OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 07:07:17 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Organize by nation or region? (split from Two of the largest eparchies of the UAOC join the UOC-KP)  (Read 838 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,477


Pokrov


WWW
« on: April 10, 2013, 09:18:43 PM »

We are so stuck on models that were developed for reasons of state that we cannot see a simple solution. Let's look past the Roman, Ottoman, Russian Empire models, as well as the nation/state models that came about in the 19th Century. Let's look back to the Holy Scriptures and to the Apostolic Church instead. What we have is the Great Commission that tells us to bring into Christ's Body all nations, as well as city-churches that were ontologically complete (Ruling bishop surrounded by his priests, deacons and laity). You go forward in time a bit and in the Apostolic Canon 34 we see the principle of how to get organized beyond the city-church level (today's equivalent being a diocese). You have a Metropolitan or senior bishop, a primate (first among equals) whose job is to make sure that unanimity of the ruling bishops is required to change anything affecting all dioceses.

Applying this concept to the Ukraine, you could have two local churches, one composed of the dioceses that want to be part of an autocephalous church and another one composed of dioceses that want to be part of the ROC (Krasnodar comes to mind). You could even have a national coordinating body composed of members of the Holy Synod of the presumably autocephalous Ukrainian Church and of the presumably autonomous Ukrainian Church-ROC. Since the basic governing principle is unanimity, it would not make a difference who chairs this coordinating body--they could take turns. Of course, this approach would not work at all if the respective churches see themselves as primarily Russians or Ukrainians, or if they become entangled with the respective states. Nonetheless, this is the only approach consistent with the Great Commission.

You hit the nail on the head. The modern nation state is primarily a post 1848 development. As we speak,  that paradigm is changing due to modern technology and new immigration patterns. Thinking outside the box is necessary here but comes with difficulty for Orthodoxy.
Logged
Pravoslaven Makedonec
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Macedonian Orthodox
Posts: 37



« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 09:37:31 PM »

This is the same as what Serbian OC is doing toe the Macedonian OC. No one has jurisdiction over anyone, it is only those that think they are all powerful like the ROC and the GOC that think they can make or break a Church. They dont have the power only God does.
Logged

1 Солунјани: 1:8 Зашто, од вас Господовото слово се разгласи не само во Македонија и Ахаја, туку вашата вера во Бога се расшири во секое место, така што нема потреба ние да зборуваме нешто.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 11:10:43 PM »

This is the same as what Serbian OC is doing toe the Macedonian OC. No one has jurisdiction over anyone, it is only those that think they are all powerful like the ROC and the GOC that think they can make or break a Church. They dont have the power only God does.
Do tell the Macedonian government that, in regard to their (mis)treatment of Arbp. Jovan.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Pravoslaven Makedonec
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Macedonian Orthodox
Posts: 37



« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2013, 02:29:33 AM »

Im not talking about governments Im talking about the Churches themselves. What you are talking about is different and not related to this topic, you all seem to forget the money laundering and other crimes he committed. I dont wont to get into that does not concern me. 
Logged

1 Солунјани: 1:8 Зашто, од вас Господовото слово се разгласи не само во Македонија и Ахаја, туку вашата вера во Бога се расшири во секое место, така што нема потреба ние да зборуваме нешто.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,833



« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2013, 10:00:06 AM »

Im not talking about governments Im talking about the Churches themselves. What you are talking about is different and not related to this topic, you all seem to forget the money laundering and other crimes he committed. I dont wont to get into that does not concern me.  

May I correct what you just wrote? I do not think that anyone can say that Archbishop Jovan had committed "money laundering and other crimes." What anyone would know are the following public reports:

- Ever since he sided with the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Archbishop has been accused and convicted of various offenses. The money laundering issue has been tried and tried again, with the trial courts mostly finding him not guilty and the Appeals Court disagreeing and sending the case back for retrial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Jovan_VI_of_Ohrid#Reactions_of_the_state

- The reaction of the international bodies have been uniformly critical of the actions taken by the Republic of Macedonia against Archbishop Jovan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Jovan_VI_of_Ohrid#International_reactions

- The reactions of the canonical Orthodox Churches have also been critical of the latest imprisonment of the Archbishop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Jovan_VI_of_Ohrid#Reactions_of_the_Orthodox_churches

So, please exercise some restraint in the future and qualify your accusation of criminal conduct by using such words as "allegedly" or "accused of." Indeed, please do check the rules to refresh your memory about such accusations.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 10:22:01 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2013, 10:08:26 AM »

Im not talking about governments Im talking about the Churches themselves.

So am I.
What you are talking about is different and not related to this topic, you all seem to forget the money laundering and other crimes he committed. I dont wont to get into that does not concern me. 
you just did.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say Archbishop Jovan is-God forbid!-guilty of the various crimes he has been acquitted of.  Then the Holy Synod would depose him.  They haven't-the government has just imprisoned him.  As such, Abp. Jovan remains the canonical primate of the Orthodox Church in Macedonia.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Putnik Namernik
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 482



« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2013, 05:08:14 PM »

Im not talking about governments Im talking about the Churches themselves. What you are talking about is different and not related to this topic, you all seem to forget the money laundering and other crimes he committed. I dont wont to get into that does not concern me. 
it's always those darn Serbs causing the problems...
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »

Im not talking about governments Im talking about the Churches themselves. What you are talking about is different and not related to this topic, you all seem to forget the money laundering and other crimes he committed. I dont wont to get into that does not concern me. 
it's always those darn Serbs causing the problems...
...just ask any Croat.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Putnik Namernik
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 482



« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 02:08:15 AM »

Im not talking about governments Im talking about the Churches themselves. What you are talking about is different and not related to this topic, you all seem to forget the money laundering and other crimes he committed. I dont wont to get into that does not concern me. 
it's always those darn Serbs causing the problems...
...just ask any Croat.
Grin that's human nature to blame others...Adam blamed Eve...I have faith in God that jurisdictional problems will be resolved, but  at the same time they are not essential to one's belief. I have a good friend who is Macedonian and think of him as a Great Christian even though MOC is not in communion with the rest of EO. Same can be said for Greek Oldcalendarists (and those of other jurisdictions) as well as part of Rocor which has not joined MP...It is unfortunate that we are not all united, but as long as we confess the same faith I am not worried...
Logged
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,753



« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 12:57:36 AM »

I have no comment about this.

but I do believe there are too many patriarchs in the world.
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Napoletani
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 131



« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 07:05:19 AM »

Alexander the Great spoke some slavic bulgarian language?Huh Macedonian?
Logged

Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,833



« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 08:30:33 AM »

Alexander the Great spoke some slavic bulgarian language?Huh Macedonian?

This is an informal warning. Let's keep to the topic, please. A discussion of what makes a Macedonian belongs to Politics, not here. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 07:08:11 AM »

I guess, we could expect an Estonian / Moldovan situation during the next years, rather than autocephaly...

So who will make the "Apostolic" one since there already is the "Russian" one.

BTW, define "mother Church".
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Napoletani
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 131



« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2013, 05:33:24 AM »

The Mother Church of Ukraine is Constantinople. I do not see why autocephaly should come from Moscow. In practice however, if Constantinople were to grant autocephaly to Ukraine, that would not be recognised by Moscow, and maybe some other local churches such as Serbia.

I guess, we could expect an Estonian / Moldovan situation during the next years, rather than autocephaly...

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.
Logged

Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2013, 06:39:43 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.
Logged
Napoletani
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 131



« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2013, 07:38:15 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

A lot because of communism, and yet a minority. Moldova will soon unite again with Romania anyway. In this case, ethnicity and history have a role to play. Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.
Logged

Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
TheMathematician
Banished and Disgraced
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 1,476


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2013, 07:58:53 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

A lot because of communism, and yet a minority. Moldova will soon unite again with Romania anyway. In this case, ethnicity and history have a role to play. Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.

because Kosovo is not an independent country.
Logged

SCREW BON JOVI!
Napoletani
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 131



« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2013, 08:25:29 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

A lot because of communism, and yet a minority. Moldova will soon unite again with Romania anyway. In this case, ethnicity and history have a role to play. Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.

because Kosovo is not an independent country.

As soon as it is recognised by some, yes it is. De facto it is independant from Serbia. Yet, nobody will say that we need a kosovar Church. Same with Moldova, wich will soo reunite.
Logged

Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2013, 08:39:13 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

Well Bessarabia (of which modern Moldova, minus Transdnistria, is the main part) is part of the canonical territory of the Romanian church, as is northern Bucovina. Neither the fact that Stalin annexed them to the USSR nor the current ethnic makeup of the annexed areas should be enough to change that. Do you seriously see autocephalous churches delimited by national boundaries as a good thing? I'd definitely argue the reverse. I think we made a mistake creating so many autocephalous churches when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, I certainly wouldn't advocate adding to the number as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2013, 08:41:32 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

A lot because of communism, and yet a minority. Moldova will soon unite again with Romania anyway. In this case, ethnicity and history have a role to play. Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.

I'm curious as to what makes you believe that Moldova will soon reunite with Romania. Have you heard something concrete? You see I've been hearing rumours of this ever since the mid-'90s and it's not happened yet.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2013, 09:20:02 AM »

Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.

The status of Kosovo is still controversial. But if it ever becomes a universally recognised independent country, I would strongly endorse an autocephalous Orthodox Church in Kosovo. In fact, as long as Orthodoxy in Kosovo is Serbian Orthodoxy, outreach to ethnic Albanians is close to impossible. An autocephalous church, both comprising ethnic Serbs and receiving Albanian monastics and misisonary priests from Albania would have much better chances.
Logged
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2013, 10:20:33 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

Well Bessarabia (of which modern Moldova, minus Transdnistria, is the main part) is part of the canonical territory of the Romanian church, as is northern Bucovina. Neither the fact that Stalin annexed them to the USSR nor the current ethnic makeup of the annexed areas should be enough to change that. Do you seriously see autocephalous churches delimited by national boundaries as a good thing? I'd definitely argue the reverse. I think we made a mistake creating so many autocephalous churches when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, I certainly wouldn't advocate adding to the number as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

James

So if my understanding is correct, you think the creation of the Bulgarian, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox Patriarchates were a mistake?
Logged
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2013, 10:26:44 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

Well Bessarabia (of which modern Moldova, minus Transdnistria, is the main part) is part of the canonical territory of the Romanian church, as is northern Bucovina. Neither the fact that Stalin annexed them to the USSR nor the current ethnic makeup of the annexed areas should be enough to change that. Do you seriously see autocephalous churches delimited by national boundaries as a good thing? I'd definitely argue the reverse. I think we made a mistake creating so many autocephalous churches when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, I certainly wouldn't advocate adding to the number as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

James

So if my understanding is correct, you think the creation of the Bulgarian, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox Patriarchates were a mistake?

I think it was unwise and set a precedent for all our nationalistic/phyletistic problems post the breakup of the Soviet Empire, yes. Autonomous churches under the EP would have made more sense to my mind, but given the situation at the time I understand why this would have had its own issues. What's done is done, however. I certainly don't believe that we should be encouraging more and more autocephalous churches every time a state fragments, however. What purpose would that serve except to bolster the already far too common nationalistic elements in Orthodoxy. There's no reason whatsoever that the autocephalous churches should mirror state boundaries (or ethnic groups which often amounts to much the same thing). They didn't in the early centuries and they shouldn't now.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Napoletani
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 131



« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 10:40:26 AM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

A lot because of communism, and yet a minority. Moldova will soon unite again with Romania anyway. In this case, ethnicity and history have a role to play. Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.

I'm curious as to what makes you believe that Moldova will soon reunite with Romania. Have you heard something concrete? You see I've been hearing rumours of this ever since the mid-'90s and it's not happened yet.

James

My hope and Faith make me believe it  Wink
Logged

Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 01:12:49 PM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

A lot because of communism, and yet a minority. Moldova will soon unite again with Romania anyway. In this case, ethnicity and history have a role to play. Should we also have a Church of Kosovo, not the serbian one since it is an independant country? I dont think so.

I'm curious as to what makes you believe that Moldova will soon reunite with Romania. Have you heard something concrete? You see I've been hearing rumours of this ever since the mid-'90s and it's not happened yet.

James

My hope and Faith make me believe it  Wink
and the example of Germany.  If Moldova cut Transnistria loose, it would be a done deal.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 01:26:13 PM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

Well Bessarabia (of which modern Moldova, minus Transdnistria, is the main part) is part of the canonical territory of the Romanian church, as is northern Bucovina. Neither the fact that Stalin annexed them to the USSR nor the current ethnic makeup of the annexed areas should be enough to change that. Do you seriously see autocephalous churches delimited by national boundaries as a good thing? I'd definitely argue the reverse. I think we made a mistake creating so many autocephalous churches when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, I certainly wouldn't advocate adding to the number as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

James

So if my understanding is correct, you think the creation of the Bulgarian, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox Patriarchates were a mistake?

I think it was unwise and set a precedent for all our nationalistic/phyletistic problems post the breakup of the Soviet Empire, yes. Autonomous churches under the EP would have made more sense to my mind, but given the situation at the time I understand why this would have had its own issues. What's done is done, however. I certainly don't believe that we should be encouraging more and more autocephalous churches every time a state fragments, however. What purpose would that serve except to bolster the already far too common nationalistic elements in Orthodoxy. There's no reason whatsoever that the autocephalous churches should mirror state boundaries (or ethnic groups which often amounts to much the same thing). They didn't in the early centuries and they shouldn't now.
They did then and they do now. It's just the fact of the matter.

Quote
Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon Canon 17

Outlying or rural parishes shall in every province remain subject to the bishops who now have jurisdiction over them, particularly if the bishops have peaceably and continuously governed them for the space of thirty years. But if within thirty years there has been, or is, any dispute concerning them, it is lawful for those who hold themselves aggrieved to bring their cause before the synod of the province. And if any one be wronged by his metropolitan, let the matter be decided by the exarch of the diocese or by the throne of Constantinople, as aforesaid. And if any city has been, or shall hereafter be newly erected by imperial authority, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes follow the political and municipal example.

Btw, the Churches of Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria were revived, not created, in the 19th century.  In fact, their existence in large part allowed those nations to survive the Turkocratia (which the Phanar used as an opportunity to try to Hellenize them).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2013, 01:42:29 PM »

Anyway, autocephaly should be according to political borders, not ethnicity. Just as the Church of Poland, which contains several ethnicities.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2013, 01:47:31 PM »


"Mother" Church would be the originator of the Faith in that land.

Ukraine (Rus) received Orthodoxy from Constantinople.

Ergo Constantinople is the Mother Church, not Moscow.

While that is true, was not Ukraine part of the Moscow Patriarchate when Constantinople recognized her autocephaly?
Yes. The real problem is that with the destruction of Kiev the see of Kiev and All Rus' was translated, by hierarchs originating in Galicia, to the Northeast, settling finally in Vladimir (which remained the official seat even after the Metropolitan permanently settled in Moscow).

The present Metropolitanate of Kiev does not stem from the original one founded by St. Michael and St. Vladimir-translated to and into the Patriarchate of Moscow, but the one prepared by Met. Jeremias and founded by Met. St. Peter Movila/Mohyla in 1633, which was reunited to the original Metropolitanate, now the Patriarchate of Moscow, about fifty years later.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2013, 01:48:29 PM »

Anyway, autocephaly should be according to political borders, not ethnicity. Just as the Church of Poland, which contains several ethnicities.
Political borders often follow ethnicity.  Poland being a prime example in its Third Republic.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Putnik Namernik
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 482



« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2013, 02:02:56 PM »

The moldovans being romanians, as Moldova is, should come back to mother Church of Romania.

There are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians in Moldova also. And Orthodox jurisdictions should be territorial, not ethnical. Therefore, since Moldova is an independent country, it should have its own autocephalous church, comprising all Orthodox believers living there.

Well Bessarabia (of which modern Moldova, minus Transdnistria, is the main part) is part of the canonical territory of the Romanian church, as is northern Bucovina. Neither the fact that Stalin annexed them to the USSR nor the current ethnic makeup of the annexed areas should be enough to change that. Do you seriously see autocephalous churches delimited by national boundaries as a good thing? I'd definitely argue the reverse. I think we made a mistake creating so many autocephalous churches when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, I certainly wouldn't advocate adding to the number as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

James

So if my understanding is correct, you think the creation of the Bulgarian, Romanian, and Serbian Orthodox Patriarchates were a mistake?

I think it was unwise and set a precedent for all our nationalistic/phyletistic problems post the breakup of the Soviet Empire, yes. Autonomous churches under the EP would have made more sense to my mind, but given the situation at the time I understand why this would have had its own issues. What's done is done, however. I certainly don't believe that we should be encouraging more and more autocephalous churches every time a state fragments, however. What purpose would that serve except to bolster the already far too common nationalistic elements in Orthodoxy. There's no reason whatsoever that the autocephalous churches should mirror state boundaries (or ethnic groups which often amounts to much the same thing). They didn't in the early centuries and they shouldn't now.

James
Without the national churches the number of Orthodox believers in Balkans would be significantly smaller...Autocephalous churches in places like Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo have nothing to do with faith but with politics and would not contribute to missionary of non-Serbs...I don't want to comment about Moldavia and Ukraine since I am not as much aware of all historical factors involved...Abolishing national churches might lead us towards having similar structure as the Roman Catholic Church which I don't see as an upgrade. Perhaps there might be reorganization some time far away into the future...but that will be very difficult sunce the circumstances very from place to place.
Logged
Pravoslaven Makedonec
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Macedonian Orthodox
Posts: 37



« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2013, 07:32:56 PM »

Carl I wont to know why someone deleted my post yesterday, why Im I being censored. Im going to save this just in case it doesnt go through.

As I am reading this thread it is clear that this situation is the same as the one of Macedonia. Serbia is not the mother church for us nor should any church have power over another. No Greek or Serbian church can tell me that I am not Macedonian Orthodox and that I am not canonical. They tried their trick with the Nish dogovor and now with a fake but to you real Ohrid Archdiocese or whatever they are calling it.  Oh and the Greeks are in this for the name. Ukraine does not need permission from anyone. This is why the Orthodox people are divided.

P.S I have no problem with entering a Greek or Serbian church so long as they dont try their propaganda and dont care about my ethnicity.

Have you listened to your Bishop Anthimos such a wonderful and spiritual person (he should be sacked)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVq5Yc7czJo
He wonts to annex Bitola and would love to kill everyone to reclaim it, this is then Bishop of Thessaloniki/Solun.
This news never makes it on here we dont wont to get the Greek upset.

This is all in Greek but I have provided a translation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TFjIfyrQ_aE


Bishop Anthimos: “No Mercy is Possible”
2011/11/18

In his latest Sunday Sermon on November 13, 2011, the Greek Orthodox Bishop of Thessaloniki Anthimos continues his anti-Macedonian diatribes, fully funded by the Greek state, with full support from the Patriarch, and a generation of Greek parishioners who have been brought up to  believe that Church is a place to talk about everything EXCEPT the love of God, and Jesus Christ. No matter what happens to the Greek economy or society, it seems there will always be sufficient borrowed German euros available to pay for the salary of professional propagandists like Anthimos, and others like him.

Among other things, the so-called Bishop talks at length about how “merciful” Greeks are towards their poor neighbors, like the Bulgarian citizens who come to Greece to earn some money for their survival. “They are allowed to sell candles outside Greek churches, and we do not react to this, although we know that they are acting against the Greek law”. He also explains how merciful Greece and Greeks are towards “Skopia.” (Skopia is a Greek slur used for the Republic of Macedonia, and the term Skopian is used for ALL ethnic Macedonians, including the hundreds of thousands who live within Greece’s post-1913 borders, and the large diaspora of that Aegean Macedonian community. Thus, with the term Skopian, the xenophobic Greek Orthodox Church is attempting to make those people foreigners in their own land; they are the “other.” (This is a GOC practice that goes back to the early days, with Bishop Karavangelis, who worked hand in hand with Ottoman troops liquidating Macedonians who rejected the Patriarchy; a “man of God” who used to dance through the streets of Kostur with Lazar Poptrajkov’s head on a plate.)

Anthimos continues to talk about how, by investing there, the Greek companies are offering a better standard of living to those citizens, “but “Skopians” still insist on their aims to change the order in the Balkans in their favor. “Once, it had been said by the media there, that now, Greece is lost, it is time for us to get back our lands. You listen to this and evaluate it.” He explains that, in this case, no mercy is possible because “we Greeks do not ask for anything but we always give and give, again!”.

He says that he helps students (five of them) from Macedonia, to study theology in Solun and he offers them housing. After this, a mention to pseudo-German EU bureaucrat Yorgos Chatzimarkakis follows, criticizing the politician’s speech in Macedonian language, by which he “recognized” the Macedonian language (he reads aloud a newspaper article).

Anthimos also recommends that the new minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dimas, will “help Greek interests to be protected”, especially after the upcoming expected verdict of the International Court of Justice case, where it is widely believed that Greece is destined to lose. In essence, Anthimos is calling for the bigoted Greek policy against Macedonians, both inside and outside of Greece, to continue with he support of Athens under all circumstances. However, the Greek Church is a client of that state, so both institutions support each other, to see who can be more anti-Macedonian.

As always, Anthimos relies on the old red herring that the tiny Republic of Macedonia poses a military threat to NATO-member Greece, in hopes of generating a fear response, and making his flock more malleable and easy to manipulate: “This is a danger that we must always keep in our minds and have some concern for such claims, because they want us, the Greeks, to go south of Mount Olympus. This is what we are told. And we will be told that, also by others.”

This kind of existential threat pretext is used routinely by the Greek Orthodox Church, and it is particularly effective when it comes to the large community of Pontic Greeks from Asia Minor, who escaped to Aegean Macedonia after the Treaty of Lausanne, and who were commonly given the illegally expropriated homes and land of Macedonians, who had previously been ethnically cleansed from their farms. Of course, the Greek Orthodox Church was complicit in those historical crimes, and, as a result, the extremist elements in the Pontic community of northern Greece remain as some of the best allies to Greek ultra-nationalism, because they, too, know what it feels like to be forcibly removed from their land in Anatolia, and they have been bred since childhood to carry a deep fear that this might happen to them again, if the indigenous Macedonians are not systematically oppressed.

At the end, Anthimos mentions the voices of part of the Greek population, who are in favor of getting Greece out of the Eurozone. He says that such a thing would be catastrophic , because “imagine if Bulgaria, Albania, the state of Skopia and Turkey all get into the EU, and Greece to be outside! Think about it. Are all of them silly, to want to be in? [...] “if we get outside they European Union, we will get to be like it was in 1952-54″ and “we would be like Bulgaria , some years ago, when I was told that, in that country, they were so poor that, in a family of 4, they had to share one single orange at their meals, because they did not have the money to buy more.”


 Your warning status is raised to 99 days for multiple violations.

1. You made an unwarranted accusation against the moderators by claiming that your post was deleted. The rule you violated is "* Respect the mod/admin staff -- The moderators and administrative staff of oc.net keep this place running tidy.  While you don't have to agree with a particular decision they make, we ask that you at least respect it publicly.  Do not complain about forum moderation, or the specific official actions taken by the moderators, global moderators, or administrators, on the forum."

2. By posting an entire article you violated the following " Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. --  When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright."

3. You posted one You Tube video in Macedonian and another in Greek without providing translations.

If you wish to contest this action, please PM me first. Carl Kraeff
Logged

1 Солунјани: 1:8 Зашто, од вас Господовото слово се разгласи не само во Македонија и Ахаја, туку вашата вера во Бога се расшири во секое место, така што нема потреба ние да зборуваме нешто.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2013, 08:28:02 PM »

Carl I wont to know why someone deleted my post yesterday, why Im I being censored. Im going to save this just in case it doesnt go through.

As I am reading this thread it is clear that this situation is the same as the one of Macedonia. Serbia is not the mother church for us

Yes, the Bulgarian Church and the Church of Constantinople are.

nor should any church have power over another.
Spoken like a true Protestant.

The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is a hierarchy body which follows canonical order.

No Greek or Serbian church can tell me that I am not Macedonian Orthodox and that I am not canonical.

The canonical ones can.
They tried their trick with the Nish dogovor and now with a fake but to you real Ohrid Archdiocese or whatever they are calling it.  Oh and the Greeks are in this for the name. Ukraine does not need permission from anyone. This is why the Orthodox people are divided.
Just the schismatic protestants of the eastern rite.

P.S I have no problem with entering a Greek or Serbian church so long as they dont try their propaganda and dont care about my ethnicity.
We have lots of Macedonians and don't care about their nationality.  About their observance of canonical order and Orthodox dogma (which they adhere to) we care a great deal.  Sorry you think your nationality trumps the canons and dogmas of the Church.

Have you listened to your Bishop Anthimos such a wonderful and spiritual person (he should be sacked)
Ah, I see: you shouldn't be told, but you should tell us.  Gotchya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVq5Yc7czJo
He wonts to annex Bitola and would love to kill everyone to reclaim it, this is then Bishop of Thessaloniki/Solun.
Thessaloniki. The Slavs never took the city when they had taken all the rest of Macedonia.

This news never makes it on here we dont wont to get the Greek upset.

This is all in Greek but I have provided a translation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TFjIfyrQ_aE


Bishop Anthimos: “No Mercy is Possible”
2011/11/18

In his latest Sunday Sermon on November 13, 2011, the Greek Orthodox Bishop of Thessaloniki Anthimos continues his anti-Macedonian diatribes, fully funded by the Greek state, with full support from the Patriarch, and a generation of Greek parishioners who have been brought up to  believe that Church is a place to talk about everything EXCEPT the love of God, and Jesus Christ. No matter what happens to the Greek economy or society, it seems there will always be sufficient borrowed German euros available to pay for the salary of professional propagandists like Anthimos, and others like him.

Among other things, the so-called Bishop
big talk from someone's church which is recognized by no one.

talks at length about how “merciful” Greeks are towards their poor neighbors, like the Bulgarian citizens who come to Greece to earn some money for their survival. “They are allowed to sell candles outside Greek churches, and we do not react to this, although we know that they are acting against the Greek law”. He also explains how merciful Greece and Greeks are towards “Skopia.” (Skopia is a Greek slur used for the Republic of Macedonia, and the term Skopian is used for ALL ethnic Macedonians, including the hundreds of thousands who live within Greece’s post-1913 borders, and the large diaspora of that Aegean Macedonian community. Thus, with the term Skopian, the xenophobic Greek Orthodox Church is attempting to make those people foreigners in their own land; they are the “other.” (This is a GOC practice that goes back to the early days, with Bishop Karavangelis, who worked hand in hand with Ottoman troops liquidating Macedonians who rejected the Patriarchy; a “man of God” who used to dance through the streets of Kostur with Lazar Poptrajkov’s head on a plate.)

Anthimos continues to talk about how, by investing there, the Greek companies are offering a better standard of living to those citizens, “but “Skopians” still insist on their aims to change the order in the Balkans in their favor. “Once, it had been said by the media there, that now, Greece is lost, it is time for us to get back our lands. You listen to this and evaluate it.” He explains that, in this case, no mercy is possible because “we Greeks do not ask for anything but we always give and give, again!”.

He says that he helps students (five of them) from Macedonia, to study theology in Solun Thessalonica
fixed that for you.
and he offers them housing. After this, a mention to pseudo-German EU bureaucrat Yorgos Chatzimarkakis follows, criticizing the politician’s speech in Macedonian language, by which he “recognized” the Macedonian language (he reads aloud a newspaper article).

Anthimos also recommends that the new minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dimas, will “help Greek interests to be protected”, especially after the upcoming expected verdict of the International Court of Justice case, where it is widely believed that Greece is destined to lose. In essence, Anthimos is calling for the bigoted Greek policy against Macedonians, both inside and outside of Greece, to continue with he support of Athens under all circumstances. However, the Greek Church is a client of that state, so both institutions support each other, to see who can be more anti-Macedonian.
so sort of like the ecclesiastical client of the Macedonian regime to see who can outdo the other in jingoism.

As always, Anthimos relies on the old red herring that the tiny Republic of Macedonia poses a military threat to NATO-member Greece, in hopes of generating a fear response, and making his flock more malleable and easy to manipulate: “This is a danger that we must always keep in our minds and have some concern for such claims, because they want us, the Greeks, to go south of Mount Olympus. This is what we are told. And we will be told that, also by others.”

This kind of existential threat pretext is used routinely by the Greek Orthodox Church, and it is particularly effective when it comes to the large community of Pontic Greeks from Asia Minor, who escaped to Aegean Macedonia after the Treaty of Lausanne, and who were commonly given the illegally expropriated homes and land of Macedonians, who had previously been ethnically cleansed from their farms. Of course, the Greek Orthodox Church was complicit in those historical crimes, and, as a result, the extremist elements in the Pontic community of northern Greece remain as some of the best allies to Greek ultra-nationalism, because they, too, know what it feels like to be forcibly removed from their land in Anatolia, and they have been bred since childhood to carry a deep fear that this might happen to them again, if the indigenous Macedonians are not systematically oppressed.

At the end, Anthimos mentions the voices of part of the Greek population, who are in favor of getting Greece out of the Eurozone. He says that such a thing would be catastrophic , because “imagine if Bulgaria, Albania, the state of Skopia and Turkey all get into the EU, and Greece to be outside! Think about it. Are all of them silly, to want to be in? [...] “if we get outside they European Union, we will get to be like it was in 1952-54″ and “we would be like Bulgaria , some years ago, when I was told that, in that country, they were so poor that, in a family of 4, they had to share one single orange at their meals, because they did not have the money to buy more.”
well, since you translated it so dispassionately Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Pravoslaven Makedonec
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Macedonian Orthodox
Posts: 37



« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2013, 09:04:36 PM »

ialmisry so the Orthodox church is a hierarchy, tell me who is at the top the Russians or the Greeks. Do we have a Pope like figure and if so who?

It is ok I know you are rasist and only think that anything Macedonian must be Greek (lol) or Bulgarian (lol). Get over yourself. Have you read the Bible and if so you will know that the first church in Europe was established in Macedonia.

Your answer: Macedonia did not exist even though it is mentioned in the Bible and that church is Greek even though there is no mention of Greek but Achea or More and bla bla bla Im racist and deny everything that is Macedonian regardless if Im Greek or not because I dont know anything.
Logged

1 Солунјани: 1:8 Зашто, од вас Господовото слово се разгласи не само во Македонија и Ахаја, туку вашата вера во Бога се расшири во секое место, така што нема потреба ние да зборуваме нешто.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2013, 10:29:23 PM »

ialmisry so the Orthodox church is a hierarchy, tell me who is at the top the Russians
The Russians in Russia? Pat. Kyril of Moscow.

or the Greeks.
The Greeks in Greece?  Abp. Hieronomys (the south) and EP Bartholomew (the North and the islands).

Do we have a Pope like figure and if so who?
Habemus papam!

He has jurisdiction over all of Africa, including the Russians and Greeks who live there.

It is ok I know you are rasist
well at least I'm not a racist.

and only think that anything Macedonian must be Greek (lol) or Bulgarian (lol).
Oh? Can you quote me on that?

Get over yourself.

Physician, heal thyself.

Have you read the Bible and if so you will know that the first church in Europe was established in Macedonia.
Yes. I've been there-it's in Greece.


Your answer: Macedonia did not exist even though it is mentioned in the Bible and that church is Greek even though there is no mention of Greek
The NT doesn't have to mention Greek. It is in Greek καὶ ὅραμα διὰ τῆς νυκτὸς ὤφθη τῷ Παύλῳ· ἀνήρ τις ἦν Μακεδὼν ἑστὼς, παρακαλῶν αὐτὸν καὶ λέγων· Διαβὰς εἰς Μακεδονίαν βοήθησον ἡμῖν. Acts 16:9.

Rome is mentioned too, just not Rome, Kentucky.


but Achea or More and bla bla bla Im racist and deny everything that is Macedonian regardless if Im Greek or not because I dont know anything.
evidently you don't:Btw, Greece is mentioned, e.g. Acts 20:2.  Greek Macedonia existed at the time, but Slavic Macedonia did not.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 10:58:11 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:18 AM »

They did then and they do now. It's just the fact of the matter.

Quote
Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon Canon 17

Outlying or rural parishes shall in every province remain subject to the bishops who now have jurisdiction over them, particularly if the bishops have peaceably and continuously governed them for the space of thirty years. But if within thirty years there has been, or is, any dispute concerning them, it is lawful for those who hold themselves aggrieved to bring their cause before the synod of the province. And if any one be wronged by his metropolitan, let the matter be decided by the exarch of the diocese or by the throne of Constantinople, as aforesaid. And if any city has been, or shall hereafter be newly erected by imperial authority, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes follow the political and municipal example.

I don't believe you to be correct nor do I believe your quote to be relevant, though I concede that I may be missing the point you are trying to make. The point I was making is that the Autocephalous churches in the early years did not follow the boundaries of the state (or we'd have had one for the whole Empire) and nor did they follow ethnicity.

Quote
Btw, the Churches of Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria were revived, not created, in the 19th century.  In fact, their existence in large part allowed those nations to survive the Turkocratia (which the Phanar used as an opportunity to try to Hellenize them).
I didn't claim they were created. Romania (or rather the principalities that later joined to form it) was autonomous, however, not autocephalous during the period. I'm pretty sure I said above that I thought granting autocephaly to every national church was an unwise precedent and I still believe that, but what's done is done.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2013, 03:52:21 AM »

Without the national churches the number of Orthodox believers in Balkans would be significantly smaller...Autocephalous churches in places like Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo have nothing to do with faith but with politics and would not contribute to missionary of non-Serbs...I don't want to comment about Moldavia and Ukraine since I am not as much aware of all historical factors involved...Abolishing national churches might lead us towards having similar structure as the Roman Catholic Church which I don't see as an upgrade. Perhaps there might be reorganization some time far away into the future...but that will be very difficult sunce the circumstances very from place to place.

I never spoke of abolishing anything. I was talking of having set an unwise precedent in the past, not trying to roll back time. However, if what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then that only reinforces my feelings. Phyletism and nationalism have no place in the Church and if people are members of their local church for either reason one has to wonder whether they are even Christian at all. Keeping such nominal adherents 'Orthodox' does not seem to me to be a reason to create a new autocephalous church whenever a state fragments - that might encourage nationalism but it does nothing to encourage faith.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Napoletani
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Romanian Orthodox
Posts: 131



« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2013, 04:34:38 AM »

@Pravoslaven Makedonec

Saint Theophylact of Ohrid didnt know about macedonian slavs, but taught to the bulgarians, Ohrid being disputed by the First Bulgarian Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. So Constantinople and Bulgaria are your mother Churches.

Quote
P.S I have no problem with entering a Greek or Serbian church so long as they dont try their propaganda and dont care about my ethnicity.

And what about a bulgarian one? That would be the one in line with your ethnicity, history, culture pre 1945.

Quote
It is ok I know you are rasist and only think that anything Macedonian must be Greek (lol) or Bulgarian (lol).

Saint Theophylact of Ohrid called you bulgarians, your "lol" at him means nothing to us.

Quote
Get over yourself. Have you read the Bible and if so you will know that the first church in Europe was established in Macedonia.

Wich was greek, spoke greek, and i didnt see any Epistle to the solunians, but to the thessalonicians. Deal with it.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28

Why didnt he say "nor slavic" is a mystery to me. Why there is no letter to the vadarians too  Sad


from a letter to Anem:
When you say that you have become a complete barbarian among the Bulgarians, you, my dearest, are saying what I dream /in my sleep/. Because just think how much I have drunk from the cup of vulgarity, being so far away from the countries of wisdom, and how much I have drunk from the lack of culture … Since we have been living for a long time in the land of the Bulgarians, vulgarity has become our close companion and fellow-inhabitant.


  from a letter to the Empress Maria:
Since I went from Ohrid to the Queen of Towns, my holy Lady, I have encountered many sorrows, because of my numerous sins … And so I come among the Bulgarians, I, a true citizen of
Constantinople, a Bulgarian by some miracle.


from a letter to the Bishop of Vidin:
And so, do not despair, do not lose heart, as though you were the only one to suffer … So you have Kumans invading your land? What are they, however, in comparison with the people of Ohrid, who come from the city to at­tack us? So you have cunning citizens? They are children in comparison with our Bulgarian citizens …


from a letter to the royal son-in-law, Bruiennius:
Because the clerics have paid twice as much as the laymen, both for the mills and for the strugi, as they are called in Bulgarian, which a Hellene would call brooklets, and which facilitate fishing, and for them too the clerics have been subjected to much greater payments than the others …
Allegedly so as not to put my high rank to shame, he collected from me personally so much, that, for mills which have long since been destroyed, he asked the full price, while for those in good condition – twice as much as from the Bulgarians.

Saint Theophylact of Ohrid http://history-of-macedonia.com/2007/06/30/theophylactus-of-ohrid-letters-verify-the-inhabitants-of-ohrid-are-bulgarians-and-speak-bulgarian/





« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 04:55:21 AM by Napoletani » Logged

Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2013, 06:23:51 AM »

They did then and they do now. It's just the fact of the matter.

Quote
Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon Canon 17

Outlying or rural parishes shall in every province remain subject to the bishops who now have jurisdiction over them, particularly if the bishops have peaceably and continuously governed them for the space of thirty years. But if within thirty years there has been, or is, any dispute concerning them, it is lawful for those who hold themselves aggrieved to bring their cause before the synod of the province. And if any one be wronged by his metropolitan, let the matter be decided by the exarch of the diocese or by the throne of Constantinople, as aforesaid. And if any city has been, or shall hereafter be newly erected by imperial authority, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes follow the political and municipal example.

I don't believe you to be correct nor do I believe your quote to be relevant, though I concede that I may be missing the point you are trying to make. The point I was making is that the Autocephalous churches in the early years did not follow the boundaries of the state (or we'd have had one for the whole Empire) and nor did they follow ethnicity.
And you are wrong on both counts.  For one, the Patriarchate of the West covered the Empire of the West (except originally it overextended a bit to the Aegean, the area outside of the Western Empire slipping outside its jurisdiction), the Patriarchate of Alexandria covering the civil diocese of Egypt (dioceses were originally civil regional administrative divisions), Antioch and All the East having jurisdiction over the Diocese of the East.  The Church of Ethiopia (4th century) covered the Ethiopian Empire, the Church of Nubia (6th century) covered the Kingdom of Nubia, the the 4th century Catholicate of Armenia the Kingdom of Aremnia, the Catholicos of Iberia the Kingdom of Iberia and the Catholicos of Albania the Kingdom of Albania (in the Caucasus).  St. Methodius was given jurisdiction over the Empire of Moravia, and the Patriarchate of Bulgaria shared the fate of the First Bulgarian Empire, as did the revived Bulgarian Patriarchate share the fate of the Second Bulgarian empire.  Then all along we had the missionary bishops (the real topic of barbarians in canon 28 of Chalcedon), whose jurisdiction was the people they served (we have a number, for instance "of the Arabs" for the tribes beyond the limes).

Btw, the Churches of Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria were revived, not created, in the 19th century.  In fact, their existence in large part allowed those nations to survive the Turkocratia (which the Phanar used as an opportunity to try to Hellenize them).
I didn't claim they were created. Romania (or rather the principalities that later joined to form it) was autonomous, however, not autocephalous during the period. I'm pretty sure I said above that I thought granting autocephaly to every national church was an unwise precedent and I still believe that, but what's done is done.
The Bulgarian Exarchate of the 19th century revived the Bulgarian Patriarchate of the 10th century, the Serbian Metropolitanate merely jointed the autocephalous remnants of the autocephalous Serbian Church of the 13th century (the Patriachate of Karlowitz and the Metropolitanate of Montenegro remained autocephalous, only the Serbian Church only the Sultan's control was wrongfully "abolished").   The Metropolitanates of Wallahia (and its dependent Transylvania) and of Moldavia were remnants of the second Bulgarian Patriarchate of Turnovo-hence the reason why they used Church Slavonic.

Given how well it largely worked out-and largely, it worked out well-no problem.  Far better than if the Phanar retained jurisdiciton.  That was an utter disaster in the Middle East, where the Phanar kept control almost until the end of the Empire-the Ottoman one, that is.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2013, 06:27:49 AM »

Without the national churches the number of Orthodox believers in Balkans would be significantly smaller...Autocephalous churches in places like Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo have nothing to do with faith but with politics and would not contribute to missionary of non-Serbs...I don't want to comment about Moldavia and Ukraine since I am not as much aware of all historical factors involved...Abolishing national churches might lead us towards having similar structure as the Roman Catholic Church which I don't see as an upgrade. Perhaps there might be reorganization some time far away into the future...but that will be very difficult sunce the circumstances very from place to place.

I never spoke of abolishing anything. I was talking of having set an unwise precedent in the past, not trying to roll back time. However, if what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then that only reinforces my feelings. Phyletism and nationalism have no place in the Church and if people are members of their local church for either reason one has to wonder whether they are even Christian at all. Keeping such nominal adherents 'Orthodox' does not seem to me to be a reason to create a new autocephalous church whenever a state fragments - that might encourage nationalism but it does nothing to encourage faith.
History in the Balkans and in the Middle East (e.g. the Patriarchate of Antioch, once wrested from the Phanariot Greeks and returned to the Orthodox Arabs) says otherwise.  Indeed, the history of the Polish Orthodox Church says differently-the majority of its Faithful being ethnic Poles.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2013, 08:53:59 AM »

Quote
Indeed, the history of the Polish Orthodox Church says differently-the majority of its Faithful being ethnic Poles.

At what time in history?  Not in the past and not in the present.  The majority of the faithful are either Ukrainian or Lemko or Belarusian.  I have visted Poland a few times and been to churches in rural areas in the south.  Not to mention the transfer of Ukrainians and Lemkos from their native areas to Western Poland after WW2 to places vacated by ethnic Germans.    Borders change all the time.
In Canada we have at least 8 priests who are ethnic Ukrainians who came to us from the Church of Poland. 
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2013, 09:05:41 AM »

Quote
Indeed, the history of the Polish Orthodox Church says differently-the majority of its Faithful being ethnic Poles.

At what time in history?  Not in the past and not in the present.  The majority of the faithful are either Ukrainian or Lemko or Belarusian.  I have visted Poland a few times and been to churches in rural areas in the south.  Not to mention the transfer of Ukrainians and Lemkos from their native areas to Western Poland after WW2 to places vacated by ethnic Germans.    Borders change all the time.
In Canada we have at least 8 priests who are ethnic Ukrainians who came to us from the Church of Poland. 

I am not aware of any ethnicity statics in the Polish Orthodox Church (Michal?), but conversions will happen rather in cities, than in villages...
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,477


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2013, 10:18:02 AM »

Anyway, autocephaly should be according to political borders, not ethnicity. Just as the Church of Poland, which contains several ethnicities.
Political borders often follow ethnicity.  Poland being a prime example in its Third Republic.

Anschluss and the greater Reich didn't work out so well....

I know that many of us truly fear what could arise out of a modern Great Council. I have my own doubts that any real good may come of it.

However, the current chaos within Orthodoxy arising from the world changing events of the late 19th and 20th centuries simply have not been resolved by the Church. By these events I include:

     1. The rise of the modern nation state.
     2. Greek independence
     3. The collapse of monarchies
     4. World War 1
          a. The break up of the Ottoman and Austrian Empires
          b. The Russian Revolution
     5. Migration of Orthodox and Eastern Catholic peoples from their ancestral lands to the Americas.
     6. The final break up of the Tsarist Empire with the collapse of the USSR
     7. Islamic fundamentalism's ascendancy
     8. Secularism

There may be others.

The reaction and responses of the old world Church leaders and the monastic community has more often resembled the obliviousness of an ostrich.

Absent leadership, a council and consensus, I ask - how can we get beyond the territorial bickering of the hierarchy, abetted by opinionated laity and clergy. Are we to fiddle like a modern Nero as the proverbial Rome burns around us? After all it was Nero' s narcissism and hubris which led to his end.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 10:38:32 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2013, 11:42:38 AM »

Quote
Indeed, the history of the Polish Orthodox Church says differently-the majority of its Faithful being ethnic Poles.

At what time in history?  Not in the past and not in the present.  The majority of the faithful are either Ukrainian or Lemko or Belarusian.
 
According to the latest Polish census (last year), Poland contained 46,000 Belorussians, 10,000 Lemkos, 13,000 Russians and 48,000 Ukrainians, including ones who also claim to be Polish and those who claim to be Belorus etc. as a second identity. That adds up to 117,000 (30k+6k+5k+27k=68,000 if one counts those who claim to only be Belarussian, Lemko, Russian or Ukrainian).
http://www.stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/gus/sy_demographic_yearbook_2012.pdf
If every single one was Orthodox (and the Annuario Pontifico claims 55,000 for the UGCC and 650 for others of the Vatican's eastern flock , the Polish 2011 census claims 35,000 "Greek Catholic")
http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat12.pdf
at most they would be at most 75% of what the 2011 census found for the Polish Orthodox Church.  Once you account for the UGCC et alia, count those who identify in part as Polish etc, the percentage of Poles in the Polish Orthodox Church accounts for at least 55%.

Btw, 160,000, if accurate, would mean a considerable drop in the POC. From anecdote and studies on trends, it would seem to be accounted for by the massive immigration from Poland, but still worrisome.

As for the past, Poles would never have constituted a majority during the First Republic, as it annexed so many Rus' and Lithuanian Orthodox, and promoted submission to the Vatican as a vital part (perhaps the most important, rivaled only by the Polish language) of Polonization: despite that, the Poles never formed the majority of the Commonwealth, mostly being around 40%.

For the Second Republic, the first Polish republic to have a Polish majority, I have the stats from its last census from a propaganda piece it put out during the War "The Orthodox Church in Poland: Past and Present," put out in London in 1941 by "The Polish Research Centre" of the Anglo-Polish Council.  It records, for 1931 3,762,484 Orthodox (I don't know if that included the WRO, which had problems of recognition IIRC), constituted of 1,540,062 Ukrainians, 903,557 "White Russians", 696,397 "natives of Polesia of undefined nationality", 99,636 Russians and 21,672 Czechs.  It also included 497,290 Poles: 13%, higher than percentage of the Orthodox in the general population in the Republic, and the fourth largest Orthodox ethnicity-almost a third of the highest (the Ukrainian).  Btw, the 1931 represent an increase from 2,771,949 from the previous decade (just after the formation of the Second Republic), and from 10.8% to 11.78% of the total population. This, despite the official manipulation of the results to suppress the number of minorities in the census of 1931.

I have visted Poland a few times and been to churches in rural areas in the south.  Not to mention the transfer of Ukrainians and Lemkos from their native areas to Western Poland after WW2 to places vacated by ethnic Germans.
Operation Vistula recognized no reward for loyalty to the Vatican.

Borders change all the time.  In Canada we have at least 8 priests who are ethnic Ukrainians who came to us from the Church of Poland. 
Pre-1948 Church of Poland, or Post-1948 Church of Poland?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,861



« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2013, 11:48:09 AM »

Quote
Indeed, the history of the Polish Orthodox Church says differently-the majority of its Faithful being ethnic Poles.

At what time in history?  Not in the past and not in the present.  The majority of the faithful are either Ukrainian or Lemko or Belarusian.  I have visted Poland a few times and been to churches in rural areas in the south.  Not to mention the transfer of Ukrainians and Lemkos from their native areas to Western Poland after WW2 to places vacated by ethnic Germans.    Borders change all the time.
In Canada we have at least 8 priests who are ethnic Ukrainians who came to us from the Church of Poland. 

I am not aware of any ethnicity statics in the Polish Orthodox Church (Michal?), but conversions will happen rather in cities, than in villages...
I posted while the thread was apparently was being split, the pertinent part you ask for:
Quote
Indeed, the history of the Polish Orthodox Church says differently-the majority of its Faithful being ethnic Poles.

At what time in history?  Not in the past and not in the present.  The majority of the faithful are either Ukrainian or Lemko or Belarusian.
 
According to the latest Polish census (last year), Poland contained 46,000 Belorussians, 10,000 Lemkos, 13,000 Russians and 48,000 Ukrainians, including ones who also claim to be Polish and those who claim to be Belorus etc. as a second identity. That adds up to 117,000 (30k+6k+5k+27k=68,000 if one counts those who claim to only be Belarussian, Lemko, Russian or Ukrainian).
http://www.stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/gus/sy_demographic_yearbook_2012.pdf
If every single one was Orthodox (and the Annuario Pontifico claims 55,000 for the UGCC and 650 for others of the Vatican's eastern flock , the Polish 2011 census claims 35,000 "Greek Catholic")
http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat12.pdf
at most they would be at most 75% of what the 2011 census found for the Polish Orthodox Church.  Once you account for the UGCC et alia, count those who identify in part as Polish etc, the percentage of Poles in the Polish Orthodox Church accounts for at least 55%.

Btw, 160,000, if accurate, would mean a considerable drop in the POC. From anecdote and studies on trends, it would seem to be accounted for by the massive immigration from Poland, but still worrisome.

As for the past, Poles would never have constituted a majority during the First Republic, as it annexed so many Rus' and Lithuanian Orthodox, and promoted submission to the Vatican as a vital part (perhaps the most important, rivaled only by the Polish language) of Polonization: despite that, the Poles never formed the majority of the Commonwealth, mostly being around 40%.

For the Second Republic, the first Polish republic to have a Polish majority, I have the stats from its last census from a propaganda piece it put out during the War "The Orthodox Church in Poland: Past and Present," put out in London in 1941 by "The Polish Research Centre" of the Anglo-Polish Council.  It records, for 1931 3,762,484 Orthodox (I don't know if that included the WRO, which had problems of recognition IIRC), constituted of 1,540,062 Ukrainians, 903,557 "White Russians", 696,397 "natives of Polesia of undefined nationality", 99,636 Russians and 21,672 Czechs.  It also included 497,290 Poles: 13%, higher than percentage of the Orthodox in the general population in the Republic, and the fourth largest Orthodox ethnicity-almost a third of the highest (the Ukrainian).  Btw, the 1931 represent an increase from 2,771,949 from the previous decade (just after the formation of the Second Republic), and from 10.8% to 11.78% of the total population. This, despite the official manipulation of the results to suppress the number of minorities in the census of 1931.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2013, 03:23:55 PM »

According to the latest Polish census (last year), Poland contained 46,000 Belorussians, 10,000 Lemkos, 13,000 Russians and 48,000 Ukrainians, including ones who also claim to be Polish and those who claim to be Belorus etc. as a second identity. That adds up to 117,000 (30k+6k+5k+27k=68,000 if one counts those who claim to only be Belarussian, Lemko, Russian or Ukrainian).
http://www.stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/gus/sy_demographic_yearbook_2012.pdf
If every single one was Orthodox (and the Annuario Pontifico claims 55,000 for the UGCC and 650 for others of the Vatican's eastern flock , the Polish 2011 census claims 35,000 "Greek Catholic")
http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat12.pdf
at most they would be at most 75% of what the 2011 census found for the Polish Orthodox Church.  Once you account for the UGCC et alia, count those who identify in part as Polish etc, the percentage of Poles in the Polish Orthodox Church accounts for at least 55%.

Good Maths you did. The problem is most of these "Poles" are Poles 2nd or 1st generation due to their parents polonized out of fear or conformism.

Quote
Btw, 160,000, if accurate, would mean a considerable drop in the POC. From anecdote and studies on trends, it would seem to be accounted for by the massive immigration from Poland, but still worrisome.

That census is not to be trusted since the manner it was executed and the frauds done by interwievers makes those minority numbers not reliable at all. On the other hand previous numbers of the Orthodox believers given to the CSO by the Church are also not to be believed. It means we have to numbers, one overestimated, one - underestimated.

That emmigration thing had no major role.

Quote
As for the past, Poles would never have constituted a majority during the First Republic, as it annexed so many Rus' and Lithuanian Orthodox, and promoted submission to the Vatican as a vital part (perhaps the most important, rivaled only by the Polish language) of Polonization: despite that, the Poles never formed the majority of the Commonwealth, mostly being around 40%.

"Lithuanian Orthodox"? In what sense "Lithuanian"?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.208 seconds with 72 queries.