Author Topic: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?  (Read 12239 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #135 on: July 24, 2013, 01:33:20 PM »
Now Kerdy you sound like a dualist. If God is all-powerful and evil doesn't even ontologically "exist"--as some folks say--but is unnatural and foreign, then God should not have to use it or rely on it as a part of His will at all. This is also my problem with the "good things can come from suffering" arguments. God shouldn't need to use evilness in the first place. Little kids shouldn't need to be molested in order for some little good thing to come from it.

I don't get how God can't be responsible for evil. We assert in the Creed that He created everything visible and invisible, which should mean evil as well. Likewise, if a man is responsible for something evil if he does not do anything to help it, then how come God isn't responsible for all of the carnage in human history that He has just silently sat through and allowed to happen? If I unleash my dog knowing it would tear up your furniture and it is my fault as the owner, then how come it is not God's fault for our mistakes since He created us with "freedom" and allowed us to do evil?

I also don't get the Christian idea of overemphasizing the goodness of God while downplaying the bad. God heals someone, must be God, oh thank God! A million kids die; it is not God's fault. God delivers the Israelites from slavery, praise Him! But then He orders the genocide of Canaan. Christ defeats death, hurray! Now if we don't meet the mark we will stay in a state of Hell forever, all thanks to Christ!

Offline J Michael

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #136 on: July 24, 2013, 02:33:15 PM »
You are not required to follow this "guy".  No one is holding a gun to your head making you do so.

No, but when He is threatening to send me to Hell for eternity (or a "state of" Hell or whatever some folks on here call it) you can't help but feel that He is requiring something and not really giving us freedom.

Well...there's another whole thread about Hell, but....if you end up there, it won't be because He sent you there.  The only thing that I'm aware of that God "requires" of us (and I don't think the term "require" is accurate) is to obey His commandments and to do His will.  We are always free not to do so.
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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #137 on: July 24, 2013, 02:52:33 PM »
You are not required to follow this "guy".  No one is holding a gun to your head making you do so.

No, but when He is threatening to send me to Hell for eternity (or a "state of" Hell or whatever some folks on here call it) you can't help but feel that He is requiring something and not really giving us freedom.

He can't threaten you if he's not there. 

So if we accept that he's out there in some form, as opposed to you having mental issues or succumbing to peer pressure to believe or something, then the ball is really in your court: what are you going to do with that information? 

As J Michael said, you're not required to do anything about it, you can go on living your life as you see fit.  Many people believe that God exists without believing anything else about it.  And God isn't threatening you with hell if you can truthfully claim in multiple posts that he doesn't even talk to you.  If you want to live your life as you see fit, then man up and do so.  God respects men.

So why do you feel threatened? 
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #138 on: July 24, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »
One gives thanks to God "for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition". He "covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us into Him, spared us, supported us, and has brought us to this hour", and may I add, trough bad times and good times. In other words, diseased or healthy, suffering or in comfort, alive or dead, we thank God for His blessings to us, for standing by our sides in our sufferings, for giving us eternal life and sharing in the conquering of suffering through suffering, and killing death through death.

Therefore, yes God is good. Peace He gives to us, peace He leaves with us. But the world does not give what He gives.  Therefore, blessed are you who weep now, who are hungry now, who are persecuted now. Because you will receive your reward in heaven.  Through Christ, we no longer just thank God for all the physical good that happens. Even in all the worldly evils that happens, we can still recognize God's goodness, not because God permits evils "to strengthen us" or to "avoid a greater evil." But because the world no longer matters, whether it offers rewards or curses. For the curses of the world Christ carried, that whatever the world offers us in terms of "bad" is more of a blessing than the worldly rewards. So as Mor Ephrem said, "MAN UP" because Christ did.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 03:38:54 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #139 on: July 24, 2013, 05:56:08 PM »
Now Kerdy you sound like a dualist.
That's ok.  It's not the worst accusation I've received here.

Offline Father H

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #140 on: July 25, 2013, 01:47:01 AM »
You are not required to follow this "guy".  No one is holding a gun to your head making you do so.

No, but when He is threatening to send me to Hell for eternity (or a "state of" Hell or whatever some folks on here call it) you can't help but feel that He is requiring something and not really giving us freedom.

So let me get this straight:
1.  You resent God for giving others too much freedom to harm kids
2.  You don't like God because He will send you to hell if you harm kids, and you feel that restricts your freedom

We are free to do or attempt to do whatever we want, but there are consequences for every action that we do.   You are free to go rob a bank.  The cops are free to arrest you afterwards. 

Offline Kerdy

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2013, 05:48:17 AM »
I just finished the story with my children about Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers.  One of the learning points is basically understanding what one considers bad can happen, but keeping faith in God and realizing God has the master plan, which we are not privy to, will end in good.  Sometimes bad things happen so God can do better than good.  Not always, but many times.  Sometimes people are just evil and do evil things which have nothing at all to do with Gods hand.  Others, like Joseph, God did have His hand in the mix.

Offline Sleeper

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #142 on: July 25, 2013, 08:38:52 AM »
What's interesting in this question is that God has already shown us what He thinks of evil, in the life and death of Christ. Whatever philosophical, moral, or emotional problems we have with evil, God feels them too, joined us in our predicament, experienced its full effect on the cross, and gave us hope through His resurrection. That overshadows any sort of "reasoning" we can try to throw back at God. He already knows, and He has ultimately already taken care of it. So we can either believe that the life and death of Christ were irrelevant, or we can believe that God is not indifferent, that He knows deeper than any of us what true evil is, and that He would move Heaven and Earth (literally) to make it right.

In the meantime, we do what Christ did: weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.

Offline J Michael

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2013, 09:32:17 AM »
What's interesting in this question is that God has already shown us what He thinks of evil, in the life and death of Christ. Whatever philosophical, moral, or emotional problems we have with evil, God feels them too, joined us in our predicament, experienced its full effect on the cross, and gave us hope through His resurrection. That overshadows any sort of "reasoning" we can try to throw back at God. He already knows, and He has ultimately already taken care of it. So we can either believe that the life and death of Christ were irrelevant, or we can believe that God is not indifferent, that He knows deeper than any of us what true evil is, and that He would move Heaven and Earth (literally) to make it right.

In the meantime, we do what Christ did: weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.
^ THIS!!
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Offline AV

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2013, 09:45:00 AM »
What's interesting in this question is that God has already shown us what He thinks of evil, in the life and death of Christ. Whatever philosophical, moral, or emotional problems we have with evil, God feels them too, joined us in our predicament, experienced its full effect on the cross, and gave us hope through His resurrection. That overshadows any sort of "reasoning" we can try to throw back at God. He already knows, and He has ultimately already taken care of it. So we can either believe that the life and death of Christ were irrelevant, or we can believe that God is not indifferent, that He knows deeper than any of us what true evil is, and that He would move Heaven and Earth (literally) to make it right.

In the meantime, we do what Christ did: weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.

Never heard it said better, ever. Excellent post!
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Offline JamesR

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2013, 05:19:26 PM »
You are not required to follow this "guy".  No one is holding a gun to your head making you do so.

No, but when He is threatening to send me to Hell for eternity (or a "state of" Hell or whatever some folks on here call it) you can't help but feel that He is requiring something and not really giving us freedom.

So let me get this straight:
1.  You resent God for giving others too much freedom to harm kids
2.  You don't like God because He will send you to hell if you harm kids, and you feel that restricts your freedom

We are free to do or attempt to do whatever we want, but there are consequences for every action that we do.   You are free to go rob a bank.  The cops are free to arrest you afterwards. 

Perhaps my problem is more so with what type of actions God condemns and which lead to Hell.

I don't see any fault in sending people who harm other non-consenting people to Hell, but why people who do not harm any non-consenting person? I mean, fornicators aren't hurting anyone but themselves, yet, it's seen as a grave sin. Why can't God just give us our body and let us do whatever we want with it provided we don't hurt others?

Offline Kerdy

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2013, 05:25:22 PM »
You are not required to follow this "guy".  No one is holding a gun to your head making you do so.

No, but when He is threatening to send me to Hell for eternity (or a "state of" Hell or whatever some folks on here call it) you can't help but feel that He is requiring something and not really giving us freedom.

So let me get this straight:
1.  You resent God for giving others too much freedom to harm kids
2.  You don't like God because He will send you to hell if you harm kids, and you feel that restricts your freedom

We are free to do or attempt to do whatever we want, but there are consequences for every action that we do.   You are free to go rob a bank.  The cops are free to arrest you afterwards.  

Perhaps my problem is more so with what type of actions God condemns and which lead to Hell.

I don't see any fault in sending people who harm other non-consenting people to Hell, but why people who do not harm any non-consenting person? I mean, fornicators aren't hurting anyone but themselves, yet, it's seen as a grave sin. Why can't God just give us our body and let us do whatever we want with it provided we don't hurt others?
Fornicators don't hurt people?  Allow me to introduce you to the worlds of STD and single mother broken family units leading to fatherless, angry, unproductive children numbering in the millions.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 05:26:35 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »
I don't see any fault in sending people who harm other non-consenting people to Hell, but why people who do not harm any non-consenting person? I mean, fornicators masturbators aren't hurting anyone but themselves, yet, it's seen as a grave sin. Why can't God just give us our body and let us do whatever we want with it provided we don't hurt others?

That looks a bit better now.

Why is hurting yourself OK?  It's still hurt.  
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #148 on: July 25, 2013, 05:29:35 PM »
And there's this pesky thing called I Cor 6.19-20.  Easily bypassed, if you just forget the whole Jesus thing, until you die.  After that, all bets are off.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #149 on: July 25, 2013, 06:46:31 PM »
Now Kerdy you sound like a dualist. If God is all-powerful and evil doesn't even ontologically "exist"--as some folks say--but is unnatural and foreign, then God should not have to use it or rely on it as a part of His will at all. This is also my problem with the "good things can come from suffering" arguments. God shouldn't need to use evilness in the first place. Little kids shouldn't need to be molested in order for some little good thing to come from it.

I don't get how God can't be responsible for evil. We assert in the Creed that He created everything visible and invisible, which should mean evil as well. Likewise, if a man is responsible for something evil if he does not do anything to help it, then how come God isn't responsible for all of the carnage in human history that He has just silently sat through and allowed to happen? If I unleash my dog knowing it would tear up your furniture and it is my fault as the owner, then how come it is not God's fault for our mistakes since He created us with "freedom" and allowed us to do evil?

I also don't get the Christian idea of overemphasizing the goodness of God while downplaying the bad. God heals someone, must be God, oh thank God! A million kids die; it is not God's fault. God delivers the Israelites from slavery, praise Him! But then He orders the genocide of Canaan. Christ defeats death, hurray! Now if we don't meet the mark we will stay in a state of Hell forever, all thanks to Christ!

Evil is not a part of creation as even Einstein would have to agree. Evil is not something created that has mass, or is a Law of physics.
Evil is a concept of what man can perpetuate. It is without form and function without man doing something which creates it. Therefore man created evil .

 God created man with great expectations just as our parents do. This does not make them responsible for what you create, just as God is not responsible for what man has wrought .
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2013, 06:56:44 PM »
I don't see any fault in sending people who harm other non-consenting people to Hell, but why people who do not harm any non-consenting person? I mean, fornicators masturbators aren't hurting anyone but themselves, yet, it's seen as a grave sin. Why can't God just give us our body and let us do whatever we want with it provided we don't hurt others?

That looks a bit better now.

Why is hurting yourself OK?  It's still hurt.  
'Anything that we do has an effect on others , there is also a scientific theory called the Butterfly effect, which is more proof that even little butterflies can effect great changes in our world.

In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which a small change at one place in a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state. The name of the effect, coined by Edward Lorenz, is derived from the theoretical example of a hurricane's formation being contingent on whether or not a distant butterfly had flapped its wings several weeks earlier.
Although the butterfly effect may appear to be an esoteric and unlikely behavior, it is exhibited by very simple systems. For example, a ball placed at the crest of a hill may roll into any surrounding valley depending on, among other things, slight differences in initial position.
The butterfly effect is a common trope in fiction, especially in scenarios involving time travel. Additionally, works of fiction that involve points at which the storyline diverges during a seemingly minor event, resulting in a significantly different outcome than would have occurred without the divergence, are an example of the butterfly effect.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2013, 07:44:10 PM »
I don't see any fault in sending people who harm other non-consenting people to Hell, but why people who do not harm any non-consenting person? I mean, fornicators masturbators aren't hurting anyone but themselves, yet, it's seen as a grave sin. Why can't God just give us our body and let us do whatever we want with it provided we don't hurt others?

That looks a bit better now.

Why is hurting yourself OK?  It's still hurt.  

No sin is ever self-contained because by such personal offenses, we still miss the mark. We fall and are affected and because we are affected negatively, we are not able to function as we might otherwise, and this deficit can and does negatively affect others.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #152 on: July 26, 2013, 02:19:21 PM »
And there's this pesky thing called I Cor 6.19-20.  Easily bypassed, if you just forget the whole Jesus thing, until you die.  After that, all bets are off.

Excellent reference!

How incredibly easy it is, especially when masturbating, fornicating, or otherwise debauching, to forget (or just plain ignore the fact) that "our" bodies are not ours--they are God's.
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #153 on: July 30, 2013, 04:57:20 PM »
The explanation for why bad things happen, is in the Bible.

In Genesis Chapter 3

Is that where Adam and Eve are said to have first sinned when in reality, Satan was the first sinner and he was put there by God.

His purported lies came first so to blame man for what God and his helper Satan did is not quite fair.

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #154 on: July 30, 2013, 06:28:41 PM »
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

 Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL  

Offline Incognito777

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Re: So Why does God allow Bad things to Happen?
« Reply #155 on: August 03, 2013, 10:37:20 PM »

Oh, goodie!  I was worried after reading your earlier posts about having seen devils, but this calms all my fears. 

I saw a demon, not demoms or devils (plural). I don't have a history of hallucinations either.

In this short video, William Lane Craig explains the existence of evil in the world, and why God allows it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtx5GyP7i7w