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Author Topic: The Pope, Ecumenism, and Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 3786 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2013, 11:18:04 PM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
Not only that, St. John of Damascus, in the same work third from the bottom, explicitly says that the Spirit does NOT proceed from the Son.

I didn't read through all of those quotes. Quote lists are tiresome to read. But indeed, St. John Damascene is not one you want to quote in a defense of the filioque.

^^^ This is what happens when an argument is presented that is too hard for people to accept.  It's cast off, boring.

Look he quoted some of the earliest Christians, who clearly said "and the son".

That doesn't mean the bishops really cared about the filioque though... Of course, that's what we were told... but, as I've said - "They have this huge issue over "and the son", yet now hand chalices to Lutherans".

It's about power, control, jurisdiction, and money.
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2013, 11:25:48 PM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2013, 12:34:01 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew




It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

*REMEMBER* while Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDS a chalice to the Lutherans, he ATTACKS Orthodox monks http://www.esphigmenou.com/Sound/Esphigmenou%20being%20attacked%20Video.swf

That is not an agenda of Orthodoxy, it's an agenda of power & money.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 12:40:38 AM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2013, 12:45:19 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2013, 12:51:12 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.



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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2013, 12:55:29 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2013, 01:06:17 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you
 You are put on post moderation for multiple violations of the No Proselytism Rule, to wit: "Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is not allowed... If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message." If you disagree with this action, please fell free to PM me. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2013, 01:08:11 AM »

Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.

The opinion espoused by Archbishop Gregory matters to you ... or doesn't matter to me.

His All Holiness gave a chalice as a gift to a Lutheran Priest - 5 centuries ago, churches were being destroyed and looted of their chalices and other clerical equipment by a fledgling Protestant movement.

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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2013, 01:08:35 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.
The agenda.

They aren't at the altar: you can see it behind them.  The Patriarch isn't vested. So no, they aren't communing.

It looks like a Lutheran chalice, not an Orthodox one.  A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more.
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2013, 01:12:10 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted,

Except for yours with no supreme pontiff.

the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order,

No supreme pontiff, no temptation to join the new world order and 1 world religion.

you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

yeshuaisiam needs no other religion other than the one he has created for himself.
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2013, 01:13:52 AM »



Muslims who worship “the one God”.....

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."



Ecumenism is about "brotherhood" and "bringing people to Orthodoxy" or "representing Orthodoxy" Huh

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles: "If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."




Canon XXXIII of Laodicia - "One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."





There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2013, 01:19:29 AM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
Not only that, St. John of Damascus, in the same work third from the bottom, explicitly says that the Spirit does NOT proceed from the Son.

I didn't read through all of those quotes. Quote lists are tiresome to read. But indeed, St. John Damascene is not one you want to quote in a defense of the filioque.

^^^ This is what happens when an argument is presented that is too hard for people to accept.  It's cast off, boring.

Look he quoted some of the earliest Christians, who clearly said "and the son".
Still fighting the concept of context I see.  And the existence of faulty translation.

That doesn't mean the bishops really cared about the filioque though... Of course, that's what we were told... but, as I've said - "They have this huge issue over "and the son", yet now hand chalices to Lutherans".

It's about power, control, jurisdiction, and money.
Those Lutherans say "and the son": EP Jeremias II broke off dialogue with their theologians because they insisted on saying it.
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2013, 01:24:49 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
If you go to the heretical quote mine, all you can dig out is heresy.

We believe in the Holy Spirit....Who proceeds from the Father [period] Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified...[the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, AD 33, 381 and forever].

I don't have a dog in this fight... but seriously, as a complete non-practicing (or former) EO Christian, all I can say is that sedevacantist totally wins the filioque argument.

Wow, the quotes from some of the earliest Christians, verify the filioque issue, and sorry to say it leans on the RC side....

Some of the earliest Christians obviously said "and the son".  There are no arguments there.  End of story.... but...

However, as we all know, the filioque was not really the issue... was it?   That's the issue "they" tell us, but I promise it was a lot more about supremacy, jurisdiction, and money.... all about power.   Filioque, just makes it "sound good".
You can't even figure out that Anabaptist isnt' an early Christianity, and confuse late second millenium sectarianism for first century Christianity.

I'd go into the problem with the "proof" of these "proof texts," but I'm afraid you would have to be weaned off the milk before you can tolerate meat.

Jesusiamism: Other late heresies kind of jumbled together.
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2013, 01:24:59 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

I put most everything bishops have done since 300 A.D. on the table.

If they were willing to betray the canon, eucharist, and Orthodoxy (or Catholocism) I believe they'd sell out anything.

I started reading writings of the early Christians, such as Turtullian, Origen, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, etc.   I found out the church I belonged to, was practicing things that were not original at all (not being hostile just my research experience).

So I practice the Sabbath day, Messianic Jew understanding of linguistics & Jewish feasts, but my wife grew up as an Anabaptist Mennonite... Our home life revolves around that teaching (which adheres to EARLY Christian ways of living).   (Contentedness, non-costly array, modesty, fleeing from evil influences such as much music & TV).

Some people point and say "we made it up".  Tis true I guess, but its the closest thing I can find that adheres to the scriptures (as best as we can), and practices the same feasts as the earliest Christians.  I believe the "church" has been sold out a long time ago, morphed in pagan ideas, and crushed many aspects of early Christianity.  

*I do believe that most Eastern Orthodox Christians are sincere in their faith, love God, and want to do what is right.  In this world of atheism and temptation everywhere, I still support the as brothers and sisters in Christ.  I do not agree with every aspect of the EO faith, but I do believe that many elements of the Early Christians still exist in the faith.  Also, I believe the depth & richness of their teachings of faith is absolutely awesome.... But I also believe the church (on top) is hijacked, and they just can't/won't/could not stand, to admit it.
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:05 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2013, 01:27:03 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.
The agenda.

They aren't at the altar: you can see it behind them.  The Patriarch isn't vested. So no, they aren't communing.

It looks like a Lutheran chalice, not an Orthodox one.  A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more.

A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more...  Tongue

Okiedokie.
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« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2013, 01:29:10 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
If you go to the heretical quote mine, all you can dig out is heresy.

We believe in the Holy Spirit....Who proceeds from the Father [period] Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified...[the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, AD 33, 381 and forever].

I don't have a dog in this fight... but seriously, as a complete non-practicing (or former) EO Christian, all I can say is that sedevacantist totally wins the filioque argument.

Wow, the quotes from some of the earliest Christians, verify the filioque issue, and sorry to say it leans on the RC side....

Some of the earliest Christians obviously said "and the son".  There are no arguments there.  End of story.... but...

However, as we all know, the filioque was not really the issue... was it?   That's the issue "they" tell us, but I promise it was a lot more about supremacy, jurisdiction, and money.... all about power.   Filioque, just makes it "sound good".
You can't even figure out that Anabaptist isnt' an early Christianity, and confuse late second millenium sectarianism for first century Christianity.

I'd go into the problem with the "proof" of these "proof texts," but I'm afraid you would have to be weaned off the milk before you can tolerate meat.

Jesusiamism: Other late heresies kind of jumbled together.

The Anabaptists aren't early Christians....  Huh Huh

I said their FAMILY LIFESTYLE adheres to much of the traditions of early Christians.  Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
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« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2013, 01:32:57 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
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« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2013, 01:37:42 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

I put most everything bishops have done since 300 A.D. on the table.
Yes, that Great Apostasy of Constantine nonsense you Protestants are so fond of.

If they were willing to betray the canon, eucharist, and Orthodoxy (or Catholocism) I believe they'd sell out anything.
You Protestants have sold out all of the above.

I started reading writings of the early Christians, such as Turtullian, Origen, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, etc.   I found out the church I belonged to, was practicing things that were not original at all (not being hostile just my research experience).
It seems that your original research has managed to repeat a number of unoriginal heresies, and a couple of new ones, or rather modern ones.

You cut yourself off from the context of the Church, putting yourself in a vacuum of a self made tradition.

So I practice the Sabbath day, Messianic Jew understanding of linguistics & Jewish feasts, but my wife grew up as an Anabaptist Mennonite... Our home life revolves around that teaching (which adheres to EARLY Christian ways of living).   (Contentedness, non-costly array, modesty, fleeing from evil influences such as much music & TV).
Your Judaizing isn't an original heresy.  I give you that-it is a first century early heresy.

You did get circumcized, no?

Some people point and say "we made it up".  Tis true I guess
Remove all doubt.  Tis true no doubt.

but its the closest thing I can find that adheres to the scriptures (as best as we can)


and practices the same feasts as the earliest Christians.
Oh? Such as?

I believe the "church" has been sold out a long time ago, morphed in pagan ideas, and crushed many aspects of early Christianity.
Yes, and you are wrong in those beliefs.

"WE believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

*I do believe that most Eastern Orthodox Christians are sincere in their faith, love God, and want to do what is right.  In this world of atheism and temptation everywhere, I still support the as brothers and sisters in Christ.  I do not agree with every aspect of the EO faith, but I do believe that many elements of the Early Christians still exist in the faith.  Also, I believe the depth & richness of their teachings of faith is absolutely awesome.... But I also believe the church (on top) is hijacked, and they just can't/won't/could not stand, to admit it.
well, I guess we should put you in charge, no?  Sort of like we should put New York cab drivers in charge of the world, as they are the only ones who know how to run it. Just ask them.
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« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2013, 01:38:34 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2013, 01:40:32 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted,

Except for yours with no supreme pontiff.

the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order,

No supreme pontiff, no temptation to join the new world order and 1 world religion.

you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

yeshuaisiam needs no other religion other than the one he has created for himself.

Yeah but your leaders violate the very foundational rules of the church....

So in this context one could say that *YOU* need no other religion, than what some other man made up for you, that is not historical, but merely "mutated" through the years.  Those not in the "club agenda" have gotten the boot through many points of history.  You do know at one time there was no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.   That was SIMPLY made up just for you - or morphed for you.   I guess I just got tired of people making stuff up for me... So I researched stuff, and decided to take a stand.

But anyway, I'm not the one getting anointed by a RC, but an EO bishop is in the photos above.
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« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:05 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.

I guess not, because you hold the authority on this matter right?
Because I'm not "in the club", means I don't "understand the club".

The problem is, "I've been in the club, I understand the club".   As far as "Eastern Orthodox" is concerned, in adherence to "tradition" which the church has come to today, HOTCA is pretty accurate.   Of course, many people here would label them as schismatics.... Also old orthodox as schismatics.... While their own Patriarch does what?   Prays with the Pope that says "Muslims worship the one God".

I mean you just can't make this stuff up.
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« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:38 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...

Since Archbishop Gregory is in communion by himself, does he Judaize?

From the HOTCA members on this board, none of them admit to Judaizing.

If you were to join HOTCA as an active Judaizer, would they welcome you with open arms?
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« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2013, 01:45:02 AM »

The Anabaptists aren't early Christians....  Huh Huh
that that fact shocks you is telling.

I said their FAMILY LIFESTYLE adheres to much of the traditions of early Christians.
You mean like Jimmy Swaggert?

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2013, 01:48:22 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

I put most everything bishops have done since 300 A.D. on the table.
Yes, that Great Apostasy of Constantine nonsense you Protestants are so fond of.

If they were willing to betray the canon, eucharist, and Orthodoxy (or Catholocism) I believe they'd sell out anything.
You Protestants have sold out all of the above.

I started reading writings of the early Christians, such as Turtullian, Origen, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, etc.   I found out the church I belonged to, was practicing things that were not original at all (not being hostile just my research experience).
It seems that your original research has managed to repeat a number of unoriginal heresies, and a couple of new ones, or rather modern ones.

You cut yourself off from the context of the Church, putting yourself in a vacuum of a self made tradition.

So I practice the Sabbath day, Messianic Jew understanding of linguistics & Jewish feasts, but my wife grew up as an Anabaptist Mennonite... Our home life revolves around that teaching (which adheres to EARLY Christian ways of living).   (Contentedness, non-costly array, modesty, fleeing from evil influences such as much music & TV).
Your Judaizing isn't an original heresy.  I give you that-it is a first century early heresy.

You did get circumcized, no?

Some people point and say "we made it up".  Tis true I guess
Remove all doubt.  Tis true no doubt.

but its the closest thing I can find that adheres to the scriptures (as best as we can)


and practices the same feasts as the earliest Christians.
Oh? Such as?

I believe the "church" has been sold out a long time ago, morphed in pagan ideas, and crushed many aspects of early Christianity.
Yes, and you are wrong in those beliefs.

"WE believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

*I do believe that most Eastern Orthodox Christians are sincere in their faith, love God, and want to do what is right.  In this world of atheism and temptation everywhere, I still support the as brothers and sisters in Christ.  I do not agree with every aspect of the EO faith, but I do believe that many elements of the Early Christians still exist in the faith.  Also, I believe the depth & richness of their teachings of faith is absolutely awesome.... But I also believe the church (on top) is hijacked, and they just can't/won't/could not stand, to admit it.
well, I guess we should put you in charge, no?  Sort of like we should put New York cab drivers in charge of the world, as they are the only ones who know how to run it. Just ask them.

This isn't about me.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.

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« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2013, 01:54:55 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.

I guess not, because you hold the authority on this matter right?
No, God's Church does. Since you will not call her Mother, you cannot call Him Father.

Here's something for your "original research" pre-300:
Quote
And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate itself to be one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by a falsehood: let no one corrupt the truth of the faith by perfidious prevarication. The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. The Church also is one, which is spread abroad far and wide into a multitude by an increase of fruitfulness. As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source. Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree—when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated.
The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathers not with me scatters. Matthew 12:30 He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathers elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, And these three are one. 1 John 5:7 And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm

Because I'm not "in the club", means I don't "understand the club".
No, your "jumbled together" musings demonstrate you don't understand.  And trusting your own (mis)understanding, you have left "the club."

The problem is, "I've been in the club, I understand the club".
Yeah, and I was Protestant. Stalemate I guess.

As far as "Eastern Orthodox" is concerned, in adherence to "tradition" which the church has come to today, HOTCA is pretty accurate.
As you have amply demonstrated, accuracy isn't your strong point.

Of course, many people here would label them as schismatics.... Also old orthodox as schismatics.... While their own Patriarch does what?   Prays with the Pope that says "Muslims worship the one God".

I mean you just can't make this stuff up.
LOL. We all have to bow to your expertise on making stuff up.
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« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2013, 01:56:31 AM »

The Anabaptists aren't early Christians....  Huh Huh
that that fact shocks you is telling.

I said their FAMILY LIFESTYLE adheres to much of the traditions of early Christians.
You mean like Jimmy Swaggert?

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK


It wasn't a SHOCK face, it was like "why would you even say that".

Jimmy Swaggart - what on Earth are you even talking about?

The Russian pilgrims are great, though they are wearing icons which are not part of early Christian tradition...  But you know what - you are not fooling anybody.  MOST Eastern Orthodox Christians do NOT look like that.  We all know this.  There is ALSO way more to family life than looks.
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« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2013, 02:02:17 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.

I guess not, because you hold the authority on this matter right?
No, God's Church does. Since you will not call her Mother, you cannot call Him Father.

Here's something for your "original research" pre-300:
Quote
And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate itself to be one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by a falsehood: let no one corrupt the truth of the faith by perfidious prevarication. The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. The Church also is one, which is spread abroad far and wide into a multitude by an increase of fruitfulness. As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source. Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree—when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated.
The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathers not with me scatters. Matthew 12:30 He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathers elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, And these three are one. 1 John 5:7 And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm

Because I'm not "in the club", means I don't "understand the club".
No, your "jumbled together" musings demonstrate you don't understand.  And trusting your own (mis)understanding, you have left "the club."

The problem is, "I've been in the club, I understand the club".
Yeah, and I was Protestant. Stalemate I guess.

As far as "Eastern Orthodox" is concerned, in adherence to "tradition" which the church has come to today, HOTCA is pretty accurate.
As you have amply demonstrated, accuracy isn't your strong point.

Of course, many people here would label them as schismatics.... Also old orthodox as schismatics.... While their own Patriarch does what?   Prays with the Pope that says "Muslims worship the one God".

I mean you just can't make this stuff up.
LOL. We all have to bow to your expertise on making stuff up.

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.

*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:04:59 AM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2013, 02:04:28 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.
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« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2013, 02:06:10 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2013, 02:07:17 AM »


A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more...  Tongue

Okiedokie.
Yes. Being in communion with yourself, I can see how that can be confusing.
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« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2013, 02:11:02 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

There are a lot of other photos there.

EDIT, he's a Metropolitan.
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« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2013, 02:22:52 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.   

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.
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« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2013, 02:23:27 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.

They know this stuff.  They don't care.  Just like calling the chalice "a gift of a silver cup - nothing more".   Their poop can't possibly stink.... That's seriously the attitude.

Several here attack from several fronts
1) You are not Orthodox so you don't count / you don't know
2) How dare you (or IS OUTRAGE!   LOL)
3) You are lying
4) Your source is a photo hosted by ________ so since he hosts it, it's invalid
5) Nitpick specific photos (such as uncommon Russian pilgrims) that fit agendas for quick points.  (one time it was an argument about head coverings for females, and somebody posted a playboy photo cover of a lady with something over her head to make a point.)
6) Attack you, instead of addressing the point at hand
7) Dodge the specifics, address the general, miss the point, and will not hit the nail on the head
Cool Speak in "volumes of who has done it" rather than referencing the text of Early Christians (100+ years before Nicea)
9) Troll you for other arguments rather than addressing the arguments you make a valid point on, or subject matter of the thread.  
10) Contort scriptures, dropping rationale & context, in order to "prove you wrong".  

One time somebody even said "You smell bad".    Cheesy
But they were right.  I cleaned out the goat stalls that day... It was weird.

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« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2013, 02:26:15 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.

I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.
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« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2013, 02:33:06 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:34:22 AM by JamesR » Logged

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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2013, 02:35:19 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.

I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.
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« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2013, 02:37:01 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.

James, you're forgetting a very important reason why such a council will be dead in the water: the yiayia/babushka factor.
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« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2013, 02:58:40 AM »

yeshuaisiam needs no other religion other than the one he has created for himself.

Yeah but your leaders violate the very foundational rules of the church....
So did St. Peter, and yet his apostleship stood.

But Sol is in error in part: part of your religion has been created for you by the prophets of Protestantism, who rantings jumbled together you prefer to try to pass off as the Gospel Truth, rather than passing on the Holy Tradition of the Apostles.

So in this context one could say that *YOU* need no other religion, than what some other man made up for you
yes, that would be the Son of Man.

that is not historical
your lack of historical sense disqualifies you from opining in the matter.

but merely "mutated" through the years.

It's called growth.  Like a baby growing up into a man.

Do drink your milk.

Those not in the "club agenda" have gotten the boot through many points of history.

Ah, yes.  Judas, Nicolas the proselyte of Antioch (Acts 6:5; Rev. 2:6,16), Marcion, Montanus, Valentinus, Origen, Arius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Pelagius, Eutychus, Sergius, Leo....the apostolic succession of heretics and heresy.

Btw, many of the above held their boot on the Church through many points of history.  But that Son of Man Who made up our religion for us promised that the Gates of Hell would never prevail over it, and so the Church emerged triumphant every time, as she shall until the end of time.

You do know at one time there was no prayer rope
Yes, and?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

iconostasis
Yes, and?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bema

icons
we hashed through your ignorance on this matter on another thread IIRC.

If I recall, the fact that the earliest Christian remains we have, dating well before your magic 300 date, are full of icons, was mentioned.  That you chose to ignore it is your problem, not ours.

"Easter" (pagan morphed)
Of all the blantly regurgitated Protestant trash talk you post, this has to be tops-or the bottom, as it were.  There is PLENTY of historical evidence of the celebration of ALL Christians of Pascha before your magical date of 300.

"Christmas" (pagan morphed)
actually, the opposite is true.  We have discussed this before, IIRC, where I gave an article demonstrating this deluded modern fallacy is ahistorical:
CALCULATING CHRISTMAS
Quote
Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.
Now you are just wallowing in ignorance, as the existence of altars, the sacrifice of the Eucharist, liturgical objects etc are well attested from the NT to our own day.

That was SIMPLY made up just for you - or morphed for you.
Yes, by Christ and the Holy Spirit living in His Body, the Church.

I guess I just got tired of people making stuff up for me...

evidently not, as evidence by the Protestantism you have guzzled down and vomited forth.

So I researched stuff
how long did it take you to find another gospel?

and decided to take a stand.
and you fell.

But anyway, I'm not the one getting anointed by a RC, but an EO bishop is in the photos above.
who anoints you?
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« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2013, 03:01:53 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.

James, you're forgetting a very important reason why such a council will be dead in the water: the yiayia/babushka factor.

Yiayia: 45 minute Liturgy?!?!!! Outrage! *slaps EP with cane*
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« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2013, 03:03:02 AM »

This isn't about me.
Your religion is.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".
I'd hash this out with you, but it is none of your business.

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.
I see you feel the same way about knowledge.
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« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2013, 03:06:32 AM »

It wasn't a SHOCK face, it was like "why would you even say that".
Because it's true.
Jimmy Swaggart - what on Earth are you even talking about?
your Anabaptist brother.

The Russian pilgrims are great, though they are wearing icons which are not part of early Christian tradition...
your ignorance of early Christian tradition and history is showing.

But you know what - you are not fooling anybody.  MOST Eastern Orthodox Christians do NOT look like that.  We all know this.  There is ALSO way more to family life than looks.
Indeed. Elaborate on that thought.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
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Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
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« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2013, 03:11:12 AM »

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh
Your sources have been cross checked and found wanting, and your interpretation carries even less weight.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.
put the projector away.
*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
Before Your Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Your Holy Resurrection we glorify.

We have been doing that ever since He rose on the third day.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 03:11:36 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,184



« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2013, 03:12:54 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.
You sure?  I can't really tell from the angle, but he looks like a Melkite bishop whose name escapes me.

If so, he should give account.  The EP isn't the only one he is accountable to.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 03:13:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,184



« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2013, 03:15:38 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.

I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.
So you are saying that HOTCA is the truest expression of a false tradition.

You do need some sleep.

And it is later than you think.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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