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Author Topic: I thought I understood Anglicanism but now...  (Read 11069 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: June 13, 2013, 07:51:06 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told me, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening. The only reason why it hangs on more with ARCIC, I presume, is that there is a dissident Catholicism out there to be the other side of the argument.


Of course it broke down, because of the reality of Orthodoxy's, and Catholicism's, true-church claim and non-recognition of Anglican orders vs. the Anglican fantasy of church union like a denominational merger (such as yours with ELCA), with the Anglicans received in their orders, etc. Similarly, ARCIC is a Modernist Catholic fantasy from a distortion of the council, groundless in Catholic doctrine, fueled by the same Anglican fantasy that the Pope will stop being the Pope (undoing Apostolicæ Curæ, giving up church and papal infallibility) and the church will become a mainline denomination, voting for 'sensible' changes such as the ordination of women and homosexuality not being a sin.

The Global South and the Continuum don't realize that Anglicanism failed because of its features, not bugs. The same bad principle of a fallible, fungible church, the one that gave Henry VIII his annulment. The Global South ordains women. What's to stop it 100 years from now from approving homosexuality? So re-creating a classic Anglicanism, as the Continuers try to do, makes no sense to Catholics and Orthodox.
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« Reply #181 on: June 13, 2013, 08:01:10 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told me, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening. The only reason why it hangs on more with ARCIC, I presume, is that there is a dissident Catholicism out there to be the other side of the argument.


Of course it broke down, because the reality of Orthodoxy's, and Catholicism's, true-church claim and non-recognition of Anglican orders vs. the Anglican fantasy of church union like a denominational merger (such as yours with ELCA) with the Anglicans remaining in their orders, etc. Similarly, ARCIC is a Modernist Catholic fantasy from a distortion of the council, groundless in Catholic doctrine, fueled by the same Anglican fantasy that the Pope will stop being the Pope (undoing Apostolicæ Curæ, giving up church and papal infallibility) and the church will become a mainline denomination, voting for 'sensible' changes such as the ordination of women and homosexuality not being a sin.

The Global South and the Continuum don't realize that Anglicanism failed because of its features, not bugs. The same bad principle of a fallible, fungible church, the one that gave Henry VIII his annulment. The Global South ordains women. What's to stop it 100 years from now from approving homosexuality? So re-creating a classic Anglicanism, as the Continuers try to do, makes no sense to Catholics and Orthodox.

There has been no denominational merger with the ELCA.
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« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2013, 08:15:43 AM »

The Episcopal Church and ELCA still exist as such with separate minister rosters but mutual recognition of orders, thus interchangeability. An Episcopal priest can take a job as an ELCA pastor and remain an Episcopal priest, and vice versa.

The Anglican ecumenical fantasy about Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that Catholicism and Orthodoxy would have intercommunion with them, giving up the true-church claim. The Anglicans would remain as they were, much as with ELCA now. When Catholicism and Orthodoxy do ecumenical talks with Protestants, it's with the understanding that the Protestants would eventually join Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Our ecumenism is you-come-in-ism. The true-church claim.
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« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2013, 08:42:09 AM »

The Anglican ecumenical fantasy about Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that Catholicism and Orthodoxy would have intercommunion with them, giving up the true-church claim.

That's not pure fantasy: Rome already has intercommunion with the PNCC and the ACoE (and would be willing with the Orthodox).
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« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2013, 08:49:13 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

My immediate reaction to this is "Tell me about it!" But maybe that's a little unfair -- I know we Catholic can be pretty bad in our own way. (I'll leave it up to you, if you want to say that you Anglicans are better.  angel)
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« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2013, 08:56:29 AM »

The Anglican ecumenical fantasy about Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that Catholicism and Orthodoxy would have intercommunion with them, giving up the true-church claim.

That's not pure fantasy: Rome already has intercommunion with the PNCC and the ACoE (and would be willing with the Orthodox).

Not exactly. Not like mainline Protestants do with each other. Namely, the Catholic Church doesn't give Catholics blanket permission to receive from those churches. They may ONLY if there's no Catholic church or priest available. Which also applies to approaching the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. As for Polish National Catholics (a century-old immigrant schism in America) and non-Catholic Eastern church members, Catholicism gives never-Catholic members such as born members the benefit of the doubt and does give them blanket permission to receive. The instruction on such for Catholic parishes is nice, though, and encourages such to obey their own churches. The PNCC gives its people the same emergency permission that Catholicism gives Catholics; I think the ACoE is unique among Eastern churches in having open Communion or something close to it.

Catholic/Orthodox ecumenism naturally stalemates too: the true-church claims collide. One side would have to give in to the other. Best you can realistically hope for is an acknowledgement of all you have in common, and joint work on social/culture-wars issues such as abortion and homosexualism. The Russian bishops' approach now.
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« Reply #186 on: June 13, 2013, 09:02:00 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but it is kinda like a kid in school complaining that math class is not productive because all the teacher wants to do is talk and not listen.  It's kinda the teacher's job to teach just like its kinda the Orthodox Church's job to instruct on the correct path. 
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« Reply #187 on: June 13, 2013, 09:28:17 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but it is kinda like a kid in school complaining that math class is not productive because all the teacher wants to do is talk and not listen.  It's kinda the teacher's job to teach just like its kinda the Orthodox Church's job to instruct on the correct path. 

If you believe the church is fallible, as Anglicanism's Articles XIX and XXI teach, that sounds arrogant, but if you believe a true-church claim it makes sense and is well put. Thanks.
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« Reply #188 on: June 13, 2013, 10:48:01 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but it is kinda like a kid in school complaining that math class is not productive because all the teacher wants to do is talk and not listen.  It's kinda the teacher's job to teach just like its kinda the Orthodox Church's job to instruct on the correct path. 

I'm sure every Anglican theologian felt the same way.
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« Reply #189 on: June 13, 2013, 11:04:43 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but it is kinda like a kid in school complaining that math class is not productive because all the teacher wants to do is talk and not listen.  It's kinda the teacher's job to teach just like its kinda the Orthodox Church's job to instruct on the correct path. 

I'm sure every Anglican theologian felt the same way.


Right, whether it's strict like the hardline Orthodox and Fr Feeney, subsistit in, 'we do not know where the church is not' like most Catholics and nice ecumenical Orthodox, or branch-theory Anglican, we're dealing with rival true-church claims. You once nailed it: the popular imagination in the '60s about ecumenism, that church union will happen, was wrong. The best we call can come to is understanding the other sides' teachings and no longer trying to kill or literally hurt each other. Missionizing among the other sides is fair game. Catholicism has the ordinariates; you have your Hispanic outreach. Free country. Fair enough.
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« Reply #190 on: June 13, 2013, 11:33:04 AM »

Quote
Best you can realistically hope for is an acknowledgement of all you have in common, and joint work on social/culture-wars issues such as abortion and homosexualism. The Russian bishops' approach now.
The russian bishops need no pope to take care of those 'issues". they only need a putin.
I also believe that this christianity obsessing over these 2 issues is a psych-analyzable phenomenon.
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« Reply #191 on: June 13, 2013, 11:55:08 AM »

Quote
Best you can realistically hope for is an acknowledgement of all you have in common, and joint work on social/culture-wars issues such as abortion and homosexualism. The Russian bishops' approach now.
The russian bishops need no pope to take care of those 'issues". they only need a putin.
I also believe that this christianity obsessing over these 2 issues is a psych-analyzable phenomenon.

Sounds like a slur from the anti-Christian mainstream and its mainline Protestant me-toos but there's a point. These are the church's last two fronts in the culture wars with a now anti-religious West, having lost or caved on everything else. You have a point, too, that these causes are often a substitute for a normal traditionalist liturgical church life that the Orthodox try to have and Catholics often don't anymore. Catholic trads tend not to be political fighters over these issues, though they agree with the conservative side. The Novus Ordo neocons are, alongside the Protestant right, such as it is (often it's just a boogeyman invented by the left).
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« Reply #192 on: June 13, 2013, 11:57:23 AM »

I also believe that this christianity obsessing over these 2 issues is a psych-analyzable phenomenon.

Insert Karl Kraus quote on psychoanalysis here.
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« Reply #193 on: June 13, 2013, 11:59:28 AM »

I also believe that this christianity obsessing over these 2 issues is a psych-analyzable phenomenon.

Insert Karl Kraus quote on psychoanalysis here.

I don't know this reference.
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« Reply #194 on: June 13, 2013, 12:03:09 PM »

Keble, what would listening on the part of the Orthodox entail?
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« Reply #195 on: June 13, 2013, 12:05:29 PM »

I also believe that this christianity obsessing over these 2 issues is a psych-analyzable phenomenon.

Insert Karl Kraus quote on psychoanalysis here.

I don't know this reference.

"Psychoanalysis is the disease it purports to cure."
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« Reply #196 on: June 13, 2013, 12:11:32 PM »

Keble, what would listening on the part of the Orthodox entail?

I'm not Keble of course but it means the Orthodox taking Anglican instruction to become Anglicans.

Romaios, I like it! Thanks.
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« Reply #197 on: June 13, 2013, 01:29:01 PM »

On a related note YF you might be in tune with your church's teaching on abortion gays and even psychoanalysis . I really wonder what mental gymnastics are required to reconcile libertarianism with the same church's pronouncements on economic matters.
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« Reply #198 on: June 13, 2013, 01:32:04 PM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but it is kinda like a kid in school complaining that math class is not productive because all the teacher wants to do is talk and not listen.  It's kinda the teacher's job to teach just like its kinda the Orthodox Church's job to instruct on the correct path. 

I'm sure every Anglican theologian felt the same way.


Right, whether it's strict like the hardline Orthodox and Fr Feeney, subsistit in, 'we do not know where the church is not' like most Catholics and nice ecumenical Orthodox, or branch-theory Anglican, we're dealing with rival true-church claims. You once nailed it: the popular imagination in the '60s about ecumenism, that church union will happen, was wrong. The best we call can come to is understanding the other sides' teachings and no longer trying to kill or literally hurt each other. Missionizing among the other sides is fair game. Catholicism has the ordinariates; you have your Hispanic outreach. Free country. Fair enough.

Missionizing is "fair game"? Once again you take a strangely negative view of things.

Naturally, we don't actually stop those who wish to leave Orthodoxy (or even Anglicanism) and come into communion with Rome, but we don't encourage them to do so, at least not officially. "We are not fishing in the Anglican pond." - Cardinal Kasper
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« Reply #199 on: June 13, 2013, 01:35:25 PM »

augustin717: It's not doctrine and I'm just a layman. Nobody bothers me.

Peter J: Sure, one is polite about it but encouragement is fine.
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« Reply #200 on: June 13, 2013, 03:01:03 PM »

Peter J: Sure, one is polite about it but encouragement is fine.

I don't think the Balamand Statement was just politeness -- though of course many Catholics will quickly point out that it wasn't an official document from the Vatican (presumably meaning that they're free to ignore it).

Quote
"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
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« Reply #201 on: June 13, 2013, 03:21:53 PM »

On a related note YF you might be in tune with your church's teaching on abortion gays and even psychoanalysis . I really wonder what mental gymnastics are required to reconcile libertarianism with the same church's pronouncements on economic matters.

What pronouncements?
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« Reply #202 on: June 13, 2013, 08:20:15 PM »

On a related note YF you might be in tune with your church's teaching on abortion gays and even psychoanalysis . I really wonder what mental gymnastics are required to reconcile libertarianism with the same church's pronouncements on economic matters.

What pronouncements?
Rerum novarum, Quadragesimo anno, Centesimus Annus etc;  the so-called catholic social teaching ain't communism but it ain't libertarianism either.
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« Reply #203 on: June 13, 2013, 08:38:18 PM »

On a related note YF you might be in tune with your church's teaching on abortion gays and even psychoanalysis . I really wonder what mental gymnastics are required to reconcile libertarianism with the same church's pronouncements on economic matters.

What pronouncements?
Rerum novarum, Quadragesimo anno, Centesimus Annus etc;  the so-called catholic social teaching ain't communism but it ain't libertarianism either.

Oh. I thought he was Orthodox.
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« Reply #204 on: June 14, 2013, 12:44:36 AM »

Right, Balamand's not doctrine. One reading of it I have no problem with: Catholicism's goal is corporate reunion, having ALL the Orthodox come in, so individual conversions aren't the main focus and Catholicism isn't trying to start more Uniate churches now either. Never-Catholic Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt so they're fine where they are.

Catholic social teaching: again not doctrine. A sort of sanctified welfare state, slightly socialist politically and economically, for peace (just-war teaching), but socially conservative (against abortion and homosexualism, for example). Doctrine's about the ends, the goals: peace, justice, charity, right to life. The church doesn't dogmatize on the political means to those ends. Monarchy, dictatorship, republic: it's all good. As long as it's trying to reach those goals and Catholics are free to worship.
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« Reply #205 on: June 14, 2013, 01:15:12 AM »

The Episcopal Church and ELCA still exist as such with separate minister rosters but mutual recognition of orders, thus interchangeability. An Episcopal priest can take a job as an ELCA pastor and remain an Episcopal priest, and vice versa.

Precisely my point.  This is not a merger.
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« Reply #206 on: June 14, 2013, 01:16:14 AM »

Right, it's like trying to have a discussion with a crazy person.

Well, a lot of mainstream Anglicans feel the same way in reverse, if for different reasons and less rudely (because, after all, we are Anglicans). Al Kimel told, ages ago, that Anglo-Orthodox "discussion" tended to break down because the Orthodox were only only interested in talking, not listening.

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but it is kinda like a kid in school complaining that math class is not productive because all the teacher wants to do is talk and not listen.  It's kinda the teacher's job to teach just like its kinda the Orthodox Church's job to instruct on the correct path. 

That's his point.  There is no Anglo-Orthodox discussion, nor has there ever been.
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« Reply #207 on: June 14, 2013, 01:18:15 AM »

Quote
Best you can realistically hope for is an acknowledgement of all you have in common, and joint work on social/culture-wars issues such as abortion and homosexualism. The Russian bishops' approach now.
The russian bishops need no pope to take care of those 'issues". they only need a putin.
I also believe that this christianity obsessing over these 2 issues is a psych-analyzable phenomenon.

Sounds like a slur from the anti-Christian mainstream and its mainline Protestant me-toos but there's a point. These are the church's last two fronts in the culture wars with a now anti-religious West, having lost or caved on everything else. You have a point, too, that these causes are often a substitute for a normal traditionalist liturgical church life that the Orthodox try to have and Catholics often don't anymore. Catholic trads tend not to be political fighters over these issues, though they agree with the conservative side. The Novus Ordo neocons are, alongside the Protestant right, such as it is (often it's just a boogeyman invented by the left).

Any Church that has "lost or caved on" homelessness, hunger, etc., is no Church at all.  You know, those things Christ said would separate the goats from the sheep...
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« Reply #208 on: June 14, 2013, 01:23:24 AM »

Right, Balamand's not doctrine. One reading of it I have no problem with: Catholicism's goal is corporate reunion, having ALL the Orthodox come in, so individual conversions aren't the main focus and Catholicism isn't trying to start more Uniate churches now either. Never-Catholic Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt so they're fine where they are.

Catholic social teaching: again not doctrine. A sort of sanctified welfare state, slightly socialist politically and economically, for peace (just-war teaching), but socially conservative (against abortion and homosexualism, for example). Doctrine's about the ends, the goals: peace, justice, charity, right to life. The church doesn't dogmatize on the political means to those ends. Monarchy, dictatorship, republic: it's all good. As long as it's trying to reach those goals and Catholics are free to worship.

Catholic social teaching isn't doctrine?  How about any of the Papal declarations listed here: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/foundational-documents.cfm

"Let the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in particular let them agree freely as to the wages; nevertheless, there underlies a dictate of natural justice more imperious and ancient than any bargain between man and man, namely, that wages ought not to be insufficient to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better, he is made the victim of force and injustice." This is from Rerum Novarum, an encyclical issued by Pope Leo XIII.

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« Reply #209 on: June 14, 2013, 01:26:02 AM »

Traditionalists they have their own mechanisms of picking and choosing.
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« Reply #210 on: June 14, 2013, 01:29:25 AM »

James Rottnek: Don't get your pedantic panties in a twist. Intercommunion and interchangeable ministers sure look like a merger to the few remaining in the pews.

Right, Anglo-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogue are impossible.

Spare me the mainline social-justice sermon. Your old enemy the Catholic Church shelters and feeds more people than your old liberal plutocrats at Trinity, Wall Street ever did.

augustin717: So do many Orthodox, what with economy. The church doesn't micromanage the laity.
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« Reply #211 on: June 14, 2013, 01:53:22 AM »

James Rottnek: Don't get your pedantic panties in a twist. Intercommunion and interchangeable ministers sure look like a merger to the few remaining in the pews.

Right, Anglo-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogue are impossible.

Spare me the mainline social-justice sermon. Your old enemy the Catholic Church shelters and feeds more people than your old liberal plutocrats at Trinity, Wall Street ever did.

augustin717: So do many Orthodox, what with economy. The church doesn't micromanage the laity.

You aren't in the pews, so how would you know what those in the pews think about the agreement between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church?  I know many members of the ELCA, and attend an Episcopal Church with great regularity.  None of the people I know sees the situation as a "merger."  If it were a merger, there wouldn't be "intercommunion" any more than there is "intercommunion" between parishes of the Diocese of Arizona of the Episcopal Church. 

Also, in case you didn't notice, Pope Leo XIII was a Catholic, not mainline.  Also, sure, the Catholic Church feeds and shelters more people than the Episcopal Church....they also happen to be substantially larger.  What's your point?  The Catholic Church follows Catholic social teaching, that thing you don't believe in.
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« Reply #212 on: June 14, 2013, 02:02:58 AM »

I wonder why it's so much bigger. Which one's the church and which one's the sect? Golly, you don't have to agree with me to be a good Catholic. I'm gonna go cry.
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« Reply #213 on: June 14, 2013, 02:06:00 AM »

The Episcopal Church and ELCA still exist as such with separate minister rosters but mutual recognition of orders, thus interchangeability. An Episcopal priest can take a job as an ELCA pastor and remain an Episcopal priest, and vice versa.

Precisely my point.  This is not a merger.

Perhaps from a denominational understanding. From the point of view of ecclesiology as a sub-section of Christology and Theology, inter-communion and mutual recognition of orders makes these two churches basically autocephalous representations of one church. From an Orthodox or Roman Catholic POV the Episcopalians and Evangelical Lutherans would be analogous to the different Orthodox jurisdictions in America or to the Latin and Byzantine Rites of the Roman Catholic Church (although less so from the Roman Catholic perspective, communion with Rome being the focal point).
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« Reply #214 on: June 14, 2013, 02:14:40 AM »

I wonder why it's so much bigger. Which one's the church and which one's the sect? Golly, you don't have to agree with me to be a good Catholic. I'm gonna go cry.

When did size become the determining factor in what a Church is? 
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« Reply #215 on: June 14, 2013, 02:20:18 AM »

The Episcopal Church and ELCA still exist as such with separate minister rosters but mutual recognition of orders, thus interchangeability. An Episcopal priest can take a job as an ELCA pastor and remain an Episcopal priest, and vice versa.

Precisely my point.  This is not a merger.

Perhaps from a denominational understanding. From the point of view of ecclesiology as a sub-section of Christology and Theology, inter-communion and mutual recognition of orders makes these two churches basically autocephalous representations of one church. From an Orthodox or Roman Catholic POV the Episcopalians and Evangelical Lutherans would be analogous to the different Orthodox jurisdictions in America or to the Latin and Byzantine Rites of the Roman Catholic Church (although less so from the Roman Catholic perspective, communion with Rome being the focal point).

Exactly.
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« Reply #216 on: June 14, 2013, 08:30:20 AM »

James Rottnek: Don't get your pedantic panties in a twist. Intercommunion and interchangeable ministers sure look like a merger to the few remaining in the pews.

Right, Anglo-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogue are impossible.

Spare me the mainline social-justice sermon. Your old enemy the Catholic Church shelters and feeds more people than your old liberal plutocrats at Trinity, Wall Street ever did.

augustin717: So do many Orthodox, what with economy. The church doesn't micromanage the laity.

You aren't in the pews, so how would you know what those in the pews think about the agreement between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church?  I know many members of the ELCA, and attend an Episcopal Church with great regularity.  None of the people I know sees the situation as a "merger."  If it were a merger, there wouldn't be "intercommunion" any more than there is "intercommunion" between parishes of the Diocese of Arizona of the Episcopal Church.  

That's the thing though: it was (a union) and it wasn't. Seems kind of like two people getting married without any sense of commitment. (Lest you get the wrong idea, may I also point out that I'm also critical of those Catholics and Orthodox who have a no-fault-divorce attitude toward conversion.)
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« Reply #217 on: June 14, 2013, 08:38:14 AM »

James Rottnek: Don't get your pedantic panties in a twist. Intercommunion and interchangeable ministers sure look like a merger to the few remaining in the pews.

Right, Anglo-Orthodox and Anglican-Catholic dialogue are impossible.

Spare me the mainline social-justice sermon. Your old enemy the Catholic Church shelters and feeds more people than your old liberal plutocrats at Trinity, Wall Street ever did.

augustin717: So do many Orthodox, what with economy. The church doesn't micromanage the laity.

You aren't in the pews, so how would you know what those in the pews think about the agreement between the ELCA and the Episcopal Church?  I know many members of the ELCA, and attend an Episcopal Church with great regularity.  None of the people I know sees the situation as a "merger."  If it were a merger, there wouldn't be "intercommunion" any more than there is "intercommunion" between parishes of the Diocese of Arizona of the Episcopal Church.  

That's the thing though: it was (a union) and it wasn't. Seems kind of like two people getting married without any sense of commitment. (Lest you get the wrong idea, may I also point out that I'm also critical of those Catholics and Orthodox who have a no-fault-divorce attitude toward conversion.)

Oh believe me, I wasn't trying to defend it.  I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.  They are still very, very much two distinct churches. 

I actually happen not to be a fan of the agreement, for the reasons you mentioned (and a few others that I don't feel it would be productive to get into in this thread).  Also, though I don't know about the wider Episcopal Church's view on the matter, my priest and quite a few of the parishioners at my parish are also less than enthusiastic about it, for a variety of reasons (the Lutherans that I know, on the other hand, generally seem very supportive).
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« Reply #218 on: June 14, 2013, 08:52:25 AM »

I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.

I guess I can agree with you there. (You may already noticed that I put "union" not "merger" in my last post.)
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« Reply #219 on: June 14, 2013, 09:08:43 AM »

I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.

I guess I can agree with you there. (You may already noticed that I put "union" not "merger" in my last post.)

Whether you call it a merger, a union, or intercommunion, the bottom line is that it shows that the Episcopal church offically holds that their supposed episcopate is nice to have, but not essential.  What was once just an opinion of the more Protestant and liberal wings is now official doctrine, which along with the "ordination" of women demolishes Anglicanism's already shaky claims to apostolicity.
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« Reply #220 on: June 14, 2013, 09:11:34 AM »

I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.

I guess I can agree with you there. (You may already noticed that I put "union" not "merger" in my last post.)

Whether you call it a merger, a union, or intercommunion, the bottom line is that it shows that the Episcopal church offically holds that their supposed episcopate is nice to have, but not essential.  What was once just an opinion of the more Protestant and liberal wings is now official doctrine, which along with the "ordination" of women demolishes Anglicanism's already shaky claims to apostolicity.

On what do you base this?  One of the required points in order to have this agreement was that the ELCA officially recognize that a bishop is ordained, in every sense of the word, and that bishops are necessary.
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« Reply #221 on: June 14, 2013, 09:14:30 AM »

I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.

I guess I can agree with you there. (You may already noticed that I put "union" not "merger" in my last post.)

Whether you call it a merger, a union, or intercommunion, the bottom line is that it shows that the Episcopal church offically holds that their supposed episcopate is nice to have, but not essential.  What was once just an opinion of the more Protestant and liberal wings is now official doctrine, which along with the "ordination" of women demolishes Anglicanism's already shaky claims to apostolicity.

On what do you base this?  One of the required points in order to have this agreement was that the ELCA officially recognize that a bishop is ordained, in every sense of the word, and that bishops are necessary.

But there is no requirement that Lutheran ministers be "re-ordained" by an Anglican bishop before they can minister to an Episcopal congregation.  They're all "grandfathered" in.
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« Reply #222 on: June 14, 2013, 09:17:00 AM »

Fine, a union, though I agree with Former Reformer's Orthodox and Catholic view of it. Anyway, as James2 points out, of interest is it seems to settle what the Anglican view of the historic episcopate (their claim to apostolic succession) is. High churchmen including Anglo-Catholics usually believed it was essential to a true church; low churchmen believed it was optional. With the union, the Episcopal Church has moved Protestantwards. Like the Swedish Lutherans, it claims the episcopate but thinks it's optional. I know the new ELCA bishops and pastors now have the Episcopal claim. The point is the old non-episcopal ELCA pastors have been grandfathered in: Episcopal priests by fiat, without Episcopal ordination.

Had an interesting conversation with a history professor about this. He says the classical Anglicans and Carolines/Laudians were less Catholic about this than Anglo-Catholics thought. The old high churchmen really believed there is no mandated form of church government in the New Testament but if you have to choose a best one, it's bishops. Perfect political compromise: the king liked having bishops but needed Protestant Europe's support, so Anglicans diplomatically recognized its ministers.

Also, Anglican and Lutheran, including non-episcopal German and Danish Lutherans, and episcopal but no claim to succession Norwegian ones, have always been interchangeable, even before the 1930s intercommunion with the Church of Sweden and the recent Porvoo one with the others. That's why the colonial Swedes became Episcopalians after American independence and there are next to no Lutheran churches in Britain.
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« Reply #223 on: June 14, 2013, 09:17:39 AM »

I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.

I guess I can agree with you there. (You may already noticed that I put "union" not "merger" in my last post.)

Whether you call it a merger, a union, or intercommunion, the bottom line is that it shows that the Episcopal church offically holds that their supposed episcopate is nice to have, but not essential.  What was once just an opinion of the more Protestant and liberal wings is now official doctrine, which along with the "ordination" of women demolishes Anglicanism's already shaky claims to apostolicity.

On what do you base this?  One of the required points in order to have this agreement was that the ELCA officially recognize that a bishop is ordained, in every sense of the word, and that bishops are necessary.
Ok, so let me get this right. ELCA and the Episcopalians state that each other's Eucharist is valid, which they can inter-commune, that each other's bishops are both valid and necessary (including women), and that Episcopalian priests can be a pastor at an ELCA church and still be in good standing?

It might not be a de jure merger, but it sure seems like a de facto one.

PP
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« Reply #224 on: June 14, 2013, 09:33:07 AM »

I was just making it clear that it isn't a merger.

I guess I can agree with you there. (You may already noticed that I put "union" not "merger" in my last post.)

Whether you call it a merger, a union, or intercommunion, the bottom line is that it shows that the Episcopal church offically holds that their supposed episcopate is nice to have, but not essential.  What was once just an opinion of the more Protestant and liberal wings is now official doctrine, which along with the "ordination" of women demolishes Anglicanism's already shaky claims to apostolicity.

On what do you base this?  One of the required points in order to have this agreement was that the ELCA officially recognize that a bishop is ordained, in every sense of the word, and that bishops are necessary.
Ok, so let me get this right. ELCA and the Episcopalians state that each other's Eucharist is valid, which they can inter-commune, that each other's bishops are both valid and necessary (including women), and that Episcopalian priests can be a pastor at an ELCA church and still be in good standing?

It might not be a de jure merger, but it sure seems like a de facto one.

PP

Correct.

Interesting and ironic because, except for the quirk of claiming the Catholic episcopate, Anglicanism was really in the Calvinist and Zwinglian camp of Protestantism, more radical than the relatively conservative, semi-Catholic classical and today's confessional Lutherans. About the Real Presence for example. European Lutherans kept more Catholic practices, such as Mass vestments, than Anglicans did: the conservative, non-mainline Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod officially defends using the crucifix and crossing yourself, because Luther kept them. The Anglicans didn't; 19th-century Anglo-Catholics started to bring them back with limited success. Today's Episcopalians are fine with those trappings. Liberal high church loves them; most Episcopalians put up with them but do not identify as Catholic. Nor do most Lutherans, left or right.
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