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Author Topic: Speaking of catechisms....  (Read 1302 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 17, 2013, 05:16:22 PM »

I have a friend who lives quite a ways away and she asked me about online catechism resources.  Below is the best one I have found.  Her finances are tight at the moment, thus the request for an internet source. She does have a few books that I've sent her but is uncomfortable taking any more from my library. (Silly girl! Roll Eyes ) She recently had her first meeting with a priest but doesn't want to "bother" him until after Lent but would like to continue reading.  Any thoughts or suggestions?

http://www.stanneorthodoxchurch.com/about_orthodoxy.html
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 02:24:17 AM »

Found something...
http://www.snmoc.org/catechism.html
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 08:35:27 AM »

Thank you!  Glancing through, it appears to be very well-organized and does a great job of explaining language and terminology along the way.  I truly appreciate your effort to find it and I know she will also.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 08:39:25 AM »

A directory.
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 08:43:03 AM »


The motherload!  I'm going to have a chat with my google, as this never came up in my search.
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 07:25:32 PM »

I would HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend she contact her priest, even if he's busy.  let HIM decide if he's too busy to respond or not.  

The other reason I say that is because HE should be the one recommending her various sources for catechism.  there are plenty of patristic catechetical teachings online that i'm sure many of us could recommend, but is it something that her priest wants her reading?  

For example, the Catechesis of St. Cyril of Jerusalem is readily available online & in many formats.  Here is one such format:  http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechetics_Cyril.php

But perhaps her spiritual father would rather have her read something like the Way of a Pilgrim which is a very nice beginners text
http://www.2shared.com/document/vxwjuF10/The_Way_of_a_Pilgrim_and_The_P.html

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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 09:08:11 PM »

I would HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend she contact her priest, even if he's busy.  let HIM decide if he's too busy to respond or not.  

The other reason I say that is because HE should be the one recommending her various sources for catechism.  there are plenty of patristic catechetical teachings online that i'm sure many of us could recommend, but is it something that her priest wants her reading?  

For example, the Catechesis of St. Cyril of Jerusalem is readily available online & in many formats.  Here is one such format:  http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechetics_Cyril.php

But perhaps her spiritual father would rather have her read something like the Way of a Pilgrim which is a very nice beginners text
http://www.2shared.com/document/vxwjuF10/The_Way_of_a_Pilgrim_and_The_P.html



Thank you, serb1389, for your counsel.  Point taken and genuinely understood.
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 10:59:52 PM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 11:41:38 PM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

St. Innocent's was the very first Orthodox book I ever read (at the suggestion of a wonderfully determined Orthodox cyber-friend) and it remains what I suggest if anyone asks me about the Orthodox Church.  It was life-changing.  That tiny book had a bigger impact on my life than all of the protestant-authored books that made up my library at the time.  No joking.  It is this book that brought my friend to make her first official inquiry.  So...I guess it's unnecessary for me to state that I love and agree with this suggestion?  Wink  Thank you for your response!
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 05:05:54 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 06:00:59 AM »

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2013, 06:19:07 AM »

Gorazd, what do you mean by "Western Captivity" Huh
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2013, 09:20:52 AM »

Gorazd, what do you mean by "Western Captivity" Huh

Although I'm confident Gorazd can speak for himself, I'm going to attempt to head this off at the pass and suggest that it is an example of the reason for the suggestion serb1389 made regarding allowing my friend's priest to choose the catechism with which he wishes to use for her instruction.  Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2013, 09:37:37 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.
It is (for one thing, the great saint, who commissioned the Russian Synodal Translation and saw it to completion, used the Masoretic Text), but still pretty good.

I purposely did not put up the link to the one by Met. St. Peter Movila for that reason, but it not only is a classic, but one that was approved (with corrections) by Pan Orthodox Synods, and was the first catechism for the English speaking new world, as can be seen in the letter for the blessing of the Holy Governing Synod
http://www.eadiocese.org/News/2013/mar/ludwell.en.htm
http://orthodoxhistory.org/
and the resulting work:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gs0HAAAAQAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2013, 09:57:18 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

Examples?
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2013, 10:09:11 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.
It is (for one thing, the great saint, who commissioned the Russian Synodal Translation and saw it to completion, used the Masoretic Text), but still pretty good.

I purposely did not put up the link to the one by Met. St. Peter Movila for that reason, but it not only is a classic, but one that was approved (with corrections) by Pan Orthodox Synods, and was the first catechism for the English speaking new world, as can be seen in the letter for the blessing of the Holy Governing Synod
http://www.eadiocese.org/News/2013/mar/ludwell.en.htm
http://orthodoxhistory.org/
and the resulting work:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gs0HAAAAQAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

I do, truly, appreciate each and every response and explanation provided.  Being received into the Church a mere 14 months ago, they'll be beneficial for me also.  Inside, I believe that I'm understanding what I've been taught, continue to learn and have experienced thus far and am *beginning* to apply some of them in my life.  But, I'm not yet at a point of having confidence in how I express these things in words.  In short, I feel as if the "mute button" has been pushed until I'm more mature in the Orthodox faith...which I realize is for not only my own good but for the good of others.  "Convertitis" can be a dangerous virus, right?   Wink
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2013, 10:23:02 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

Examples?
His discussion on the Old Testament canon.
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2013, 10:26:04 AM »

Other examples:
Speaks of scripture and tradition, instead of considering scripture to be the central part of tradition.
Endorses infrequent communion of the laity.
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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2013, 10:34:27 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

Examples?
His discussion on the Old Testament canon.

His position is the same as various Church fathers (e.g. St. John Damascene).
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2013, 10:53:06 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

Examples?
His discussion on the Old Testament canon.

His position is the same as various Church fathers (e.g. St. John Damascene).
I'm aware of that: that's why it's Orthodox.  However, the Church as a whole saw fit to continue to use the Septuagint, until the Russian Synodal Russian translation (which I think was the first to use the Masoretic Text).  You'll notice that Met. St. Philoret doesn't quote the various Church Fathers who defended the Church's preference for the LXX.
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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2013, 10:59:43 AM »

Other examples:
Speaks of scripture and tradition, instead of considering scripture to be the central part of tradition.
Endorses infrequent communion of the laity.
Not sure we can blame the last on the Western Captivity: I've read Western (where daily communion was becomig popular) criticisms on the infrequency of communion among the Easterners before 1054
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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2013, 11:21:54 AM »

Other examples:
Speaks of scripture and tradition, instead of considering scripture to be the central part of tradition.

Ah, so St. Basil the Great was under "Western Captivity." Interesting.
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2013, 11:31:28 AM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

Examples?
His discussion on the Old Testament canon.

His position is the same as various Church fathers (e.g. St. John Damascene).
I'm aware of that: that's why it's Orthodox.  However, the Church as a whole saw fit to continue to use the Septuagint, until the Russian Synodal Russian translation (which I think was the first to use the Masoretic Text).  You'll notice that Met. St. Philoret doesn't quote the various Church Fathers who defended the Church's preference for the LXX.

But it isn't "Western Captivity." If St. Philaret or his bishops wanted to use the LXX, they could have. They had their own reasons, valid or not, for doing otherwise, and no one from the "West" was constraining them. St. Philaret justifies his view of the deuterocanonical books by the witness of the Fathers he cites. Perhaps he made his choice influenced by contemporary currents in Western Christian thinking, or perhaps he just felt that the earlier Fathers were more authoritative; regardless it was a decision taken by the Russian church for its own reasons.
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2013, 12:00:43 PM »

This is a classic, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/orthodox_catechism_of_philaret.htm

And from his protogee, Met. St. Innocent Enlightener of America, who composed this originally in Aleut, and translated it into Russian when he succeeded Met. St. Philaret as Metropolitan of Moscow
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/kingdomofheaven.aspx

I have not read the one by St. Innocent, but the one by St. Philaret unfortunately is an example of Western Captivity.

Examples?
His discussion on the Old Testament canon.

His position is the same as various Church fathers (e.g. St. John Damascene).
I'm aware of that: that's why it's Orthodox.  However, the Church as a whole saw fit to continue to use the Septuagint, until the Russian Synodal Russian translation (which I think was the first to use the Masoretic Text).  You'll notice that Met. St. Philoret doesn't quote the various Church Fathers who defended the Church's preference for the LXX.

But it isn't "Western Captivity." If St. Philaret or his bishops wanted to use the LXX, they could have. They had their own reasons, valid or not, for doing otherwise, and no one from the "West" was constraining them.
Just their education, imported from the West: Latin, not Church Slavonic, was the language of the theological academies and the seminary system, even way out in Irkutsk-Met. St. Innocent, when just a simple priest, talks about speaking in Latin with the Spanish priests in California when he visited.

The gates of the Western Captivity are locked from the inside: I don't know why you seem to think otherwise.

St. Philaret justifies his view of the deuterocanonical books by the witness of the Fathers he cites.
Just happening to quote from the same mine that the West-Vatican and Protestant-used to justify their preference, the official view of the West ever since Jerome's Vulgate.

Perhaps he made his choice influenced by contemporary currents in Western Christian thinking, or perhaps he just felt that the earlier Fathers were more authoritative; regardless it was a decision taken by the Russian church for its own reasons.
It is called the Western Captivity, not the Western Occupation (though we had a lot of that as well).
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2013, 12:21:36 PM »

Just their education, imported from the West: Latin, not Church Slavonic, was the language of the theological academies and the seminary system, even way out in Irkutsk-Met. St. Innocent, when just a simple priest, talks about speaking in Latin with the Spanish priests in California when he visited.

And again, the decision to employ Latin was very much a homegrown one (e.g. St Peter Mogila). It was a a way of compensating for the sorry state of educational institutions in the Christian east at that time, and helping rebuild them. The idea was that *gasp* Orthodox people could benefit from a fluent dialogue with intellectuals in Western Europe. Unless someone thinks there is something inherently heterodox about Latin, I don't see the problem here.

Quote
The gates of the Western Captivity are locked from the inside:

Only by those who continue to cling to the existence of a "Western Captivity."

Quote
Just happening to quote from the same mine that the West-Vatican and Protestant-used to justify their preference, the official view of the West ever since Jerome's Vulgate.

St. Jerome and his Vulgate are Orthodox... what's the problem?

Quote
It is called the Western Captivity, not the Western Occupation (though we had a lot of that as well).

The word "captivity" suggests that their thinking was somehow imprisoned or restricted, when in fact saints like Peter Mogila and Met. Philaret were quite dynamic. Under this alleged captivity, Russia produced some of its greatest saints, elders, and theologians.
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »

Just their education, imported from the West: Latin, not Church Slavonic, was the language of the theological academies and the seminary system, even way out in Irkutsk-Met. St. Innocent, when just a simple priest, talks about speaking in Latin with the Spanish priests in California when he visited.

And again, the decision to employ Latin was very much a homegrown one (e.g. St Peter Mogila). It was a a way of compensating for the sorry state of educational institutions in the Christian east at that time, and helping rebuild them. The idea was that *gasp* Orthodox people could benefit from a fluent dialogue with intellectuals in Western Europe. Unless someone thinks there is something inherently heterodox about Latin, I don't see the problem here.
What part of "Western Captivity" ("Western Occupation") being locked from the inside did you not grasp?

Met. St. Peter's proclivities were not "home grown" (except being Romanian, of course he was Latin Orthodox).  He picked them up in the West whence he went because, as you pointed out, the sorry state of education institutions in the Christian East at the time-which had no little cause in the suppression from the West (e.g. the Polish harrassment of the L'viv Brotherhood). In the West where he was forced to commune with the Vatican.

"It's Greek to me" didn't originate with Shakespeare: it came from the Scholastic warning "Greek [i.e. Orthodox].  Not to be read." The ignorance of Greek spared the West from Orthodox ideas, except those translated (and edited) into Latin.   Not all that was in Latin was good, and unfortunately it was being digested whole.  How many are cut off from Orthodoxy today, from lack of translations out of Eastern languages (of course, whose fault is that?)?

Bismarck warned in his day that Russia cavorting in the West would only catch the European colds of atheism and socialism. Didn't that happen now, didn't it.

I forgot: you like socialism, don't you?  But that's another thread.

But back to the basics: Orthodox being trained in Renaissance Latin (not Patristic, mind you, but renaissance "ad fontes!" Latin, with the loss of the Patristic mindset and the adoption of pagan emulation that entailed), in ignorance of Greek and Slavonic would *gasp* have unfortunate consequences for Orthodox learning.

The gates of the Western Captivity are locked from the inside:
Only by those who continue to cling to the existence of a "Western Captivity."

Said by someone in deep denial about the existence of a "West" and an "East", I'm not sure the assessment is worth anything.

When one can read Orthodox literature, and tell whether the author was trained by the Vatican's Scholastics or the Protestants', it says something. At least to those with ears.

Or did you mean those who wish to continue living in the "Western Captivity"?  Acknowledging captivity is the first step of liberation.

Just happening to quote from the same mine that the West-Vatican and Protestant-used to justify their preference, the official view of the West ever since Jerome's Vulgate.

St. Jerome and his Vulgate are Orthodox... what's the problem?
So was Abp. St. Victor and his Roman see, and yet all the Orthodox Churches rebuked him when he conceived Ultramontanism and tried to impose it on the Church.

It is called the Western Captivity, not the Western Occupation (though we had a lot of that as well).
The word "captivity" suggests that their thinking was somehow imprisoned or restricted
Quote
The Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1376, during which seven successive popes resided in Avignon, in modern-day France, rather than in Rome. This situation arose from the conflict between the Papacy and the French crown.
Following the strife between Boniface VIII and Philip IV of France, and the death of his successor Benedict XI after only eight months in office, a deadlocked conclave finally elected Clement V, a Frenchman, as Pope in 1305. Clement declined to move to Rome, remaining in France, and in 1309 moved his court to the papal enclave at Avignon, where it remained for the next 67 years. This absence from Rome is sometimes referred to as the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy". A total of seven popes reigned at Avignon; all were French, and they increasingly fell under the influence of the French Crown. Finally, on September 13, 1376, Gregory XI abandoned Avignon and moved his court to Rome (arriving on January 17, 1377), officially ending the Avignon Papacy.
Despite this return, in 1378 the breakdown in relations between the cardinals and Gregory's successor, Urban VI, gave rise to the Western Schism. This started a second line of Avignon popes, now regarded as illegitimate. The last Avignon pope, Benedict XIII, lost most of his support in 1398, including that of France; following five years of siege by the French, he fled (March 11, 1403) to Perpignan. The schism ended in 1417 at the Council of Constance after only two popes had reigned in opposition to the Papacy in Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy

when in fact saints like Peter Mogila and Met. Philaret were quite dynamic. Under this alleged captivity, Russia produced some of its greatest saints, elders, and theologians.
The darker the night, the brighter the stars.
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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2013, 02:10:25 PM »

Just their education, imported from the West: Latin, not Church Slavonic, was the language of the theological academies and the seminary system, even way out in Irkutsk-Met. St. Innocent, when just a simple priest, talks about speaking in Latin with the Spanish priests in California when he visited.

And again, the decision to employ Latin was very much a homegrown one (e.g. St Peter Mogila). It was a a way of compensating for the sorry state of educational institutions in the Christian east at that time, and helping rebuild them. The idea was that *gasp* Orthodox people could benefit from a fluent dialogue with intellectuals in Western Europe. Unless someone thinks there is something inherently heterodox about Latin, I don't see the problem here.
What part of "Western Captivity" ("Western Occupation") being locked from the inside did you not grasp?

Met. St. Peter's proclivities were not "home grown" (except being Romanian, of course he was Latin Orthodox).  He picked them up in the West

He picked them up and turned them to Orthodox purposes, leading to a revitalization of Orthodox learning. Of course it would have better to do it in Greek and Slavonic but the infrastructure and resources for such a task were not in place. He chose to take advantage of the immense resources available from Western Europe.

Quote
Not all that was in Latin was good, and unfortunately it was being digested whole.  How many are cut off from Orthodoxy today, from lack of translations out of Eastern languages (of course, whose fault is that?)?

And the solution to this is not to sit down and wait for the West to learn Greek. Orthodox scholars being able to dialogue intelligently with the West was good for Orthodoxy and for the West. Western scholars who only had the faintest idea about the Eastern Church could now access Orthodox teaching in Latin. 

Quote
Bismarck warned in his day that Russia cavorting in the West would only catch the European colds of atheism and socialism. Didn't that happen now, didn't it.

So Russia should have remained an isolated feudal backwater, and just waited for the Europeans to forcibly introduce their ideas from the outside. Got it.

If you want to raise a point about Tsar Peter's importing Lutheran style polity and Church-state relations, that's fair enough, but such are the dangers of autocratic government.

Quote
But back to the basics: Orthodox being trained in Renaissance Latin (not Patristic, mind you, but renaissance "ad fontes!" Latin, with the loss of the Patristic mindset and the adoption of pagan emulation that entailed), in ignorance of Greek and Slavonic would *gasp* have unfortunate consequences for Orthodox learning.


Such as...? What's notable here is that no one can actually specify what heresies were introduced into the Orthodox Church by the "Western Captivity."


Quote
So was Abp. St. Victor and his Roman see, and yet all the Orthodox Churches rebuked him when he conceived Ultramontanism and tried to impose it on the Church.

Ultramontanism is a dangerous error of ecclesiological thinking. What is the comparable danger in the Vulgate?

Quote
It is called the Western Captivity, not the Western Occupation (though we had a lot of that as well).
The word "captivity" suggests that their thinking was somehow imprisoned or restricted
Quote
The Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1376, during which seven successive popes resided in Avignon, in modern-day France, rather than in Rome. This situation arose from the conflict between the Papacy and the French crown.
Following the strife between Boniface VIII and Philip IV of France, and the death of his successor Benedict XI after only eight months in office, a deadlocked conclave finally elected Clement V, a Frenchman, as Pope in 1305. Clement declined to move to Rome, remaining in France, and in 1309 moved his court to the papal enclave at Avignon, where it remained for the next 67 years. This absence from Rome is sometimes referred to as the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy". A total of seven popes reigned at Avignon; all were French, and they increasingly fell under the influence of the French Crown. Finally, on September 13, 1376, Gregory XI abandoned Avignon and moved his court to Rome (arriving on January 17, 1377), officially ending the Avignon Papacy.
Despite this return, in 1378 the breakdown in relations between the cardinals and Gregory's successor, Urban VI, gave rise to the Western Schism. This started a second line of Avignon popes, now regarded as illegitimate. The last Avignon pope, Benedict XIII, lost most of his support in 1398, including that of France; following five years of siege by the French, he fled (March 11, 1403) to Perpignan. The schism ended in 1417 at the Council of Constance after only two popes had reigned in opposition to the Papacy in Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy

...So?

Quote
The darker the night, the brighter the stars.

These "stars" didn't feel like they were in the clutch of darkness. On the contrary, they took whatever was useful from the "darkness" (the Western resources) and turned them to Orthodox ends. The same saints who were publishing the Philokalia were also taking Western spiritual texts and adapting them for Orthodox needs.
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« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2013, 04:46:12 PM »

Just their education, imported from the West: Latin, not Church Slavonic, was the language of the theological academies and the seminary system, even way out in Irkutsk-Met. St. Innocent, when just a simple priest, talks about speaking in Latin with the Spanish priests in California when he visited.

And again, the decision to employ Latin was very much a homegrown one (e.g. St Peter Mogila). It was a a way of compensating for the sorry state of educational institutions in the Christian east at that time, and helping rebuild them. The idea was that *gasp* Orthodox people could benefit from a fluent dialogue with intellectuals in Western Europe. Unless someone thinks there is something inherently heterodox about Latin, I don't see the problem here.
What part of "Western Captivity" ("Western Occupation") being locked from the inside did you not grasp?

Met. St. Peter's proclivities were not "home grown" (except being Romanian, of course he was Latin Orthodox).  He picked them up in the West

He picked them up and turned them to Orthodox purposes, leading to a revitalization of Orthodox learning. Of course it would have better to do it in Greek and Slavonic but the infrastructure and resources for such a task were not in place. He chose to take advantage of the immense resources available from Western Europe.

Quote
Not all that was in Latin was good, and unfortunately it was being digested whole.  How many are cut off from Orthodoxy today, from lack of translations out of Eastern languages (of course, whose fault is that?)?

And the solution to this is not to sit down and wait for the West to learn Greek. Orthodox scholars being able to dialogue intelligently with the West was good for Orthodoxy and for the West. Western scholars who only had the faintest idea about the Eastern Church could now access Orthodox teaching in Latin.
The Western Captivity has nothing to do with outreach. It is an internal matter.

The question of language was about what was coming in, not what was going out.

Bismarck warned in his day that Russia cavorting in the West would only catch the European colds of atheism and socialism. Didn't that happen now, didn't it.

So Russia should have remained an isolated feudal backwater, and just waited for the Europeans to forcibly introduce their ideas from the outside. Got it.
LOL.  Where do you think Russia got feudalism from?

If you want to raise a point about Tsar Peter's importing Lutheran style polity and Church-state relations, that's fair enough, but such are the dangers of autocratic government.
and yet the Autocrats of All the Russias managed to avoid it until Westoxified Peter.

Greece never had an autocrate, and yet it fell into the same trap. As Fortescue noted, it was even worse, subjecting the Church to a Balkan parliament.

But back to the basics: Orthodox being trained in Renaissance Latin (not Patristic, mind you, but renaissance "ad fontes!" Latin, with the loss of the Patristic mindset and the adoption of pagan emulation that entailed), in ignorance of Greek and Slavonic would *gasp* have unfortunate consequences for Orthodox learning.


Such as...? What's notable here is that no one can actually specify what heresies were introduced into the Orthodox Church by the "Western Captivity."
LOL. Didn't you just bring up the Holy Governing Synod ecclesiology?

The obsession on whether the Councils of Constantinople are Ecumenical or not, and the concomittant corruption of Holy Tradition into just a bigger pool of prooftexting.

The corruption of the form of absolution and the adoption of the Scholastic schema of repentance (venial sins, mortal sins, etc).  This, not the Fathers, built up the "Toll Houses" (and I'm sure a dash of Dante didn't help).

I could go on, but maybe on another thread, if you are really interested.


So was Abp. St. Victor and his Roman see, and yet all the Orthodox Churches rebuked him when he conceived Ultramontanism and tried to impose it on the Church.

Ultramontanism is a dangerous error of ecclesiological thinking. What is the comparable danger in the Vulgate?
For one, the IC: the Vulgate's mistranslation of Gen. 3:15 has been the favorite proof-text, cited even in Ineffibilis Deus.

Multilating the Canon: when the Protestants removed the Anagignoskomena from the Bible, they were only finishing what St. Jerome started.

The Masoretic text isn't what is used in the Divine Services, hence a lot of allusions to the Biblical text are lost.  Not to mention issues with the Virgin Birth and the Prophecy of Isaiah.

It is called the Western Captivity, not the Western Occupation (though we had a lot of that as well).
The word "captivity" suggests that their thinking was somehow imprisoned or restricted
Quote
The Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1376, during which seven successive popes resided in Avignon, in modern-day France, rather than in Rome. This situation arose from the conflict between the Papacy and the French crown.
Following the strife between Boniface VIII and Philip IV of France, and the death of his successor Benedict XI after only eight months in office, a deadlocked conclave finally elected Clement V, a Frenchman, as Pope in 1305. Clement declined to move to Rome, remaining in France, and in 1309 moved his court to the papal enclave at Avignon, where it remained for the next 67 years. This absence from Rome is sometimes referred to as the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy". A total of seven popes reigned at Avignon; all were French, and they increasingly fell under the influence of the French Crown. Finally, on September 13, 1376, Gregory XI abandoned Avignon and moved his court to Rome (arriving on January 17, 1377), officially ending the Avignon Papacy.
Despite this return, in 1378 the breakdown in relations between the cardinals and Gregory's successor, Urban VI, gave rise to the Western Schism. This started a second line of Avignon popes, now regarded as illegitimate. The last Avignon pope, Benedict XIII, lost most of his support in 1398, including that of France; following five years of siege by the French, he fled (March 11, 1403) to Perpignan. The schism ended in 1417 at the Council of Constance after only two popes had reigned in opposition to the Papacy in Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon_Papacy

...So?
so your pronouncement that "the word 'captivity'" means "somehow imprisoned or restricted" is incorrect.

The darker the night, the brighter the stars.
These "stars" didn't feel like they were in the clutch of darkness.
Then you haven't read them.

On the contrary, they took whatever was useful from the "darkness" (the Western resources)
and you still dont' get it: the darkness wasn't "Western resources", it was the lack of Eastern ones causing them to have to "make do."

and turned them to Orthodox ends.
Not with 100% success: Met. St. Peter's confession had to be edited for Orthodox use.

The same saints who were publishing the Philokalia were also taking Western spiritual texts and adapting them for Orthodox needs.
"adapt" is the key word.  The issue is how well, and why Orthodox needs were not being met by Orthodox spiritual texts.
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2013, 10:27:37 AM »

Btw, one big issue of the Western Captivity is the acceptance of the term "Byzantine" with all its baggage, even into Greek.
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 01:14:08 PM »

Multilating the Canon: when the Protestants removed the Anagignoskomena from the Bible, they were only finishing what St. Jerome started..
Did St. Jerome actually write against the Anagignoskomena?
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« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2013, 01:46:05 PM »

Multilating the Canon: when the Protestants removed the Anagignoskomena from the Bible, they were only finishing what St. Jerome started..
Did St. Jerome actually write against the Anagignoskomena?

Anaginoskomena < anaginosko - to read; anagnostes - reader. There was an initial reduplication gi-gno-sk-o, but the second g disappears in koine Greek.

He didn't have much appreciation for them. This is evident from his short prologues which are found in the Vulgate. He says that he translated Tobias and Judith from "Chaldean" with the help of a peritus who translated them into Hebrew for him. "One day's labour". And this because he was asked to do so by two Bishops (Cromatius and Heliodorus) - he says it is "better to obey the Bishops than to humour the Pharisees", who expressed their disdain for his interest in these books which were not part of their canon.
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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2013, 01:51:41 PM »

How many are cut off from Orthodoxy today, from lack of translations out of Eastern languages (of course, whose fault is that?)?

Basically everybody. Even the amount of translations of the works Greek Fathers into English is meagre at best.
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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2013, 02:00:39 PM »

Quote from: St. Jerome, Prologue to the Books of Solomon
Sicut ergo Iudith et Tobi(ae) et Macchabeorum libros legit quidem Ecclesia, sed inter canonicas Scripturas non recipit, sic et haec duo volumina legat ad aedificationem plebis, non ad auctoritatem ecclesiasticorum dogmatum confirmandam.

Just as the Church reads the Books of Judith, Tobias and Maccabees, but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so let her also read these two volumes [Sirach and the Wisdom of Solomon] for the edification of the people, but not to confirm the authority of the ecclesiastical dogmas.

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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2013, 02:20:01 PM »

Acknowledging captivity is the first step of liberation.

Excessive reaction to all things Western can lead to endless pseudomorphoseis, too. Allergies are not healthy.

See, for instance, the polemic of Hristos Yannaras against St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain; the slander of St. Augustine by Fr. Romanides and his school, etc. etc. Mr. Yannaras even wrote that Russia had no significant contribution to the development of Orthodox theology.
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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2013, 01:17:15 AM »

Excessive reaction to all things Western can lead to endless pseudomorphoseis, too. Allergies are not healthy.
What's wrong with pointing out misdevelopments and correcting them?

See, for instance, the polemic of Hristos Yannaras against St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain;
St. Nicodemus has great merit in collecting the Philokalia. But his adapting of Lorenz Scupoli's "Unseen Warfare" remains highly problematic. Orthodox sprituality is not the same as counter-reformation Roman Catholic one, even with minor adaptions...

the slander of St. Augustine by Fr. Romanides and his school, etc. etc.
Blessed Augustine's theology does contain some flaws, especially since he did not speak Greek and tried to figure out many things for himself, where there Fathers already had come to another consensus. A notable example is, of course, his view of the original sin.

Mr. Yannaras even wrote that Russia had no significant contribution to the development of Orthodox theology.
And that's true. Have not Russians called themselves workers of the last hour?

Orthodox theology basically was finished developping after the 7 Councils. Rus' was baptised after that. Only the essence-energies distinction was elaborated on after than by St. Gregory Palamas, a Greek, though based on St. Basil.

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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2013, 04:39:03 AM »

Excessive reaction to all things Western can lead to endless pseudomorphoseis, too. Allergies are not healthy.
What's wrong with pointing out misdevelopments and correcting them?

Nothing - just that there is a limit, beyond which one creates "misdevelopments" in order to correct "misdevelopments". This is how Arianism and Sabellianism happened, or Nestorianism and Monophysitism. Orthodoxy is the Middle Way... If you combat a heresy excessively, chances are you are going to create a new one. 

See, for instance, the polemic of Hristos Yannaras against St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain;
St. Nicodemus has great merit in collecting the Philokalia. But his adapting of Lorenz Scupoli's "Unseen Warfare" remains highly problematic. Orthodox sprituality is not the same as counter-reformation Roman Catholic one, even with minor adaptions...

Yannaras' critique of St. Nicodemus goes far beyond rejecting that one book. He basically accuses him of Latinophronia and censuring the "Orthodox" "liberty of morals". 

the slander of St. Augustine by Fr. Romanides and his school, etc. etc.
Blessed Augustine's theology does contain some flaws, especially since he did not speak Greek and tried to figure out many things for himself, where there Fathers already had come to another consensus. A notable example is, of course, his view of the original sin.

St. Augustine is a notorious case where over-zealous modern Orthodox theologians are throwing the baby out with the bath water. One of Fr. Seraphim Rose's best works does justice to him: The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church. Later Orthodox Fathers like St. Gregory Palamas confessed to have read St. Augustine with much profit, even on the Trinity. 

Mr. Yannaras even wrote that Russia had no significant contribution to the development of Orthodox theology.
And that's true. Have not Russians called themselves workers of the last hour?

Orthodox theology basically was finished developping after the 7 Councils. Rus' was baptised after that. Only the essence-energies distinction was elaborated on after than by St. Gregory Palamas, a Greek, though based on St. Basil.

Late or not, the Russian contribution was essential. The Russian Church produced many great Saints, as well as great theologians. The Patristic revival in the 20th century would not have been possible without the contribution of the emigre Russian scholars and theologians. The Neopatristic trend in Roman-Catholicism (Cardinals de Lubac, Delumeau & von Balthasar) also helped a lot. Panayotis Nellas, for instance, was trained by the Jesuits. Yannaras' opinions only betray a lot of phyletist hybris.
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2013, 06:39:05 AM »

We've already been down this road with Gorazd on Sts. Augustine and Nicodemus. It's pretty clear the only 100% Orthodox thinker for Gorazd is himself.
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