                                 WHAT ARE THE MARYLIKE STANDARDS?



"A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers' breadth under the pit of the throat;; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper." (The Cardinal vicar of Pope Pius XI)



1.Marylike is modest without compromise, "like Mary", Christ's Mother.



2.Marylike dresses have sleeves extending at least to the elbows; and skirts reaching below the knees. (NOTE: Because of market conditions, quarter-length sleeves are temporarily tolerated with Ecclesiastical Approval, until Christian womanhood again turns to Mary as the model of modesty in dress.)



3.Marylike dresses require full coverage for the bodice, chest, shoulders and back; except for a cut-out about the neck not exceeding two inches below the neckline in front and in the back, and a corresponding two inches on the shoulders.



4.Marylike dresses do not admit as modest coverage transparent fabrics, laces, nets, organdy, nylons, etc. unless sufficient backing is added. However, their moderate use as trimmings is acceptable.



5.Marylike dresses avoid the improper use of flesh colored fabrics.



6.Marylike dresses conceal rather than reveal the figure of the wearer; they do not emphasize, unduly, parts of the body.



7.Marylike dresses provide full coverage, even after jacket, cape or stole are removed and after assuming a sitting position.


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« Reply #192 on: April 28, 2013, 08:35:52 AM »

but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Last time I wore a pink dress I didn't feel progressive or chic.
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« Reply #193 on: April 28, 2013, 08:39:46 AM »

Good question.  I do not know why westerners are attracted to it.  Sometimes kidnap victims are attracted to their kidnappers; I cannot remember the term for it.  Perhaps there is something along those psychological lines.  But why some would be attracted to a religion which has its followers get their kicks out of tying bombs to themselves and blowing themselves and others up or planting bombs at marathon finish lines is beyond me.

Idk. Same reason they get attracted to a religion that hates homosexuals, destroyed pagan temples, oppressed non-Chalcedonians and that was the biggest supporter of Serfdom in Russia...

One of the tools of Satan is confusion.

I have several atheist and/or homosexual friends who defend Islam, but they put down Christianity.

The 'left' in this country (and in the UK and, Europe) generally is anti-Israel, and pro-Palestinian

Islam avoids the spotlight of serious scrutiny in many ways. People who wish to seriously discuss this are seen as western imperialists picking on a weak foe, or are terrorised into not criticising Islam. With no real scrutiny (and only anti-Christian diatribe allowed) people continue to be mislead about Islam.

Also the left has taken control of language. I don't know how it is where you are, but Moslem terrorists are called "Islamisist terrorists" rather than Moslem terrorists.

Moslems who kill themselves are called "suicide-bombers" rather than "martyrdom-bombers" and than Moslems can argue that Islam is against suicide, therefore these bombers carrying out Islamic terror are not following Islam!

Moslems are also permitted to lie, in order to spread Islam.

Some years ago a local Sydney paper (the Telegraph) had an on-line blog with a Moslem apologist Keysar Trad. I caught him lying. I was talking about the discrimination Islam imposes upon non-Moslems. He said that non-Moslems (Dhimmi) don't have to pay the Zakat (a tax). That was a lie by concealment, because he failed to mention that Dhimmi have to pay a different take the Jizya.

I pointed out this; that his answer was not the whole truth.



I agree. Once again, I restate my original thought that I think the reason many westerners convert to Islam now is precisely because it carries the rebellious "bad-boy" affect. Most of these westerners who convert to Islam are liberals who are very anti-conservative. And let's face it; most conservatives in America are very xenophobic of Islam. Therefore, offending Islam has become the new liberal "educated" man taboo because it automatically equates you with those not-too-bright conservatives that they hate. Thus, Islam gains a sense of prestige and people join it as a way of protest against conservatism. Hence like a young girl dating the "bad boy" in order to rebel against her parents that she hates. Liberals convert to Islam for the same reason in many instances--as much as they may hate to admit it.

Actually, most praise for Muslims I hear comes from "traditional" rightiwngs  who praise them for modesty, conservatism and other foolish "values". Islam is strongly against women rights, homosexual rights etc. I cannot imagine a simple liberal who would agree with it.

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.

Ever read what Dalajlama thinks about homosexualism?

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
Although it may not have been the sole motivation for a woman to convert to Islam, nevertheless, the Muslim mode of dress can serve as a motivation to some extent. After eight days of wearing the hijab, Jess Rhodes, said that she was surprised by how positive the reaction of people has been to her wearing the scarf.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21283301


Similar experiment was done in one high school in Polish. Some students dressed up like Muslim women, Orthodox Jew etc. and went out. In a few hours they couldn't count invectives and vulgar taunts.
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« Reply #194 on: April 28, 2013, 09:19:56 AM »

An interesting book for a first-hand view of what being a modern Muslim is like is Muhajababes, by Allegra Stratton. I recommend it, if only for the observation of trends, not the analysis.

Preview
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« Reply #195 on: April 28, 2013, 10:40:52 AM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.


Protestant teaches that  God shows angry, voilence to and kill His only begotten son.It also teaches that God want to kill everybody in this world as all of us are sinner and ugly . Moreover, we are all the sinners in the hand of angry God and deserved to be tortured by God in hell forever.And God love men only if men love Him.If anybody does not love Him and break His rules and His commendments, He will throw them into hell and abandon them forever.
 
I do not see how good or how attractive the Protestant is by comparing it with Muslim.
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« Reply #196 on: April 28, 2013, 11:12:08 AM »

Muslims attract me to Islam. Those that I've met seem genuinely friendly and deeply devout folks. Nice change for secularized Western country where everything seems to be deep-fried in nihilistic humour these days. Sometimes I miss naive ideals, taboos and hierarchies.
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« Reply #197 on: April 28, 2013, 12:08:44 PM »

If only more Christian women adopted more of the Mary-like  dress standards of our Blessed Mother, maybe more of them and others around them would take their religion seriously.

And if being Christ-like were upgraded to include sartorial choices, I'm dying to see certain people implement it. Cheesy
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« Reply #198 on: April 28, 2013, 12:33:33 PM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam   

This is exactly the attraction.  Islam is simple, and easy to understand -- you don't have any doctrines such as the Two Natures of Christ, is it Miaphysitism or Chalcedonianism that is correct?  You don't have the Trinity, and you don't have to bother wrapping your brain how Three Persons (Hypostasis) can be of one Essence (homoousion) and still be the same God without committing the heresy of Monarchianism or Modalism.  Part of the attraction is ritual, that you can pray 5 times a day but such young impressionable folk can also find ritual in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches as well if they looked hard enough. 

As Gebre pointed out, many African Americans are drawn to Islam.  Why? Because they see less racism and prejudice, and you have well known figures such as Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali who were very important to them during their struggle for civil rights.  A lot of the younger African American men especially, see Christianity as having been forced on them by the Imperialist powers during the slave trade.  They don't see Islam in the same way, ignoring all of the mass blood shed which has been done in it's name throughout history. 

What I don't understand is why the political Left at least here in America is always so defensive of Islam.  The Left defends things like sexual freedom, homosexuality, multiculturalism, and the whole idea of as long as it doesn't hurt anyone it must be "right".  Islam in it's pure form is opposed to all of the above, and Radical Islam is even more opposed to those things.  But yet the concept of God is entirely different -- I don't see the logic in choosing a religion where God demands of you to pray, to give to charity, etc. without knowing any hope of forgiveness unless he decides on a whim to forgive you.   At least in Christianity you have the sacrament of Confession, and you have the whole idea that God himself became man and died on a cross out of his Love for you.  There doesn't seem to be any similar concept in Islam, and even though Allah is called "Al Rahman" The Compassionate, and "Al Raheem" the Merciful -- it isn't stressed nearly as much as it is in Christianity.   
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« Reply #199 on: April 28, 2013, 12:57:27 PM »

but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Last time I wore a pink dress I didn't feel progressive or chic.
Maybe you felt a little more sexy, eh?  Wink
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« Reply #200 on: April 28, 2013, 01:00:28 PM »

Quote
Similar experiment was done in one high school in Polish. Some students dressed up like Muslim women, Orthodox Jew etc. and went out. In a few hours they couldn't count invectives and vulgar taunts.
Why those Polish are such a tolerant lot.

At any rate I believe you, the West is so seeped in individual "rights", religious intolerance, and feminism that they can't comprehend that a woman or a culture might just actually believe in dressing in  some form of modesty and the way they present them selves in public as to avoid any real temptation or an accessory to another's sinful thoughts.

As for the feminists, just the mere sight of a covering her "adornments" is enough to enrage them, regardless what the covered woman's spiritual motivation might be, their quite sure some "oppression" or sexism is going on. Just like some of the men on this forum.
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« Reply #201 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:24 PM »

What attracts Westerners to Islam?  I don't see the attraction.  Shariah law and hadith of strict punishments.  Religion spread by the sword.  Belief in Christ as just a prophet, who didn't die on the cross.  I have read an English translation of the Koran and of the hadith.  I don't see what's so great about it all.  Maybe if I knew Arabic I would see more, but I have appreciated the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, and other world religion clasics without knowing the original languages. Islam baffles me.   I am just curious what the draw is for Westerners.


Protestant teaches that  God shows angry, voilence to and kill His only begotten son.It also teaches that God want to kill everybody in this world as all of us are sinner and ugly . Moreover, we are all the sinners in the hand of angry God and deserved to be tortured by God in hell forever.And God love men only if men love Him.If anybody does not love Him and break His rules and His commendments, He will throw them into hell and abandon them forever.
 
I do not see how good or how attractive the Protestant is by comparing it with Muslim.
Probably something to do with "once saved,  always saved" malarky or Sola Scriptura.
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« Reply #202 on: April 28, 2013, 04:37:56 PM »

I don't get the attraction that many Black folks have toward Islam; aren't they aware that the Arab Slave Trade killed more Africans than the European-American one ever did?
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« Reply #203 on: April 28, 2013, 04:44:10 PM »

I don't get the attraction that many Black folks have toward Islam; aren't they aware that the Arab Slave Trade killed more Africans than the European-American one ever did?

Not sure it killed more, but it was definitely more brutal considering slaves in Muslim/Arab society were usually made into eunuchs. But either way, no, most people aren't aware of either fact.
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« Reply #204 on: April 28, 2013, 05:01:12 PM »

but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Last time I wore a pink dress I didn't feel progressive or chic.
Maybe you felt a little more sexy, eh?  Wink

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« Reply #205 on: April 28, 2013, 06:10:38 PM »

but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Last time I wore a pink dress I didn't feel progressive or chic.
Maybe you felt a little more sexy, eh?  Wink

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« Reply #206 on: April 28, 2013, 06:13:43 PM »

I don't see what the big problem is with Muslim women practicing a form of modesty by wearing hijab ( which is optional in most of Islam from what I've researched), I believe that more "christian" women could learn a thing or two from Moslems about modesty these days, but men in dressses, well that's so progressive and "chic" these days. Roll Eyes

Excepting that it's not just a matter of modesty...
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« Reply #207 on: April 28, 2013, 06:14:43 PM »

Nothing like insulting a religion with over a billion adherents for the mere practice of a few of their women for actually engaging in a form of modesty that much of the Christian West has totally lost any concept of these days.

Except it's not just a matter of modesty...
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« Reply #208 on: April 28, 2013, 06:17:56 PM »

Muslims attract me to Islam. Those that I've met seem genuinely friendly and deeply devout folks. Nice change for secularized Western country where everything seems to be deep-fried in nihilistic humour these days. Sometimes I miss naive ideals, taboos and hierarchies.

They are hospitable. But it's against Islam for them to have non-Moslems as close friends.
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« Reply #209 on: April 28, 2013, 06:20:16 PM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam    

This is exactly the attraction.  Islam is simple, and easy to understand -- you don't have any doctrines such as the Two Natures of Christ, is it Miaphysitism or Chalcedonianism that is correct?  You don't have the Trinity, and you don't have to bother wrapping your brain how Three Persons (Hypostasis) can be of one Essence (homoousion) and still be the same God without committing the heresy of Monarchianism or Modalism.  Part of the attraction is ritual, that you can pray 5 times a day but such young impressionable folk can also find ritual in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches as well if they looked hard enough.  

As Gebre pointed out, many African Americans are drawn to Islam.  Why? Because they see less racism and prejudice, and you have well known figures such as Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali who were very important to them during their struggle for civil rights.  A lot of the younger African American men especially, see Christianity as having been forced on them by the Imperialist powers during the slave trade.  They don't see Islam in the same way, ignoring all of the mass blood shed which has been done in it's name throughout history.  

What I don't understand is why the political Left at least here in America is always so defensive of Islam.  The Left defends things like sexual freedom, homosexuality, multiculturalism, and the whole idea of as long as it doesn't hurt anyone it must be "right".  Islam in it's pure form is opposed to all of the above, and Radical Islam is even more opposed to those things.  But yet the concept of God is entirely different -- I don't see the logic in choosing a religion where God demands of you to pray, to give to charity, etc. without knowing any hope of forgiveness unless he decides on a whim to forgive you.   At least in Christianity you have the sacrament of Confession, and you have the whole idea that God himself became man and died on a cross out of his Love for you.  There doesn't seem to be any similar concept in Islam, and even though Allah is called "Al Rahman" The Compassionate, and "Al Raheem" the Merciful -- it isn't stressed nearly as much as it is in Christianity.  


I'd like to point out here that the group of Black Muslims aren't seen as Moslems by Moslems.

Black Islam is itself racist.

And it's based on the notion that black people were Moslem back in Africa but were stolen away and had Christianity imposed on them; thus Christianity is seen as being part of the slave heritage.

And many of the black peoples back in Africa were not Moslem!
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« Reply #210 on: April 28, 2013, 06:21:21 PM »

At any rate I believe you, the West is so seeped in individual "rights", religious intolerance, and feminism that they can't comprehend that a woman or a culture might just actually believe in dressing in  some form of modesty and the way they present them selves in public as to avoid any real temptation or an accessory to another's sinful thoughts.

Except it's not just about modesty...
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« Reply #211 on: April 28, 2013, 06:23:22 PM »

I don't get the attraction that many Black folks have toward Islam; aren't they aware that the Arab Slave Trade killed more Africans than the European-American one ever did?

Absolutely. It's about re-writing history to make people think that they had their Islamic heritage stolen away from them by white slave owners
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« Reply #212 on: April 28, 2013, 06:26:17 PM »

I thought I'd re-cite this as too many people are trivialising the inherent evil in Islam by reducing this issue of one of modesty - and thus giving this an air of nobleness

Women are made to dress the way they are because they are deemed inferior to men, and because they are the object of men's lusts -as if women don't have any lustful desires themselves

I hope this thread doesn't turn into another head-covering debate. In Islam, women cover their mainly because of modesty

That's not wholly the reason. Moslems argue that women who are 'imodest' attract certain attention, and thus are responsible if they're raped

Sheik Hilali was the leader of Australia's Moslems
Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
 
Muslim cleric: women incite men's lust with 'satanic dress'
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-cleric-women-incite-mens-lust-with-satanic-dress/2005/04/23/1114152362381.html

So it's not just for modesty, but 'protection'.

Sydney's Sheik got backing from within Australia.
The Islamic Council of WA's religious adviser, Abdul Jalil Ahmad, says while rape is the man's fault, women should take preventative measures to avoid being targeted.
He says those measures include covering up and being accompanied when outdoors.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1777679.htm
Fortunately there was a lonely Islamic voice arguing against this!
 
 
Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid said...
"Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime."
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_351_400/rape_against_muslim_women.htm
also cited at
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1125407868541
 
Thus when this Sheikh in Sydney was calling for women to be kept at home he probably very sincerely thought that this was indeed the best way of protecting them. He's just so out of touch with western values.
 
No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality...‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/1105
Further, from the same site
 
" The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women."
 
"And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.
 
With regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation. "

and finally
'For her to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must have shown good conduct'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/11/ncleric11.xml

As to turning this into a debate about head-covering, it will so long as relativists try 'tu quoque' apology for Islam being inherently sexist

Women in Islam are deemed to be biologically inferior

Many woman suffer depression and stress during their period, especially at
the beginning, and their mental and intellectual state is at the lowest
level during menstruation.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/43028

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« Reply #213 on: April 28, 2013, 06:46:03 PM »

So are you saying that women aren't less likely to be raped if they wear a hijab?

In the words of a wise Toronto cop, "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."
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« Reply #214 on: April 28, 2013, 06:53:52 PM »

So are you saying that women aren't less likely to be raped if they wear a hijab?

In the words of a wise Toronto cop, "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."

I am not saying this. I am saying Moslems believe this.

There's a number of comments here praising the wearing of hijab as a commitment to modesty.

They’re not wearing it because of this alone; but a warped sense of responsibility.

Some Moslem women are urged to wear it in order to protect MEN from men’s lusts.

Some Moslem women are urged to wear it in order to protect them from men’s lusts.

Either way apparently Moslem men can’t control themselves and because of this women have to cover themselves.

It’s all about abrogation of responsibility.


The commentary I gave, which I've had to repost because it's been ignored, says that women who dress less modestly deserve to be raped! This includes opinion given by Moslems in one western nation - my own - Australia
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« Reply #215 on: April 28, 2013, 06:58:59 PM »

Similar experiment was done in one high school in Polish. Some students dressed up like Muslim women, Orthodox Jew etc. and went out. In a few hours they couldn't count invectives and vulgar taunts.

If they covered themselves with a white hood, do you think they'd get less taunts?

It's more obvious from Moslem women's dress than with men that they're Moslem. Wearing a 'uniform' or symbol of a particular group will attract the attention of others
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« Reply #216 on: April 28, 2013, 07:08:19 PM »

So are you saying that women aren't less likely to be raped if they wear a hijab?

In the words of a wise Toronto cop, "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."

I am not saying this. I am saying Moslems believe this.

There's a number of comments here praising the wearing of hijab as a commitment to modesty.

They’re not wearing it because of this alone; but a warped sense of responsibility.

Some Moslem women are urged to wear it in order to protect MEN from men’s lusts.

Some Moslem women are urged to wear it in order to protect them from men’s lusts.

Either way apparently Moslem men can’t control themselves and because of this women have to cover themselves.

It’s all about abrogation of responsibility.


The commentary I gave, which I've had to repost because it's been ignored, says that women who dress less modestly deserve to be raped! This includes opinion given by Moslems in one western nation - my own - Australia





Of the above, which do you think is more likely to get raped.
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« Reply #217 on: April 28, 2013, 07:30:27 PM »

So are you saying that women aren't less likely to be raped if they wear a hijab?

In the words of a wise Toronto cop, "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."

I am not saying this. I am saying Moslems believe this.

There's a number of comments here praising the wearing of hijab as a commitment to modesty.

They’re not wearing it because of this alone; but a warped sense of responsibility.

Some Moslem women are urged to wear it in order to protect MEN from men’s lusts.

Some Moslem women are urged to wear it in order to protect them from men’s lusts.

Either way apparently Moslem men can’t control themselves and because of this women have to cover themselves.

It’s all about abrogation of responsibility.


The commentary I gave, which I've had to repost because it's been ignored, says that women who dress less modestly deserve to be raped! This includes opinion given by Moslems in one western nation - my own - Australia





Of the above, which do you think is more likely to get raped.
I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?
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« Reply #218 on: April 28, 2013, 07:36:08 PM »

I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?

I've an article that claimed that more defiantly dressed women are less likely to be raped since their apparel intimidates attackers. These are modestly dressed women, who are more likely to be raped.

On the other hand it discussed normal clothing, not swimsuits or bags for potatoes.
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« Reply #219 on: April 28, 2013, 07:38:07 PM »

I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?

I've an article that claimed that more defiantly dressed women are less likely to be raped since their apparel intimidates attackers. These are modestly dressed women, who are more likely to be raped.

On the other hand it discussed normal clothing, not swimsuits or bags for potatoes.
Source please?
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« Reply #220 on: April 28, 2013, 07:47:32 PM »

I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?

I've an article that claimed that more defiantly dressed women are less likely to be raped since their apparel intimidates attackers. These are modestly dressed women, who are more likely to be raped.

On the other hand it discussed normal clothing, not swimsuits or bags for potatoes.
Source please?

Here: http://ponton.org.pl/pl/strona/gwalt-fakty-i-mity
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« Reply #221 on: April 28, 2013, 07:53:11 PM »

I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?

I've an article that claimed that more defiantly dressed women are less likely to be raped since their apparel intimidates attackers. These are modestly dressed women, who are more likely to be raped.

On the other hand it discussed normal clothing, not swimsuits or bags for potatoes.
Source please?

Here: http://ponton.org.pl/pl/strona/gwalt-fakty-i-mity
I pressed "read in English" and it didn't do anything.  Undecided

There has to be a first world problems meme about this somewhere.
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« Reply #222 on: April 28, 2013, 07:59:28 PM »

Of the above, which do you think is more likely to get raped.

There is rape in marriage, and masses of unreported rape in Islamic nations as in order to get a conviction a woman needs three witnesses.

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« Reply #223 on: April 28, 2013, 08:00:42 PM »

I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?

I've an article that claimed that more defiantly dressed women are less likely to be raped since their apparel intimidates attackers. These are modestly dressed women, who are more likely to be raped.

On the other hand it discussed normal clothing, not swimsuits or bags for potatoes.

Also Moslem women have been known to be raped within their households. Wearing a hijab doesn't matter
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« Reply #224 on: April 28, 2013, 08:02:35 PM »

I don't know.  There is a certain logic in the less clothing, the more appealing, but a rapist's mind may not work that way?

I've an article that claimed that more defiantly dressed women are less likely to be raped since their apparel intimidates attackers. These are modestly dressed women, who are more likely to be raped.

On the other hand it discussed normal clothing, not swimsuits or bags for potatoes.
Source please?

It's funny when people ask for sources sometimes.

I sourced my material and you didn't address any of it
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