Author Topic: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?  (Read 2085 times)

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Offline WPM

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Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« on: April 22, 2013, 08:25:28 PM »
Could you build a wood altar for worshipping outdoors? Wondering, thanks.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 08:25:56 PM by WPM »

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 09:32:12 PM »
Sure. Why not?  :)
"This is the cross - to become dead to the whole world, to suffer sorrows, temptations and other passions of Christ; in bearing this cross with complete patience, we imitate Christ's passion and thus glorify our God the Father as His sons in grace and co-heirs of Christ." --St. Symeon the New Theologian

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 12:40:17 AM »


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Offline Salpy

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 01:11:21 AM »
Aren't altars supposed to be carved out of stone?  In the back of my mind, I seem to recall something like that.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 08:58:50 AM »

Not necessarily.  From what I've heard, they are to be made of natural materials (stone, wood, ....) and not have any nails holding them together.  In other words they are carved with dove tails or other joints.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2013, 09:59:59 AM »
Could you build a wood altar for worshipping outdoors? Wondering, thanks.
During communism, they had a lot for use in the woods.  Some on carts.
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Offline mike

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 10:18:23 AM »
and not have any nails holding them together

You sure?

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Offline LBK

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 10:28:57 AM »
and not have any nails holding them together

You sure?



Where are the nails in that altar?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline mike

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 10:35:53 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 10:47:17 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline mike

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 10:50:29 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 10:58:41 AM »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 11:07:00 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline mike

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2013, 11:20:20 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.

I know what I am saying.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2013, 11:22:48 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.

I know what I am saying.

Do you have an electronic copy of the Euchologion? Perhaps a scan of the page you are referring to?

Offline mike

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2013, 11:33:13 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.

I know what I am saying.

Do you have an electronic copy of the Euchologion? Perhaps a scan of the page you are referring to?

Sure: http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/swiatynia/poswiecenie_biskup.pdf
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2013, 11:49:41 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.

I know what I am saying.

Do you have an electronic copy of the Euchologion? Perhaps a scan of the page you are referring to?

Sure: http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/swiatynia/poswiecenie_biskup.pdf

In Polish does gwoźdz mean anything other than nail? Like rod or stud?

Offline mike

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2013, 12:01:20 PM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.

I know what I am saying.

Do you have an electronic copy of the Euchologion? Perhaps a scan of the page you are referring to?

Sure: http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/swiatynia/poswiecenie_biskup.pdf

In Polish does gwoźdz mean anything other than nail? Like rod or stud?

No.

It may be a translation error, though.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2013, 01:11:07 PM »

They are wooden pegs.  Four of them are used to affix the table to the altar, representative of the four nails used to crucify Christ.



The stones which are used for this purpose are not thrown away, but, usually placed under the table.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2013, 03:10:10 PM »
Wow,- it looks like thats already being done & finished.

Offline mildert

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2013, 04:33:19 AM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

You might want to check what the word in your euchologion means. For instance, even in modern English, the word pin can simply mean a rod used for attaching or linking two pieces of material, not necessarily the fine, sharp metal thing that tailors and seamstresses use to hold fabric together.

I know what I am saying.

Do you have an electronic copy of the Euchologion? Perhaps a scan of the page you are referring to?

Sure: http://liturgia.cerkiew.pl/euch/swiatynia/poswiecenie_biskup.pdf

In Polish does gwoźdz mean anything other than nail? Like rod or stud?

No.

It may be a translation error, though.

Actually, I have seen nails used in Russia.
In XC,

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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2013, 09:44:41 AM »

"The holy relics were placed inside the altar table, which was made entirely of wood with no metal nails or staples because metal nails were used to crucify Jesus Christ, Father Matthew said."

http://www.toledoblade.com/Religion/2003/11/01/Rites-mark-St-George-consecration.html

                             
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline sheenj

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2013, 10:16:36 AM »

"The holy relics were placed inside the altar table, which was made entirely of wood with no metal nails or staples because metal nails were used to crucify Jesus Christ, Father Matthew said."
                             


They are wooden pegs.  Four of them are used to affix the table to the altar, representative of the four nails used to crucify Christ.


This seems contradictory to me.

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2013, 10:32:11 AM »

One set is wooden, and the other was metal.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2013, 10:34:46 AM »

One set is wooden, and the other was metal.

I fail to see the reasoning behind not allowing metal nails, especially if using rods in the first place is to represent the nails that wounded Our Lord.

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2013, 10:46:00 AM »

"The holy relics were placed inside the altar table, which was made entirely of wood with no metal nails or staples because metal nails were used to crucify Jesus Christ, Father Matthew said."
                             


They are wooden pegs.  Four of them are used to affix the table to the altar, representative of the four nails used to crucify Christ.


This seems contradictory to me.

It seems contradictory because it is. All of these symbolic references are fine, but there is not one answer. You need something to keep the altar together. It would seem in northern climates wood works, find me an altar made of wood in the Mediterranean. You can not use dowels or nails in marble. You will see stone altars set on 5 pillars. Are those 5 pillars representing 5 of something, or do 5 pillars just make an ascetically pleasing and sturdy base for an altar?
Joseph

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2013, 11:07:34 AM »

The 5 pillars - Christ is the middle one, and the four corner ones are the Four Evangelists.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2013, 11:12:11 AM »

The 5 pillars - Christ is the middle one, and the four corner ones are the Four Evangelists.

That is one symbolic meaning. How about the 5 great councils of the church, or the 5 elements, or the 5 ancient patriarchates. I am not saying the symbolism is bad, just that we should not get hung up on it as the only answer.
Joseph

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2013, 11:15:08 AM »

Everything Orthodox is filled with symbolism.

Even the Divine Liturgy....each and every "act" of the priest may have several symbolic meanings.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2013, 11:18:42 AM »

Everything Orthodox is filled with symbolism.

Even the Divine Liturgy....each and every "act" of the priest may have several symbolic meanings.


A lot of the symbolism was attached afterward. Especially to things of a practical matter. Take the Ripidia for example, it was originally used to keep insects from the Sacred Gifts but we attached the imagery of Seraphs to them to symbolize the presence of the Angels.

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 01:28:36 PM »
Just a side note, the intensity of feelings that this seemingly innocuous question evokes, points to one of our uniquely"diaspora" problems. There are so many opinions, traditions, customs etc.. which in the big picture may be relatively trivial but a unified Orthodox administrative body not respecting them (within reason) is bound to fail.

As many of you know our ACROD has recently elected a non Slav of Greek American background as Bishop. He is marvelous and is quickly being accepted as he travels the Diocese and gets to know us. Last Sunday,I was in suburban Philadelphia where Bishop Gregory was hosting a Lenten Retreat. He made a comment really on point. Speaking to the obviousness of his Hellenic heritage he mentioned that he had heard some choral arrangements that day for the first time and every parish he wen to, he was learning "our ways." He laughed and said that for five years he was the itinerant preacher and confessor in GOAA' s Metropolis of Atlanta. He visited 60 of the 71 widely scattered parishes and he learned something important. He assumed for the first 50 years of his life that the way things were done at home, or at seminary were the Greek way. His travels opened his eyes to the understanding that while there was general "way"  of doing things, it varied by where the pastor grew up, what part of Greece the parish founders came from, what was the demographic composition of the parish and so on. Even two parishes in the same city under the same bishop were not identical.

Anyway, his observations seemed relevant to this discussion.

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 01:43:06 PM »

Everything Orthodox is filled with symbolism.

Even the Divine Liturgy....each and every "act" of the priest may have several symbolic meanings.


However the "symbolism" is often an after the fact embellishment for something that initially meant to be much more utilitarian so to speak. This doesn't diminish the symbolism, but one I think should be honest about the order of things, otherwise you might get rocked once you* see an altar with metal nails once you've always been told about the symbolism of wooden ones.

*generic you
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »
In any case, an interesting thread!
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2013, 05:56:32 PM »

"The holy relics were placed inside the altar table, which was made entirely of wood with no metal nails or staples because metal nails were used to crucify Jesus Christ, Father Matthew said."

http://www.toledoblade.com/Religion/2003/11/01/Rites-mark-St-George-consecration.html

                             

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2013, 05:59:04 PM »

As was mentioned countless times on this thread, it appears there are many traditions, and therefore, yours is right for you, and someone else's is right for them.

Just because you do things one way, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2013, 10:31:11 PM »
Where are the nails in that altar?

In the corners. Aren't these rocks for beating them?

That isn't a nail in the corner, it's a wooden dowel.

The euchologion I have an access too states rocks are for beating nails.

Obviously a mistranslation of "stoning heretics." Or a euphemism.
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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2013, 10:38:01 PM »

Everything Orthodox is filled with symbolism.

Even the Divine Liturgy....each and every "act" of the priest may have several symbolic meanings.


Not everything. People thought our priest holding the Gospel while giving a sermon--holding it in the manner bishops do in icons--was symbolic. It wasn't. He holds it for a security blanket and he puts his phelonion around it so as not to tarnish it with his hands. That is all.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 10:40:54 PM »

"The holy relics were placed inside the altar table, which was made entirely of wood with no metal nails or staples because metal nails were used to crucify Jesus Christ, Father Matthew said."

http://www.toledoblade.com/Religion/2003/11/01/Rites-mark-St-George-consecration.html

                             

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I would too, unless the Euchologion was published in America.
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Offline mildert

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2013, 07:34:53 AM »
A picture of a Dedication of an Altar in Russia using metal nails.

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Deacon Philip

Offline Schultz

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2013, 09:17:37 AM »

As was mentioned countless times on this thread, it appears there are many traditions, and therefore, yours is right for you, and someone else's is right for them.

Just because you do things one way, doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.


Michal wasn't the one making authoritative statements.  He merely said that in his neck of the woods, using nails was accepted.  It was other people telling him that he was wrong.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Can you build wooden altar for outdoors worship?
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2013, 09:37:32 AM »

Well, it seems there are many ways to accomplish the same thing.

In my neck of the woods, no metal nails are ever used in constructing Holy Tables.

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