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Author Topic: The Pope, Ecumenism, and Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 3399 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2013, 03:17:14 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.
The Patriarch of Moscow is going to handle that matter a lot sooner than 50 years.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2013, 03:18:44 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.

James, you're forgetting a very important reason why such a council will be dead in the water: the yiayia/babushka factor.
Yes, I've seen a number of editorials in the Greek press telling the EP that obedience doesn't extend to submission to the Vatican.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2013, 03:25:38 AM »

They know this stuff.  They don't care.  Just like calling the chalice "a gift of a silver cup - nothing more".   Their poop can't possibly stink.... That's seriously the attitude.

Several here attack from several fronts
1) You are not Orthodox so you don't count / you don't know
2) How dare you (or IS OUTRAGE!   LOL)
3) You are lying
4) Your source is a photo hosted by ________ so since he hosts it, it's invalid
5) Nitpick specific photos (such as uncommon Russian pilgrims) that fit agendas for quick points.  (one time it was an argument about head coverings for females, and somebody posted a playboy photo cover of a lady with something over her head to make a point.)
6) Attack you, instead of addressing the point at hand
7) Dodge the specifics, address the general, miss the point, and will not hit the nail on the head
Cool Speak in "volumes of who has done it" rather than referencing the text of Early Christians (100+ years before Nicea)
9) Troll you for other arguments rather than addressing the arguments you make a valid point on, or subject matter of the thread.  
10) Contort scriptures, dropping rationale & context, in order to "prove you wrong".  

One time somebody even said "You smell bad".    Cheesy
But they were right.  I cleaned out the goat stalls that day... It was weird.
I was raised & baptized in the Eastern Orthodox church.  I was in communion & participated in a few of the sacraments as a child.

I won't go into details of why I parted the church... Mostly because of my parents in my youth, but no excuse as an adult as I am 34 years old now.

Anyway, I am considering returning to the church, but I am having a lot of problems on a few subjects.


1) Repetitious prayer.  We were commanded by God incarnate not to pray in repetition as the heathens do.  Yet there are prayer ropes...  Over and over again the same prayer is said "O Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy upon me a sinner".   I did this a lot as a child, but I'm not sure God needs so much repetition.  Being all powerful, wouldn't he get the point by just saying it once?  Was Jesus's example the Lord's prayer so that we would not do this?
The repitition is for you, not God. Any manuel I have seen on the Jesus prayer says this.

Quote
2) Mistranslation in English of the name "Jesus Christ".  Perhaps this is a Greek problem, but in proper Aramaic translation his name is pronounced in English as Yeshua.  Why have we not fixed this in English?   King James took the 'Iesus Christos' from the Greek.  Yeshua spoke Aramaic, as did the disciples. I find it kind of strange that we are calling our savior TECHNICALLY incorrectly.

The last letter of יֵשׁוּעַ is not "a" but "'," a letter few English speakers do not say incorrectly.  A bigger issue is the distinction English makes between Jesus and Joshua, something Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek do not do.

Quote
3) I know that veneration of Icons is showing respect & love to the individual in heaven / reverence etc.  But as an adult, I'm having a VERY tough time with this.  You are kissing paint & wood, or glass on top of paint/wood etc.  Period.  When people do kiss them, they cross themselves first...  How can we logically say that we are in veneration to the individual, when we kiss paint & wood with a painting of them that an artist "thinks" they may have looked like?

You're in Texas. Do an experiment. In a large crowd on the fourth of July there, kiss a representation of American flag, and then spit on it. See the differences in reaction of those around you.

Quote
4) Why is it important to constantly cross yourself.  I've never once read in the bible where Yeshua (Jesus) or an apostle did this.  How does this help?  The way I see it is "God knows what you mean".   Why is it so important?  We were commanded to pray in the name of Yeshua (Jesus) OR aka - The trinity.  So when we say "In the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit" (emphasis added on the sacred name), why does crossing ourselves help?  I can't imagine how God sees us sitting there crossing ourselves so many times - even during a liturgy.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Galatians 6:14


Quote
5) Did the apostles venerate icons of Christ?

Yes. Start here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29149.0.html

Quote
6) Did Yeshua/Jesus have an altar or practice anything similar to a divine liturgy (St. John Chrysostom (sp?)  regularly?  Did the apostles do this?
Yes. They, and therefore we, have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. Heb. 13:10.

Quote
7) Did the apostles use incense?  Did they use the censor on anything?  (Or is there evidence of any early Christian doing this such as Polycarp, Tertullian, Clement, or even Cyprian?


Is there any reference to incense in the book of Revelation of the Apostle John?

Quote
Cool Are we allowed to "confess our sins to one another" as the scriptures mandate, or is it only to a priest?

You can confess to anyone, but you can get absolution only from the priesthood.  Christ makes that quite clear.

Quote
9) Do you feel God likes all the "bling" in the church.  Silver chalices (ironic as Christ was betrayed for silver), gold plate , shiny stuff.  The vestments of that of rich priests, bishops... Large - rich - or luxurious churches (not all but there are some).


Does God have something against beauty? I've seen no evidence of it.

Quote
10) Do the Orthodox accept Freemasons in their church?  (I find it to be a luciferian faith - Freemasonry)

No.

Quote
11) Are the Orthodox allowed to hold public office, be part of the military, be on a jury, or be a police officer?  All which require a SWORN OATH "To protect and defend the constitution" etc., when Yeshua (Jesus) clearly told us not to swear and let our answers be clear as a Yes or No.

The Lord took an oath at His trial before the unjust judges. Don't relie on late Protestant eisogesis of His words.

Quote
12) Did any early Christians (Prue Nicea), apostles, or Yeshua (Jesus) "Bless" inadament objects?  a) home blessings  b) oil  c) icons d) crosses e) water (found in the old testament)  - What does blessing these things do to them exactly?

All of the above, and it puts them in their proper relationship-service to the Glory of God.

Quote
13) Liturgical repetition.   I'm having trouble because I wonder of God wants us to pray the same things over and over again nearly every Sunday.  I don't know if this falls into the question #1 category of repetition, but it's kind of hard for me to do it over and over again when I figure God knows I truly meant it last week.
Again, the repition is for you, not God. One swip rarely polishes anything, so I don't think you truly mean it as much as you think. Repetition brings that home.

Quote
14) Did the early Christians practice ordination after somebody graduated from a seminary?  Or did they basically ordinate people who were of great faith & understood the teachings of Yeshua (Jesus)?  When was a degree requirement needed for this sacrament of ordination?

Being tested by the bishops and found worthy.  Seminaries came with schools.


Quote
Please with all my heart & soul forgive me if I've offended anybody with these questions.  I'm just a very confused person right now and I'm trying to find the purity of early Christianity as the Pre-Nicean church fathers practiced.  Many of these WERE Orthodox in principal.... It's just the doctrines, practices, and habits of today's church, though very much unchanged since the 7th council....
nothing has changed since the 7th Council, nor for that matter before the 1st: anything we do now is well attested before Nicea I.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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Hypatos
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« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2013, 11:05:32 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.
You sure?  I can't really tell from the angle, but he looks like a Melkite bishop whose name escapes me.

If so, he should give account.  The EP isn't the only one he is accountable to.
you are correct.  My apologies to you and yeshuaisiam-as he is also correct: the Metropolitan should explain himself.

I've seen the picture, but I seem to recall it being labeled as a Melkite,  I seem to have missed this thread on it:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44766.0.html
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2013, 02:56:22 PM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:57:22 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2013, 03:02:04 PM »

This isn't about me.
Your religion is.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".
I'd hash this out with you, but it is none of your business.

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.
I see you feel the same way about knowledge.

I'm sorry, but you do understand that your arguments are seriously without merit.  I'm fully presenting facts about ecumenism, and you are contorting a bash session on me personally.

Look, I'm not the one holding services with the Pope who says "Muslims worship the one God".   Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is.

I left EO because of ecumenism, because I refused to make excuses for these people.   That brought in a flurry of questions on other thing "Eastern Orthodox", as my trust in EO bishops is gone.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2013, 03:05:14 PM »

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh
Your sources have been cross checked and found wanting, and your interpretation carries even less weight.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.
put the projector away.
*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
Before Your Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Your Holy Resurrection we glorify.

We have been doing that ever since He rose on the third day.

Stick to ecumenism.  Quit bashing. 

This thread is not about me...  It's about an EO patriarch engaged in ecumenism & attending services where the Pope says "Muslims worship the one God".

Tell you what, I'll start a thread soon, where you can bash me all you want. Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2013, 06:20:29 PM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.

Nonsense. You denounce icons and their veneration, yet their existence and veneration is a canonical requirement, and one followed by HOTCA of which you are so enamored. You denounce iconostases, yet they are present in HOTCA churches of which you are so enamored. You dismiss the use of liturgical objects such as the asterisk and diskos, and the table of oblation, yet even your beloved HOTCA uses them.

Yet again, you're picking and choosing what you like, confecting your own religion. It is indeed "all about you".
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 06:21:09 PM by LBK » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2013, 06:33:47 PM »

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh
Your sources have been cross checked and found wanting, and your interpretation carries even less weight.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.
put the projector away.
*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
Before Your Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Your Holy Resurrection we glorify.

We have been doing that ever since He rose on the third day.

Stick to ecumenism.  Quit bashing.  

This thread is not about me...  It's about an EO patriarch engaged in ecumenism & attending services where the Pope says "Muslims worship the one God".

Tell you what, I'll start a thread soon, where you can bash me all you want. Smiley
wouldn't want to feed that persecution complex you got going.

I'll discuss disciplining EO hierarchs with the Orthodox. No one else.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 06:35:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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Hypatos
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« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »

This isn't about me.
Your religion is.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".
I'd hash this out with you, but it is none of your business.

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.
I see you feel the same way about knowledge.

I'm sorry, but you do understand that your arguments are seriously without merit.  I'm fully presenting facts about ecumenism, and you are contorting a bash session on me personally.

Look, I'm not the one holding services with the Pope who says "Muslims worship the one God".   Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is.

I left EO because of ecumenism, because I refused to make excuses for these people.   That brought in a flurry of questions on other thing "Eastern Orthodox", as my trust in EO bishops is gone.
one should place their hope in the episcopate of Orthodoxy, not in one of its bishops.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2013, 11:19:29 PM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.

Nonsense. You denounce icons and their veneration, yet their existence and veneration is a canonical requirement, and one followed by HOTCA of which you are so enamored. You denounce iconostases, yet they are present in HOTCA churches of which you are so enamored. You dismiss the use of liturgical objects such as the asterisk and diskos, and the table of oblation, yet even your beloved HOTCA uses them.

Yet again, you're picking and choosing what you like, confecting your own religion. It is indeed "all about you".

No, you are completely missing the point.

I did not swear (as bishops do and Christ said not to) to follow the canon of the Orthodox church upon ordination.
I believe that HOTCA follows the canon, which I don't entirely agree with latter canon.
I dismiss the use of these objects, as they were not original at all.

So for Orthodox Christians, I would say that HOTCA follows the Canon.   I would not blame them to flock towards HOTCA if that's how they believe.
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ialmisry
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Hypatos
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« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2013, 12:16:38 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.

Nonsense. You denounce icons and their veneration, yet their existence and veneration is a canonical requirement, and one followed by HOTCA of which you are so enamored. You denounce iconostases, yet they are present in HOTCA churches of which you are so enamored. You dismiss the use of liturgical objects such as the asterisk and diskos, and the table of oblation, yet even your beloved HOTCA uses them.

Yet again, you're picking and choosing what you like, confecting your own religion. It is indeed "all about you".

No, you are completely missing the point.

I did not swear (as bishops do and Christ said not to) to follow the canon of the Orthodox church upon ordination.
I believe that HOTCA follows the canon, which I don't entirely agree with latter canon.
I dismiss the use of these objects, as they were not original at all.

So for Orthodox Christians, I would say that HOTCA follows the Canon.   I would not blame them to flock towards HOTCA if that's how they believe.
I would blame any Orthodox who follows your belief.
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« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2013, 07:54:04 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK


I do not see many similarities:



with 45 minute Liturgies

Seen that in an Orthodox church. Still more suitable than 3:30 Liturgies I've been to too.
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« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2013, 08:21:34 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
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« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2013, 08:36:30 AM »

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK


I do not see many similarities:


You have to remember it is not how things actually were in the first century, but how they are imagined post Reformation how they were in the first century, that counts.
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« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2013, 08:42:06 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.
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« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2013, 09:38:22 AM »

I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Oh, I didn't even notice that part. Yes, strange indeed.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.

I suspected as much. It is unlikely that the Italians used unleavened bread as early as the 8th century.
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« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2013, 09:53:26 AM »

I suspected as much. It is unlikely that the Italians used unleavened bread as early as the 8th century.

AFAIK that Liturgy was celebrated by a Greek priest and in the Byzantine rite.
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« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2013, 03:07:15 PM »

Here is another disastrous picture of ecumenism:



Patriarch Theophilos gifting a norwegian female bishop a cross made of pearls



Patriarch Bartholomew blessing along with Pope Benedict. Later he also prays (not the creed, after that). obviously breaking the canons, praying with heretics in their own church

-

And, how can we forget? Patriarch Bartholomew gifting a Koran at the coca cola event. Who said the silver chalice given to the lutheran was just a cup? Was the koran here just some paper? Nothing more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
at 32:15

Patriarch Bartholomew certainly does not think it is just a book. He says, and I quote:

"I have a small souvenir. Small and great. Souvenir to [i miss the name] and Muhtar. This is the Holy Koran the sacred book of our Muslim brothers and sisters, to you."

-

And of course, when Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Demetrios went to a synogogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpHM6CYVGs

---

Anyway, it is obvious and undeniable quite a few bishops are breaking canons. In fact they are encouraging it by doing these things. At the same time, no one is following the fathers who put the punishments for such things.  Patriarch Bartholomew is still Patriarch, still inviting the Pope to go to the Phanar and Jerusalem. No amount of dancing around the subject will change that they are breaking canons which call for them to be defrocked if they do so.

On one hand, the Patriarch is harsh with the schismatics who cease commemoration of him because he has broken canons, yet on the other seems to love schismatics who have caused the loss of so many souls in the west.


I wonder if Athos gave up on fighting the Patriarch. They have not released anything as of late. Perhaps they are waiting till the pope goes to the phanar again and also to jerusalem. But I will guess they will not fight again



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« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2013, 03:32:03 PM »

Here is another disastrous picture of ecumenism:



Patriarch Theophilos gifting a norwegian female bishop a cross made of pearls



Patriarch Bartholomew blessing along with Pope Benedict. Later he also prays (not the creed, after that). obviously breaking the canons, praying with heretics in their own church

-

And, how can we forget? Patriarch Bartholomew gifting a Koran at the coca cola event. Who said the silver chalice given to the lutheran was just a cup? Was the koran here just some paper? Nothing more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
at 32:15

Patriarch Bartholomew certainly does not think it is just a book. He says, and I quote:

"I have a small souvenir. Small and great. Souvenir to [i miss the name] and Muhtar. This is the Holy Koran the sacred book of our Muslim brothers and sisters, to you."
If HAH said "our sacred book," I'd worry.

Is it more than just some paper to you?
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« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2013, 12:41:49 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.
lol, you should become a comedian and stop talking about subjects that you don't know about...like religion for example
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« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2013, 12:41:49 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


to you what really  happened at fatima
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« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2013, 05:39:38 PM »

Here is another disastrous picture of ecumenism:



Patriarch Theophilos gifting a norwegian female bishop a cross made of pearls



Patriarch Bartholomew blessing along with Pope Benedict. Later he also prays (not the creed, after that). obviously breaking the canons, praying with heretics in their own church

-

And, how can we forget? Patriarch Bartholomew gifting a Koran at the coca cola event. Who said the silver chalice given to the lutheran was just a cup? Was the koran here just some paper? Nothing more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
at 32:15

Patriarch Bartholomew certainly does not think it is just a book. He says, and I quote:

"I have a small souvenir. Small and great. Souvenir to [i miss the name] and Muhtar. This is the Holy Koran the sacred book of our Muslim brothers and sisters, to you."
If HAH said "our sacred book," I'd worry.

Is it more than just some paper to you?

he calls it the "HOLY" Koran, as if it has some kind of truth in it he must give it legitimacy. Did all of this just fly past you? he gifted A KORAN! a ORTHODOX BISHOP gifting a KORAN!

Anyway, here are some more great pictures of bishops breaking canons:











and some good ol heretical statements by Patriarch Athenagoras :

“We are deceived and we sin, if we think that the Orthodox faith came down from Heaven and that all [other] creeds are unworthy. Three hundred million people have chosen Islam in order to reach their god, and other hundreds of millions are Protestants, Catholics, and Buddhists. The goal of every religion is to improve mankind” (from statements made by the Patriarch; see ορθόδοξος τύπος  , No. 94 [December 1968]).

“We have been seperated for 911 years and now the time has come for us to be found together again. The Catholics and the Orthodox do not belong to two different Churches, but to two branches of the same Church” (Milan, Nov. 2, 1965, Corriere de la Sera ; cited Orthodox Word, January-February-March 1966 issue, Vol. 2, No.1, p. 36).

“Recent [1970--Trans.] statements by Athenagoras. “The rason (cassock) no longer has any appeal today, neither in appearance nor in purpose. If I’d seen you beforehand, I would have told you to give some other title to your article: ‘The rason does not make the Priest, the Priest must make the Priest, without the rason’ There you have it. Of course, we must be realistic and, above all, we mustn’t be afraid of the truth. We say oftentimes that this or that item is historical and must endure. A mistake. A big mistake. How many preconceptions in the Church are not historical--I mean ancient--and we struggle to free ourselves from them? Ask village Priests what Christians want from Priests, who have nothing to do with our Church and are remnants of paganism. I’ve made my views quite clear regarding the marriage of clergymen, even after they have been ordained. Ordination is not an impediment to marriage. We would have many graduates of theological schools who would be Priests, if they knew that they could get married when they found their partner for life, and not in haste, as it’s demanded by convention. We would have decided on this at a clergy-laity congress of the Church in America, and I would have settled this matter, but I wasn’t able to. I was summoned here [to Constantinople--Trans.]. I’m glad you published the entire address by Metropolitan [Meliton] of Chalcedon [concerning Mardi Gras--editorial note in the Greek original]. He spoke the truth plain and simple, like people want it. People don’t want you to confuse things, because they think you’re laughing at them and making fun of them. Meliton is quite a personality. We don’t have many of them. He’s the voice of the Phanar, the voice of the centuries. The centuries have given us courage and strength. What else have we got here? Some people, naturally, accuse us of not holding to a good line, but they’re being negative. I’d be very happy if they proposed their own solution to the endeavor of the union of the Churches. They tell us, ’ We want union and we pray for the union of all, but we’re against your endeavor.’ You get the point? They’re in favor of union, but against our endeavor. Was not Meliton right, after all, when he talked about hypocrisy? We propose the Holy Cup as the means of union. We had the common Cup even when we separated from the West, up until 1050. The Schism took place, and we stopped. The Schism took place because of the anathema. The anathema between the two Churches, of the West and Constantinople, has been lifted. What obstacle is there? Let’s find it, let’s talk about it with a good attitude, not with insults. Can there be a dialogue of love when there are insults? ‘But we have many differences,’ they tell us. What differences? The Filioque? It existed since the seventh century, and the Churches didn’t separate. Primacy and Infallibility? What do we care about them? Let every Church maintain its own customs. If the Catholic Church wants it, let it keep it. But I ask you: What does Infallibility mean today, when the Pope has a permanent fifteen-member council in Rome which makes the decisions? Besides, we all think we’re infallible--in our work, in our thoughts, in everything. Does your wife ask you how much salt to put in the food? Certainly not. She has her infallibility. Let the Pope have his, if he wants it. We don’t want it. Theological dialogue won’t grant it. We’re not ready, and centuries will be needed. Only one dialogue is feasible: the dialogue of love. This will facilitate the dialogue regarding differences. Differences and love can’t coexist. It does not matter what others do to you, but what you do to them” (from an interview given by the Patriarch to the journalist Spyridon Alexiou, from the newspaper EqnoV, and published on March 20, 1970.) [bolded that part myself]

“Where is Christ the Savior? In our divisions, we have chased Him away.... Thus, today, does history, valiantly restoring the truth of things, summon the responsible leaders and hierarchies of the Churches to enlist theology, now as a handmaid, and make ‘man,’ for whose sake God became man, the sole purpose of their existence and mission, and portray him in a positive light, at this tragic hour of his..., with the watchword of unconditional and unbounded love.... There is no other way of achieving this. The major ecclesiastical events of the last six years, especially our three successive meetings with His Holiness, Pope Paul VI and his recent declaration that ’no voice should be silent in the endless symphony of the Churches and the whole world,’ have abolished the distances separating us and bridged the gap.... His fellow-travelers are the Peoples of Christ. Unaware of dogmatic differences and not caring about them, they now see one another as brothers in Christ. And they live in impatient anticipation of the hour of union, and indeed, not as a distant legend, but as a profound reality deriving from within themselves. This is proof that Christ is born.... So it is that union, ceasing any longer to be ‘negotiable’ or an effort on the part of unrealistic and fruitless theological dialogues concerning union, has turned out to be practical and a fait accompli [French - ‘accomplished fact or work’] wrought by ‘peace-loving stragglers...” (from the Patriarch’s 1968 Nativity message; see Kaqolikh, No. 1611 [31 December 1968]).

“Why do we not automatically return to Mysteriological (Sacramental) communion? Because it is necessary for us to prepare our peoples for it, both theologically and psychologically. During the nine hundred years that have elapsed since 1054, we, the two worlds of East and West, have come to think that we belong to different Churches and different religions. And, as a result, the purpose of dialogues becomes quite evident. It is to prepare our peoples psychologically to understand that there is one Church and one religion, that we all believe in the same God-the Savior Christ. You and we respect all religions and we esteem the place and the time in which we live” (from a homily given by “Patriarch” Athenagoras in the chapel of Lambeth Palace, London, November 13, 1967; see Apo thn poreian thV agaphV, p. 53; see also Archimandrite Athanasios J. Vasilopoulos, From the Journey of Love... [in Greek] (Athens: 1968), p. 53a. -- These views were reiterated on January 10, 1968 (ibid., p. 87b: “Patriarchal visits and their happy results”).

And a heretical action again:

“During his meeting with Pope Paul VI in Rome, on October 26, 1967, the Patriarch sat on the Papal throne for twenty minutes, receiving primarily the Greek Orthodox in Rome, but also Russian Orthodox refugees. They applauded loudly when the Patriarch commemorated the Pope’s name in Greek” (see Kaqolikh, No. 1557 [1 November 1967]).

« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 05:41:07 PM by Gunnarr » Logged

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« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2013, 08:13:11 PM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.
lol, you should become a comedian and stop talking about subjects that you don't know about...like religion for example
Like I said, you don't have a head, so it can't be your mouth that's talking.  Which would explain the low/no information content.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:13:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: April 23, 2013, 08:14:50 PM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


to you what really  happened at fatima
mass hysteria.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:15:08 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #115 on: April 23, 2013, 08:40:16 PM »

he calls it the "HOLY" Koran, as if it has some kind of truth in it he must give it legitimacy. Did all of this just fly past you? he gifted A KORAN! a ORTHODOX BISHOP gifting a KORAN!
If he "gifted" it to an Orthodox, instead of a Muslim, I might take notice.

Muslims believe that the Qur'an is too holy for non-Muslims to touch it.  You seem to agree with them.

Anyway, here are some more great pictures of bishops breaking canons:











and some good ol heretical statements by Patriarch Athenagoras :
You are aware that EP Athenagoras has passed away over three decades, and been replaced twice.

“We are deceived and we sin, if we think that the Orthodox faith came down from Heaven and that all [other] creeds are unworthy. Three hundred million people have chosen Islam in order to reach their god, and other hundreds of millions are Protestants, Catholics, and Buddhists. The goal of every religion is to improve mankind” (from statements made by the Patriarch; see ορθόδοξος τύπος  , No. 94 [December 1968]).

“We have been seperated for 911 years and now the time has come for us to be found together again. The Catholics and the Orthodox do not belong to two different Churches, but to two branches of the same Church” (Milan, Nov. 2, 1965, Corriere de la Sera ; cited Orthodox Word, January-February-March 1966 issue, Vol. 2, No.1, p. 36).

“Recent [1970--Trans.] statements by Athenagoras. “The rason (cassock) no longer has any appeal today, neither in appearance nor in purpose. If I’d seen you beforehand, I would have told you to give some other title to your article: ‘The rason does not make the Priest, the Priest must make the Priest, without the rason’ There you have it. Of course, we must be realistic and, above all, we mustn’t be afraid of the truth. We say oftentimes that this or that item is historical and must endure. A mistake. A big mistake. How many preconceptions in the Church are not historical--I mean ancient--and we struggle to free ourselves from them? Ask village Priests what Christians want from Priests, who have nothing to do with our Church and are remnants of paganism. I’ve made my views quite clear regarding the marriage of clergymen, even after they have been ordained. Ordination is not an impediment to marriage. We would have many graduates of theological schools who would be Priests, if they knew that they could get married when they found their partner for life, and not in haste, as it’s demanded by convention. We would have decided on this at a clergy-laity congress of the Church in America, and I would have settled this matter, but I wasn’t able to. I was summoned here [to Constantinople--Trans.]. I’m glad you published the entire address by Metropolitan [Meliton] of Chalcedon [concerning Mardi Gras--editorial note in the Greek original]. He spoke the truth plain and simple, like people want it. People don’t want you to confuse things, because they think you’re laughing at them and making fun of them. Meliton is quite a personality. We don’t have many of them. He’s the voice of the Phanar, the voice of the centuries. The centuries have given us courage and strength. What else have we got here? Some people, naturally, accuse us of not holding to a good line, but they’re being negative. I’d be very happy if they proposed their own solution to the endeavor of the union of the Churches. They tell us, ’ We want union and we pray for the union of all, but we’re against your endeavor.’ You get the point? They’re in favor of union, but against our endeavor. Was not Meliton right, after all, when he talked about hypocrisy? We propose the Holy Cup as the means of union. We had the common Cup even when we separated from the West, up until 1050. The Schism took place, and we stopped. The Schism took place because of the anathema. The anathema between the two Churches, of the West and Constantinople, has been lifted. What obstacle is there? Let’s find it, let’s talk about it with a good attitude, not with insults. Can there be a dialogue of love when there are insults? ‘But we have many differences,’ they tell us. What differences? The Filioque? It existed since the seventh century, and the Churches didn’t separate. Primacy and Infallibility? What do we care about them? Let every Church maintain its own customs. If the Catholic Church wants it, let it keep it. But I ask you: What does Infallibility mean today, when the Pope has a permanent fifteen-member council in Rome which makes the decisions? Besides, we all think we’re infallible--in our work, in our thoughts, in everything. Does your wife ask you how much salt to put in the food? Certainly not. She has her infallibility. Let the Pope have his, if he wants it. We don’t want it. Theological dialogue won’t grant it. We’re not ready, and centuries will be needed. Only one dialogue is feasible: the dialogue of love. This will facilitate the dialogue regarding differences. Differences and love can’t coexist. It does not matter what others do to you, but what you do to them” (from an interview given by the Patriarch to the journalist Spyridon Alexiou, from the newspaper EqnoV, and published on March 20, 1970.) [bolded that part myself]

“Where is Christ the Savior? In our divisions, we have chased Him away.... Thus, today, does history, valiantly restoring the truth of things, summon the responsible leaders and hierarchies of the Churches to enlist theology, now as a handmaid, and make ‘man,’ for whose sake God became man, the sole purpose of their existence and mission, and portray him in a positive light, at this tragic hour of his..., with the watchword of unconditional and unbounded love.... There is no other way of achieving this. The major ecclesiastical events of the last six years, especially our three successive meetings with His Holiness, Pope Paul VI and his recent declaration that ’no voice should be silent in the endless symphony of the Churches and the whole world,’ have abolished the distances separating us and bridged the gap.... His fellow-travelers are the Peoples of Christ. Unaware of dogmatic differences and not caring about them, they now see one another as brothers in Christ. And they live in impatient anticipation of the hour of union, and indeed, not as a distant legend, but as a profound reality deriving from within themselves. This is proof that Christ is born.... So it is that union, ceasing any longer to be ‘negotiable’ or an effort on the part of unrealistic and fruitless theological dialogues concerning union, has turned out to be practical and a fait accompli [French - ‘accomplished fact or work’] wrought by ‘peace-loving stragglers...” (from the Patriarch’s 1968 Nativity message; see Kaqolikh, No. 1611 [31 December 1968]).

“Why do we not automatically return to Mysteriological (Sacramental) communion? Because it is necessary for us to prepare our peoples for it, both theologically and psychologically. During the nine hundred years that have elapsed since 1054, we, the two worlds of East and West, have come to think that we belong to different Churches and different religions. And, as a result, the purpose of dialogues becomes quite evident. It is to prepare our peoples psychologically to understand that there is one Church and one religion, that we all believe in the same God-the Savior Christ. You and we respect all religions and we esteem the place and the time in which we live” (from a homily given by “Patriarch” Athenagoras in the chapel of Lambeth Palace, London, November 13, 1967; see Apo thn poreian thV agaphV, p. 53; see also Archimandrite Athanasios J. Vasilopoulos, From the Journey of Love... [in Greek] (Athens: 1968), p. 53a. -- These views were reiterated on January 10, 1968 (ibid., p. 87b: “Patriarchal visits and their happy results”).

And a heretical action again:

“During his meeting with Pope Paul VI in Rome, on October 26, 1967, the Patriarch sat on the Papal throne for twenty minutes, receiving primarily the Greek Orthodox in Rome, but also Russian Orthodox refugees. They applauded loudly when the Patriarch commemorated the Pope’s name in Greek” (see Kaqolikh, No. 1557 [1 November 1967]).
I do believe these were dealt with while he lived.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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