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Author Topic: The Pope, Ecumenism, and Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 3310 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: April 15, 2013, 05:39:12 PM »

If you are easily offended, please click off this thread for now.  In respect for lent, our focus should be on Christ, his suffering for us, his death, and eventually his resurrection.   I'm posting this as this is brand new.
It shows the ecumenical dialog between the Pope, Muslims, and Eastern Orthodox.  Pope address that the Muslims worship "the one God", and is also trying to fix the G. Schism.

Source: http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/is-pope-francis-laying-the-groundwork-for-a-one-world-religion

QUOTE:
Quote
Does Pope Francis intend to help the global elite achieve their goal of uniting all of the religions of the world under a single banner?  Will he be instrumental in establishing a single global religion for the glorious “new age” that the global elite believe is coming?  After he was elected, the cover of Time Magazine declared Pope Francis to be the “New World Pope“, and since his election Pope Francis has made it abundantly clear that he is going to make ecumenical outreach a top priority.  He has spoken of his “determination to continue on the path of ecumenical dialogue“, and he has already held a number of very high profile ecumenical meetings.  Not only has he worked hard to reach out to leaders from various Christian traditions, he has also made it a point to try to acknowledge the mutual bonds that he feels with all other religions.  For example, in one recent address he made it a point to say that he believes that Muslims worship and pray to the “one God” that he also worships.  This “all roads lead to the same God” philosophy is a hallmark of the one world religion that the global elite have been slowly building toward for decades.  The global elite know that even with a one world economy and a one world government, humanity will never be truly united until there is a single global religion.  Unfortunately, this one world religion that they are seeking to establish is diametrically opposed to the Christianity that we find in the Bible.  By throwing out Biblical truth for the sake of “friendship between men and women of different religious traditions“, is Pope Francis fundamentally betraying the faith that he claims to represent?

If there is going to be a one world religion, there will have to be a bond formed between Roman Catholicism and Islam.  They are the two largest religious traditions on the planet, and so any truly “global religion” would definitely require the participation of both of them.

That is one reason why what Pope Francis has already had to say about Islam is so noteworthy.  The following comes from remarks that he made during his very first ecumenical meeting…

    I then greet and cordially thank you all, dear friends belonging to other religious traditions; first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you. I really appreciate your presence: in it I see a tangible sign of the will to grow in mutual esteem and cooperation for the common good of humanity.

    The Catholic Church is aware of the importance of promoting friendship and respect between men and women of different religious traditions – I wish to repeat this: promoting friendship and respect between men and women of different religious traditions – it also attests the valuable work that the Pontifical Council for interreligious dialogue performs.

But are “Allah” and the God of the Bible the same thing?

Of course not.  For example, Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God.  Muslims deny this vehemently.  For much more on why “Allah” and the God of the Bible are not the same, please see this article.

So either Pope Francis is denying the divinity of Jesus Christ, or he is exhibiting a frightening ignorance of basic Christian theology, or there is some other agenda at work here.

During that same ecumenical meeting, Pope Francis also made it a point to state that he feels “close” to those that belong “to any religious tradition”…

    In this, we feel close even to all those men and women who, whilst not recognizing themselves belonging to any religious tradition, feel themselves nevertheless to be in search of truth, goodness and beauty, this truth, goodness and beauty of God, and who are our precious allies in efforts to defend the dignity of man, in building a peaceful coexistence among peoples and in guarding Creation carefully.

It is one thing to love people and to seek to build friendships with them, but it is another thing entirely to throw out the most basic beliefs of the faith that you supposedly represent in order to promote a specific agenda.

And Pope Francis definitely appears to have an agenda.  On another occasion, Pope Francis declared that it was time “to intensify dialogue” with other religions, and that he was “thinking particularly of dialogue with Islam.”

But this affinity for Islam did not just begin recently.  The truth is that Pope Francis was working hard to build bridges with Islam even when he was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires…

    “His humility drew my attention,” Sheik Mohsen Ali, an important Islamic leader in Argentina, told the Buenos Aires Herald. He “always showed himself a friend of the Islamic community.”

And Pope Francis has a reputation for being a cleric that really “knows Islam“…

    Sumer Noufouri, secretary-general of the Islamic Center of the Republic of Argentina, told the Buenos Aires Herald that the new pope is a “respectful, pro-dialogue person who knows Islam.”

But of course Pope Francis is not just reaching out to the Islamic world.

He has also been working hard to “intensify dialogue” with other Christian traditions.

In particular, he seems quite interested in improving relations with the Orthodox churches of the east…

    Before his address, the pope had a private meeting with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew from Istanbul, who attended Francis’s inaugural Mass on Tuesday.

    It was the first time the spiritual head of Orthodox Christians had attended a Roman pope’s inaugural Mass since the Great Schism between western and eastern Christianity in 1054.

    At Wednesday’s meeting, Francis called Bartholomew “my brother Andrew,” a reference to the apostle who was the brother of St. Peter and was the first bishop of the Church of Byzantium.

    Francis also held a private session with Metropolitan Hilarion, the foreign minister of the Russian Orthodox Church, the largest in the Orthodox world.

It won’t happen tomorrow, of course, but could Pope Francis be the Pope that brings the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox back together?

And of course a one world religion will not appear overnight either.  There are far too many differences to overcome right now.

But as the world becomes increasingly unstable, people are going to be looking for answers.  After the world is ravaged by economic collapse, food shortages, nightmarish pandemics, unprecedented natural disasters and horrifying wars, will it finally be ready for a one world religion that promises “peace and friendship” among all of the religions of the globe?

This is something to watch for in the years ahead.  The global elite desperately want a single global religion, and they will keep moving things in that direction.

For now, Pope Francis just seems to be laying the groundwork for the one world religion that is coming.  There is a 900-year-old prophecy that indicates that Pope Francis could be the last Pope.  If that prophecy is true, then it will be very important to watch the actions of this Pope very carefully.

***Note the Spiritual Head of the Orthodox Christians attended Mass.
Please, reference the Canons of the Holy Apostles

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles
"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia
"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

The Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew, attends Mass, with a Bishop (the Pope), who has called the Muslim's God "The One God".

Discuss?
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 08:09:40 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 08:52:07 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....   

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.   
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 09:03:41 PM »

Look this is not an easy topic.  St. John of Damascus did not view the Saracens (Muslims) as worshipping a different god but as having a heretical view of the one God.  Even if you see it as a different god, can you see this as a legitimate position within the bounds of Christianity? 
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 09:06:31 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....  

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.  
because most people don't want the truth and are lost, just like vatican 2  catholics who can't accept that their pope is not catholic, that it's clear Rome has lost the faith, they accept this ecumenism nonsense, they would rather be lovey dovey and accepting of the schismatic eastern orthodox and protestants and believe they will be saved ...true catholics on the other hand understand that we are to try and convert the eastern orthodox and protestants to catholicism since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

You are put on warning status for 99 days because of two violations:

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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 09:10:20 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....   

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.   
because most people don't want the truth and are lost, just like vatican 2  catholics who can't accept that their pope is not catholic, that it's clear Rome has lost the faith, they accept this ecumenism nonsense, they would rather be lovey dovey and accepting of the schismatic eastern orthodox and protestants and believe they will be saved ...true catholics on the other hand understand that we are to try and convert the eastern orthodox and protestants to catholicism since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Isa, I was going to respond, but I give this Lenten gift to you.
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 09:37:43 PM »

Look this is not an easy topic.  St. John of Damascus did not view the Saracens (Muslims) as worshipping a different god but as having a heretical view of the one God.  Even if you see it as a different god, can you see this as a legitimate position within the bounds of Christianity? 

Father, do you have a link or quote to share on this?  Does St. John of Damascus actually say that the Saracens worship the same God, just incorrectly?  You say that according to St. John the Muslims have a heretical view of the one God.  Yet, to worship one's heretical view is to worship a different God than the true God. 
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 10:11:02 PM »

Here is a very important analysis that was published on the Patriarchate's website: The Extraordinary Historical Significance of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew's Presence at Pope Francis' Installation as Bishop of Rome, by George E. Demacopoulos, PhD, Archon Didaskalos tou Genous, Historian for the Order of St. Andrew, Orthodox Christian Studies Center, Fordham University.

The gist of the analysis is: "First and foremost it is a powerful symbolic gesture for the cause of Christian unity. It demonstrates in unprecedented fashion the extent to which the Ecumenical Patriarch considers the relationship with the Roman Catholic Church to be a priority."
http://www.patriarchate.org/news/releases/patriarch-present-at-pope-francis-installation

What is extraordinary also is that Patriarch Bartholomew undertook this extraordinary step without the public approval of his fellow primates. He did so, in his own words, "As the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the worldwide Orthodox Church of Christ.."
http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=620

In other words, the Patriarch of Constantinople appears to have doubled down on his Canon 28 argument. I wonder how this may affect the Regional Assemblies and what Moscow's reaction is going to be? Almost coincidentally, the two non-Moscow jurisdictions (UAOC and UOCKP)  in the Ukraine just joined forces. Will Moscow see the hand of Constantinople in this? I am asking because supposedly Patriarch Bartholomew has said that if the UAOC and UOCKP were united that would be overcoming one of the major obstacles to obtaining canonical recognition. See post by Cossack 316 on a separate thread. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50982.msg909045.html#msg909045
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 11:02:44 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....   

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.   
because most people don't want the truth and are lost, just like vatican 2  catholics who can't accept that their pope is not catholic, that it's clear Rome has lost the faith, they accept this ecumenism nonsense, they would rather be lovey dovey and accepting of the schismatic eastern orthodox and protestants and believe they will be saved ...true catholics on the other hand understand that we are to try and convert the eastern orthodox and protestants to catholicism since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Isa, I was going to respond, but I give this Lenten gift to you.

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2013, 12:41:35 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....   

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.   
because most people don't want the truth and are lost, just like vatican 2  catholics who can't accept that their pope is not catholic, that it's clear Rome has lost the faith, they accept this ecumenism nonsense, they would rather be lovey dovey and accepting of the schismatic eastern orthodox and protestants and believe they will be saved ...true catholics on the other hand understand that we are to try and convert the eastern orthodox and protestants to catholicism since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Isa, I was going to respond, but I give this Lenten gift to you.

I hear the rustling sound of maps being unrolled.  Grin Grin
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2013, 01:11:26 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....   

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.   
because most people don't want the truth and are lost, just like vatican 2  catholics who can't accept that their pope is not catholic, that it's clear Rome has lost the faith, they accept this ecumenism nonsense, they would rather be lovey dovey and accepting of the schismatic eastern orthodox and protestants and believe they will be saved ...true catholics on the other hand understand that we are to try and convert the eastern orthodox and protestants to catholicism since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Isa, I was going to respond, but I give this Lenten gift to you.

I hear the rustling sound of maps being unrolled.  Grin Grin
I've been a little groggy and fear that stooping to sede's level will place me at a disadvantage, where he can beat me with this vast experience with non-facts.  Sort of like his non-pope of his headless Ultramontanist confession that demands obedience from all to an empty chair which they cannot fill.
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2013, 01:14:40 PM »

Here is a very important analysis that was published on the Patriarchate's website: The Extraordinary Historical Significance of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew's Presence at Pope Francis' Installation as Bishop of Rome, by George E. Demacopoulos, PhD, Archon Didaskalos tou Genous, Historian for the Order of St. Andrew, Orthodox Christian Studies Center, Fordham University.

The gist of the analysis is: "First and foremost it is a powerful symbolic gesture for the cause of Christian unity. It demonstrates in unprecedented fashion the extent to which the Ecumenical Patriarch considers the relationship with the Roman Catholic Church to be a priority."
http://www.patriarchate.org/news/releases/patriarch-present-at-pope-francis-installation

What is extraordinary also is that Patriarch Bartholomew undertook this extraordinary step without the public approval of his fellow primates. He did so, in his own words, "As the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the worldwide Orthodox Church of Christ.."
http://www.archons.org/news/detail.asp?id=620

In other words, the Patriarch of Constantinople appears to have doubled down on his Canon 28 argument. I wonder how this may affect the Regional Assemblies and what Moscow's reaction is going to be? Almost coincidentally, the two non-Moscow jurisdictions (UAOC and UOCKP)  in the Ukraine just joined forces. Will Moscow see the hand of Constantinople in this? I am asking because supposedly Patriarch Bartholomew has said that if the UAOC and UOCKP were united that would be overcoming one of the major obstacles to obtaining canonical recognition. See post by Cossack 316 on a separate thread. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,50982.msg909045.html#msg909045
The act itself wasn't really a problem, as most Orthodox Churches sent representatives.  The OCA had Met. Tikhon (many years!) and the Romanians sent the bishop of Rome.

The spin, of course, is a problem. I expect that bubble will burst (like Chambessy) once the PoM meets with the Pope of the Vatican.
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 01:51:00 PM »



I hear the rustling sound of maps being unrolled.  Grin Grin
[/quote]
I've been a little groggy and fear that stooping to sede's level will place me at a disadvantage, where he can beat me with this vast experience with non-facts.  Sort of like his non-pope of his headless Ultramontanist confession that demands obedience from all to an empty chair which they cannot fill.
[/quote]

No sign of grogginess in that line!
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 03:57:53 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics. I don't care how much people here might try to make up excuses for the Ecumenical Patriarch or Pope. The Scriptures say it plain and simple that "He who denies the Son does NOT have the Father either." Muslims reject the divinity of Jesus, therefore, they do not have the Father. it's that simple. There really is no way around it. It's amazing how much people will try to twist the Scriptures or try to get around and brush over this fact in order to defend their ecumenist heirarchs or because they are afraid of looking impolite in front of Muslims.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 03:58:04 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 04:02:02 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 04:08:57 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police

I never said that Roman Catholics and the Orthodox worship the same God  police Only that Muslims worship a different God than both of them.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 05:54:33 PM »

There is a difference between saying "Muslims worship but hold incorrect beliefs about the God who created all things and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" and "we believe all the same things". Also promoting friendship and "cooperation for the common good of humanity" doesn't mean holding a common faith either.

My personal opinion would be that the author of the article is making the above quotes out to be more than what they are out of a personal bias against Rome.

Also my personal opinion, if Pope Francis can restore relations with our bishops by exercising the humility that belongs to a true "servant of the servants of God" (of course with the restoration of the creed, etc) - then glory to God.

He said:
"first of all the Muslims, who worship the one God, living and merciful, and call upon Him in prayer, and all of you."

Who is the "one god to the Pope"?
Who is the "one god to the Pope, that is trying to mend the schism with EO".

If he can say "Muslims worship the one God", yet Muslims deny Christ....   

I'm in disagreement with you that the author is exaggerating exact quotes.  When he states "Muslims worship the one God", he means exactly that.   I don't understand how any EO could be a part of this, or even consider mending the schism with him.   
because most people don't want the truth and are lost, just like vatican 2  catholics who can't accept that their pope is not catholic, that it's clear Rome has lost the faith, they accept this ecumenism nonsense, they would rather be lovey dovey and accepting of the schismatic eastern orthodox and protestants and believe they will be saved ...true catholics on the other hand understand that we are to try and convert the eastern orthodox and protestants to catholicism since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

Isa, I was going to respond, but I give this Lenten gift to you.

I hear the rustling sound of maps being unrolled.  Grin Grin
I've been a little groggy and fear that stooping to sede's level will place me at a disadvantage, where he can beat me with this vast experience with non-facts.  Sort of like his non-pope of his headless Ultramontanist confession that demands obedience from all to an empty chair which they cannot fill.
yes yes non facts like how the pope is a proven heretic but I guess I should still follow him according to you because by golly I won't know how to act without an active pope at the helm, you fail to understand that true catholics have the magisterium, the true teachings of  past popes who would have condemned he following :

That is why Benedict XVI joins Paul VI and John Paul II in praising the overturning of the excommunications against the “Orthodox” – and therefore in denying Vatican I

Benedict XVI, Ecumenical Message to Schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople, Nov. 26, 2005: “This year we commemorate the 40th Anniversary of 7 December 1965, that day on which Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras, dissatisfied with what had occurred in 1054, decided together at Rome and Constantinople ‘to cancel from the Church’s memory the sentence of excommunication which had been pronounced.Orthodox] Church in Istanbul.38]

 

Benedict XVI encourages the non-Catholic, schismatic patriarch to resume his non-Catholic and schismatic ministry.  Further, on his trip to Turkey, Benedict XVI recalled John Paul II’s gesture of giving relics to the schismatics.  Benedict XVI said that such an action is a sign of communion.

 

Benedict XVI, Speech to schismatic patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 29, 2006: “… St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. John Chrysostom… Their relics rest in basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, and a part of them were given to your Holiness as a sign of communion by the late Pope John Paul II for veneration in this very cathedral.
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 08:37:23 PM »

I've been a little groggy and fear that stooping to sede's level will place me at a disadvantage, where he can beat me with this vast experience with non-facts.  Sort of like his non-pope of his headless Ultramontanist confession that demands obedience from all to an empty chair which they cannot fill.
yes yes non facts like how the pope is a proven heretic
No, he's Orthodox.


but I guess I should still follow him according to you because by golly I won't know how to act without an active pope at the helm, you fail to understand that true catholics have the magisterium, the true teachings of  past popes who would have condemned he following :
you mean the heretical pope who created your "magisterium" and the "Pastor Aeternus" who taught this?:
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On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.

2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood.

3. Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the Church which he once received.

4. For this reason it has always been necessary for every Church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body.

5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.
you stand condemned by him.

That is why Benedict XVI joins Paul VI and John Paul II in praising the overturning of the excommunications against the “Orthodox” – and therefore in denying Vatican I
you deny Vatican I by overturning the canonical election of your popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I and II, Benedict XVI and Francis, which taught "Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error...So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema."  Anathema: that means you.

That Vatican I was proven false isn't my problem.

Benedict XVI, Ecumenical Message to Schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople, Nov. 26, 2005: “This year we commemorate the 40th Anniversary of 7 December 1965, that day on which Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras, dissatisfied with what had occurred in 1054, decided together at Rome and Constantinople ‘to cancel from the Church’s memory the sentence of excommunication which had been pronounced.’
Constantinople isn't in schism, nor is there been a schismatic/heretical patriarch of it since the Vatican abolished its Latin patriarch of Constantinople.

In the year 1054, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, broke communion with the Catholic Church and the pope of Rome.  Cerularius rejected the supreme authority of the pope and closed Roman Rite churches in Constantinople.  Cerularius was excommunicated by Pope St. Leo IX, and the Great Schism of the East was formalized.
Pope Leo IX insisted on backing his Ultramontanist claims with the Donation of Constantine, and EP Michael just laughed at that forgery and Pope Leo's false claims based on it.  Cardinal Humbert attempted to excommunicate the Catholic Church, but the Patriarch excommunicated him, Umbert's boss already having left Catholic communion with the Orthodox bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Thus, what “occurred in 1054,” mentioned by Benedict XVI above, refers to the excommunications leveled by the Catholic Church against those who followed Michael Cerularius into schism and into a rejection of the Papacy.  Paul VI “lifted” these excommunications at the end of Vatican II, and John Paul II praised and commemorated the lifting of them many times.  Now we see that Benedict XVI follows John Paul II’s example and also commemorates the event.
they're your supreme pontiffs.  Deal with it.

The Catholic Church leveled excommunication against those who opposed EP Michael Cerularius, who upheld, like Pope Leo III and unlike Popes Benedict VIII and Leo IX, the unadulterated Creed of the Catholic Church.

All of this simply means that Paul VI, John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have attempted to overturn the Papacy as a dogma which must be believed under pain of heresy and excommunication.  But as we saw already, Vatican I declared many times and in many ways that those who reject the dogma of the Papacy are anathematized, cut off from the Faith.  Hence, to attempt to overturn the excommunications against those who still reject the Papacy is simply to boldly reject the teaching of Vatican I.  It’s formal heresy and schism signified in word and deed.
Alas for you, according to Vatican I, your supreme pontiff is judged by no one, so according to it you are anathematized and cut off from the Faith.

Benedict XVI prays ecumenical Vespers with schismatics and Protestants and says he loves the schismatic Orthodox Church

Benedict XVI praying ecumenical Vespers on Sept. 12, 2006.[32]  This is active participation in non-Catholic worship.  It is a manifestation of heresy by deed.

Benedict XVI, Address during ecumenical Vespers service, Sept. 12, 2006: “Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ!  We are gathered, Orthodox Christians, Catholics and Protestants – and together with us there are also some Jewish friends – to sing together the evening praise of God… This is an hour of gratitude for the fact that we can pray together in this way and, by turning to the Lord, at the same time grow in unity among ourselves… Among those gathered for this evening’s Vespers, I would like first to greet warmly the representatives of the Orthodox Church.  I have always considered it a special gift of God’s Providence that, as a professor at Bonn, I was able to come to know and to love the Orthodox Church, personally as it were, through two young Archimandrites, Stylianos Harkianakis and Damaskinos Papandreou, both of whom later became Metropolitans… Our koinonia [communion] is above all communion with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit; it is communion with the triune God, made possible by the Lord through his incarnation and the outpouring of the Spirit.  This communion with God creates in turn koinonia among people, as a participation in the faith of the Apostles…
what "Orthodox Church" you talking about?  The Church of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, of EP Bartholomew, Pope Theodore II, Patriarch John X, Patriarch Theophilos III, Patriarch Kyril, Catholicos Ilya II, Patriarch Irinej, Patriarch Daniel, Metropolitan Cyril, Archbishop Hieronymos II, Archbishop Chrysostomos II, Archbishop Anastasios, Metropolitan Sawa, Metropolitan Simeon  and Metropolitan Tikhon is in communion with Our Head, Our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

What can be more heretical than saying: “I love the schismatic Church”?  He then indicates that he, the schismatics, and the Protestants have a communion with God, communion with each other, and communion with the Faith of the Apostles.  This is all totally heretical.  Benedict XVI is a public heretic in communion with non-Catholics.
but according to Pastor Aeternus, he is your supreme pontiff (or was).

Benedict XVI’s worst heresy?  He prays with the leader of the world’s “Orthodox” schismatics and signs a Joint Declaration with him telling him he’s in the Church of Christ

 BBC News, Nov. 29, 2006 –“Benedict XVI has met Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I in Turkey, on the second day of a landmark visit to the largely Muslim country.  The Istanbul talks with the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians aimed to heal an old rift.  The two leaders began their meeting by holding a joint prayer service at the St George [Orthodox] Church in Istanbul.
It is his links to Pope Pius IX that kept him in heresy and schism, not his relationship with the EP.

During his 2006 trip to Turkey, Benedict XVI went into two schismatic cathedrals and met with three schismatic patriarchs, including the leader of the world’s schismatics: Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I.  Benedict XVI not only committed a forbidden act of communication in sacred things with the schismatic, but he may have committed his worst heresy in his joint declaration with him.
EP Bartholomew isn't the leader of any schismatics.  An icon of the Head of the Orthodox Church is here behind EP Bartholomew's throne.

Benedict XVI, Joint Declaration with Schismatic Patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 30, 2006: “This fraternal encounter which brings us together, Pope Benedict XVI of Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, is God's work, and in a certain sense his gift.  We give thanks to the Author of all that is good, who allows us once again, in prayer and in dialogue, to express the joy we feel as brothers and to renew our commitment to move towards full communion. This commitment comes from the Lord's will and from our responsibility as Pastors in the Church of Christ… As far as relations between the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople are concerned, we cannot fail to recall the solemn ecclesial act effacing the memory of the ancient anathemas which for centuries had a negative effect on our Churches.

What can be more heretical? Declaring in an "Apostolic Constitution" that the pope is infallible and has jurisdiction over the Church.

Pastor Aeternus put Pope Benedict XVI in office as "schismatic leader of the world's schismatics," as you put it.

Benedict XVI made this formally heretical declaration in a schismatic cathedral as part of a joint declaration during a divine liturgy with a notorious schismatic!  Thus, it’s official: Benedict XVI has declared in a public joint declaration that one can reject the Papacy, Papal Infallibility, Vatican I, etc. and be in the Church of Christ.

That is how one enters the Church of Christ from your heretical and schismatic beliefs.

He is without any doubt a public heretic.  Anyone who denies this, in light of these facts, is also a heretic.  Even the most dishonest and hardened defender of Antipope Benedict XVI will find it impossible to explain this one away.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#15), June 29, 1896 – Bishops Separated from Peter and his Successors Lose All Jurisdiction: “From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest.  They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from that Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone… No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.
and yet you rant on against your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus.

All of this heresy from Benedict XVI is also a total mockery of the saints and martyrs who suffered because they refused to become Eastern “Orthodox,” as was covered earlier in the section entitled: Catholics who were tortured and martyred because they refused to become Eastern Schismatics.
You mean like St. EP Photios or St. Peter the Aleut.

 
That is why Benedict XVI even encourages the Schismatic Patriarch to Resume His Ministry

Benedict XVI, Address, Nov. 12, 2005: “In this regard, I ask you, venerable

Brothers, to convey my cordial greeting to Patriarch Maxim, First Hierarch of the Orthodox Church of Bulgaria.  Please express to him my best wishes for his health and for the happy resumption of his ministry.
who are you to question your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus?

Benedict XVI, Speech to schismatic patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 29, 2006: “… St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. John Chrysostom… Their relics rest in basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, and a part of them were given to your Holiness as a sign of communion by the late Pope John Paul II for veneration in this very cathedral.
dogmas of heretics like Pastor Aeternus rejects communion with the Church.

You took your odds with Pastor Aeternus, and so Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis are the horses you bet on.
 
Benedict XVI’s incredible heresy on the schismatic “Archbishop” of Athens

Benedict XVI, Address, Oct. 30, 2006: “I am also pleased to address my thoughts and good wishes to His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece: I ask the Lord to sustain his farsightedness and prudence in carrying the demanding service that the Lord has entrusted to his care.  Through him I wish to greet with deep affection the holy synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece and the faithful whom it serves lovingly and with apostolic dedication.
The Church, professing her unity, commemorates the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece, as he teaches the Catholic dogmatic teachings.

And we don't depend on the Vatican newspaper ex cathedra telling us so.

I'm sure you do.

You might try original thought for a change.

the post-Vatican II sect is a huge manifestation of evil at the very least, a Counter Church of the Devil.  Well, the post-Vatican II sect loves Eastern Orthodoxy.  That should tell you something.  If E. Orthodoxy were true, the post-Vatican II antipopes would hate it.  The post-Vatican II antipopes, whose mission from the Devil is to embrace all the major breaches of God’s truth in history (the pagan religions, the Islamic religion, the heretical sects and the E. Orthodox schism) reaches out to and wants to unite with E. Orthodoxy (and Protestantism) because the Devil knows that E. Orthodoxy was one of those major movements of rejection of God’s truth by which he has ensnared millions of souls.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/refuting_eastern_orthodox.php
ah the hatred of the pre-Vatican II sect, truly a wonder to behold.  Ranting and raging because their built their hope on sand, demanding obedience to a pontiff who no longer exists and cannot be replaced.

Since Orthodoxy is true, and you say anti-popes would hate it then, and your claim that your popes before Pope John XXIII hated Orthodoxy, I guess that indicates you have been following anti-popes all along.

But then what does the hurling of the charge of schismatic by schismatics mean?  Not much.
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2013, 09:39:26 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2013, 09:51:12 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics. I don't care how much people here might try to make up excuses for the Ecumenical Patriarch or Pope. The Scriptures say it plain and simple that "He who denies the Son does NOT have the Father either." Muslims reject the divinity of Jesus, therefore, they do not have the Father. it's that simple. There really is no way around it. It's amazing how much people will try to twist the Scriptures or try to get around and brush over this fact in order to defend their ecumenist heirarchs or because they are afraid of looking impolite in front of Muslims.

James, you absolutely knocked it out of the park on this one.   There is no defense.

Ecumenism is the catalyst that incepted my drive from the church.  I did not see how a "quick consecration" could be done in a tent that a pagan ceremony was just held... KNOWING, that a pagan/heretical ceremony would be held after.

There is no bend, twist, or distortion that can justify this.  

The bottom line is this, and it hurts to say it.  People are often willing to defend their bishops more so than defend Christ.   Pope states - "Muslims worship the same God" - The Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew should have STOOD UP, shook the dust, and left.  

I honestly do believe most EO Christians do not like this stuff.  Most EO Christians want to be Orthodox Christians.  If you consider all the trouble ecumenism has caused the church....

It's strange...  

Even under the guise of "unity / fellowship", an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch would rather have "unity / fellowship" with a man that states "Muslims worship the one God", RATHER THAN their own Eastern Orthodox brothers & sisters, who had to schism because of ecumenism.   Rather than casting aside ecumenism in love for their Orthodox brothers and sisters for unity, he embraces it and pursues a relationship with the RC church that thinks "Muslims worship the one God".   I absolutely know the people on this forum are smart enough to see this.  

James is correct imho, there is no excuse for this.  
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 09:55:01 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

So in 1054, a simple phrase "and the son", helps divide the church.

But today, EO patriarch Bartholomew can hand chalices to Lutherans, and participate in ecumenism embracing the Pope as a "brother", while the Pope claims "MUSLIMS worship the one God".

Unbelievable.

I'm sorry guys, I'm not trying to rile anybody up.  I respect lent. Please forgive me if I have.  But seriously, you just can't make this stuff up.
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 10:04:52 PM »

I've been a little groggy and fear that stooping to sede's level will place me at a disadvantage, where he can beat me with this vast experience with non-facts.  Sort of like his non-pope of his headless Ultramontanist confession that demands obedience from all to an empty chair which they cannot fill.
yes yes non facts like how the pope is a proven heretic
No, he's Orthodox.


but I guess I should still follow him according to you because by golly I won't know how to act without an active pope at the helm, you fail to understand that true catholics have the magisterium, the true teachings of  past popes who would have condemned he following :
you mean the heretical pope who created your "magisterium" and the "Pastor Aeternus" who taught this?:
Quote
On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.

2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood.

3. Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the Church which he once received.

4. For this reason it has always been necessary for every Church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body.

5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.
you stand condemned by him.

That is why Benedict XVI joins Paul VI and John Paul II in praising the overturning of the excommunications against the “Orthodox” – and therefore in denying Vatican I
you deny Vatican I by overturning the canonical election of your popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I and II, Benedict XVI and Francis, which taught "Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error...So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema."  Anathema: that means you.

That Vatican I was proven false isn't my problem.

Benedict XVI, Ecumenical Message to Schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople, Nov. 26, 2005: “This year we commemorate the 40th Anniversary of 7 December 1965, that day on which Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras, dissatisfied with what had occurred in 1054, decided together at Rome and Constantinople ‘to cancel from the Church’s memory the sentence of excommunication which had been pronounced.’
Constantinople isn't in schism, nor is there been a schismatic/heretical patriarch of it since the Vatican abolished its Latin patriarch of Constantinople.

In the year 1054, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, broke communion with the Catholic Church and the pope of Rome.  Cerularius rejected the supreme authority of the pope and closed Roman Rite churches in Constantinople.  Cerularius was excommunicated by Pope St. Leo IX, and the Great Schism of the East was formalized.
Pope Leo IX insisted on backing his Ultramontanist claims with the Donation of Constantine, and EP Michael just laughed at that forgery and Pope Leo's false claims based on it.  Cardinal Humbert attempted to excommunicate the Catholic Church, but the Patriarch excommunicated him, Umbert's boss already having left Catholic communion with the Orthodox bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Thus, what “occurred in 1054,” mentioned by Benedict XVI above, refers to the excommunications leveled by the Catholic Church against those who followed Michael Cerularius into schism and into a rejection of the Papacy.  Paul VI “lifted” these excommunications at the end of Vatican II, and John Paul II praised and commemorated the lifting of them many times.  Now we see that Benedict XVI follows John Paul II’s example and also commemorates the event.
they're your supreme pontiffs.  Deal with it.

The Catholic Church leveled excommunication against those who opposed EP Michael Cerularius, who upheld, like Pope Leo III and unlike Popes Benedict VIII and Leo IX, the unadulterated Creed of the Catholic Church.

All of this simply means that Paul VI, John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have attempted to overturn the Papacy as a dogma which must be believed under pain of heresy and excommunication.  But as we saw already, Vatican I declared many times and in many ways that those who reject the dogma of the Papacy are anathematized, cut off from the Faith.  Hence, to attempt to overturn the excommunications against those who still reject the Papacy is simply to boldly reject the teaching of Vatican I.  It’s formal heresy and schism signified in word and deed.
Alas for you, according to Vatican I, your supreme pontiff is judged by no one, so according to it you are anathematized and cut off from the Faith.

Benedict XVI prays ecumenical Vespers with schismatics and Protestants and says he loves the schismatic Orthodox Church

Benedict XVI praying ecumenical Vespers on Sept. 12, 2006.[32]  This is active participation in non-Catholic worship.  It is a manifestation of heresy by deed.

Benedict XVI, Address during ecumenical Vespers service, Sept. 12, 2006: “Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ!  We are gathered, Orthodox Christians, Catholics and Protestants – and together with us there are also some Jewish friends – to sing together the evening praise of God… This is an hour of gratitude for the fact that we can pray together in this way and, by turning to the Lord, at the same time grow in unity among ourselves… Among those gathered for this evening’s Vespers, I would like first to greet warmly the representatives of the Orthodox Church.  I have always considered it a special gift of God’s Providence that, as a professor at Bonn, I was able to come to know and to love the Orthodox Church, personally as it were, through two young Archimandrites, Stylianos Harkianakis and Damaskinos Papandreou, both of whom later became Metropolitans… Our koinonia [communion] is above all communion with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit; it is communion with the triune God, made possible by the Lord through his incarnation and the outpouring of the Spirit.  This communion with God creates in turn koinonia among people, as a participation in the faith of the Apostles…
what "Orthodox Church" you talking about?  The Church of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, of EP Bartholomew, Pope Theodore II, Patriarch John X, Patriarch Theophilos III, Patriarch Kyril, Catholicos Ilya II, Patriarch Irinej, Patriarch Daniel, Metropolitan Cyril, Archbishop Hieronymos II, Archbishop Chrysostomos II, Archbishop Anastasios, Metropolitan Sawa, Metropolitan Simeon  and Metropolitan Tikhon is in communion with Our Head, Our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

What can be more heretical than saying: “I love the schismatic Church”?  He then indicates that he, the schismatics, and the Protestants have a communion with God, communion with each other, and communion with the Faith of the Apostles.  This is all totally heretical.  Benedict XVI is a public heretic in communion with non-Catholics.
but according to Pastor Aeternus, he is your supreme pontiff (or was).

Benedict XVI’s worst heresy?  He prays with the leader of the world’s “Orthodox” schismatics and signs a Joint Declaration with him telling him he’s in the Church of Christ

 BBC News, Nov. 29, 2006 –“Benedict XVI has met Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I in Turkey, on the second day of a landmark visit to the largely Muslim country.  The Istanbul talks with the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians aimed to heal an old rift.  The two leaders began their meeting by holding a joint prayer service at the St George [Orthodox] Church in Istanbul.
It is his links to Pope Pius IX that kept him in heresy and schism, not his relationship with the EP.

During his 2006 trip to Turkey, Benedict XVI went into two schismatic cathedrals and met with three schismatic patriarchs, including the leader of the world’s schismatics: Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I.  Benedict XVI not only committed a forbidden act of communication in sacred things with the schismatic, but he may have committed his worst heresy in his joint declaration with him.
EP Bartholomew isn't the leader of any schismatics.  An icon of the Head of the Orthodox Church is here behind EP Bartholomew's throne.

Benedict XVI, Joint Declaration with Schismatic Patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 30, 2006: “This fraternal encounter which brings us together, Pope Benedict XVI of Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, is God's work, and in a certain sense his gift.  We give thanks to the Author of all that is good, who allows us once again, in prayer and in dialogue, to express the joy we feel as brothers and to renew our commitment to move towards full communion. This commitment comes from the Lord's will and from our responsibility as Pastors in the Church of Christ… As far as relations between the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople are concerned, we cannot fail to recall the solemn ecclesial act effacing the memory of the ancient anathemas which for centuries had a negative effect on our Churches.

What can be more heretical? Declaring in an "Apostolic Constitution" that the pope is infallible and has jurisdiction over the Church.

Pastor Aeternus put Pope Benedict XVI in office as "schismatic leader of the world's schismatics," as you put it.

Benedict XVI made this formally heretical declaration in a schismatic cathedral as part of a joint declaration during a divine liturgy with a notorious schismatic!  Thus, it’s official: Benedict XVI has declared in a public joint declaration that one can reject the Papacy, Papal Infallibility, Vatican I, etc. and be in the Church of Christ.

That is how one enters the Church of Christ from your heretical and schismatic beliefs.

He is without any doubt a public heretic.  Anyone who denies this, in light of these facts, is also a heretic.  Even the most dishonest and hardened defender of Antipope Benedict XVI will find it impossible to explain this one away.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#15), June 29, 1896 – Bishops Separated from Peter and his Successors Lose All Jurisdiction: “From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest.  They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from that Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone… No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.
and yet you rant on against your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus.

All of this heresy from Benedict XVI is also a total mockery of the saints and martyrs who suffered because they refused to become Eastern “Orthodox,” as was covered earlier in the section entitled: Catholics who were tortured and martyred because they refused to become Eastern Schismatics.
You mean like St. EP Photios or St. Peter the Aleut.

 
That is why Benedict XVI even encourages the Schismatic Patriarch to Resume His Ministry

Benedict XVI, Address, Nov. 12, 2005: “In this regard, I ask you, venerable

Brothers, to convey my cordial greeting to Patriarch Maxim, First Hierarch of the Orthodox Church of Bulgaria.  Please express to him my best wishes for his health and for the happy resumption of his ministry.
who are you to question your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus?

Benedict XVI, Speech to schismatic patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 29, 2006: “… St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. John Chrysostom… Their relics rest in basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, and a part of them were given to your Holiness as a sign of communion by the late Pope John Paul II for veneration in this very cathedral.
dogmas of heretics like Pastor Aeternus rejects communion with the Church.

You took your odds with Pastor Aeternus, and so Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis are the horses you bet on.
 
Benedict XVI’s incredible heresy on the schismatic “Archbishop” of Athens

Benedict XVI, Address, Oct. 30, 2006: “I am also pleased to address my thoughts and good wishes to His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece: I ask the Lord to sustain his farsightedness and prudence in carrying the demanding service that the Lord has entrusted to his care.  Through him I wish to greet with deep affection the holy synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece and the faithful whom it serves lovingly and with apostolic dedication.
The Church, professing her unity, commemorates the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece, as he teaches the Catholic dogmatic teachings.

And we don't depend on the Vatican newspaper ex cathedra telling us so.

I'm sure you do.

You might try original thought for a change.

the post-Vatican II sect is a huge manifestation of evil at the very least, a Counter Church of the Devil.  Well, the post-Vatican II sect loves Eastern Orthodoxy.  That should tell you something.  If E. Orthodoxy were true, the post-Vatican II antipopes would hate it.  The post-Vatican II antipopes, whose mission from the Devil is to embrace all the major breaches of God’s truth in history (the pagan religions, the Islamic religion, the heretical sects and the E. Orthodox schism) reaches out to and wants to unite with E. Orthodoxy (and Protestantism) because the Devil knows that E. Orthodoxy was one of those major movements of rejection of God’s truth by which he has ensnared millions of souls.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/refuting_eastern_orthodox.php
ah the hatred of the pre-Vatican II sect, truly a wonder to behold.  Ranting and raging because their built their hope on sand, demanding obedience to a pontiff who no longer exists and cannot be replaced.

Since Orthodoxy is true, and you say anti-popes would hate it then, and your claim that your popes before Pope John XXIII hated Orthodoxy, I guess that indicates you have been following anti-popes all along.

But then what does the hurling of the charge of schismatic by schismatics mean?  Not much.

you wrote
"Since Orthodoxy is true, and you say anti-popes would hate it then, and your claim that your popes before Pope John XXIII hated Orthodoxy, I guess that indicates you have been following anti-popes all along."

no as usual you don't know what you are talking about , if Orthodoxy is true then that would add some validity to the post vatican 2 popes, but since the post vatican 2 popes are without a doubt heretics, teach against the truth then that just proves once again how your eastern orthodoxy is false...do you get it now?


here's original thought: you don't know anything about the Catholic Church , concentrate on saving your soul first,  since YOU are a schismatic you will be going  to hell unless you convert to the true faith

you wrote  "who are you to question your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus?"
this has been answered already but I love repeating the truth

A heretic cannot be the pope

That a heretic cannot be a pope is rooted in the dogma that heretics are not members of the Catholic Church
It should be noted that the teaching from the saints and doctors of the Church, which is quoted above – that a pope who became a heretic would automatically cease to be pope – is rooted in the infallible dogma that a heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church.
Pope Eugene IV,
Council of Florence
, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church , not only pagans
but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for
the devil and his angels, unless they are join ed to the Church before the end of their lives...”
Pope Pius XII,
Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943:

For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church, De Romano Pontifice , II, 30: "
A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head , just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers
who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."

Answer: The authority a Catholic has to determine that heretics are not members of the Church is
Catholic dogma, which teaches us that those who depart from the Faith are considered alien to the
Church.
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:
“The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous
teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, AND
ALIEN TO THE CHURCH, WHOEVER WOULD RECEDE IN THE LEAST DEGREE
FROM ANY POINT OF DOCTRINE PROPOSED BY HER AUTHORITATIVE
MAGISTERIUM.” 7
Moreover, to assert that adhering to this Catholic dogma is to engage in private interpretation, as
this objection does, is to assert precisely what Pope St. Pius X condemned in his Syllabus of
Errors against the Modernists.
Pope St. Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #22:
“The dogmas which the Church professes as revealed are not truths fallen from
heaven, but they are a kind of interpretation of religious facts, which the human mind
by a laborious effort prepared for itself.”- Condemned 8
Pope Pius X, Lamentabile, The Errors of the Modernists, July 3, 1907, #54:
“The dogmas, the sacraments, the hierarchy, as far as pertains both to the notion and to
the reality, are nothing but interpretations and the evolution of Christian intelligence,
which have increased and perfected the little germ latent in the Gospel.”- Condemned 9
Answers to Objections
300
Notice, the idea that dogmas are interpretations is condemned. But that’s exactly what this
objection is asserting, whether those who make it will admit it or not. They are saying that to
apply the truth of a dogma is “private interpretation.” Further refuting this objection is the fact
that, in its Decree on the Sacrament of Order, the Council of Trent solemnly declared that the
dogmatic canons are for the use of all the faithful.
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Sess. 13, Chap. 4: “These are the matters which in general it
seemed well to the sacred Council to teach to the faithful of Christ regarding the
sacrament of order. It has, however, resolved to condemn the contrary in definite and
appropriate canons in the following manner, so that all, making use of the rule of
faith, with the assistance of Christ, may be able to recognize more easily the Catholic
truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors.” 10
The word “canon” (in Greek: kanon) means a reed; a straight rod or bar; a measuring stick;
something serving to determine, rule, or measure. The Council of Trent is infallibly declaring
that its canons are measuring rods for “all” so that they, making use of these rules of Faith, may
be able to recognize and defend the truth in the midst of darkness! This very important
statement blows away the claim of those who say that using dogmas to prove points is “private
interpretation.” Catholic dogma is the authority of all who come to these correct conclusions.
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 7), Aug. 15, 1832: “... nothing of the things appointed
ought to be diminished; nothing changed; nothing added; but they must be preserved
both as regards expression and meaning.” 11
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/6_noheretic_pope.pdf
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sedevacantist
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 10:12:18 PM »

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

So in 1054, a simple phrase "and the son", helps divide the church.

But today, EO patriarch Bartholomew can hand chalices to Lutherans, and participate in ecumenism embracing the Pope as a "brother", while the Pope claims "MUSLIMS worship the one God".

Unbelievable.

I'm sorry guys, I'm not trying to rile anybody up.  I respect lent. Please forgive me if I have.  But seriously, you just can't make this stuff up.

that's why the few are saved, most  don't care about the truth, the modern catholics and orthodox are in trouble...I have relatives who are orthodox, my family is novus order, I love them but if they don't change they will be lost....in charity I tell you this,

Matthew 7:13- “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.  How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life, and few there are that find it!”

 Luke 13:24- “Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.”

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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2013, 11:07:47 PM »

I've been a little groggy and fear that stooping to sede's level will place me at a disadvantage, where he can beat me with this vast experience with non-facts.  Sort of like his non-pope of his headless Ultramontanist confession that demands obedience from all to an empty chair which they cannot fill.
yes yes non facts like how the pope is a proven heretic
No, he's Orthodox.


but I guess I should still follow him according to you because by golly I won't know how to act without an active pope at the helm, you fail to understand that true catholics have the magisterium, the true teachings of  past popes who would have condemned he following :
you mean the heretical pope who created your "magisterium" and the "Pastor Aeternus" who taught this?:
Quote
On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.

2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood.

3. Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the Church which he once received.

4. For this reason it has always been necessary for every Church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body.

5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.
you stand condemned by him.

That is why Benedict XVI joins Paul VI and John Paul II in praising the overturning of the excommunications against the “Orthodox” – and therefore in denying Vatican I
you deny Vatican I by overturning the canonical election of your popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I and II, Benedict XVI and Francis, which taught "Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error...So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema."  Anathema: that means you.

That Vatican I was proven false isn't my problem.

Benedict XVI, Ecumenical Message to Schismatic Patriarch of Constantinople, Nov. 26, 2005: “This year we commemorate the 40th Anniversary of 7 December 1965, that day on which Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras, dissatisfied with what had occurred in 1054, decided together at Rome and Constantinople ‘to cancel from the Church’s memory the sentence of excommunication which had been pronounced.’
Constantinople isn't in schism, nor is there been a schismatic/heretical patriarch of it since the Vatican abolished its Latin patriarch of Constantinople.

In the year 1054, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, broke communion with the Catholic Church and the pope of Rome.  Cerularius rejected the supreme authority of the pope and closed Roman Rite churches in Constantinople.  Cerularius was excommunicated by Pope St. Leo IX, and the Great Schism of the East was formalized.
Pope Leo IX insisted on backing his Ultramontanist claims with the Donation of Constantine, and EP Michael just laughed at that forgery and Pope Leo's false claims based on it.  Cardinal Humbert attempted to excommunicate the Catholic Church, but the Patriarch excommunicated him, Umbert's boss already having left Catholic communion with the Orthodox bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Thus, what “occurred in 1054,” mentioned by Benedict XVI above, refers to the excommunications leveled by the Catholic Church against those who followed Michael Cerularius into schism and into a rejection of the Papacy.  Paul VI “lifted” these excommunications at the end of Vatican II, and John Paul II praised and commemorated the lifting of them many times.  Now we see that Benedict XVI follows John Paul II’s example and also commemorates the event.
they're your supreme pontiffs.  Deal with it.

The Catholic Church leveled excommunication against those who opposed EP Michael Cerularius, who upheld, like Pope Leo III and unlike Popes Benedict VIII and Leo IX, the unadulterated Creed of the Catholic Church.

All of this simply means that Paul VI, John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have attempted to overturn the Papacy as a dogma which must be believed under pain of heresy and excommunication.  But as we saw already, Vatican I declared many times and in many ways that those who reject the dogma of the Papacy are anathematized, cut off from the Faith.  Hence, to attempt to overturn the excommunications against those who still reject the Papacy is simply to boldly reject the teaching of Vatican I.  It’s formal heresy and schism signified in word and deed.
Alas for you, according to Vatican I, your supreme pontiff is judged by no one, so according to it you are anathematized and cut off from the Faith.

Benedict XVI prays ecumenical Vespers with schismatics and Protestants and says he loves the schismatic Orthodox Church

Benedict XVI praying ecumenical Vespers on Sept. 12, 2006.[32]  This is active participation in non-Catholic worship.  It is a manifestation of heresy by deed.

Benedict XVI, Address during ecumenical Vespers service, Sept. 12, 2006: “Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ!  We are gathered, Orthodox Christians, Catholics and Protestants – and together with us there are also some Jewish friends – to sing together the evening praise of God… This is an hour of gratitude for the fact that we can pray together in this way and, by turning to the Lord, at the same time grow in unity among ourselves… Among those gathered for this evening’s Vespers, I would like first to greet warmly the representatives of the Orthodox Church.  I have always considered it a special gift of God’s Providence that, as a professor at Bonn, I was able to come to know and to love the Orthodox Church, personally as it were, through two young Archimandrites, Stylianos Harkianakis and Damaskinos Papandreou, both of whom later became Metropolitans… Our koinonia [communion] is above all communion with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit; it is communion with the triune God, made possible by the Lord through his incarnation and the outpouring of the Spirit.  This communion with God creates in turn koinonia among people, as a participation in the faith of the Apostles…
what "Orthodox Church" you talking about?  The Church of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, of EP Bartholomew, Pope Theodore II, Patriarch John X, Patriarch Theophilos III, Patriarch Kyril, Catholicos Ilya II, Patriarch Irinej, Patriarch Daniel, Metropolitan Cyril, Archbishop Hieronymos II, Archbishop Chrysostomos II, Archbishop Anastasios, Metropolitan Sawa, Metropolitan Simeon  and Metropolitan Tikhon is in communion with Our Head, Our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

What can be more heretical than saying: “I love the schismatic Church”?  He then indicates that he, the schismatics, and the Protestants have a communion with God, communion with each other, and communion with the Faith of the Apostles.  This is all totally heretical.  Benedict XVI is a public heretic in communion with non-Catholics.
but according to Pastor Aeternus, he is your supreme pontiff (or was).

Benedict XVI’s worst heresy?  He prays with the leader of the world’s “Orthodox” schismatics and signs a Joint Declaration with him telling him he’s in the Church of Christ

 BBC News, Nov. 29, 2006 –“Benedict XVI has met Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I in Turkey, on the second day of a landmark visit to the largely Muslim country.  The Istanbul talks with the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians aimed to heal an old rift.  The two leaders began their meeting by holding a joint prayer service at the St George [Orthodox] Church in Istanbul.
It is his links to Pope Pius IX that kept him in heresy and schism, not his relationship with the EP.

During his 2006 trip to Turkey, Benedict XVI went into two schismatic cathedrals and met with three schismatic patriarchs, including the leader of the world’s schismatics: Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I.  Benedict XVI not only committed a forbidden act of communication in sacred things with the schismatic, but he may have committed his worst heresy in his joint declaration with him.
EP Bartholomew isn't the leader of any schismatics.  An icon of the Head of the Orthodox Church is here behind EP Bartholomew's throne.

Benedict XVI, Joint Declaration with Schismatic Patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 30, 2006: “This fraternal encounter which brings us together, Pope Benedict XVI of Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, is God's work, and in a certain sense his gift.  We give thanks to the Author of all that is good, who allows us once again, in prayer and in dialogue, to express the joy we feel as brothers and to renew our commitment to move towards full communion. This commitment comes from the Lord's will and from our responsibility as Pastors in the Church of Christ… As far as relations between the Church of Rome and the Church of Constantinople are concerned, we cannot fail to recall the solemn ecclesial act effacing the memory of the ancient anathemas which for centuries had a negative effect on our Churches.

What can be more heretical? Declaring in an "Apostolic Constitution" that the pope is infallible and has jurisdiction over the Church.

Pastor Aeternus put Pope Benedict XVI in office as "schismatic leader of the world's schismatics," as you put it.

Benedict XVI made this formally heretical declaration in a schismatic cathedral as part of a joint declaration during a divine liturgy with a notorious schismatic!  Thus, it’s official: Benedict XVI has declared in a public joint declaration that one can reject the Papacy, Papal Infallibility, Vatican I, etc. and be in the Church of Christ.

That is how one enters the Church of Christ from your heretical and schismatic beliefs.

He is without any doubt a public heretic.  Anyone who denies this, in light of these facts, is also a heretic.  Even the most dishonest and hardened defender of Antipope Benedict XVI will find it impossible to explain this one away.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (#15), June 29, 1896 – Bishops Separated from Peter and his Successors Lose All Jurisdiction: “From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest.  They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from that Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone… No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.
and yet you rant on against your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus.

All of this heresy from Benedict XVI is also a total mockery of the saints and martyrs who suffered because they refused to become Eastern “Orthodox,” as was covered earlier in the section entitled: Catholics who were tortured and martyred because they refused to become Eastern Schismatics.
You mean like St. EP Photios or St. Peter the Aleut.

 
That is why Benedict XVI even encourages the Schismatic Patriarch to Resume His Ministry

Benedict XVI, Address, Nov. 12, 2005: “In this regard, I ask you, venerable

Brothers, to convey my cordial greeting to Patriarch Maxim, First Hierarch of the Orthodox Church of Bulgaria.  Please express to him my best wishes for his health and for the happy resumption of his ministry.
who are you to question your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus?

Benedict XVI, Speech to schismatic patriarch Bartholomew, Nov. 29, 2006: “… St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. John Chrysostom… Their relics rest in basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, and a part of them were given to your Holiness as a sign of communion by the late Pope John Paul II for veneration in this very cathedral.
dogmas of heretics like Pastor Aeternus rejects communion with the Church.

You took your odds with Pastor Aeternus, and so Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis are the horses you bet on.
 
Benedict XVI’s incredible heresy on the schismatic “Archbishop” of Athens

Benedict XVI, Address, Oct. 30, 2006: “I am also pleased to address my thoughts and good wishes to His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece: I ask the Lord to sustain his farsightedness and prudence in carrying the demanding service that the Lord has entrusted to his care.  Through him I wish to greet with deep affection the holy synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece and the faithful whom it serves lovingly and with apostolic dedication.
The Church, professing her unity, commemorates the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece, as he teaches the Catholic dogmatic teachings.

And we don't depend on the Vatican newspaper ex cathedra telling us so.

I'm sure you do.

You might try original thought for a change.

the post-Vatican II sect is a huge manifestation of evil at the very least, a Counter Church of the Devil.  Well, the post-Vatican II sect loves Eastern Orthodoxy.  That should tell you something.  If E. Orthodoxy were true, the post-Vatican II antipopes would hate it.  The post-Vatican II antipopes, whose mission from the Devil is to embrace all the major breaches of God’s truth in history (the pagan religions, the Islamic religion, the heretical sects and the E. Orthodox schism) reaches out to and wants to unite with E. Orthodoxy (and Protestantism) because the Devil knows that E. Orthodoxy was one of those major movements of rejection of God’s truth by which he has ensnared millions of souls.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/refuting_eastern_orthodox.php
ah the hatred of the pre-Vatican II sect, truly a wonder to behold.  Ranting and raging because their built their hope on sand, demanding obedience to a pontiff who no longer exists and cannot be replaced.

Since Orthodoxy is true, and you say anti-popes would hate it then, and your claim that your popes before Pope John XXIII hated Orthodoxy, I guess that indicates you have been following anti-popes all along.

But then what does the hurling of the charge of schismatic by schismatics mean?  Not much.

you wrote
yes, I wrote.  If I was interested in what the Dimond brothers wrote, I'd go to their website.  I don't need you to cut and paste it here.

"Since Orthodoxy is true, and you say anti-popes would hate it then, and your claim that your popes before Pope John XXIII hated Orthodoxy, I guess that indicates you have been following anti-popes all along."

no as usual you don't know what you are talking about , if Orthodoxy is true then that would add some validity to the post vatican 2 popes, but since the post vatican 2 popes are without a doubt heretics, teach against the truth then that just proves once again how your eastern orthodoxy is false...do you get it now?
I got it a long time ago: Orthodoxy stands true, while you are running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

Behold your headless church!

hard for the triumphalist rooster to crow that way. So much for St. Peter's rooster.

here's original thought: you don't know anything about the Catholic Church , concentrate on saving your soul first,  since YOU are a schismatic you will be going  to hell unless you convert to the true faith
even here all you do is vomit what you have swallowed.  Not quite original.

I'm in communion with the Catholic Church, and confess her True Faith.  You're in schism with your headless communion.

you don't know much if anything beyond the Dimond brothers.

you wrote  "who are you to question your supreme pontiffs, put in place per Pastor Aeternus?"
this has been answered already but I love repeating the truth
you hide it very well. when are you going to reveal it?

Or will it remain hidden, like your Roman pontiff?


A heretic cannot be the pope
You have had several, including the one who issued Pastor Aeternus, which denies you the ability to judge the pope.

That a heretic cannot be a pope is rooted in the dogma that heretics are not members of the Catholic Church
It should be noted that the teaching from the saints and doctors of the Church, which is quoted above – that a pope who became a heretic would automatically cease to be pope – is rooted in the infallible dogma that a heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church.
Pope Eugene IV,
Council of Florence
deposed by the council of Basel.  What did Pope Felix say?

« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 11:32:03 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 08:35:59 PM »

you wrote


"If I was interested in what the Dimond brothers wrote, I'd go to their website."

that's none of my concern

you wrote

"You have had several, including the one who issued Pastor Aeternus, which denies you the ability to judge the pope."

I corrected what you should have written

You have had several, including the one who issued Pastor Aeternus, which denies you the ability to judge a true pope.

just wondering the picture of your leader is he Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople?

  who wrote the following

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the church also “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

I must say the one thing you are talented at is posting useless pictures with your posts, besides that you don't know what you are talking about.
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« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 10:05:18 PM »

you wrote


"If I was interested in what the Dimond brothers wrote, I'd go to their website."

that's none of my concern

you wrote

"You have had several, including the one who issued Pastor Aeternus, which denies you the ability to judge the pope."

I corrected what you should have written

You have had several, including the one who issued Pastor Aeternus, which denies you the ability to judge a true pope.
A true false pope is somewhat an oxymoron.

just wondering the picture of your leader is he Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople?
What picture?

You can say he's my leader, although he's not my leader in particular.

who wrote the following

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the church also “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

I must say the one thing you are talented at is posting useless pictures with your posts, besides that you don't know what you are talking about.
says the Headless Churchman.

Pastor Aeternus says the "true faith" requires communion with the supreme pontiff.  Where is he?

As for the quote, we have a number of threads on it, like here:
Btw, each Orthodox Church has official statements on this issue, statements on their official websites, etc.  Anyone find anything in support of abortion anywhere there?

And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.


The Sixth Ecumenical Council
Canon XCI. Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the…


Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.

Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XCI.

Whoever gives or receives medicine to produce abortion is a homicide.

See Canon XXI. of Ancyra, and Canon II. of St. Basil; to wit, "She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder. And we pay no attention to the subtile distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed. And by this not only is justice satisfied for the child that should have been born, but also for her who prepared for herself the snares, since the women very often die who make such experiments."

http://christianbookshelf.org/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xci_those_who_give.htm

The Amicus Curiae against Abortion Submitted to the Supreme Court of the United States
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


There were many names.

Here are just the names of the bishops:

The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese:
His Grace, Bishop Nicholas;

The Anthiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America:
His Eminence, Most Rev. Metropolitan Philip;
Rt. Rev. Antun, Auxiliary Bishop; V

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America:
Rt. Rev. Maximos, Bishop of Pittsburgh;
Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology and Christian Ethics, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology;

The Orthodox Church in America:
His Beatitude Theodosius, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada;
Rt. Rev. Peter, Bishop of New York and New Jersey;
Rt. Rev. Dimitri, Bishop of Dallas and the South;
Rt. Rev. Herman, Bishop of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania;
Rt. Rev. Gregory, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska;
Rt. Rev. Nathaniel, Bishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate;
Rt. Rev. Job, Bishop of Hartford and New England;
Rt. Rev. Tikhon, Bishop of San Francisco;
Rt. Rev. Mark, Acting Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest;

The Russian Orthodox Church in Exile:
His Eminence, Most Rev. Vitaly, Metropolitan of New York and Eastern America, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile;
Most Rev. Anthony, Archbishop of Los Angeles and Southern California;
Most Rev. Antony, Archbishop of San Francisco and Western America;
Most Rev. Laurus, Archbishop of Syracuse and Holy Trinity Monastery, Rector of Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary, and Abbot of Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery, Jordanville, New York;
Rt. Rev. Alypy, Bishop of Chicago, Detroit, and Midwest America;
Rt. Rev. Hilarion, Bishop of Manhattan;
Rt. Rev. Daniel, Bishop of Erie and Protector of the Old Rite;

The Serbian Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada:
His Grace, Bishop Christopher;

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America and Canada:
His Grace, Bishop Vsevolod.

I find it a bit hard to believe considering that the Patriarch signed a document on November 30 2006 that condemns abortion and upholds all life issues from conception to death.  

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


Amazing...if true, something I cannot agree with, but I'm from that other flock

Neither can any true Orthodox Catholic!

Orthodoc

Yes, I agree. I've even heard our priest mention where Jesus tells us that "there is no greater love than to give up one's life for another" in regards to complications during child birth.  

I
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19903.msg413823.html#msg413823
If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?
No, if anyone is wrongly reported, it is the responsibility of the reporter to correct the statement, not the one incorrectly quoted.

WRONG

His All Holiness goes trotting around the globe, claiming to speak for 300 million Orthodox.

Now two priests, one under the Phanar's omophorion, who represent many Orthodox on a central moral issue, ask for clarification on a quote and get silence. Qui tacit consentit.

So either His All Holiness can correct the record, or stop involving us when he is talking himself up to his pals.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 10:06:42 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2013, 06:04:03 PM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2013, 08:23:49 PM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 11:44:19 PM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God, I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic, you are outside the church so there is no hope, I am in the church so at least there's hope, I work out my salvation in fear and trembling, if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2013, 12:45:39 AM »

who wrote the following

Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul enters the body at conception and, generally speaking, respects human life and the continuation of the pregnancy,” Barthlomew said, the church also “respects the liberty and freedom of all human persons and all Christian couples . . . . We are not allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian couples,” he also said. “We cannot generalize. There are many reasons for a couple to go toward abortion.” (San Francisco Chronicle-7/20/90p.A22)

I must say the one thing you are talented at is posting useless pictures with your posts, besides that you don't know what you are talking about.

I am not sure if the Ecumenical Patriarch ever wrote for the San Francisco Chronicle with elipses, but I can give you a full quote from him:

"We are called to work together to promote respect for the rights of every human being, created in the image and likeness of God, and to foster economic, social and cultural development. Our theological and ethical traditions can offer a solid basis for a united approach in preaching and action. Above all, we wish to affirm that killing innocent people in God’s name is an offence against him and against human dignity. We must all commit ourselves to the renewed service of humanity and the defence of human life, every human life."  [Signed Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch]

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/november/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20061130_dichiarazione-comune_en.html



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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2013, 12:56:20 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God, I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic, you are outside the church so there is no hope, I am in the church so at least there's hope, I work out my salvation in fear and trembling, if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value

You sure are a miserable sob ("sophistrator of belligerence").  The good news is that you can change.  The Lord can enter into your life, you can repent, and you can join the Church of Christ, God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.  You can pm me when you are ready to be catechized.  I will put you in contact with the right priest.      
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 04:17:53 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2013, 06:19:12 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 06:19:51 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2013, 10:04:43 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God, I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic, you are outside the church so there is no hope, I am in the church so at least there's hope, I work out my salvation in fear and trembling, if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value

You sure are a miserable sob ("sophistrator of belligerence").  The good news is that you can change.  The Lord can enter into your life, you can repent, and you can join the Church of Christ, God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.  You can pm me when you are ready to be catechized.  I will put you in contact with the right priest.       
I follow the teachings of true popes like the following:
 Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all
those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or
heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the
everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they
are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this
ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do
the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and
other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal
rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given
away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he
has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

So since I believe this teaching to be true, I know obviously you don't but  can you not atleast recognize that I am forced to try and convert you to the true faith to save your soul, if I believe this teaching to be true wouldn't I be a hypocrite to say it's ok that you are not Catholic and that you will be saved?

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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2013, 10:08:30 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2013, 10:12:28 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God
according to your interpretation of Pastor Aeternus, it sure did: it elected a heretic pope.

No pope, no cardinals to make another one.  No more pope.

No pope, no pope to make licit the consecration of bishops.  No more bishops.

No bishops, no bishops to make more priests.  No more priests.

No more priests, no more sacraments except baptism and marriage (according to you).

Your last supreme pontiff died in 1958, your last cardinals died out without replacement in the 1970s, and I dare say your bishops of 1958 must have all died out by now (I don't have the time to waste to verify that last statement as I usually verify), your priests must be breathing their last.

I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic
Being Orthodox, we know that.

you are outside the church so there is no hope
Au contraire, we are inside, looking at you out in the cold.

I am in the church so at least there's hope

You  like mantras-are you sure you are not Hindu?

I work out my salvation in fear and trembling
Rather your perdition with ranting and raving.

if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value
On the contrary, as usual, Podkarpatska has posted the sanest post of the thread.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2013, 10:15:07 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God, I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic, you are outside the church so there is no hope, I am in the church so at least there's hope, I work out my salvation in fear and trembling, if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value

You sure are a miserable sob ("sophistrator of belligerence").  The good news is that you can change.  The Lord can enter into your life, you can repent, and you can join the Church of Christ, God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.  You can pm me when you are ready to be catechized.  I will put you in contact with the right priest.       
I follow the teachings of true popes like the following:
 Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all
those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or
heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the
everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they
are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this
ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do
the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and
other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal
rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given
away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he
has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

So since I believe this teaching to be true, I know obviously you don't but  can you not atleast recognize that I am forced to try and convert you to the true faith to save your soul, if I believe this teaching to be true wouldn't I be a hypocrite to say it's ok that you are not Catholic and that you will be saved?
Eugene was deposed by the council of Basel.  What did pope Felix V say?

You're not a hypocrite, just deluded:you have no font of unity that Eugene claims and Pastor Aeternus demands.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2013, 10:16:08 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
If you go to the heretical quote mine, all you can dig out is heresy.

We believe in the Holy Spirit....Who proceeds from the Father [period] Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified...[the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, AD 33, 381 and forever].
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 10:19:35 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2013, 10:18:42 AM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 10:19:32 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2013, 10:20:56 AM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
Not only that, St. John of Damascus, in the same work third from the bottom, explicitly says that the Spirit does NOT proceed from the Son.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2013, 10:21:23 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God
according to your interpretation of Pastor Aeternus, it sure did: it elected a heretic pope.

No pope, no cardinals to make another one.  No more pope.

No pope, no pope to make licit the consecration of bishops.  No more bishops.

No bishops, no bishops to make more priests.  No more priests.

No more priests, no more sacraments except baptism and marriage (according to you).

Your last supreme pontiff died in 1958, your last cardinals died out without replacement in the 1970s, and I dare say your bishops of 1958 must have all died out by now (I don't have the time to waste to verify that last statement as I usually verify), your priests must be breathing their last.

I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic
Being Orthodox, we know that.

you are outside the church so there is no hope
Au contraire, we are inside, looking at you out in the cold.

I am in the church so at least there's hope

You  like mantras-are you sure you are not Hindu?

I work out my salvation in fear and trembling
Rather your perdition with ranting and raving.

if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value
On the contrary, as usual, Podkarpatska has posted the sanest post of the thread.
on the contrary...you keep on writing about the catholic church's present situation as if you know what you are talking  about, ..you're not catholic and you don't know what you are talking about, to better understand the situation of whether we have options as catholics for priests today you must read this...but since you don't read anything from the Dimonds you will continue in your ignorance and remain outside the true church....there's no hope for you unless you wake up
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/jurisdiction.pdf
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2013, 10:32:15 AM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
Not only that, St. John of Damascus, in the same work third from the bottom, explicitly says that the Spirit does NOT proceed from the Son.

I didn't read through all of those quotes. Quote lists are tiresome to read. But indeed, St. John Damascene is not one you want to quote in a defense of the filioque.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 10:32:47 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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"Chi son?  Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo?  Vivo."
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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2013, 10:33:13 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


I have been silently following your posts since you started posting. However, I have to comment as your self assured arrogance is amazing. How can you be saved if, by your own definitions, a valid episcopacy no longer exists within your church? You can have no priesthood, you can have no sacraments, you can have no confession and you can receive no absolution of your sins. You do have a lot of angry, empty words bereft of any humility, love or compassion. You have no Apostolic root as you affirm it has been severed since 1958.

You profess that your church has abandoned God but that can not be by the very Papal declarations you love to throw at us as if they were the very word of God Himself.

Like the priestess Old Believers of Old Russia you have nothing left but empty forms and memories of the past. Go back to the Dimonds for you have no hope of persuading anyone here to follow you.
you don't know what you are talking about,  true catholics do have options for the sacraments, there are valid priests, although not many, my church hasn't abandoned God, I'm simply telling people what should be obvious to anyone of good will, which you aren't, that the "catholic" church of today is not catholic, you are outside the church so there is no hope, I am in the church so at least there's hope, I work out my salvation in fear and trembling, if I don't persuade anyone here so be it, I sleep well at night...go back to silently following as you add nothing of value

You sure are a miserable sob ("sophistrator of belligerence").  The good news is that you can change.  The Lord can enter into your life, you can repent, and you can join the Church of Christ, God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.  You can pm me when you are ready to be catechized.  I will put you in contact with the right priest.       
I follow the teachings of true popes like the following:
 Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all
those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or
heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the
everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they
are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this
ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do
the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and
other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal
rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given
away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he
has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

So since I believe this teaching to be true, I know obviously you don't but  can you not atleast recognize that I am forced to try and convert you to the true faith to save your soul, if I believe this teaching to be true wouldn't I be a hypocrite to say it's ok that you are not Catholic and that you will be saved?
Eugene was deposed by the council of Basel.  What did pope Felix V say?

You're not a hypocrite, just deluded:you have no font of unity that Eugene claims and Pastor Aeternus demands.
no you are lost,,why do you keep on bringing up what pope Felix, he said a lot of things...he was also an anti pope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope_Felix_V
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ialmisry
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« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2013, 11:01:27 AM »

no you are lost,,why do you keep on bringing up what pope Felix, he said a lot of things...he was also an anti pope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope_Felix_V
After 1054, they're all "anti-popes."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2013, 11:05:37 AM »

on the contrary...you keep on writing about the catholic church's present situation as if you know what you are talking  about, ..you're not catholic and you don't know what you are talking about
Since you don't have a head, you can't be talking out of your mouth, so it must be some other oriface.

to better understand the situation of whether we have options as catholics for priests today you must read this...but since you don't read anything from the Dimonds you will continue in your ignorance
I've read the Dimonds' ignorance.

and remain outside the true churchLa Petite Église
fixed that for you.

....there's no hope for you unless you wake up
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/jurisdiction.pdf
I'm going to get my second cup of coffee right now.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2013, 11:15:17 PM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
If you go to the heretical quote mine, all you can dig out is heresy.

We believe in the Holy Spirit....Who proceeds from the Father [period] Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified...[the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, AD 33, 381 and forever].

I don't have a dog in this fight... but seriously, as a complete non-practicing (or former) EO Christian, all I can say is that sedevacantist totally wins the filioque argument.

Wow, the quotes from some of the earliest Christians, verify the filioque issue, and sorry to say it leans on the RC side....

Some of the earliest Christians obviously said "and the son".  There are no arguments there.  End of story.... but...

However, as we all know, the filioque was not really the issue... was it?   That's the issue "they" tell us, but I promise it was a lot more about supremacy, jurisdiction, and money.... all about power.   Filioque, just makes it "sound good".

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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2013, 11:18:04 PM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
Not only that, St. John of Damascus, in the same work third from the bottom, explicitly says that the Spirit does NOT proceed from the Son.

I didn't read through all of those quotes. Quote lists are tiresome to read. But indeed, St. John Damascene is not one you want to quote in a defense of the filioque.

^^^ This is what happens when an argument is presented that is too hard for people to accept.  It's cast off, boring.

Look he quoted some of the earliest Christians, who clearly said "and the son".

That doesn't mean the bishops really cared about the filioque though... Of course, that's what we were told... but, as I've said - "They have this huge issue over "and the son", yet now hand chalices to Lutherans".

It's about power, control, jurisdiction, and money.
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2013, 11:25:48 PM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2013, 12:34:01 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew




It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

*REMEMBER* while Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDS a chalice to the Lutherans, he ATTACKS Orthodox monks http://www.esphigmenou.com/Sound/Esphigmenou%20being%20attacked%20Video.swf

That is not an agenda of Orthodoxy, it's an agenda of power & money.
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2013, 12:45:19 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2013, 12:51:12 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.



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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2013, 12:55:29 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2013, 01:06:17 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you
 You are put on post moderation for multiple violations of the No Proselytism Rule, to wit: "Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is not allowed... If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message." If you disagree with this action, please fell free to PM me. Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2013, 01:08:11 AM »

Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.

The opinion espoused by Archbishop Gregory matters to you ... or doesn't matter to me.

His All Holiness gave a chalice as a gift to a Lutheran Priest - 5 centuries ago, churches were being destroyed and looted of their chalices and other clerical equipment by a fledgling Protestant movement.

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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2013, 01:08:35 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.
The agenda.

They aren't at the altar: you can see it behind them.  The Patriarch isn't vested. So no, they aren't communing.

It looks like a Lutheran chalice, not an Orthodox one.  A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more.
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« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2013, 01:12:10 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted,

Except for yours with no supreme pontiff.

the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order,

No supreme pontiff, no temptation to join the new world order and 1 world religion.

you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

yeshuaisiam needs no other religion other than the one he has created for himself.
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« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2013, 01:13:52 AM »



Muslims who worship “the one God”.....

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."



Ecumenism is about "brotherhood" and "bringing people to Orthodoxy" or "representing Orthodoxy" Huh

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles: "If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."




Canon XXXIII of Laodicia - "One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."





There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2013, 01:19:29 AM »

Several on the quote list (Tertullian, Didymus, Origen etc.) were heretics or at least not consistently orthodox and many more quotes don't even mention the eternal procession but only the procession ad extram.
Not only that, St. John of Damascus, in the same work third from the bottom, explicitly says that the Spirit does NOT proceed from the Son.

I didn't read through all of those quotes. Quote lists are tiresome to read. But indeed, St. John Damascene is not one you want to quote in a defense of the filioque.

^^^ This is what happens when an argument is presented that is too hard for people to accept.  It's cast off, boring.

Look he quoted some of the earliest Christians, who clearly said "and the son".
Still fighting the concept of context I see.  And the existence of faulty translation.

That doesn't mean the bishops really cared about the filioque though... Of course, that's what we were told... but, as I've said - "They have this huge issue over "and the son", yet now hand chalices to Lutherans".

It's about power, control, jurisdiction, and money.
Those Lutherans say "and the son": EP Jeremias II broke off dialogue with their theologians because they insisted on saying it.
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2013, 01:24:49 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
If you go to the heretical quote mine, all you can dig out is heresy.

We believe in the Holy Spirit....Who proceeds from the Father [period] Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified...[the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, AD 33, 381 and forever].

I don't have a dog in this fight... but seriously, as a complete non-practicing (or former) EO Christian, all I can say is that sedevacantist totally wins the filioque argument.

Wow, the quotes from some of the earliest Christians, verify the filioque issue, and sorry to say it leans on the RC side....

Some of the earliest Christians obviously said "and the son".  There are no arguments there.  End of story.... but...

However, as we all know, the filioque was not really the issue... was it?   That's the issue "they" tell us, but I promise it was a lot more about supremacy, jurisdiction, and money.... all about power.   Filioque, just makes it "sound good".
You can't even figure out that Anabaptist isnt' an early Christianity, and confuse late second millenium sectarianism for first century Christianity.

I'd go into the problem with the "proof" of these "proof texts," but I'm afraid you would have to be weaned off the milk before you can tolerate meat.

Jesusiamism: Other late heresies kind of jumbled together.
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2013, 01:24:59 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

I put most everything bishops have done since 300 A.D. on the table.

If they were willing to betray the canon, eucharist, and Orthodoxy (or Catholocism) I believe they'd sell out anything.

I started reading writings of the early Christians, such as Turtullian, Origen, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, etc.   I found out the church I belonged to, was practicing things that were not original at all (not being hostile just my research experience).

So I practice the Sabbath day, Messianic Jew understanding of linguistics & Jewish feasts, but my wife grew up as an Anabaptist Mennonite... Our home life revolves around that teaching (which adheres to EARLY Christian ways of living).   (Contentedness, non-costly array, modesty, fleeing from evil influences such as much music & TV).

Some people point and say "we made it up".  Tis true I guess, but its the closest thing I can find that adheres to the scriptures (as best as we can), and practices the same feasts as the earliest Christians.  I believe the "church" has been sold out a long time ago, morphed in pagan ideas, and crushed many aspects of early Christianity.  

*I do believe that most Eastern Orthodox Christians are sincere in their faith, love God, and want to do what is right.  In this world of atheism and temptation everywhere, I still support the as brothers and sisters in Christ.  I do not agree with every aspect of the EO faith, but I do believe that many elements of the Early Christians still exist in the faith.  Also, I believe the depth & richness of their teachings of faith is absolutely awesome.... But I also believe the church (on top) is hijacked, and they just can't/won't/could not stand, to admit it.
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:05 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2013, 01:27:03 AM »

yeshuaisiam, where is the evidence that an Ecumenical Patriarch (whether the incumbent one or from the time of Martin Luther) or any Orthodox Bishop has "handed chalices to the Lutherans?"

You have the power, control, jurisdiction and money where you live; why judge someone else?

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew


Here's the link to the story where those images came from:

http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_world_orthodoxy_bartholomew.shtml

I should believe Archbishop Gregory of Colorado because....

It *was* an issue of supremacy, I do not believe they really cared about the filioque.  If you have patriarchs today who would hand a Lutheran a chalice, then I doubt "Orthodoxy" really matters to them.  Just as in yesteryear, the filioque, probably didn't matter much, but they didn't want the Pope of Rome ruling.

Just like today, they want "ecumenism" a move towards a "one world church".   Consider if the filioque of yesteryear "really" could split a church, then why on Earth would a Patriarch give a chalice to a Lutheran.

In my opinion and countless hours of research, the dogma really doesn't matter - the power and $ do.   The issues of "god reasons", are to hand down to the flock for the reason of schisms / unions.

Archbishop Gregory is in communion with himself, unless he's in communion with you.  Still, a two man communion doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


Ummmm...

Brother...

I don't care if Charlton Heston took the photos....

The photo does not lie.   The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew HANDED a CHALICE to a LUTHERAN.    I DO NOT see how the person who hosts the photo matters.
The agenda.

They aren't at the altar: you can see it behind them.  The Patriarch isn't vested. So no, they aren't communing.

It looks like a Lutheran chalice, not an Orthodox one.  A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more.

A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more...  Tongue

Okiedokie.
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« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2013, 01:29:10 AM »

I would rather be in the true church with currently no leader than your schismatic church with a leader, I am saved, you are not, you reject John 21.


Who do you think the leader of the Orthodox Church is?

Muslims don't worship the same God as Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics.

But Roman Catholics worship the filioque God  police


John 15:26

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
so here we see Jesus is sending the holy Ghost from the Father , therefore The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND Son

Send =/= proceed.


Contrary to claims by the Orthodox Churches the Catholic Church did not invent the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The teaching is not only implied by Scripture but it was explicitly taught by the Early Fathers as well.

Tertullian

"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).

Maximus the Confessor

"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"[There is] one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources" (The Trinity 2:29 [A.D. 357]).

Didymus the Blind

"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Basil the Great

"[T]he goodness of [the divine] nature, the holiness of [that] nature, and the royal dignity reach from the Father through the only-begotten [Son] to the Holy Spirit. Since we confess the persons in this manner, there is no infringing upon the holy dogma of the monarchy" (The Holy Spirit 18:47 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son" (The Holy Spirit 1:2:120 [A.D. 381]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly" (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed

"[W]e venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness. . . . The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding" (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

"Why, then, should we not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from the Son, when he is the Spirit also of the Son? For if the Holy Spirit did not proceed from him, when he showed himself to his disciples after his resurrection he would not have breathed upon them, saying, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit’ [John 20:22]. For what else did he signify by that breathing upon them except that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from him" (Homilies on John 99:8 [A.D. 416]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it" (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Council of Toledo

. . . The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father nor the Son, but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son" (Council of Toledo [A.D. 447]).

Fulgence of Ruspe

"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit who is Spirit of the Father and of the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son" (The Rule of Faith 54 [A.D. 524]).

John Damascene

"And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of his divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to himself, but different from that of generation" (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 12 [A.D. 712]).

"I say that God is always Father since he has always his Word [the Son] coming from himself and, through his Word, the Spirit issuing from him" (Dialogue Against the Manicheans 5 [A.D. 728]).

Council of Nicaea II

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, proceeding from the Father through the Son" (Profession of Faith [A.D. 787]).
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_filioque_clause.htm
If you go to the heretical quote mine, all you can dig out is heresy.

We believe in the Holy Spirit....Who proceeds from the Father [period] Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified...[the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, AD 33, 381 and forever].

I don't have a dog in this fight... but seriously, as a complete non-practicing (or former) EO Christian, all I can say is that sedevacantist totally wins the filioque argument.

Wow, the quotes from some of the earliest Christians, verify the filioque issue, and sorry to say it leans on the RC side....

Some of the earliest Christians obviously said "and the son".  There are no arguments there.  End of story.... but...

However, as we all know, the filioque was not really the issue... was it?   That's the issue "they" tell us, but I promise it was a lot more about supremacy, jurisdiction, and money.... all about power.   Filioque, just makes it "sound good".
You can't even figure out that Anabaptist isnt' an early Christianity, and confuse late second millenium sectarianism for first century Christianity.

I'd go into the problem with the "proof" of these "proof texts," but I'm afraid you would have to be weaned off the milk before you can tolerate meat.

Jesusiamism: Other late heresies kind of jumbled together.

The Anabaptists aren't early Christians....  Huh Huh

I said their FAMILY LIFESTYLE adheres to much of the traditions of early Christians.  Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
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« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2013, 01:32:57 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
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« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2013, 01:37:42 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

I put most everything bishops have done since 300 A.D. on the table.
Yes, that Great Apostasy of Constantine nonsense you Protestants are so fond of.

If they were willing to betray the canon, eucharist, and Orthodoxy (or Catholocism) I believe they'd sell out anything.
You Protestants have sold out all of the above.

I started reading writings of the early Christians, such as Turtullian, Origen, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, etc.   I found out the church I belonged to, was practicing things that were not original at all (not being hostile just my research experience).
It seems that your original research has managed to repeat a number of unoriginal heresies, and a couple of new ones, or rather modern ones.

You cut yourself off from the context of the Church, putting yourself in a vacuum of a self made tradition.

So I practice the Sabbath day, Messianic Jew understanding of linguistics & Jewish feasts, but my wife grew up as an Anabaptist Mennonite... Our home life revolves around that teaching (which adheres to EARLY Christian ways of living).   (Contentedness, non-costly array, modesty, fleeing from evil influences such as much music & TV).
Your Judaizing isn't an original heresy.  I give you that-it is a first century early heresy.

You did get circumcized, no?

Some people point and say "we made it up".  Tis true I guess
Remove all doubt.  Tis true no doubt.

but its the closest thing I can find that adheres to the scriptures (as best as we can)


and practices the same feasts as the earliest Christians.
Oh? Such as?

I believe the "church" has been sold out a long time ago, morphed in pagan ideas, and crushed many aspects of early Christianity.
Yes, and you are wrong in those beliefs.

"WE believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

*I do believe that most Eastern Orthodox Christians are sincere in their faith, love God, and want to do what is right.  In this world of atheism and temptation everywhere, I still support the as brothers and sisters in Christ.  I do not agree with every aspect of the EO faith, but I do believe that many elements of the Early Christians still exist in the faith.  Also, I believe the depth & richness of their teachings of faith is absolutely awesome.... But I also believe the church (on top) is hijacked, and they just can't/won't/could not stand, to admit it.
well, I guess we should put you in charge, no?  Sort of like we should put New York cab drivers in charge of the world, as they are the only ones who know how to run it. Just ask them.
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« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2013, 01:38:34 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.
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« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2013, 01:40:32 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted,

Except for yours with no supreme pontiff.

the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order,

No supreme pontiff, no temptation to join the new world order and 1 world religion.

you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

yeshuaisiam needs no other religion other than the one he has created for himself.

Yeah but your leaders violate the very foundational rules of the church....

So in this context one could say that *YOU* need no other religion, than what some other man made up for you, that is not historical, but merely "mutated" through the years.  Those not in the "club agenda" have gotten the boot through many points of history.  You do know at one time there was no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.   That was SIMPLY made up just for you - or morphed for you.   I guess I just got tired of people making stuff up for me... So I researched stuff, and decided to take a stand.

But anyway, I'm not the one getting anointed by a RC, but an EO bishop is in the photos above.
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« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:05 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.

I guess not, because you hold the authority on this matter right?
Because I'm not "in the club", means I don't "understand the club".

The problem is, "I've been in the club, I understand the club".   As far as "Eastern Orthodox" is concerned, in adherence to "tradition" which the church has come to today, HOTCA is pretty accurate.   Of course, many people here would label them as schismatics.... Also old orthodox as schismatics.... While their own Patriarch does what?   Prays with the Pope that says "Muslims worship the one God".

I mean you just can't make this stuff up.
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« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:38 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...

Since Archbishop Gregory is in communion by himself, does he Judaize?

From the HOTCA members on this board, none of them admit to Judaizing.

If you were to join HOTCA as an active Judaizer, would they welcome you with open arms?
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« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2013, 01:45:02 AM »

The Anabaptists aren't early Christians....  Huh Huh
that that fact shocks you is telling.

I said their FAMILY LIFESTYLE adheres to much of the traditions of early Christians.
You mean like Jimmy Swaggert?

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK
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« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2013, 01:48:22 AM »

I'm sorry, I just gotta take a logic side step here....

Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew:
1) Hands Chalice to a Lutheran (photos posted)
2) Attacks Orthodox Monastery on Athos (link given)
3) Gets a 20 monastery petition from Athos against ecumenism
http://www.esphigmenou.com/text%20documents/Mt.%20Athos%20Open%20letters%20of%20Protest%20to%20Patriarch%20Batholomew%20by%2020%20Monasteries.htm

But the response is because Orthodox Bishop Gregory hosts the photo.   Huh   Huh

I mean seriously.
yeshuasism you seem to have some good judgement, the problem with all of today's religions is that they have all been corrupted, the plan is this monster of ecumenism will eventually lead to a 1 world religion, it's part of the diabolical new world order, you say you don't have a dog in this fight, but I believe your soul is at stake so you better find that dog....the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

I put most everything bishops have done since 300 A.D. on the table.
Yes, that Great Apostasy of Constantine nonsense you Protestants are so fond of.

If they were willing to betray the canon, eucharist, and Orthodoxy (or Catholocism) I believe they'd sell out anything.
You Protestants have sold out all of the above.

I started reading writings of the early Christians, such as Turtullian, Origen, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, etc.   I found out the church I belonged to, was practicing things that were not original at all (not being hostile just my research experience).
It seems that your original research has managed to repeat a number of unoriginal heresies, and a couple of new ones, or rather modern ones.

You cut yourself off from the context of the Church, putting yourself in a vacuum of a self made tradition.

So I practice the Sabbath day, Messianic Jew understanding of linguistics & Jewish feasts, but my wife grew up as an Anabaptist Mennonite... Our home life revolves around that teaching (which adheres to EARLY Christian ways of living).   (Contentedness, non-costly array, modesty, fleeing from evil influences such as much music & TV).
Your Judaizing isn't an original heresy.  I give you that-it is a first century early heresy.

You did get circumcized, no?

Some people point and say "we made it up".  Tis true I guess
Remove all doubt.  Tis true no doubt.

but its the closest thing I can find that adheres to the scriptures (as best as we can)


and practices the same feasts as the earliest Christians.
Oh? Such as?

I believe the "church" has been sold out a long time ago, morphed in pagan ideas, and crushed many aspects of early Christianity.
Yes, and you are wrong in those beliefs.

"WE believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

*I do believe that most Eastern Orthodox Christians are sincere in their faith, love God, and want to do what is right.  In this world of atheism and temptation everywhere, I still support the as brothers and sisters in Christ.  I do not agree with every aspect of the EO faith, but I do believe that many elements of the Early Christians still exist in the faith.  Also, I believe the depth & richness of their teachings of faith is absolutely awesome.... But I also believe the church (on top) is hijacked, and they just can't/won't/could not stand, to admit it.
well, I guess we should put you in charge, no?  Sort of like we should put New York cab drivers in charge of the world, as they are the only ones who know how to run it. Just ask them.

This isn't about me.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.

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« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2013, 01:54:55 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.

I guess not, because you hold the authority on this matter right?
No, God's Church does. Since you will not call her Mother, you cannot call Him Father.

Here's something for your "original research" pre-300:
Quote
And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate itself to be one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by a falsehood: let no one corrupt the truth of the faith by perfidious prevarication. The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. The Church also is one, which is spread abroad far and wide into a multitude by an increase of fruitfulness. As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source. Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree—when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated.
The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathers not with me scatters. Matthew 12:30 He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathers elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, And these three are one. 1 John 5:7 And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm

Because I'm not "in the club", means I don't "understand the club".
No, your "jumbled together" musings demonstrate you don't understand.  And trusting your own (mis)understanding, you have left "the club."

The problem is, "I've been in the club, I understand the club".
Yeah, and I was Protestant. Stalemate I guess.

As far as "Eastern Orthodox" is concerned, in adherence to "tradition" which the church has come to today, HOTCA is pretty accurate.
As you have amply demonstrated, accuracy isn't your strong point.

Of course, many people here would label them as schismatics.... Also old orthodox as schismatics.... While their own Patriarch does what?   Prays with the Pope that says "Muslims worship the one God".

I mean you just can't make this stuff up.
LOL. We all have to bow to your expertise on making stuff up.
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« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2013, 01:56:31 AM »

The Anabaptists aren't early Christians....  Huh Huh
that that fact shocks you is telling.

I said their FAMILY LIFESTYLE adheres to much of the traditions of early Christians.
You mean like Jimmy Swaggert?

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK


It wasn't a SHOCK face, it was like "why would you even say that".

Jimmy Swaggart - what on Earth are you even talking about?

The Russian pilgrims are great, though they are wearing icons which are not part of early Christian tradition...  But you know what - you are not fooling anybody.  MOST Eastern Orthodox Christians do NOT look like that.  We all know this.  There is ALSO way more to family life than looks.
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« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2013, 02:02:17 AM »

There are no excuses.  If I was still a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I would be RUNNING to HOTCA.  My opinion, as far as Eastern Orthodoxy goes, they are trying real hard...

Even if Archbishop Gregory has not so nice things to say about it?

I have first hand *in person* experience with ecumenism and the WCC...  

How many times I've heard that statement.   Roll Eyes  Shocked  Roll Eyes

I don't care what Archbishop Gregory has to say about HOTCA.   Huh

My opinion is that HOTCA (as far as Eastern Orthodox tradition goes) is adhering to canon... keeping tradition...
Your opinion, self identified as outside the Church, doesn't count.

I guess not, because you hold the authority on this matter right?
No, God's Church does. Since you will not call her Mother, you cannot call Him Father.

Here's something for your "original research" pre-300:
Quote
And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate itself to be one and undivided. Let no one deceive the brotherhood by a falsehood: let no one corrupt the truth of the faith by perfidious prevarication. The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole. The Church also is one, which is spread abroad far and wide into a multitude by an increase of fruitfulness. As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source. Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree—when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated.
The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathers not with me scatters. Matthew 12:30 He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathers elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, I and the Father are one; John 10:30 and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, And these three are one. 1 John 5:7 And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm

Because I'm not "in the club", means I don't "understand the club".
No, your "jumbled together" musings demonstrate you don't understand.  And trusting your own (mis)understanding, you have left "the club."

The problem is, "I've been in the club, I understand the club".
Yeah, and I was Protestant. Stalemate I guess.

As far as "Eastern Orthodox" is concerned, in adherence to "tradition" which the church has come to today, HOTCA is pretty accurate.
As you have amply demonstrated, accuracy isn't your strong point.

Of course, many people here would label them as schismatics.... Also old orthodox as schismatics.... While their own Patriarch does what?   Prays with the Pope that says "Muslims worship the one God".

I mean you just can't make this stuff up.
LOL. We all have to bow to your expertise on making stuff up.

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.

*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
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« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2013, 02:04:28 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.
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« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2013, 02:06:10 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2013, 02:07:17 AM »


A gift of a silver cup, and nothing more...  Tongue

Okiedokie.
Yes. Being in communion with yourself, I can see how that can be confusing.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2013, 02:11:02 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

There are a lot of other photos there.

EDIT, he's a Metropolitan.
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« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2013, 02:22:52 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.   

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.
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« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2013, 02:23:27 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.

They know this stuff.  They don't care.  Just like calling the chalice "a gift of a silver cup - nothing more".   Their poop can't possibly stink.... That's seriously the attitude.

Several here attack from several fronts
1) You are not Orthodox so you don't count / you don't know
2) How dare you (or IS OUTRAGE!   LOL)
3) You are lying
4) Your source is a photo hosted by ________ so since he hosts it, it's invalid
5) Nitpick specific photos (such as uncommon Russian pilgrims) that fit agendas for quick points.  (one time it was an argument about head coverings for females, and somebody posted a playboy photo cover of a lady with something over her head to make a point.)
6) Attack you, instead of addressing the point at hand
7) Dodge the specifics, address the general, miss the point, and will not hit the nail on the head
Cool Speak in "volumes of who has done it" rather than referencing the text of Early Christians (100+ years before Nicea)
9) Troll you for other arguments rather than addressing the arguments you make a valid point on, or subject matter of the thread.  
10) Contort scriptures, dropping rationale & context, in order to "prove you wrong".  

One time somebody even said "You smell bad".    Cheesy
But they were right.  I cleaned out the goat stalls that day... It was weird.

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« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2013, 02:26:15 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.

I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.
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« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2013, 02:33:06 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:34:22 AM by JamesR » Logged

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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2013, 02:35:19 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.

I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.
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« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2013, 02:37:01 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.

James, you're forgetting a very important reason why such a council will be dead in the water: the yiayia/babushka factor.
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« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2013, 02:58:40 AM »

yeshuaisiam needs no other religion other than the one he has created for himself.

Yeah but your leaders violate the very foundational rules of the church....
So did St. Peter, and yet his apostleship stood.

But Sol is in error in part: part of your religion has been created for you by the prophets of Protestantism, who rantings jumbled together you prefer to try to pass off as the Gospel Truth, rather than passing on the Holy Tradition of the Apostles.

So in this context one could say that *YOU* need no other religion, than what some other man made up for you
yes, that would be the Son of Man.

that is not historical
your lack of historical sense disqualifies you from opining in the matter.

but merely "mutated" through the years.

It's called growth.  Like a baby growing up into a man.

Do drink your milk.

Those not in the "club agenda" have gotten the boot through many points of history.

Ah, yes.  Judas, Nicolas the proselyte of Antioch (Acts 6:5; Rev. 2:6,16), Marcion, Montanus, Valentinus, Origen, Arius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Pelagius, Eutychus, Sergius, Leo....the apostolic succession of heretics and heresy.

Btw, many of the above held their boot on the Church through many points of history.  But that Son of Man Who made up our religion for us promised that the Gates of Hell would never prevail over it, and so the Church emerged triumphant every time, as she shall until the end of time.

You do know at one time there was no prayer rope
Yes, and?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin

iconostasis
Yes, and?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bema

icons
we hashed through your ignorance on this matter on another thread IIRC.

If I recall, the fact that the earliest Christian remains we have, dating well before your magic 300 date, are full of icons, was mentioned.  That you chose to ignore it is your problem, not ours.

"Easter" (pagan morphed)
Of all the blantly regurgitated Protestant trash talk you post, this has to be tops-or the bottom, as it were.  There is PLENTY of historical evidence of the celebration of ALL Christians of Pascha before your magical date of 300.

"Christmas" (pagan morphed)
actually, the opposite is true.  We have discussed this before, IIRC, where I gave an article demonstrating this deluded modern fallacy is ahistorical:
CALCULATING CHRISTMAS
Quote
Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.
Now you are just wallowing in ignorance, as the existence of altars, the sacrifice of the Eucharist, liturgical objects etc are well attested from the NT to our own day.

That was SIMPLY made up just for you - or morphed for you.
Yes, by Christ and the Holy Spirit living in His Body, the Church.

I guess I just got tired of people making stuff up for me...

evidently not, as evidence by the Protestantism you have guzzled down and vomited forth.

So I researched stuff
how long did it take you to find another gospel?

and decided to take a stand.
and you fell.

But anyway, I'm not the one getting anointed by a RC, but an EO bishop is in the photos above.
who anoints you?
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« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2013, 03:01:53 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.

James, you're forgetting a very important reason why such a council will be dead in the water: the yiayia/babushka factor.

Yiayia: 45 minute Liturgy?!?!!! Outrage! *slaps EP with cane*
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« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2013, 03:03:02 AM »

This isn't about me.
Your religion is.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".
I'd hash this out with you, but it is none of your business.

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.
I see you feel the same way about knowledge.
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« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2013, 03:06:32 AM »

It wasn't a SHOCK face, it was like "why would you even say that".
Because it's true.
Jimmy Swaggart - what on Earth are you even talking about?
your Anabaptist brother.

The Russian pilgrims are great, though they are wearing icons which are not part of early Christian tradition...
your ignorance of early Christian tradition and history is showing.

But you know what - you are not fooling anybody.  MOST Eastern Orthodox Christians do NOT look like that.  We all know this.  There is ALSO way more to family life than looks.
Indeed. Elaborate on that thought.
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« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2013, 03:11:12 AM »

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh
Your sources have been cross checked and found wanting, and your interpretation carries even less weight.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.
put the projector away.
*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
Before Your Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Your Holy Resurrection we glorify.

We have been doing that ever since He rose on the third day.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 03:11:36 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2013, 03:12:54 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.
You sure?  I can't really tell from the angle, but he looks like a Melkite bishop whose name escapes me.

If so, he should give account.  The EP isn't the only one he is accountable to.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 03:13:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2013, 03:15:38 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.

I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.
So you are saying that HOTCA is the truest expression of a false tradition.

You do need some sleep.

And it is later than you think.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2013, 03:17:14 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.
The Patriarch of Moscow is going to handle that matter a lot sooner than 50 years.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2013, 03:18:44 AM »

Probably inappropriate for Lent and going to offend a lot of people, but, that's never stopped me before from making an offensive post and it won't stop me now. How long until you guys think that the Ecumenical Patriarch calls together a robber council composed of ecumenist Bishops and heirarchs from the Church under the guise of an "Ecumenical Council" and World Orthodoxy experiences its own equivelant of Vatican II with 45 minute Liturgies, open Eucharist, excessive Protestant concessions and disregard for proper theology? I give it about 50 years until that happens; in which case, most of us will go running to "Traditional" Orthodoxy, while the Greeks will fight to defend their ecumenist heirarchs until their very last breath.

James, you're forgetting a very important reason why such a council will be dead in the water: the yiayia/babushka factor.
Yes, I've seen a number of editorials in the Greek press telling the EP that obedience doesn't extend to submission to the Vatican.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2013, 03:25:38 AM »

They know this stuff.  They don't care.  Just like calling the chalice "a gift of a silver cup - nothing more".   Their poop can't possibly stink.... That's seriously the attitude.

Several here attack from several fronts
1) You are not Orthodox so you don't count / you don't know
2) How dare you (or IS OUTRAGE!   LOL)
3) You are lying
4) Your source is a photo hosted by ________ so since he hosts it, it's invalid
5) Nitpick specific photos (such as uncommon Russian pilgrims) that fit agendas for quick points.  (one time it was an argument about head coverings for females, and somebody posted a playboy photo cover of a lady with something over her head to make a point.)
6) Attack you, instead of addressing the point at hand
7) Dodge the specifics, address the general, miss the point, and will not hit the nail on the head
Cool Speak in "volumes of who has done it" rather than referencing the text of Early Christians (100+ years before Nicea)
9) Troll you for other arguments rather than addressing the arguments you make a valid point on, or subject matter of the thread.  
10) Contort scriptures, dropping rationale & context, in order to "prove you wrong".  

One time somebody even said "You smell bad".    Cheesy
But they were right.  I cleaned out the goat stalls that day... It was weird.
I was raised & baptized in the Eastern Orthodox church.  I was in communion & participated in a few of the sacraments as a child.

I won't go into details of why I parted the church... Mostly because of my parents in my youth, but no excuse as an adult as I am 34 years old now.

Anyway, I am considering returning to the church, but I am having a lot of problems on a few subjects.


1) Repetitious prayer.  We were commanded by God incarnate not to pray in repetition as the heathens do.  Yet there are prayer ropes...  Over and over again the same prayer is said "O Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy upon me a sinner".   I did this a lot as a child, but I'm not sure God needs so much repetition.  Being all powerful, wouldn't he get the point by just saying it once?  Was Jesus's example the Lord's prayer so that we would not do this?
The repitition is for you, not God. Any manuel I have seen on the Jesus prayer says this.

Quote
2) Mistranslation in English of the name "Jesus Christ".  Perhaps this is a Greek problem, but in proper Aramaic translation his name is pronounced in English as Yeshua.  Why have we not fixed this in English?   King James took the 'Iesus Christos' from the Greek.  Yeshua spoke Aramaic, as did the disciples. I find it kind of strange that we are calling our savior TECHNICALLY incorrectly.

The last letter of יֵשׁוּעַ is not "a" but "'," a letter few English speakers do not say incorrectly.  A bigger issue is the distinction English makes between Jesus and Joshua, something Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek do not do.

Quote
3) I know that veneration of Icons is showing respect & love to the individual in heaven / reverence etc.  But as an adult, I'm having a VERY tough time with this.  You are kissing paint & wood, or glass on top of paint/wood etc.  Period.  When people do kiss them, they cross themselves first...  How can we logically say that we are in veneration to the individual, when we kiss paint & wood with a painting of them that an artist "thinks" they may have looked like?

You're in Texas. Do an experiment. In a large crowd on the fourth of July there, kiss a representation of American flag, and then spit on it. See the differences in reaction of those around you.

Quote
4) Why is it important to constantly cross yourself.  I've never once read in the bible where Yeshua (Jesus) or an apostle did this.  How does this help?  The way I see it is "God knows what you mean".   Why is it so important?  We were commanded to pray in the name of Yeshua (Jesus) OR aka - The trinity.  So when we say "In the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy spirit" (emphasis added on the sacred name), why does crossing ourselves help?  I can't imagine how God sees us sitting there crossing ourselves so many times - even during a liturgy.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Galatians 6:14


Quote
5) Did the apostles venerate icons of Christ?

Yes. Start here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29149.0.html

Quote
6) Did Yeshua/Jesus have an altar or practice anything similar to a divine liturgy (St. John Chrysostom (sp?)  regularly?  Did the apostles do this?
Yes. They, and therefore we, have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. Heb. 13:10.

Quote
7) Did the apostles use incense?  Did they use the censor on anything?  (Or is there evidence of any early Christian doing this such as Polycarp, Tertullian, Clement, or even Cyprian?


Is there any reference to incense in the book of Revelation of the Apostle John?

Quote
Cool Are we allowed to "confess our sins to one another" as the scriptures mandate, or is it only to a priest?

You can confess to anyone, but you can get absolution only from the priesthood.  Christ makes that quite clear.

Quote
9) Do you feel God likes all the "bling" in the church.  Silver chalices (ironic as Christ was betrayed for silver), gold plate , shiny stuff.  The vestments of that of rich priests, bishops... Large - rich - or luxurious churches (not all but there are some).


Does God have something against beauty? I've seen no evidence of it.

Quote
10) Do the Orthodox accept Freemasons in their church?  (I find it to be a luciferian faith - Freemasonry)

No.

Quote
11) Are the Orthodox allowed to hold public office, be part of the military, be on a jury, or be a police officer?  All which require a SWORN OATH "To protect and defend the constitution" etc., when Yeshua (Jesus) clearly told us not to swear and let our answers be clear as a Yes or No.

The Lord took an oath at His trial before the unjust judges. Don't relie on late Protestant eisogesis of His words.

Quote
12) Did any early Christians (Prue Nicea), apostles, or Yeshua (Jesus) "Bless" inadament objects?  a) home blessings  b) oil  c) icons d) crosses e) water (found in the old testament)  - What does blessing these things do to them exactly?

All of the above, and it puts them in their proper relationship-service to the Glory of God.

Quote
13) Liturgical repetition.   I'm having trouble because I wonder of God wants us to pray the same things over and over again nearly every Sunday.  I don't know if this falls into the question #1 category of repetition, but it's kind of hard for me to do it over and over again when I figure God knows I truly meant it last week.
Again, the repition is for you, not God. One swip rarely polishes anything, so I don't think you truly mean it as much as you think. Repetition brings that home.

Quote
14) Did the early Christians practice ordination after somebody graduated from a seminary?  Or did they basically ordinate people who were of great faith & understood the teachings of Yeshua (Jesus)?  When was a degree requirement needed for this sacrament of ordination?

Being tested by the bishops and found worthy.  Seminaries came with schools.


Quote
Please with all my heart & soul forgive me if I've offended anybody with these questions.  I'm just a very confused person right now and I'm trying to find the purity of early Christianity as the Pre-Nicean church fathers practiced.  Many of these WERE Orthodox in principal.... It's just the doctrines, practices, and habits of today's church, though very much unchanged since the 7th council....
nothing has changed since the 7th Council, nor for that matter before the 1st: anything we do now is well attested before Nicea I.
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« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2013, 11:05:32 AM »

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles- "Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."


IIRC, we have already dealt with this picture: its a "Greek Catholic" with a "Roman Catholic," who, being in communion with each other and not with us, can do as they like.

Metropolitan Augustine of Germany (on the left), accountable to the EP, is not a Greek Catholic.
You sure?  I can't really tell from the angle, but he looks like a Melkite bishop whose name escapes me.

If so, he should give account.  The EP isn't the only one he is accountable to.
you are correct.  My apologies to you and yeshuaisiam-as he is also correct: the Metropolitan should explain himself.

I've seen the picture, but I seem to recall it being labeled as a Melkite,  I seem to have missed this thread on it:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44766.0.html
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« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2013, 02:56:22 PM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 02:57:22 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2013, 03:02:04 PM »

This isn't about me.
Your religion is.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".
I'd hash this out with you, but it is none of your business.

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.
I see you feel the same way about knowledge.

I'm sorry, but you do understand that your arguments are seriously without merit.  I'm fully presenting facts about ecumenism, and you are contorting a bash session on me personally.

Look, I'm not the one holding services with the Pope who says "Muslims worship the one God".   Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is.

I left EO because of ecumenism, because I refused to make excuses for these people.   That brought in a flurry of questions on other thing "Eastern Orthodox", as my trust in EO bishops is gone.
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« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2013, 03:05:14 PM »

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh
Your sources have been cross checked and found wanting, and your interpretation carries even less weight.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.
put the projector away.
*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
Before Your Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Your Holy Resurrection we glorify.

We have been doing that ever since He rose on the third day.

Stick to ecumenism.  Quit bashing. 

This thread is not about me...  It's about an EO patriarch engaged in ecumenism & attending services where the Pope says "Muslims worship the one God".

Tell you what, I'll start a thread soon, where you can bash me all you want. Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2013, 06:20:29 PM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.

Nonsense. You denounce icons and their veneration, yet their existence and veneration is a canonical requirement, and one followed by HOTCA of which you are so enamored. You denounce iconostases, yet they are present in HOTCA churches of which you are so enamored. You dismiss the use of liturgical objects such as the asterisk and diskos, and the table of oblation, yet even your beloved HOTCA uses them.

Yet again, you're picking and choosing what you like, confecting your own religion. It is indeed "all about you".
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« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2013, 06:33:47 PM »

So I've cited sources, which can be crossed checked, and I'm making this stuff up.  Huh
Your sources have been cross checked and found wanting, and your interpretation carries even less weight.
I'm sorry, but I can only conclude that you are going to live in a delusion no matter what is presented to you.
put the projector away.
*all bow*, I don't want any bows...... Especially by those who bow to blessed wood.... Which by the way - the early Christians didn't do that either.
Before Your Cross we bow down in worship, O Master, and Your Holy Resurrection we glorify.

We have been doing that ever since He rose on the third day.

Stick to ecumenism.  Quit bashing.  

This thread is not about me...  It's about an EO patriarch engaged in ecumenism & attending services where the Pope says "Muslims worship the one God".

Tell you what, I'll start a thread soon, where you can bash me all you want. Smiley
wouldn't want to feed that persecution complex you got going.

I'll discuss disciplining EO hierarchs with the Orthodox. No one else.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 06:35:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »

This isn't about me.
Your religion is.

It's about the POPE and YOUR BISHOPS & PATRIARCHS.   A Patriarch that PRAYS with a Pope, attends services with the Pope - who declares "Muslims worship the one God".
I'd hash this out with you, but it is none of your business.

I don't want to be in charge, I see what power has done, and I want nothing of it.
I see you feel the same way about knowledge.

I'm sorry, but you do understand that your arguments are seriously without merit.  I'm fully presenting facts about ecumenism, and you are contorting a bash session on me personally.

Look, I'm not the one holding services with the Pope who says "Muslims worship the one God".   Eastern Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is.

I left EO because of ecumenism, because I refused to make excuses for these people.   That brought in a flurry of questions on other thing "Eastern Orthodox", as my trust in EO bishops is gone.
one should place their hope in the episcopate of Orthodoxy, not in one of its bishops.
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« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2013, 11:19:29 PM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.

Nonsense. You denounce icons and their veneration, yet their existence and veneration is a canonical requirement, and one followed by HOTCA of which you are so enamored. You denounce iconostases, yet they are present in HOTCA churches of which you are so enamored. You dismiss the use of liturgical objects such as the asterisk and diskos, and the table of oblation, yet even your beloved HOTCA uses them.

Yet again, you're picking and choosing what you like, confecting your own religion. It is indeed "all about you".

No, you are completely missing the point.

I did not swear (as bishops do and Christ said not to) to follow the canon of the Orthodox church upon ordination.
I believe that HOTCA follows the canon, which I don't entirely agree with latter canon.
I dismiss the use of these objects, as they were not original at all.

So for Orthodox Christians, I would say that HOTCA follows the Canon.   I would not blame them to flock towards HOTCA if that's how they believe.
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« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2013, 12:16:38 AM »

Quote
no prayer rope, iconostasis, icons, "Easter" (pagan morphed), "Christmas" (pagan morphed), table of oblation, asterisk, discos,  etc.  

Psssst, Yesh, ummm, I'm sorry to break the news to you:

HOTCA venerates "blessed pieces of wood" (icons), uses a table of oblation and an asterisk and diskos during its Eucharist, and HOTCA churches have iconostases in them. And I'd be very, very surprised if they don't use prayer ropes.


Not really.  I'm saying that Orthodox tradition is practiced by HOTCA, as they follow the canon.
The others don't.

It's pretty simple.  Plus it's not about me, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.
I know they do.

I said "as far as Eastern Orthodox Tradition & Canon goes".    I would find HOTCA to be very accurate with Eastern Orthodox Tradition.   I'm just being fair.  You won't find their bishops in ecumenism, new calendars, clergy shaving, etc.   I could completely understand people disagreeing with me on the above issues which were incepted into the church, but with EASTERN ORTHODOX understanding - I could totally understand if people started flocking to HOTCA in droves.  (Clergy and laymen)

I'm not saying I agree with these inceptions, but just implying that they follow Eastern Orthodox tradition as its been for a long while.

Again, I mean to take nobody's focus off of lent.  Despite disagreements I do believe we all are just "trying to do what we feel is right".

Off to bed, this one has gone late.
God Bless.

What a shabby, cop-out answer. You bag the canonical churches for using these things which are part of Orthodox Tradition (and the veneration of icons had two Ecumenical Councils, no less, which issued canons on their veneration), yet you're quite willing to overlook the fact that groups like HOTCA use them.

I don't think I'm copping out.  I just basically mean that HOTCA follows the Canon, the others don't.

It's not about ME, I'm not a bishop violating the canon.

Nonsense. You denounce icons and their veneration, yet their existence and veneration is a canonical requirement, and one followed by HOTCA of which you are so enamored. You denounce iconostases, yet they are present in HOTCA churches of which you are so enamored. You dismiss the use of liturgical objects such as the asterisk and diskos, and the table of oblation, yet even your beloved HOTCA uses them.

Yet again, you're picking and choosing what you like, confecting your own religion. It is indeed "all about you".

No, you are completely missing the point.

I did not swear (as bishops do and Christ said not to) to follow the canon of the Orthodox church upon ordination.
I believe that HOTCA follows the canon, which I don't entirely agree with latter canon.
I dismiss the use of these objects, as they were not original at all.

So for Orthodox Christians, I would say that HOTCA follows the Canon.   I would not blame them to flock towards HOTCA if that's how they believe.
I would blame any Orthodox who follows your belief.
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« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2013, 07:54:04 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK


I do not see many similarities:



with 45 minute Liturgies

Seen that in an Orthodox church. Still more suitable than 3:30 Liturgies I've been to too.
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« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2013, 08:21:34 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
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« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2013, 08:36:30 AM »

Which is why I choose to life my family lifestyle in that manner.
OK


I do not see many similarities:


You have to remember it is not how things actually were in the first century, but how they are imagined post Reformation how they were in the first century, that counts.
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« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2013, 08:42:06 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.
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« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2013, 09:38:22 AM »

I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Oh, I didn't even notice that part. Yes, strange indeed.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.

I suspected as much. It is unlikely that the Italians used unleavened bread as early as the 8th century.
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« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2013, 09:53:26 AM »

I suspected as much. It is unlikely that the Italians used unleavened bread as early as the 8th century.

AFAIK that Liturgy was celebrated by a Greek priest and in the Byzantine rite.
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« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2013, 03:07:15 PM »

Here is another disastrous picture of ecumenism:



Patriarch Theophilos gifting a norwegian female bishop a cross made of pearls



Patriarch Bartholomew blessing along with Pope Benedict. Later he also prays (not the creed, after that). obviously breaking the canons, praying with heretics in their own church

-

And, how can we forget? Patriarch Bartholomew gifting a Koran at the coca cola event. Who said the silver chalice given to the lutheran was just a cup? Was the koran here just some paper? Nothing more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
at 32:15

Patriarch Bartholomew certainly does not think it is just a book. He says, and I quote:

"I have a small souvenir. Small and great. Souvenir to [i miss the name] and Muhtar. This is the Holy Koran the sacred book of our Muslim brothers and sisters, to you."

-

And of course, when Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Demetrios went to a synogogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpHM6CYVGs

---

Anyway, it is obvious and undeniable quite a few bishops are breaking canons. In fact they are encouraging it by doing these things. At the same time, no one is following the fathers who put the punishments for such things.  Patriarch Bartholomew is still Patriarch, still inviting the Pope to go to the Phanar and Jerusalem. No amount of dancing around the subject will change that they are breaking canons which call for them to be defrocked if they do so.

On one hand, the Patriarch is harsh with the schismatics who cease commemoration of him because he has broken canons, yet on the other seems to love schismatics who have caused the loss of so many souls in the west.


I wonder if Athos gave up on fighting the Patriarch. They have not released anything as of late. Perhaps they are waiting till the pope goes to the phanar again and also to jerusalem. But I will guess they will not fight again



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« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2013, 03:32:03 PM »

Here is another disastrous picture of ecumenism:



Patriarch Theophilos gifting a norwegian female bishop a cross made of pearls



Patriarch Bartholomew blessing along with Pope Benedict. Later he also prays (not the creed, after that). obviously breaking the canons, praying with heretics in their own church

-

And, how can we forget? Patriarch Bartholomew gifting a Koran at the coca cola event. Who said the silver chalice given to the lutheran was just a cup? Was the koran here just some paper? Nothing more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
at 32:15

Patriarch Bartholomew certainly does not think it is just a book. He says, and I quote:

"I have a small souvenir. Small and great. Souvenir to [i miss the name] and Muhtar. This is the Holy Koran the sacred book of our Muslim brothers and sisters, to you."
If HAH said "our sacred book," I'd worry.

Is it more than just some paper to you?
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« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2013, 12:41:49 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.
lol, you should become a comedian and stop talking about subjects that you don't know about...like religion for example
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« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2013, 12:41:49 AM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


to you what really  happened at fatima
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« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2013, 05:39:38 PM »

Here is another disastrous picture of ecumenism:



Patriarch Theophilos gifting a norwegian female bishop a cross made of pearls



Patriarch Bartholomew blessing along with Pope Benedict. Later he also prays (not the creed, after that). obviously breaking the canons, praying with heretics in their own church

-

And, how can we forget? Patriarch Bartholomew gifting a Koran at the coca cola event. Who said the silver chalice given to the lutheran was just a cup? Was the koran here just some paper? Nothing more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0PSYG30BRY
at 32:15

Patriarch Bartholomew certainly does not think it is just a book. He says, and I quote:

"I have a small souvenir. Small and great. Souvenir to [i miss the name] and Muhtar. This is the Holy Koran the sacred book of our Muslim brothers and sisters, to you."
If HAH said "our sacred book," I'd worry.

Is it more than just some paper to you?

he calls it the "HOLY" Koran, as if it has some kind of truth in it he must give it legitimacy. Did all of this just fly past you? he gifted A KORAN! a ORTHODOX BISHOP gifting a KORAN!

Anyway, here are some more great pictures of bishops breaking canons:











and some good ol heretical statements by Patriarch Athenagoras :

“We are deceived and we sin, if we think that the Orthodox faith came down from Heaven and that all [other] creeds are unworthy. Three hundred million people have chosen Islam in order to reach their god, and other hundreds of millions are Protestants, Catholics, and Buddhists. The goal of every religion is to improve mankind” (from statements made by the Patriarch; see ορθόδοξος τύπος  , No. 94 [December 1968]).

“We have been seperated for 911 years and now the time has come for us to be found together again. The Catholics and the Orthodox do not belong to two different Churches, but to two branches of the same Church” (Milan, Nov. 2, 1965, Corriere de la Sera ; cited Orthodox Word, January-February-March 1966 issue, Vol. 2, No.1, p. 36).

“Recent [1970--Trans.] statements by Athenagoras. “The rason (cassock) no longer has any appeal today, neither in appearance nor in purpose. If I’d seen you beforehand, I would have told you to give some other title to your article: ‘The rason does not make the Priest, the Priest must make the Priest, without the rason’ There you have it. Of course, we must be realistic and, above all, we mustn’t be afraid of the truth. We say oftentimes that this or that item is historical and must endure. A mistake. A big mistake. How many preconceptions in the Church are not historical--I mean ancient--and we struggle to free ourselves from them? Ask village Priests what Christians want from Priests, who have nothing to do with our Church and are remnants of paganism. I’ve made my views quite clear regarding the marriage of clergymen, even after they have been ordained. Ordination is not an impediment to marriage. We would have many graduates of theological schools who would be Priests, if they knew that they could get married when they found their partner for life, and not in haste, as it’s demanded by convention. We would have decided on this at a clergy-laity congress of the Church in America, and I would have settled this matter, but I wasn’t able to. I was summoned here [to Constantinople--Trans.]. I’m glad you published the entire address by Metropolitan [Meliton] of Chalcedon [concerning Mardi Gras--editorial note in the Greek original]. He spoke the truth plain and simple, like people want it. People don’t want you to confuse things, because they think you’re laughing at them and making fun of them. Meliton is quite a personality. We don’t have many of them. He’s the voice of the Phanar, the voice of the centuries. The centuries have given us courage and strength. What else have we got here? Some people, naturally, accuse us of not holding to a good line, but they’re being negative. I’d be very happy if they proposed their own solution to the endeavor of the union of the Churches. They tell us, ’ We want union and we pray for the union of all, but we’re against your endeavor.’ You get the point? They’re in favor of union, but against our endeavor. Was not Meliton right, after all, when he talked about hypocrisy? We propose the Holy Cup as the means of union. We had the common Cup even when we separated from the West, up until 1050. The Schism took place, and we stopped. The Schism took place because of the anathema. The anathema between the two Churches, of the West and Constantinople, has been lifted. What obstacle is there? Let’s find it, let’s talk about it with a good attitude, not with insults. Can there be a dialogue of love when there are insults? ‘But we have many differences,’ they tell us. What differences? The Filioque? It existed since the seventh century, and the Churches didn’t separate. Primacy and Infallibility? What do we care about them? Let every Church maintain its own customs. If the Catholic Church wants it, let it keep it. But I ask you: What does Infallibility mean today, when the Pope has a permanent fifteen-member council in Rome which makes the decisions? Besides, we all think we’re infallible--in our work, in our thoughts, in everything. Does your wife ask you how much salt to put in the food? Certainly not. She has her infallibility. Let the Pope have his, if he wants it. We don’t want it. Theological dialogue won’t grant it. We’re not ready, and centuries will be needed. Only one dialogue is feasible: the dialogue of love. This will facilitate the dialogue regarding differences. Differences and love can’t coexist. It does not matter what others do to you, but what you do to them” (from an interview given by the Patriarch to the journalist Spyridon Alexiou, from the newspaper EqnoV, and published on March 20, 1970.) [bolded that part myself]

“Where is Christ the Savior? In our divisions, we have chased Him away.... Thus, today, does history, valiantly restoring the truth of things, summon the responsible leaders and hierarchies of the Churches to enlist theology, now as a handmaid, and make ‘man,’ for whose sake God became man, the sole purpose of their existence and mission, and portray him in a positive light, at this tragic hour of his..., with the watchword of unconditional and unbounded love.... There is no other way of achieving this. The major ecclesiastical events of the last six years, especially our three successive meetings with His Holiness, Pope Paul VI and his recent declaration that ’no voice should be silent in the endless symphony of the Churches and the whole world,’ have abolished the distances separating us and bridged the gap.... His fellow-travelers are the Peoples of Christ. Unaware of dogmatic differences and not caring about them, they now see one another as brothers in Christ. And they live in impatient anticipation of the hour of union, and indeed, not as a distant legend, but as a profound reality deriving from within themselves. This is proof that Christ is born.... So it is that union, ceasing any longer to be ‘negotiable’ or an effort on the part of unrealistic and fruitless theological dialogues concerning union, has turned out to be practical and a fait accompli [French - ‘accomplished fact or work’] wrought by ‘peace-loving stragglers...” (from the Patriarch’s 1968 Nativity message; see Kaqolikh, No. 1611 [31 December 1968]).

“Why do we not automatically return to Mysteriological (Sacramental) communion? Because it is necessary for us to prepare our peoples for it, both theologically and psychologically. During the nine hundred years that have elapsed since 1054, we, the two worlds of East and West, have come to think that we belong to different Churches and different religions. And, as a result, the purpose of dialogues becomes quite evident. It is to prepare our peoples psychologically to understand that there is one Church and one religion, that we all believe in the same God-the Savior Christ. You and we respect all religions and we esteem the place and the time in which we live” (from a homily given by “Patriarch” Athenagoras in the chapel of Lambeth Palace, London, November 13, 1967; see Apo thn poreian thV agaphV, p. 53; see also Archimandrite Athanasios J. Vasilopoulos, From the Journey of Love... [in Greek] (Athens: 1968), p. 53a. -- These views were reiterated on January 10, 1968 (ibid., p. 87b: “Patriarchal visits and their happy results”).

And a heretical action again:

“During his meeting with Pope Paul VI in Rome, on October 26, 1967, the Patriarch sat on the Papal throne for twenty minutes, receiving primarily the Greek Orthodox in Rome, but also Russian Orthodox refugees. They applauded loudly when the Patriarch commemorated the Pope’s name in Greek” (see Kaqolikh, No. 1557 [1 November 1967]).

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« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2013, 08:13:11 PM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


You really believe Lanciano - with the azymes and all?
I have more of an issue with the story that it happened at the Words of Institution, and not after the Epiclesis.

Somewhere we have a thread where Irish Hermit/Fr. Ambrose (many years!) posted evidence that it was leavened bread.
lol, you should become a comedian and stop talking about subjects that you don't know about...like religion for example
Like I said, you don't have a head, so it can't be your mouth that's talking.  Which would explain the low/no information content.
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« Reply #114 on: April 23, 2013, 08:14:50 PM »

the miracles of lourdes, fatima, lanciano just to name a few prove the traditional Catholic religion to be the true Church of Christ, not the vatican 2 sect full of paedophiles of course, how do you think you will be saved, what faith are you

The miracle of Lanciano happened in the Catholic Church indeed. Other pseudomiracles mentioned by you - didn't.


to you what really  happened at fatima
mass hysteria.
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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #115 on: April 23, 2013, 08:40:16 PM »

he calls it the "HOLY" Koran, as if it has some kind of truth in it he must give it legitimacy. Did all of this just fly past you? he gifted A KORAN! a ORTHODOX BISHOP gifting a KORAN!
If he "gifted" it to an Orthodox, instead of a Muslim, I might take notice.

Muslims believe that the Qur'an is too holy for non-Muslims to touch it.  You seem to agree with them.

Anyway, here are some more great pictures of bishops breaking canons:











and some good ol heretical statements by Patriarch Athenagoras :
You are aware that EP Athenagoras has passed away over three decades, and been replaced twice.

“We are deceived and we sin, if we think that the Orthodox faith came down from Heaven and that all [other] creeds are unworthy. Three hundred million people have chosen Islam in order to reach their god, and other hundreds of millions are Protestants, Catholics, and Buddhists. The goal of every religion is to improve mankind” (from statements made by the Patriarch; see ορθόδοξος τύπος  , No. 94 [December 1968]).

“We have been seperated for 911 years and now the time has come for us to be found together again. The Catholics and the Orthodox do not belong to two different Churches, but to two branches of the same Church” (Milan, Nov. 2, 1965, Corriere de la Sera ; cited Orthodox Word, January-February-March 1966 issue, Vol. 2, No.1, p. 36).

“Recent [1970--Trans.] statements by Athenagoras. “The rason (cassock) no longer has any appeal today, neither in appearance nor in purpose. If I’d seen you beforehand, I would have told you to give some other title to your article: ‘The rason does not make the Priest, the Priest must make the Priest, without the rason’ There you have it. Of course, we must be realistic and, above all, we mustn’t be afraid of the truth. We say oftentimes that this or that item is historical and must endure. A mistake. A big mistake. How many preconceptions in the Church are not historical--I mean ancient--and we struggle to free ourselves from them? Ask village Priests what Christians want from Priests, who have nothing to do with our Church and are remnants of paganism. I’ve made my views quite clear regarding the marriage of clergymen, even after they have been ordained. Ordination is not an impediment to marriage. We would have many graduates of theological schools who would be Priests, if they knew that they could get married when they found their partner for life, and not in haste, as it’s demanded by convention. We would have decided on this at a clergy-laity congress of the Church in America, and I would have settled this matter, but I wasn’t able to. I was summoned here [to Constantinople--Trans.]. I’m glad you published the entire address by Metropolitan [Meliton] of Chalcedon [concerning Mardi Gras--editorial note in the Greek original]. He spoke the truth plain and simple, like people want it. People don’t want you to confuse things, because they think you’re laughing at them and making fun of them. Meliton is quite a personality. We don’t have many of them. He’s the voice of the Phanar, the voice of the centuries. The centuries have given us courage and strength. What else have we got here? Some people, naturally, accuse us of not holding to a good line, but they’re being negative. I’d be very happy if they proposed their own solution to the endeavor of the union of the Churches. They tell us, ’ We want union and we pray for the union of all, but we’re against your endeavor.’ You get the point? They’re in favor of union, but against our endeavor. Was not Meliton right, after all, when he talked about hypocrisy? We propose the Holy Cup as the means of union. We had the common Cup even when we separated from the West, up until 1050. The Schism took place, and we stopped. The Schism took place because of the anathema. The anathema between the two Churches, of the West and Constantinople, has been lifted. What obstacle is there? Let’s find it, let’s talk about it with a good attitude, not with insults. Can there be a dialogue of love when there are insults? ‘But we have many differences,’ they tell us. What differences? The Filioque? It existed since the seventh century, and the Churches didn’t separate. Primacy and Infallibility? What do we care about them? Let every Church maintain its own customs. If the Catholic Church wants it, let it keep it. But I ask you: What does Infallibility mean today, when the Pope has a permanent fifteen-member council in Rome which makes the decisions? Besides, we all think we’re infallible--in our work, in our thoughts, in everything. Does your wife ask you how much salt to put in the food? Certainly not. She has her infallibility. Let the Pope have his, if he wants it. We don’t want it. Theological dialogue won’t grant it. We’re not ready, and centuries will be needed. Only one dialogue is feasible: the dialogue of love. This will facilitate the dialogue regarding differences. Differences and love can’t coexist. It does not matter what others do to you, but what you do to them” (from an interview given by the Patriarch to the journalist Spyridon Alexiou, from the newspaper EqnoV, and published on March 20, 1970.) [bolded that part myself]

“Where is Christ the Savior? In our divisions, we have chased Him away.... Thus, today, does history, valiantly restoring the truth of things, summon the responsible leaders and hierarchies of the Churches to enlist theology, now as a handmaid, and make ‘man,’ for whose sake God became man, the sole purpose of their existence and mission, and portray him in a positive light, at this tragic hour of his..., with the watchword of unconditional and unbounded love.... There is no other way of achieving this. The major ecclesiastical events of the last six years, especially our three successive meetings with His Holiness, Pope Paul VI and his recent declaration that ’no voice should be silent in the endless symphony of the Churches and the whole world,’ have abolished the distances separating us and bridged the gap.... His fellow-travelers are the Peoples of Christ. Unaware of dogmatic differences and not caring about them, they now see one another as brothers in Christ. And they live in impatient anticipation of the hour of union, and indeed, not as a distant legend, but as a profound reality deriving from within themselves. This is proof that Christ is born.... So it is that union, ceasing any longer to be ‘negotiable’ or an effort on the part of unrealistic and fruitless theological dialogues concerning union, has turned out to be practical and a fait accompli [French - ‘accomplished fact or work’] wrought by ‘peace-loving stragglers...” (from the Patriarch’s 1968 Nativity message; see Kaqolikh, No. 1611 [31 December 1968]).

“Why do we not automatically return to Mysteriological (Sacramental) communion? Because it is necessary for us to prepare our peoples for it, both theologically and psychologically. During the nine hundred years that have elapsed since 1054, we, the two worlds of East and West, have come to think that we belong to different Churches and different religions. And, as a result, the purpose of dialogues becomes quite evident. It is to prepare our peoples psychologically to understand that there is one Church and one religion, that we all believe in the same God-the Savior Christ. You and we respect all religions and we esteem the place and the time in which we live” (from a homily given by “Patriarch” Athenagoras in the chapel of Lambeth Palace, London, November 13, 1967; see Apo thn poreian thV agaphV, p. 53; see also Archimandrite Athanasios J. Vasilopoulos, From the Journey of Love... [in Greek] (Athens: 1968), p. 53a. -- These views were reiterated on January 10, 1968 (ibid., p. 87b: “Patriarchal visits and their happy results”).

And a heretical action again:

“During his meeting with Pope Paul VI in Rome, on October 26, 1967, the Patriarch sat on the Papal throne for twenty minutes, receiving primarily the Greek Orthodox in Rome, but also Russian Orthodox refugees. They applauded loudly when the Patriarch commemorated the Pope’s name in Greek” (see Kaqolikh, No. 1557 [1 November 1967]).
I do believe these were dealt with while he lived.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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