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Author Topic: What Attracts Westerners to Islam?  (Read 9611 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: April 27, 2013, 03:22:53 PM »

Gabriel, could you please reply to my earlier question about spiritual struggle if you get the chance? I think it would be helpful to hear about this from an Islam to Orthodoxy convert.

 I don't think spiritual struggles are any different in Islam than with Christianity.  For example, we've all heard the word Jihad thrown around, often way out of context.  Like all Semitic languages, Arabic words are formed from a tri-consonant root word.  The word Jihad comes from the word jhd (jahd) and it means to make an effort, to struggle.  In a religious context, it's a spiritual struggle.  Something that all Muslims generally agree on is the Greater Jihad; that is, to struggle, or make an effort in our everyday lives to do the right thing.  Often times I'm lazy about praying.  The Fathers even acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes.  Muslims face the same struggles and temptations that everyone else face and so they make a great jihad to get up early morning, every morning and pray.  Incidentally, the lesser jihad is the 'holy war' we hear about. 

 Is that helpful? 

Thanks for the response, and I am somewhat familiar with the actual significance of jihad. However, in Orthodoxy, struggle is often considered intrinsically beneficial spiritually (e.g. in the writings of the Desert Fathers), or the means an end in themselves, and I was wondering to what extent the same was true in Islam. I hope that's phrased clearly enough.
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« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2013, 03:37:40 PM »

Gabriel, could you please reply to my earlier question about spiritual struggle if you get the chance? I think it would be helpful to hear about this from an Islam to Orthodoxy convert.

 I don't think spiritual struggles are any different in Islam than with Christianity.  For example, we've all heard the word Jihad thrown around, often way out of context.  Like all Semitic languages, Arabic words are formed from a tri-consonant root word.  The word Jihad comes from the word jhd (jahd) and it means to make an effort, to struggle.  In a religious context, it's a spiritual struggle.  Something that all Muslims generally agree on is the Greater Jihad; that is, to struggle, or make an effort in our everyday lives to do the right thing.  Often times I'm lazy about praying.  The Fathers even acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes.  Muslims face the same struggles and temptations that everyone else face and so they make a great jihad to get up early morning, every morning and pray.  Incidentally, the lesser jihad is the 'holy war' we hear about.  

 Is that helpful?  

Thanks for the response, and I am somewhat familiar with the actual significance of jihad. However, in Orthodoxy, struggle is often considered intrinsically beneficial spiritually (e.g. in the writings of the Desert Fathers), or the means an end in themselves, and I was wondering to what extent the same was true in Islam. I hope that's phrased clearly enough.


Gabriel is more knowledgeable than I am on this subject, but my understanding from the Muslims I knew and the things they gave me to read is that the true Jihad is the inward, personal struggle against sin, temptation, etc. The true Jihad is the discipline, mindset, and lifestyle that will lead one closer to God and ultimately to paradise. The outward, physical Jihad should only be a result of the inner Jihad, which has prepared the Muslim to defend the faith forcefully but always with divine mercy guiding the Jihadist's actions. There is a "hadith" that tells of a time when Muhammad was defending himself against an adversary. He finally overpower the man and was about to thrust his sword into his neck when the adversary spit in his face. Muhammad stopped his sword in mid swing and let the adversary go. The man asked Muhammad why he had not killed him, and Muhammad said, "Because Allah forbids me to kill in anger, and when you spat on me I became angry and would have sinned had I killed you from that anger."

But there also seems to be a teaching that one can attain paradise solely by martyrdom, and therefore even if a Muslim lives a sinful life he can go to paradise if he becomes a martyr in a holy war, or outward Jihad. Sadly, it seems that some Muslims have come to view martyrdom as an easy way to go to paradise. Rather than having to wage a lifetime of the inner, spiritual Jihad, they believe they can atone for all their previous sins by blowing themselves up in what they believe to be a holy war. Every Muslim I know would condemn this mentality in the strongest possible terms. But obviously there are Muslims who tragically have adopted this way of thinking.


Selam
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 03:38:38 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2013, 04:00:40 PM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

Dressing conventions have changed a bit since the 1st century, not to mention other cultures.

It's easy to throw around words as if they have a different meaning. We see that here in the case of Islamic apology.

A woman wearing a head scarf or head covering is not necessarily wearing an hijab

The Hijab is indeed a head covering for women, but it has a particular purpose.

If you or I wore a covering to protect us from the sun it would have a different function from the hijab

If function didn't affect meaning then you could say I wear dresses by virtue of having a kilt.

The Hijab has a function in Islam

Mary wasn't Moslem

Therefore Mary dind't wear a Hijab

I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.

the reason why muslims women wear the head covering

is the same exact reason why mary wore the head covering

which is the same exact reason why catholic nuns, orthodox jews, hindus and orthodox nuns have been wearing it for many generations.


« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:01:16 PM by fibonacci » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: April 27, 2013, 04:11:06 PM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

Dressing conventions have changed a bit since the 1st century, not to mention other cultures.

It's easy to throw around words as if they have a different meaning. We see that here in the case of Islamic apology.

A woman wearing a head scarf or head covering is not necessarily wearing an hijab

The Hijab is indeed a head covering for women, but it has a particular purpose.

If you or I wore a covering to protect us from the sun it would have a different function from the hijab

If function didn't affect meaning then you could say I wear dresses by virtue of having a kilt.

The Hijab has a function in Islam

Mary wasn't Moslem

Therefore Mary dind't wear a Hijab

I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.

the reason why muslims women wear the head covering

is the same exact reason why mary wore the head covering

which is the same exact reason why catholic nuns, orthodox jews, hindus and orthodox nuns have been wearing it for many generations.



This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:16:17 PM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2013, 04:12:52 PM »

I was never a Muslim, but I studied Islam a little bit and attended a Mosque for a while. I think part of the appeal is the simplicity of Islamic theology. Also, many people are disillusioned with Western immorality, and they respect the fact that many Islamic societies are actually able to keep their land free from legal abortion, gay pride parades, casinos, and heretical religions (according to Islam.) Many African Americans are drawn to Islam because they see much less racism and prejudice in Islam than they do in Christianity. And the discipline is appealing to many people who feel lost without religious structure. Also, Islam is a very logical religion which naturally appeals to the Western mind.

OK, those are just my observations.



Selam   

Interesting, thanks for the input Gebre. Could it be, also, that Islam is an "easier solution" to Western immorality? What I mean is, there is less of an emphasis on spiritual struggle at least in comparison to Orthodoxy.
This could just be another example of my lack of knowledge on Islam, but I do know that "Jihad" means "struggle" in Arabic and (from what I've been told) that western Muslims usually use it to emphasise a spiritual struggle of the sorts.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope all these links are working

This is another one of those get-outs Moslems use.

Jihad means war, but can also mean struggle - that is the literal truth.

However for all intents and purposes, it is so synonymous with war as to make other use of interpretations deceptive.

A comprehensive book "The Legacy of Jihad" covers all four major Islamic schools of jurisprudence over the history of Islam to show that Jihad means war - in an Islamic sense.

Moslems think so lowly of non-Moslems that they can't even take us as close friends - so you can compare - here's three different translations of one particular verse
Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 5:
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html


Now, if you think that this verse is taken out of context, let's hear from some Moslem experts
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?
 
Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, "This is my brother," when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm
 
Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyah#Sunni_view

Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/59879
 
"Clarification of the important rule: it is haraam to take kaafirs as close friends and protectors
Praise be to Allaah.
Yes, examples will certainly explain and clarify what is meant, so we will move straight on to quoting some of the most important points that the scholars and leaders of da’wah have said about different ways of showing friendship towards kaafirs."
http://islam.worldofislam.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=601&Itemid=63
 
The Muslim should feel in his heart that he hates the kuffaar and the way they look and behave.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/2322
 
Fellow Muslims! Remoteness from Allaah causes psychological pain. Sins make one’s heart depressed and deny one of the pleasures of faith. The Kaafir is the worst of Allaah’s creatures
http://www.alminbar.com/khutbaheng/1819.htm

There's no concept in Islam (as far as I'm aware of "love thy neighbour") as there is in Christianity.

With hate enshrined in their holy books, it's very easy to wage war on non-believers

Muhammed himself encouraged murder

Here is an example of him allowing someone to lie to another in order to kill him...

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369


Again, why are you constantly referencing the salafi sunni school and their books?

as I said before there are many other sects, like the shia school that don't accept their interpretation of the religion


as for the verse you quoted out of context

I addressed this particular verse probably 5 seperate times in the other thread


it's english translation is incorrect,

it really means don't take them as allies for if they are allies of one another

ie. christian kings of the middle ages who married their children to jewish bankers so the family couldn't be revolted against when they lend out their vast wealth on interest
ie. zionists, freemasons, orangemen of the modern era, who seek profit in conquering the oil fields of the middle east and disguising their whole agenda as bringing about the prophecies of eretz yisrael


the rest of what you copied and pasted, is salafi opinion...... which don't represent all of Islam
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:13:51 PM by fibonacci » Logged
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« Reply #140 on: April 27, 2013, 04:18:05 PM »

A comprehensive book "The Legacy of Jihad" covers all four major Islamic schools of jurisprudence over the history of Islam to show that Jihad means war - in an Islamic sense.

I'm very intrigued...

Can you list for us the four major islamic schools that's covered in this book?
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« Reply #141 on: April 27, 2013, 04:24:58 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Do you know many religious traditions where monastics dress like people in the world?
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« Reply #142 on: April 27, 2013, 05:01:45 PM »

Montalban,

 I'm afraid you might be guilty of doing what non-Christians do when they pull this or that verse, this or that teaching out of context and use it against us.  You see, there are denominations of Islam (Sunni, Shi'a, Sufi, Qur'an only,...)  Then within each denomination, there are differing jurisprudence, many of which contradict each other.  Within Sunnism, for example, I think there are maybe 4 or 5 schools of jurisprudence (called Madhab).  If you were to isolate the two main sects of Islam, Sunnism and Shi'ism, for example, you will find vastly differing opinions on virtually everything.  Even the way these opinions were arrived at are vastly different.  For example, Sunni's and Shi'ites use different hadith (sayings, counsels).  Shi'ites use neo-Platonism while Sunni's generally do not.  But then when you look at the number of sub-sects (within Shi'ism, for example, there are many [Isma'ili, Twelvers, Alawi,...]) it becomes mind boggling. 

 Often times, even the same sect will have vastly differing opinions.  Some are at great odds with one another, too. 

 In short, Islam is not monolithic and we absolutely cannot take one hadith or Qur'anic verse (ayat) and hold it up to be general.   



That's a good explanation.  There are probably areas of overlap, for example, isn't there a near universal ruling of death for apostasy?  The application of the law may vary depending on how forthcoming a person is about their beliefs and where they are residing in the world, their family situation, etc. but the legal ruling remains. 

Another area of overlap is the combination of religion and state. 

In any case, individuals convert for various reasons, and unless the OP hopes to draw a thousand or so converts to Islam to an Orthodox Christian forum to elicit their reasons for converting, the answers here are likely to be conjecture.  They might get better answers if he/she were to go to an Islamic forum and ask the question.   



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« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2013, 05:02:17 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Do you know many religious traditions where monastics dress like people in the world?
Moslem women don't follow the dressing customs of  western "people in the world."
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« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2013, 05:09:12 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Do you know many religious traditions where monastics dress like people in the world?
Moslem women don't follow the dressing customs of  western "people in the world."

And neither do nuns.

A simple google search will take you to many amusing rants about how muslimahs have turned their hijabs into fashion statements rather than signs of bashfulness. The language is exactly the same as we've heard time and time again against short skirts.

But we're getting off topic. The thread is about why Westerners convert to Islam, and I doubt that veiling is very high on the list of motivations.
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« Reply #145 on: April 27, 2013, 05:15:25 PM »

My beef with Islam is that while all religions have a history of violence and terror behind them, (and admittedly, Islam often unfairly has this brought up against them) the difference is that many religions such as Orthodoxy have a central authority with authoritive doctrines and stuff like Canon laws and Patriarchs that can clearly define true Orthodoxy from false Orthodoxy and condemn the actions of radicals do not belong to the Church. Whereas, Islam--like Protestantism--does not have the same central authority and clearcut definitions of faith. There is less of an emphasis on clerical authority and doctrine is more up to the individual to determine, thus, it is harder to define true Islam from the radicals. How do you know which one is correct? The answers that Muslims have provided me seem to be the same cop-outs that Protestants give--IE "if you study the Quran with a humble heart you will know" or "read the Quran." Maybe if they re-established an authoritive Caliphate who can clearly define dogma and radicalism from true Islam then I would be more willing to take them seriously.
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« Reply #146 on: April 27, 2013, 05:18:12 PM »

My beef with Islam is that while all religions have a history of violence and terror behind them, (and admittedly, Islam often unfairly has this brought up against them) the difference is that many religions such as Orthodoxy have a central authority with authoritive doctrines and stuff like Canon laws and Patriarchs that can clearly define true Orthodoxy from false Orthodoxy and condemn the actions of radicals do not belong to the Church. Whereas, Islam--like Protestantism--does not have the same central authority and clearcut definitions of faith. There is less of an emphasis on clerical authority and doctrine is more up to the individual to determine, thus, it is harder to define true Islam from the radicals. How do you know which one is correct? The answers that Muslims have provided me seem to be the same cop-outs that Protestants give--IE "if you study the Quran with a humble heart you will know" or "read the Quran." Maybe if they re-established an authoritive Caliphate who can clearly define dogma and radicalism from true Islam then I would be more willing to take them seriously.

I really think the degree of centralization depends on the sect.
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« Reply #147 on: April 27, 2013, 05:20:40 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Do you know many religious traditions where monastics dress like people in the world?
Moslem women don't follow the dressing customs of  western "people in the world."

They do in some areas.  In fact, Persian women have had a big struggle for human rights in Iran.  Afghanistan even had some fairly liberal fashion laws before the Taliban took over.  Yeah, I said 'fashion laws'.  

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
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« Reply #148 on: April 27, 2013, 05:26:22 PM »

Gabriel, could you please reply to my earlier question about spiritual struggle if you get the chance? I think it would be helpful to hear about this from an Islam to Orthodoxy convert.

 I don't think spiritual struggles are any different in Islam than with Christianity.  For example, we've all heard the word Jihad thrown around, often way out of context.  Like all Semitic languages, Arabic words are formed from a tri-consonant root word.  The word Jihad comes from the word jhd (jahd) and it means to make an effort, to struggle.  In a religious context, it's a spiritual struggle.  Something that all Muslims generally agree on is the Greater Jihad; that is, to struggle, or make an effort in our everyday lives to do the right thing.  Often times I'm lazy about praying.  The Fathers even acknowledge that it's a struggle sometimes.  Muslims face the same struggles and temptations that everyone else face and so they make a great jihad to get up early morning, every morning and pray.  Incidentally, the lesser jihad is the 'holy war' we hear about.  

 Is that helpful?  

Thanks for the response, and I am somewhat familiar with the actual significance of jihad. However, in Orthodoxy, struggle is often considered intrinsically beneficial spiritually (e.g. in the writings of the Desert Fathers), or the means an end in themselves, and I was wondering to what extent the same was true in Islam. I hope that's phrased clearly enough.


Gabriel is more knowledgeable than I am on this subject, but my understanding from the Muslims I knew and the things they gave me to read is that the true Jihad is the inward, personal struggle against sin, temptation, etc. The true Jihad is the discipline, mindset, and lifestyle that will lead one closer to God and ultimately to paradise. The outward, physical Jihad should only be a result of the inner Jihad, which has prepared the Muslim to defend the faith forcefully but always with divine mercy guiding the Jihadist's actions. There is a "hadith" that tells of a time when Muhammad was defending himself against an adversary. He finally overpower the man and was about to thrust his sword into his neck when the adversary spit in his face. Muhammad stopped his sword in mid swing and let the adversary go. The man asked Muhammad why he had not killed him, and Muhammad said, "Because Allah forbids me to kill in anger, and when you spat on me I became angry and would have sinned had I killed you from that anger."

But there also seems to be a teaching that one can attain paradise solely by martyrdom, and therefore even if a Muslim lives a sinful life he can go to paradise if he becomes a martyr in a holy war, or outward Jihad. Sadly, it seems that some Muslims have come to view martyrdom as an easy way to go to paradise. Rather than having to wage a lifetime of the inner, spiritual Jihad, they believe they can atone for all their previous sins by blowing themselves up in what they believe to be a holy war. Every Muslim I know would condemn this mentality in the strongest possible terms. But obviously there are Muslims who tragically have adopted this way of thinking.


Selam

Thanks Gebre. I live with a devout Muslim so it's useful to hear from people who have had a foot in both camps so to speak.
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« Reply #149 on: April 27, 2013, 05:28:15 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Do you know many religious traditions where monastics dress like people in the world?
Moslem women don't follow the dressing customs of  western "people in the world."

They do in some areas.  In fact, Persian women have had a big struggle for human rights in Iran.  Afghanistan even had some fairly liberal fashion laws before the Taliban took over.  Yeah, I said 'fashion laws'.  

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
I thought someone said that the headcovering that Moslem women wear was "stupid"? I don't agree since many Orthodox nuns wear black headcovering much more conservative than some of the colorful  Moslem headcoverings we see on Moslem women.  
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« Reply #150 on: April 27, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.
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« Reply #151 on: April 27, 2013, 05:46:06 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Do you know many religious traditions where monastics dress like people in the world?
Moslem women don't follow the dressing customs of  western "people in the world."

They do in some areas.  In fact, Persian women have had a big struggle for human rights in Iran.  Afghanistan even had some fairly liberal fashion laws before the Taliban took over.  Yeah, I said 'fashion laws'.  

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
I thought someone said that the headcovering that Moslem women wear was "stupid"? I don't agree since many Orthodox nuns wear black headcovering much more conservative than some of the colorful  Moslem headcoverings we see on Moslem women.

If you were comparing Christian and Muslim nuns, there might have been a point. As it is, given that there's no such thing as Muslim nuns, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Muslim women get criticised for their colourful hijabs, as not modest enough. I think people who make laws (no kidding) about what colour headscarf women are allowed to wear have way too much time on their hands. And once a woman veils, it is practically impossible for her to unveil.
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« Reply #152 on: April 27, 2013, 06:29:22 PM »

Good grief this thread has exploded.

I'll try to get back to the stuff about Muslim hermeneutics, but in the meanwhile any decent Muslim exegete would tell you all women throughout history and all over the planet have worn a hijab.

Arachne does. Liza does. Every woman does.

The obvious context of the hijab has been reduced to rubble by the parties arguing on nearly all sides of this issue.

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« Reply #153 on: April 27, 2013, 06:52:37 PM »

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.

There are perscription drugs you can take now for self-loathing.
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« Reply #154 on: April 27, 2013, 06:54:36 PM »

Good grief this thread has exploded.

I'll try to get back to the stuff about Muslim hermeneutics, but in the meanwhile any decent Muslim exegete would tell you all women throughout history and all over the planet have worn a hijab.

Arachne does. Liza does. Every woman does.

The obvious context of the hijab has been reduced to rubble by the parties arguing on nearly all sides of this issue.



Oh come one, Orthonorm. How women tie their head covering is just as theologically important as how many fingers one uses to make the sign of the Cross. Change one little thing, and you might as well follow Paul of Samosata and his Salafi hussy.
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« Reply #155 on: April 27, 2013, 07:31:53 PM »

If you were comparing Christian and Muslim nuns, there might have been a point. As it is, given that there's no such thing as Muslim nuns, you're comparing apples and oranges.
The remark was made that the Moslem headcovering is stupid. 
We see another example of this phenomena in the estranged wife of Tamerlan who still walks around with that stupid hijab.
If Moslem women, who pray at least five times a day, take their religion as seriously as do some Christian nuns, then there is a fair comparison to be made between the headcovering worn by Christian nuns and the headcovering worn by Moslem women. I doubt anyone here contends that the black conservative headcovering worn by many Orthodox nuns is stupid.
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« Reply #156 on: April 27, 2013, 07:34:07 PM »

And once a woman veils, it is practically impossible for her to unveil.
Not true. It is customary for a Muslim women to remove her headcovering in state institutions in France. Also, I have seen cases where Muslim girls remove their headcovering when playing with Christian girls.
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« Reply #157 on: April 27, 2013, 07:45:24 PM »

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
Although it may not have been the sole motivation for a woman to convert to Islam, nevertheless, the Muslim mode of dress can serve as a motivation to some extent. After eight days of wearing the hijab, Jess Rhodes, said that she was surprised by how positive the reaction of people has been to her wearing the scarf.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21283301
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« Reply #158 on: April 27, 2013, 07:52:28 PM »

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.

There are perscription drugs you can take now for self-loathing.

Can you write me a script? I hope it's generic.
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« Reply #159 on: April 27, 2013, 08:01:27 PM »

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
Although it may not have been the sole motivation for a woman to convert to Islam, nevertheless, the Muslim mode of dress can serve as a motivation to some extent.

That is my opinion. 


After eight days of wearing the hijab, Jess Rhodes, said that she was surprised by how positive the reaction of people has been to her wearing the scarf.


Okay, so one lady thinks it's great and appears to find how others react to it to be important.  Where I live there are men who wear tights, leotards and tutus to go pick up a pack of smokes.  Some people think highly of that, too.

Some women never veiled in their home countries, but took up the veil in the United States due to political reasons.  It's also a political statement, not always an expression of freely entered religious piety or subjugation. 
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« Reply #160 on: April 27, 2013, 08:20:13 PM »

  Where I live there are men who wear tights, leotards and tutus to go pick up a pack of smokes.  Some people think highly of that, too.
Are these people you are talking about sincere Orthodox Christians with a serious devotion to their religion?
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« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2013, 09:48:12 PM »

  Where I live there are men who wear tights, leotards and tutus to go pick up a pack of smokes.  Some people think highly of that, too.
Are these people you are talking about sincere Orthodox Christians with a serious devotion to their religion?

LOL  Don't ask, don't tell.

The point was, if she is basing whether wearing an overgrown doily on her head is good by the reactions of others, it probably isn't a religious reason, but more social or political.



If you could sum up your overall point that would be great.  Otherwise, I don't really have an answer to the OP, except to suggest they look to other than Orthodox Christians for answers about why westerners find Islam attractive.
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« Reply #162 on: April 27, 2013, 10:15:06 PM »

  Where I live there are men who wear tights, leotards and tutus to go pick up a pack of smokes.  Some people think highly of that, too.
Are these people you are talking about sincere Orthodox Christians with a serious devotion to their religion?

LOL  Don't ask, don't tell....
If you could sum up your overall point that would be great.  Otherwise, I don't really have an answer to the OP, except to suggest they look to other than Orthodox Christians for answers about why westerners find Islam attractive.
Moslem women are wearing conservative clothing for religious reasons, similar to the situation with Christian nuns.  I doubt that the men you mentioned who are wearing "tights, leotards and tutus to go pick up a pack of smokes" are doing this for religious reasons. I don't see anything "stupid" with Moslem women wearing headcovering. In fact, we read in the New Testament:
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven.  For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.”  (1 Corinthians 11:3-10)
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« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2013, 10:43:56 PM »

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.

Kyrie Eleison... Abrahamic religions are not outdated, Orthodoxy predates time. Btw, Far Eastern religions are actually much older than Abrahamic Religions and Orthodoxy and Far Eastern religions are outdated because they have not heard of the faith, the new faith which is in Christ. Orthodoxy is more ethically advanced because the Church knows that we are sinners and knows that we all want to indulge in earthly cares but is constantly expecting us to become holier than we are by helping us to become holier, many Eastern faiths unfortunately do not have this true knowledge.  Far Eastern religions may appear to be less "stricter" but this is because sex is not well mentioned in the Eastern theology. However, the societies from which these faiths sprung from were and continue to be very Conservative "strict" (as they Eastern societies are less corrupted by Western modern social issues)which influenced those religions as they were and are deeply rooted in their respective cultures. Before you throw the famous ancient Hindu sexual writings and statutes at me, that's just distasteful folk art in my opinion.  The ancient liturgical heritage and scared tradition of the church is most definitely not "boring". Far East Asian religions and Hinduism have some the most sexist practices I've heard of.  

This reminds me of how years after Islam came to Persia, Central Asia and the Indian Subcontinent, many Persians and Indians wanted to eradicate some of the Middle Eastern asceticism found in those religions because it was foreign to them, which eventually lead to some Sufi movements.

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« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2013, 10:54:44 PM »

Montalban,

 I'm afraid you might be guilty of doing what non-Christians do when they pull this or that verse, this or that teaching out of context and use it against us.  You see, there are denominations of Islam (Sunni, Shi'a, Sufi, Qur'an only,...)  Then within each denomination, there are differing jurisprudence, many of which contradict each other.  Within Sunnism, for example, I think there are maybe 4 or 5 schools of jurisprudence (called Madhab).  If you were to isolate the two main sects of Islam, Sunnism and Shi'ism, for example, you will find vastly differing opinions on virtually everything.  Even the way these opinions were arrived at are vastly different.  For example, Sunni's and Shi'ites use different hadith (sayings, counsels).  Shi'ites use neo-Platonism while Sunni's generally do not.  But then when you look at the number of sub-sects (within Shi'ism, for example, there are many [Isma'ili, Twelvers, Alawi,...]) it becomes mind boggling. 

 Often times, even the same sect will have vastly differing opinions.  Some are at great odds with one another, too. 

 In short, Islam is not monolithic and we absolutely cannot take one hadith or Qur'anic verse (ayat) and hold it up to be general.   


I don't know which particular verse I quoted you refer to, however if you're talking about the meaning of Jihad, I am on firmer ground here

That's why in Legacy of Jihad it includes opinions from throughout Islam!

But one can take one verse, see what Moslems believe in it, and it they're the majority, and that the view is historically held
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« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2013, 10:56:33 PM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

Dressing conventions have changed a bit since the 1st century, not to mention other cultures.

It's easy to throw around words as if they have a different meaning. We see that here in the case of Islamic apology.

A woman wearing a head scarf or head covering is not necessarily wearing an hijab

The Hijab is indeed a head covering for women, but it has a particular purpose.

If you or I wore a covering to protect us from the sun it would have a different function from the hijab

If function didn't affect meaning then you could say I wear dresses by virtue of having a kilt.

The Hijab has a function in Islam

Mary wasn't Moslem

Therefore Mary dind't wear a Hijab

I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.

the reason why muslims women wear the head covering

is the same exact reason why mary wore the head covering

which is the same exact reason why catholic nuns, orthodox jews, hindus and orthodox nuns have been wearing it for many generations.




I already covered this. If semantics doesn't matter than Scotsmen wear dresses.

Words have meaning. You're trying to make an argument by drawing two things together because they appear similar.

In fact that is an argument on semantics too.


Your argument is ultimately self-defeating. If any kind of head covering for women is a Hijab, then Islam would have no problem with bonnets, hats, etc. But clearly it does. In some Islamic countries they require only the face to be left uncovered. Yemen has places where even that is too revealing.

A mere headscarf is for you a 'hijab'

Words have meanings. Your argument by way of semantics backfires.
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« Reply #166 on: April 27, 2013, 10:58:19 PM »

This is a good point. If the Orthodox posters here claim that dressing conventions have changed, why then do we see Orthodox nuns dressing even  more conservatively  than the Moslem women? The Orthodox nuns' dress is all black, whereas we see the Moslem women with their colorful headcovering and stylish shoes.

Only if you accept his argument of semantics and charge mine with the only one being of semantics!

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« Reply #167 on: April 27, 2013, 11:01:16 PM »

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.

Actually no. As as sexism goes, Theravada Buddhism (and maybe others) teach that only men can reach enlightenment. And Theravada is easily a thousand times more popular than all that Zen and Tibetan stuff that might seem cool. All of them have high sexual ethics, the Buddha said if there was another thing like the attraction of women enlightenment would be impossible. A lot of Hindu denominations believe sex is solely for procreation, never for recreation. And you have to pray for 2 hours after you do it. Buddhism says nothing about evolution, but Hindus definitely are generally against it. Hindu creationism is bigger than Christian creationism, and they believe humanity is falling and still falling, we're devolving actually and just getting worse until the end of this age when God is going to come back again. They believe humanity has been around for billions of years, which so it is really no easier than young earth creationism.
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« Reply #168 on: April 27, 2013, 11:01:40 PM »

Gabriel is more knowledgeable than I am on this subject, but my understanding from the Muslims I knew and the things they gave me to read is that the true Jihad is the inward, personal struggle against sin, temptation, etc. The true Jihad is the discipline, mindset, and lifestyle that will lead one closer to God and ultimately to paradise. The outward, physical Jihad should only be a result of the inner Jihad, which has prepared the Muslim to defend the faith forcefully but always with divine mercy guiding the Jihadist's actions. There is a "hadith" that tells of a time when Muhammad was defending himself against an adversary. He finally overpower the man and was about to thrust his sword into his neck when the adversary spit in his face. Muhammad stopped his sword in mid swing and let the adversary go. The man asked Muhammad why he had not killed him, and Muhammad said, "Because Allah forbids me to kill in anger, and when you spat on me I became angry and would have sinned had I killed you from that anger."

But there also seems to be a teaching that one can attain paradise solely by martyrdom, and therefore even if a Muslim lives a sinful life he can go to paradise if he becomes a martyr in a holy war, or outward Jihad. Sadly, it seems that some Muslims have come to view martyrdom as an easy way to go to paradise. Rather than having to wage a lifetime of the inner, spiritual Jihad, they believe they can atone for all their previous sins by blowing themselves up in what they believe to be a holy war. Every Muslim I know would condemn this mentality in the strongest possible terms. But obviously there are Muslims who tragically have adopted this way of thinking.


Selam

Jihad by 'inward struggle' is a legitimate Islamic thing. To simply take that to mean "Jihad" in general is historically false. Jihad is more about outward struggle; ie. war.

Muhammed himself is the prime example of knowing what the context is; he ordered raids on caravans, the execution of political opponents. He over saw the murder of PoWs. All of this is 'outward' Jihad.

Even if they were both equally valid in Islam it still doesn't help Islam because it's still saying war is legitimate. A point you have missed.
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« Reply #169 on: April 27, 2013, 11:03:27 PM »

Personally, I don't get what's so attractive about the Abrahamic religions at all. They're probably the most outdated, strict, offensive, hateful, boring religions that have ever existed and that's the honest truth--I admit it as a belonger to an Abrahamic religion. Eastern religions like Buddhism or Taoism are easily more appealing and socially advanced. Adhering to an Abrahamic religion means you need to try to justify sexism, genocide, violence, outdated rules about sex, Evolution and a bunch of other stuff. However, the Far Eastern religions are much looser, less strict, more ethically advanced and less sexist.

Dude, would it possible for you to go a few days without constructing paragraphs full of wrong, uninformed sentences? Seriously, if you caught on fire, the room would be redolent of burnt wrongness.
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« Reply #170 on: April 27, 2013, 11:03:59 PM »

Again, why are you constantly referencing the salafi sunni school and their books?
Again you whinning about something and not addressing my posts
as I said before there are many other sects, like the shia school that don't accept their interpretation of the religion

You're more than welcome to bring in your context. But you don't. So far yours has been a series of posts appealing to incredulity, or speculation on my personal motivation, or directing me vaguely to a post you've posted somewhere else.
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« Reply #171 on: April 27, 2013, 11:15:02 PM »

A comprehensive book "The Legacy of Jihad" covers all four major Islamic schools of jurisprudence over the history of Islam to show that Jihad means war - in an Islamic sense.

I'm very intrigued...

Can you list for us the four major islamic schools that's covered in this book?

so you can ignore it?

Okay...

He deals with Averroes (Maliki school), Ibn Taymiyya (Hanbali), Shaybani (Hanafi), al-Mawardi (Shafi'i), Ibn Quadama (Hanbali) and Ibn Khaldun (Maliki)

He also covers Shi'a and Sufi commentators too.



You can note I cite sources


It's a great resource
http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Jihad-Andrew-Bostom-M-D/dp/1591026024/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367118878&sr=8-1&keywords=legacy+of+jihad
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« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2013, 11:24:21 PM »

I agree with Arachne, fashion is probably not one of the major reasons why people convert to a religion.  I would go one step further and say if fashion, in particular women's fashion, is the main motivator for conversion to a religion, then perhaps that isn't the best reason to convert.  
Although it may not have been the sole motivation for a woman to convert to Islam, nevertheless, the Muslim mode of dress can serve as a motivation to some extent. After eight days of wearing the hijab, Jess Rhodes, said that she was surprised by how positive the reaction of people has been to her wearing the scarf.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21283301


And yet it's based on illogic.

Some time ago I saw a program on tv about women in Sheffield, UK who had converted to Islam. One said that wearing the covering made her feel protected as she was no longer viewed as a sex object. She talked about the moral decadence in western society etc. She was moving to Yemen the place of birth for her husband. In the doco she was trying on a covering that included the face, which she'd have to wear in Yemen. It struck me as illogical.

If the west is decadent and Yemen is this wonderful Islamic society then she should have to be MORE covered up in the UK, not more covered up in Yemen - because they're all good Moslems there are we're decadent westerners!



I have cited here two Islamic articles that say that women have to put out for their husbands any time he wants sex.

No one has commented on how offensive that attitude is. At best people are going on about head coverings.
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« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2013, 11:43:23 PM »

Gabriel is more knowledgeable than I am on this subject, but my understanding from the Muslims I knew and the things they gave me to read is that the true Jihad is the inward, personal struggle against sin, temptation, etc. The true Jihad is the discipline, mindset, and lifestyle that will lead one closer to God and ultimately to paradise. The outward, physical Jihad should only be a result of the inner Jihad, which has prepared the Muslim to defend the faith forcefully but always with divine mercy guiding the Jihadist's actions. There is a "hadith" that tells of a time when Muhammad was defending himself against an adversary. He finally overpower the man and was about to thrust his sword into his neck when the adversary spit in his face. Muhammad stopped his sword in mid swing and let the adversary go. The man asked Muhammad why he had not killed him, and Muhammad said, "Because Allah forbids me to kill in anger, and when you spat on me I became angry and would have sinned had I killed you from that anger."

But there also seems to be a teaching that one can attain paradise solely by martyrdom, and therefore even if a Muslim lives a sinful life he can go to paradise if he becomes a martyr in a holy war, or outward Jihad. Sadly, it seems that some Muslims have come to view martyrdom as an easy way to go to paradise. Rather than having to wage a lifetime of the inner, spiritual Jihad, they believe they can atone for all their previous sins by blowing themselves up in what they believe to be a holy war. Every Muslim I know would condemn this mentality in the strongest possible terms. But obviously there are Muslims who tragically have adopted this way of thinking.


Selam

Jihad by 'inward struggle' is a legitimate Islamic thing. To simply take that to mean "Jihad" in general is historically false. Jihad is more about outward struggle; ie. war.

Muhammed himself is the prime example of knowing what the context is; he ordered raids on caravans, the execution of political opponents. He over saw the murder of PoWs. All of this is 'outward' Jihad.

Even if they were both equally valid in Islam it still doesn't help Islam because it's still saying war is legitimate. A point you have missed.

I'm not an apologist for Islam. I was merely trying to address the OP by sharing what little I learned about Islam from the time I spent attending Mosques and from my Muslim friends. So I wasn't trying to make any particular point.


Selam
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« Reply #174 on: April 28, 2013, 12:01:25 AM »

....who still walks around with that stupid hijab.

look at any picture of Mary mother of Jesus

Tell me, do you think her hijab is stupid aswell?

Dressing conventions have changed a bit since the 1st century, not to mention other cultures.

It's easy to throw around words as if they have a different meaning. We see that here in the case of Islamic apology.

A woman wearing a head scarf or head covering is not necessarily wearing an hijab

The Hijab is indeed a head covering for women, but it has a particular purpose.

If you or I wore a covering to protect us from the sun it would have a different function from the hijab

If function didn't affect meaning then you could say I wear dresses by virtue of having a kilt.

The Hijab has a function in Islam

Mary wasn't Moslem

Therefore Mary dind't wear a Hijab

I find it funny you are trying to use semantics when you're making an argument.

the reason why muslims women wear the head covering

is the same exact reason why mary wore the head covering

which is the same exact reason why catholic nuns, orthodox jews, hindus and orthodox nuns have been wearing it for many generations.




I hope this thread doesn't turn into another head-covering debate. In Islam, women cover their mainly because of modesty. In the Holy Orthodox Christian Church, women cover their hair in observance of four main reasons: the first is because it is commanded by the Apostle Paul in the Holy Scriptures. Secondly, because of particular reverence for holy prayer and respect for liturgy by separating the unholy from the holy (women cover their hair during prayer and liturgies). Thirdly, because of holy tradition, it is an ancient tradition passed down from the Judaic mothers. Also, because of modesty but not completely because of modesty. Christian women are also supposed to cover but are not required to. Orthodox nuns fully cover themselves, this is part of the extremity of their commitment to God and ascetic practices. It also a pious practice of elderly female Orthodox widows to cover their hair forever after their spouse dies.



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« Reply #175 on: April 28, 2013, 12:12:16 AM »

From the 700 Club website, their Arab ministry makes a good point:

Quote
Finally, there is a third factor which probably no one would ever mention explicitly, for obvious reasons, but which, I believe, is nevertheless important. This is the fact that Islam offers a conversion experience and the opportunity to get one's life in order, without needing to confess ones sin and need of salvation. In fact, Islam makes quite a point of denying these truths. It tells people they do not need salvation; all they need is to follow the "guidance" of God's law, and they will make it to heaven. That is something the natural man likes to hear.

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/why_are_westerners_converting.aspx



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« Reply #176 on: April 28, 2013, 12:27:20 AM »



I have cited here two Islamic articles that say that women have to put out for their husbands any time he wants sex.

No one has commented on how offensive that attitude is.
Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the Wife in Islam
He must exercise patience and be prepared to listen to her advice in every situation
He must control his passions and act in a moderate manner
He must exercise patience and forgiveness
Etc.

http://www.sunnah.org/msaec/articles/responsibilities_husband.htm
Christian teaching in Scripture is clear:
Ephesians: 22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
According to the teaching of the rector of St. Spyridon Greek Orthodox Church:
A wife must render her husband the humble submission, profound respect, and obedience that are due to the Lord by every Christian, for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church.
http://www.saint-spyridon.com/msg0903.htm
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« Reply #177 on: April 28, 2013, 01:02:20 AM »


I'm not an apologist for Islam. I was merely trying to address the OP by sharing what little I learned about Islam from the time I spent attending Mosques and from my Muslim friends. So I wasn't trying to make any particular point.

Selam

I don't say you're an apologist. I simply point out that even if one accepts 'inward struggle' as a form of jihad it doesn't negate 'outward struggle' (or war).
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« Reply #178 on: April 28, 2013, 01:03:17 AM »

Some Responsibilities of the Husband and Rights of the Wife in Islam
He must exercise patience and be prepared to listen to her advice in every situation
He must control his passions and act in a moderate manner
He must exercise patience and forgiveness
Etc.
Yes, I'm aware that they're sexist. He's deemed to be the master, in intellect etc. so naturally enough he has to instruct her.
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« Reply #179 on: April 28, 2013, 01:09:38 AM »

I hope this thread doesn't turn into another head-covering debate. In Islam, women cover their mainly because of modesty

That's not wholly the reason. Moslems argue that women who are 'imodest' attract certain attention, and thus are responsible if they're raped

Sheik Hilali was the leader of Australia's Moslems
Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
 
Muslim cleric: women incite men's lust with 'satanic dress'
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-cleric-women-incite-mens-lust-with-satanic-dress/2005/04/23/1114152362381.html

So it's not just for modesty, but 'protection'.

Sydney's Sheik got backing from within Australia.
The Islamic Council of WA's religious adviser, Abdul Jalil Ahmad, says while rape is the man's fault, women should take preventative measures to avoid being targeted.
He says those measures include covering up and being accompanied when outdoors.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1777679.htm
Fortunately there was a lonely Islamic voice arguing against this!
 
 
Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid said...
"Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime."
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_351_400/rape_against_muslim_women.htm
also cited at
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1125407868541
 
Thus when this Sheikh in Sydney was calling for women to be kept at home he probably very sincerely thought that this was indeed the best way of protecting them. He's just so out of touch with western values.
 
No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality...‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women.
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/1105
Further, from the same site
 
" The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women."
 
"And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.
 
With regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation. "

and finally
'For her to be absolved from guilt, a raped woman must have shown good conduct'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/11/ncleric11.xml

As to turning this into a debate about head-covering, it will so long as relativists try 'tu quoque' apology for Islam being inherently sexist

Women in Islam are deemed to be biologically inferior

Many woman suffer depression and stress during their period, especially at
the beginning, and their mental and intellectual state is at the lowest
level during menstruation.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/43028
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