Author Topic: Dilemma  (Read 498 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Dilemma
« on: April 12, 2013, 09:32:14 PM »
Okay here is a question I have been pondering for quite a while--and even alluded to in one of the Hyperdox Herman memes. I know it sounds silly at first, but, here it goes:

If the fetus inside of a pregnant woman is considered a person--hence why we are (or at least should be) against abortion--then how come pregnant women are allowed to receive the Eucharist? Technically wouldn't it be heresy to commune a pregnant woman since the fetus would be sharing in the Eucharist and thus we would be communing an unbaptized person? I only see two options; either, the Church is in error for giving the Eucharist to unbaptized fetuses all these years, or fetuses aren't really people. Pick your poison :)
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2013, 10:35:39 PM »

The Church is never in error.

The fetus is a life, however, it is still within it's mother.  The Eucharist will filter through to the child, just as her blood provides it life sustaining nutrients. 

James....you way overthink these things.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2013, 10:43:55 PM »
Okay here is a question I have been pondering for quite a while--and even alluded to in one of the Hyperdox Herman memes. I know it sounds silly at first, but, here it goes:

If the fetus inside of a pregnant woman is considered a person--hence why we are (or at least should be) against abortion--then how come pregnant women are allowed to receive the Eucharist? Technically wouldn't it be heresy to commune a pregnant woman since the fetus would be sharing in the Eucharist and thus we would be communing an unbaptized person? I only see two options; either, the Church is in error for giving the Eucharist to unbaptized fetuses all these years, or fetuses aren't really people. Pick your poison :)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2013, 11:52:57 PM »
I'm just going to play.  Just some randomness.

Pre-birth a child is not born.

Baptism is "being born again of water & the spirit".

Thus water is used, same as the water breaking when the baby is born.

You can't be born again if you aren't born. 

The baby is also connected to its mother, and arguably are one in the same.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2013, 12:03:09 AM »

One could also argue that a nursing mother may share the Eucharist with her child through her milk.

Does that mean nursing moms ought not partake?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 12:21:20 AM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 12:24:46 AM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 01:04:45 AM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

I think he's saying that the Actual Presence doesn't transfer to the unborn child. How do we even know that?

Regardless, it's the mother who takes the communion, not the child.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 01:05:00 AM by lovesupreme »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 01:09:26 AM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

I think he's saying that the Actual Presence doesn't transfer to the unborn child. How do we even know that?

If a Holy Father said that the Body and Blood of Christ do not pass through to the unborn child, then that would be acceptable.

Regardless, it's the mother who takes the communion, not the child.

The products of digestion enter the mother's bloodstream and pass through the placenta.

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 01:34:52 AM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

I think he's saying that the Actual Presence doesn't transfer to the unborn child. How do we even know that?

If a Holy Father said that the Body and Blood of Christ do not pass through to the unborn child, then that would be acceptable.

Regardless, it's the mother who takes the communion, not the child.

The products of digestion enter the mother's bloodstream and pass through the placenta.

Right, but I'm saying it's the mother who willfully takes the communion. She is the person to whom the priest serves the bread and wine. The child receives it as a consequence.

Wait, why am I still talking about this. Silly James.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 06:27:51 PM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

I think he's saying that the Actual Presence doesn't transfer to the unborn child. How do we even know that?

If a Holy Father said that the Body and Blood of Christ do not pass through to the unborn child, then that would be acceptable.

Regardless, it's the mother who takes the communion, not the child.

The products of digestion enter the mother's bloodstream and pass through the placenta.

Always eaten, but never consumed.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 06:28:56 PM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

Who says a child in the womb does commune? Either you must produce evidence of this or be silent.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 06:45:01 PM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

Who says a child in the womb does commune? Either you must produce evidence of this or be silent.

The answer is no, from an OO website which mentions a council that took place in 315 before the OO split:

Quote
Just as, Holy Communion may not be administered to dead or unconscious persons, so it would seem to follow that unintended Communion to the fetus through the blood of the mother does not take place, nor would the nursing child receive Communion either, when the mother receives Holy Communion.

http://www.mosc.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=320&Itemid=0495

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 04:51:54 PM »
No, the Holy Gifts do not pass through to the child. Or do ye suppose they be mere food and drink?

Says who?  If the bread species of Holy Communion can cause attacks of celiac disease in people, what stops the bread from passing from mother to child?   ???

Who says a child in the womb does commune? Either you must produce evidence of this or be silent.

The answer is no, from an OO website which mentions a council that took place in 315 before the OO split:

Quote
Just as, Holy Communion may not be administered to dead or unconscious persons, so it would seem to follow that unintended Communion to the fetus through the blood of the mother does not take place, nor would the nursing child receive Communion either, when the mother receives Holy Communion.

http://www.mosc.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=320&Itemid=0495

I'm sorry to have troubled you.  Forgive me a sinner.   :angel:

No worries. Forgive me.

A priest told me last Sunday that the sacraments are for hypostases. The hypostasis (or person) of the mother receives communion or confession or whatever, while the hypostasis of the baby in her womb or nursing does not.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 05:02:34 PM »
Okay here is a question I have been pondering for quite a while--and even alluded to in one of the Hyperdox Herman memes. I know it sounds silly at first, but, here it goes:

If the fetus inside of a pregnant woman is considered a person--hence why we are (or at least should be) against abortion--then how come pregnant women are allowed to receive the Eucharist? Technically wouldn't it be heresy to commune a pregnant woman since the fetus would be sharing in the Eucharist and thus we would be communing an unbaptized person? I only see two options; either, the Church is in error for giving the Eucharist to unbaptized fetuses all these years, or fetuses aren't really people. Pick your poison :)

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 05:04:06 PM »
James....you way overthink these things.

Excess is often a virtue. Frankly, wouldn't you want him putting his energy into this than other stuff guys his ages don't even bother to think about?
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Dilemma
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 05:04:54 PM »
I'm just going to play.  Just some randomness.

Pre-birth a child is not born.

Baptism is "being born again of water & the spirit".

Thus water is used, same as the water breaking when the baby is born.

You can't be born again if you aren't born.  

YIM,

Not a bad, straightforward apologetic! Nice.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 05:05:02 PM by orthonorm »
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.