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Author Topic: Dispensationalism/Rapture Christians  (Read 11804 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 11, 2013, 02:59:39 PM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 03:22:39 PM »

I don't know how it happened but some of these people can be very extreme in their views, that if you don't agree with their interpretation of the end times to them you might not even be a Christian. Bad theology, bad attitude.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 03:40:32 PM »

Dispensationalism and it's associated idea of a pre-tribulation rapture was first popularized in the U. S. through the influence of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909, revised 1917). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible  It originated in the 19th century with John Nelson Darby. Until recently Dispensationalism was represented by two major schools in the U. S. A.: Moody Bible Institute (Chicago) and Dallas Theological Seminary.

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 03:43:20 PM »

It has its roots in bad 1980s televangelism. People sat home and watched any old preachers rant and rave about the end of the world. It probably appealed to many people because they would be the ones who didn't know about, or had been taught not to believe in, the history of the early Church. They had been told by Protestant churches not to trust what the Orthodox and Roman Catholics had to say about Church history. The easy-to-digest pop culture version of history became the thing that filled in the gaps. I guess a tacky thriller like the awful Left Behind books made them think they were getting the 'secret truth.' Which is not true, of course, but some people want to believe something different. That's all.
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 03:54:03 PM »

www.larknews.com/archives/401

Quote
OTTAWA — The Rapture occurred last Tuesday at 9:43 a.m. Greenwich Mean Time and took both people on the planet whose theology was exactly correct.  Dan Wilson of Ottawa, Canada, was snatched away while sleeping.  “He spent years refining his eschatological scheme,” says his wife. “Just last week he told me he had it all right, but I still disagreed with him on a minor point. I regret that now.”  Rejna Thanawalla of New Delhi, India, also experienced the Rapture, say friends.  “She knew exactly what the books of Revelation and Daniel meant,” they say. “Sadly, none of us listened to her.”  In a surprise, Tim LaHaye says he was “slightly wrong on the subject of the Beast,” and was left behind. Other prophecy experts say they, too, botched minor points in their end times charts.  “Looks like we’ll have to stay and wait this out,” said one disappointed pastor.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 03:54:43 PM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 06:06:33 PM »

Ask them, if they are pre-trib or mid-trib, why believers are killed DURING the tribulation and not raptured ? It CLEARLY says that the dead in Christ rise first and then those that are still alive will be changed...
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 09:08:32 AM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.
Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Is God's word to be trusted? He says it is:
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I have not watched the 'Left Behind' material. If it teaches that there are 3 Anti Christs; Napoleon, Hitler and one yet to come then this is not scriptural. All sorts of false doctrine are preached in all sorts of places. Some false doctrine is new, some old. The length of time any teaching has been around or who or how many people believe it does not make it true. What does God's word have to say on the issue? I commend God's word to both yourself and your parents.
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2013, 09:31:02 AM »

It has its roots in bad 1980s televangelism. People sat home and watched any old preachers rant and rave about the end of the world. It probably appealed to many people because they would be the ones who didn't know about, or had been taught not to believe in, the history of the early Church. They had been told by Protestant churches not to trust what the Orthodox and Roman Catholics had to say about Church history. The easy-to-digest pop culture version of history became the thing that filled in the gaps. I guess a tacky thriller like the awful Left Behind books made them think they were getting the 'secret truth.' Which is not true, of course, but some people want to believe something different. That's all.
It's roots are in the bible.[Refer 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52] I would advise against just:
believing anything I am 'told' to believe by Protestant, Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches whether the preacher is old or young or indeed whether they are ranting and raving or calm in their delivery of the message. We are to test whether what is preached concurs with God's word. If it does not, then it is false teaching.
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 10:04:12 AM »

If you discuss the topic with such Christians be very clear that you believe in the second coming of Christ.  Those that are really into dispensationalism/rapture theology seem to hold it as dogma.  You might as well tell them you don't believe that Christ rose from the dead.  So preface the conversation with the assurance that you believe Christ will return.  I also wouldn't spend too much time discussing the subject. 
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 10:32:01 AM »

rachel, first, welcome to the board.  That some will be alive (in the body) when Christ returns in glory is a given.  That the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit is also.  Of course, they must be rightly discerned.  Therein lies the problem. It is the idea of what many Protestants refer to as a "rapture" with some being "left behind", thus clearly teaching 3 comings of Christ that is the issue.  I spent 3 years of my life in a full-time study of the rapture as it is taught in many evangelical/protestant churches.  I've read nearly every word that E.W. Bullinger ever wrote.  (And, if you don't recognize his name, you have not studied that which you follow.)  When it was all said and done and while I was still a Protestant, it was clear that the coined-word "rapture" didn't exist and is a developed teaching of man, entering into the scripture with a pre-supposed idea, searching for scriptures to support it, and re-inventing teachings that many centuries prior had been declared foreign and heretical.  The scriptures you quote and the others you didn't mention do not support it in any way, shape or form when either placed back into their proper context.  I had refrained from posting on this thread because I recognize the time and commitment that is required to refute the "rapture" in a point-by-point manner.  Honestly, if I am not able to make that commitment, then I should remain silent.  There are SO many fundamental misinterpretations that it's nearly overwhelming but, at the end of the long process, popular protestant teachings fall like a house of cards.  THIS is how I became Orthodox after 50 years of being protestant.  Once I pulled on the thread of the "rapture," the entire fabric of their teachings came loose and fell to the floor.  If truth matters to you more than being "right"...if your faith in God is strong enough to allow you to be shaken to the core about things that you have always assumed were true and correct...if you prefer cohesion to confusion...invest the time and find the courage to explore what the Orthodox Church teaches about "end times" and Israel.
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 11:30:06 AM »

When I told my wife that Orthodoxy doesn't teach the rapture theology stuff, she thought that I meant that there was no second coming. So yeah, for some this a sensitive assumption.
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 11:44:10 AM »

the rapture IS scriptural, but not in the way many evangelicals want to believe...it occurs at Yeshua's second coming.  It says..last great trumpet. From a Judaic perspective, this would be the last shofar blast during Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets.  
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 12:24:47 PM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rachel,

Your verses refer to the Resurrection at the end of the Ages.

The American "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" doctrine that we are referring to argues this: That before the end of the world, Christ will come partway down from heaven, lift all true believers up to heaven, and then return to hide in heaven for a while, as, on earth, the heathens kill each other off and a few other less-than-true believers get a second chance.
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2013, 02:35:08 PM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:

No it's not

Quote
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is a reference to the resurrection of the dead which will occur at Christ's second coming.

Quote
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That's about the resurrection of the dead; nothing about this silly rapture thing.

Quote
Is God's word to be trusted?

Jesus is the Word of God; anyone who says otherwise is a Protestant with a really bad understanding of the Greek logos.

Quote
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

That's a circular argument. But, that's not the point. I'm not denying that the scriptures are good for reproof and all that junk.

Quote
The length of time any teaching has been around or who or how many people believe it does not make it true.

Yes it does. If it's new then it is false because Christ already revealed the truth to us. If the Apostles didn't believe it or teach anything related to it, then it is false.
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2013, 02:37:48 PM »

It's roots are in the bible.[Refer 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52]

Not necessarily. The thing is, the only reason people find "roots" for the rapture in the Bible is because they go into reading the Bible assuming that the rapture is already true, thus, it has a placebo affect of them finding "evidence" for a proposition they already assume is true. And oftentimes, this "evidence" is taken out of context and twisted.

Quote
believing anything I am 'told' to believe by Protestant, Orthodox or Roman Catholic churches whether the preacher is old or young or indeed whether they are ranting and raving or calm in their delivery of the message. We are to test whether what is preached concurs with God's word. If it does not, then it is false teaching.

You trust your own judgment over God's Church, likewise, the Bible is not God's "word". Normally I'd go into more detail, but, I'm kinda lazy in my apologetics this morning.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:38:35 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2013, 06:17:38 AM »

rachel, first, welcome to the board.  That some will be alive (in the body) when Christ returns in glory is a given.  That the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit is also.  Of course, they must be rightly discerned.  Therein lies the problem. It is the idea of what many Protestants refer to as a "rapture" with some being "left behind", thus clearly teaching 3 comings of Christ that is the issue.  I spent 3 years of my life in a full-time study of the rapture as it is taught in many evangelical/protestant churches.  I've read nearly every word that E.W. Bullinger ever wrote.  (And, if you don't recognize his name, you have not studied that which you follow.)  When it was all said and done and while I was still a Protestant, it was clear that the coined-word "rapture" didn't exist and is a developed teaching of man, entering into the scripture with a pre-supposed idea, searching for scriptures to support it, and re-inventing teachings that many centuries prior had been declared foreign and heretical.  The scriptures you quote and the others you didn't mention do not support it in any way, shape or form when either placed back into their proper context.  I had refrained from posting on this thread because I recognize the time and commitment that is required to refute the "rapture" in a point-by-point manner.  Honestly, if I am not able to make that commitment, then I should remain silent.  There are SO many fundamental misinterpretations that it's nearly overwhelming but, at the end of the long process, popular protestant teachings fall like a house of cards.  THIS is how I became Orthodox after 50 years of being protestant.  Once I pulled on the thread of the "rapture," the entire fabric of their teachings came loose and fell to the floor.  If truth matters to you more than being "right"...if your faith in God is strong enough to allow you to be shaken to the core about things that you have always assumed were true and correct...if you prefer cohesion to confusion...invest the time and find the courage to explore what the Orthodox Church teaches about "end times" and Israel.
Thank you so much for your welcome. "Leap of faith" is an interesting name. It suggests things about your approach to these things. Regarding the correct discernment of scriptural truth, let us see if we can agree on fundamental principles. One role of the Spirit is to "lead us into all truth". So, as I think you imply, as long as we are "Berean" in our approach and open to his leading, we can be confident that we will ultimately arrive at the truth. The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks. Having said that we have to ensure that our conclusions are always subject to God's revelation of course but the implication of that is that we would always expect our exegesis to be consistent with the totality of God's word AND to be rational. This is because we believe that the Bible is God's communication to Man and INTENDED by him to be comprehensible. Sorry, that is a rather long-winded introduction to an answer but I hope it may avoid misunderstanding.

Now, 'Rapture' is a non-Biblical word of course and it has probably acquired some baggage. I'm ok with its use as a 'convenience' term as long as the concept under discussion is common to all participants, so my first point in reply is to question your statement that it involves 'three comings of Christ'. Firstly, if this were true, would it matter so long as we can establish that it is scriptural? Secondly; it rather depends what you mean by 'comings'. Nowhere does Thessalonians tell us that Christ returns to earth at the Rapture; in fact, it quite explicitly tells us the opposite! So those who hold to the rapture, don't believe in three comings of Christ.

Secondly you refer to Bullinger - can we keep from other men's opinions for the present? Your third point is that you hold the rapture to be a construct of Man. Can we establish that, in this discussion at least, this  remains to be seen. Fourthly, you said that the teaching had been declared "foreign and heretical" many centuries earlier but you omit to say by whom and on what scriptural basis. Perhaps it would be good if you filled in these gaps?

It is a shame that you feel you can't make the commitment to a full discussion since if I understand you correctly, it was a major factor in turning you to Orthodoxy and so is clearly not insignificant! Anyway, I trust that you will find time to tug vigorously at a thread and see if the pack of cards really does collapse!

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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2013, 06:25:07 AM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rachel,

Your verses refer to the Resurrection at the end of the Ages.

The American "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" doctrine that we are referring to argues this: That before the end of the world, Christ will come partway down from heaven, lift all true believers up to heaven, and then return to hide in heaven for a while, as, on earth, the heathens kill each other off and a few other less-than-true believers get a second chance.


Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2013, 07:16:47 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2013, 07:26:13 AM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:

No it's not

The term is not. Please establish from scripture that the event is not.

Quote
Quote
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is a reference to the resurrection of the dead which will occur at Christ's second coming.

Please establish this from scripture

Quote
Quote
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That's about the resurrection of the dead; nothing about this silly rapture thing.

It is about resurrection indeed - at the rapture the dead in Christ will be raised first.

Quote
Quote
Is God's word to be trusted?

Jesus is the Word of God; anyone who says otherwise is a Protestant with a really bad understanding of the Greek logos.

Scripture tells us that it is ALL "SPIRIT=BREATHED" - this suggests that both are true

Quote
Quote
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

That's a circular argument. But, that's not the point. I'm not denying that the scriptures are good for reproof and all that junk.

What you refer to as "junk" is a quote from scripture. Please explain why the quote is "circular argument"

Quote
Quote
The length of time any teaching has been around or who or how many people believe it does not make it true.

Yes it does. If it's new then it is false because Christ already revealed the truth to us. If the Apostles didn't believe it or teach anything related to it, then it is false.

Not so. There are truths in scripture the implications of which are not part of the Spirit's current revelation. I refer you to Daniel for example. He was given the inter-testamental prophecies but their meaning was not revealed at the time. 
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2013, 07:54:55 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.

Thank you for that. This is useful information but 'Leap of Faith' has just told me that I must be prepared to set aside my fixed ideas and have the courage to change. Is this just to be true of me or everyone?

So does the Orthodox Church tell us we must set aside our minds and, if so, why are we debating?

When you say, "God cannot be rationalised", I think I need to know what you mean. If you mean there is a point to which our concepts and understanding will not stretch in relation to God, this is clearly true because we are finite and he is infinite. If, on the other hand, you mean that God communicates with his creation in absurdities, then I would take this as an insult to him! Also, my understanding would be that you would disagree with other things which I've written. For example, there would seem to be no reason why you would expect the propositions of scripture to be consistent or even coherent. At this point discussion ceases because everyone is free to claim that scripture means whatever he wants it to mean. When God says, "come let us reason together......", is your understanding that he anticipated a 'nonsense' conversation?   
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2013, 08:43:33 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.

Thank you for that. This is useful information but 'Leap of Faith' has just told me that I must be prepared to set aside my fixed ideas and have the courage to change. Is this just to be true of me or everyone?

So does the Orthodox Church tell us we must set aside our minds and, if so, why are we debating?

When you say, "God cannot be rationalised", I think I need to know what you mean. If you mean there is a point to which our concepts and understanding will not stretch in relation to God, this is clearly true because we are finite and he is infinite. If, on the other hand, you mean that God communicates with his creation in absurdities, then I would take this as an insult to him! Also, my understanding would be that you would disagree with other things which I've written. For example, there would seem to be no reason why you would expect the propositions of scripture to be consistent or even coherent. At this point discussion ceases because everyone is free to claim that scripture means whatever he wants it to mean. When God says, "come let us reason together......", is your understanding that he anticipated a 'nonsense' conversation?    

It means that God is beyond human reason. Orthodoxy teaches that man, because of the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ, has been given the possibility to achieve Theosis, Union with God, through his Divine Energies, that is, Gods Grace. This, however, doesn't mean that we will become one with God as the pantheists says. God is still apart from creation and, as you said yourself, infinite. This doesn't mean that we should not study the scriptures for answers, but that it makes no sense to try and understand God through rationality. Orthodox christians believe that Christ established the Church as the Ark of Salvation, the Bride of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2013, 09:58:12 AM »

Quote
The second point I would make is that our rationality is a reflection of the way God thinks.

The Orthodox Church rejects this idea. God cannot be rationalized.

Thank you for that. This is useful information but 'Leap of Faith' has just told me that I must be prepared to set aside my fixed ideas and have the courage to change. Is this just to be true of me or everyone?

So does the Orthodox Church tell us we must set aside our minds and, if so, why are we debating?

When you say, "God cannot be rationalised", I think I need to know what you mean. If you mean there is a point to which our concepts and understanding will not stretch in relation to God, this is clearly true because we are finite and he is infinite. If, on the other hand, you mean that God communicates with his creation in absurdities, then I would take this as an insult to him! Also, my understanding would be that you would disagree with other things which I've written. For example, there would seem to be no reason why you would expect the propositions of scripture to be consistent or even coherent. At this point discussion ceases because everyone is free to claim that scripture means whatever he wants it to mean. When God says, "come let us reason together......", is your understanding that he anticipated a 'nonsense' conversation?    

It means that God is beyond human reason.
Well he obviously wants us to understand something of himself. Why do you think he says, "come let us reason together...." if this is an impossibility and he is completely beyond human reason. Why reveal himself to us at all if we cannot understand? Do you believe that the bible is intended to communicate true, reasonable propositions?
 
Quote
Orthodoxy teaches that man, because of the incarnation and sacrifice of Christ, has been given the possibility to achieve Theosis, Union with God, through his Divine Energies, that is, Gods Grace.
Yes, by God's grace we are saved through faith in his finished work upon the cross.

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This, however, doesn't mean that we will become one with God as the pantheists says. God is still apart from creation and, as you said yourself, infinite.
Agreed. Of course pantheists don't generally believe in a personal God.
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This doesn't mean that we should not study the scriptures for answers, but that it makes no sense to try and understand God through rationality.
How are we to find answers if they are not understandable? God is obviously not limited in what he is able to do but that does not make his acts irrational. Do you mean that the answers that we find would be absurd?
Mark 12:30
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
God is not expecting us to discard rational thought.
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Orthodox christians believe that Christ established the Church as the Ark of Salvation, the Bride of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.
Well Christ is responsible for our salvation through his death and resurrection. All who accept his gift of salvation are the 'bride of Christ.'
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2013, 10:37:08 AM »

Quote
Well he obviously wants us to understand something of himself. Why do you think he says, "come let us reason together...." if this is an impossibility and he is completely beyond human reason. Why reveal himself to us at all if we cannot understand?

We can understand what God reveals to us, by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, but not the fullness, the essence of God.

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Do you believe that the bible is intended to communicate true, reasonable propositions?
 

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.The Bible presupposes the faith of the reader. It is a faith document—not science, philosophy, history, archaeology, literature, ideology, or biography. Because of its origins and usage in the community of faith, it does not attempt to establish its own authenticity or to prove its basic assumptions. It was not intended as a logical proof for the existence of God or for the reality of that to which it attests
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture

Quote
How are we to find answers if they are not understandable? God is obviously not limited in what he is able to do but that does not make his acts irrational. Do you mean that the answers that we find would be absurd?
Mark 12:30
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
God is not expecting us to discard rational thought.

Of course we should not discard rational thought, but human reason and divine reason is different.

Quote
Well Christ is responsible for our salvation through his death and resurrection. All who accept his gift of salvation are the 'bride of Christ.'
Many early heretics also accepted the Gift of Salvation, but that didn't stop the Church from excommunicate them.

As to the original topic, the Orthodox Church doesn't accept the teachings about the rapture, as presented by some modern protestant denominations. The Holy scriptures clearly states, that christians will have to go through tribulations before the Second Coming of Christ.
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2013, 04:51:36 PM »

Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

"Behold, the Lord comes with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

"Amen, Amen, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

I don't have a problem with the idea that there will be an order to the Resurrection., the righteous first, and then the wicked. But this is subsequent and not separated by a "tribulation". The problem is with the idea that those who are raised to life will be raised before the "tribulation", and the idea that the resurrected go to live in a place called heaven, away from earth. This is false.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that claims the righteous will be resurrected before the "tribulation", and will live in a far off place called heaven with Christ for a while before coming back to earth. Christ came to remake the world, not to escape it.

When the righteous dead arise and go to meet Christ in the clouds, it is to be part of his victory procession to earth, not to return to the clouds with him to live in the clouds.

The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine was invented in America. It is less than 300 years old. It is a doctrine invented by men late in the game. You can read it back into the Scriptures, but it's a  sick, escapist and unchristian understanding that was unknown to the early Christians.
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2013, 04:53:24 PM »

The term is not. Please establish from scripture that the event is not.

Show from scripture where people will magically disappear before the second coming. Nowhere in the scripture suggests this. We only see reference to the resurrection of the dead which will occur at the second coming. All of the scriptures you've referenced were taken out of context and/or isolated in such a way to support a presupposed premise.

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Please establish this from scripture

I just did. And I can back it with years of patristics and Church tradition. Sola Scriptura is unscriptural, btw. Establish from scripture that this refers to the "rapture"

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It is about resurrection indeed - at the rapture the dead in Christ will be raised first.

Only you haven't established that there will be a "rapture"  Wink

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Scripture tells us that it is ALL "SPIRIT=BREATHED" - this suggests that both are true

No it doesn't. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ (well, they are technically united in a mystical, trinitarian way, but you get the idea), therefore, it is not the Word. Therefore, the scriptures--even if they have the Holy Spirit breathed into them--are not the Word.

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Please explain why the quote is "circular argument

Using scripture to defend scripture is circular. Being Orthodox, we can use the Church's authority and the testimony of the martyrs and Saints to establish the scripture's authority.

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Not so. There are truths in scripture the implications of which are not part of the Spirit's current revelation. I refer you to Daniel for example. He was given the inter-testamental prophecies but their meaning was not revealed at the time.

Jesus is the final revelation; the center of the universe and history as we know it. There is nothing more to be revealed to humanity except for the second coming. This is why you shouldn't accept any new doctrine that can't be found in the Church--which, includes the scriptures. In the words of St. Paul, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8-9). I think I'll take the words of the Apostle himself over you  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2013, 10:06:49 PM »

I have to say, of all of the heresies, Dispensationalism HAS to be the most amusing...
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2013, 11:21:57 PM »

the rapture IS scriptural, but not in the way many evangelicals want to believe...it occurs at Yeshua's second coming.  It says..last great trumpet. From a Judaic perspective, this would be the last shofar blast during Yom Teruah, the Feast of Trumpets. 

Please keep these gems coming, in the name of HaShem!
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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2013, 01:16:36 AM »

Please keep these gems coming, in the name of HaShem!
You have literally said: "in the name of TheName."
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2013, 01:30:14 AM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rachel,

Your verses refer to the Resurrection at the end of the Ages.

The American "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" doctrine that we are referring to argues this: That before the end of the world, Christ will come partway down from heaven, lift all true believers up to heaven, and then return to hide in heaven for a while, as, on earth, the heathens kill each other off and a few other less-than-true believers get a second chance.


Nicholas, please establish from scripture that the verses I have quoted refer to the Second Advent. Thanks
May I ask, if the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 must be understood as a "pre-trib rapture trumpet," in what sense is it  really "last" if there are seven trumpets very soon to follow within the following seven years during the tribulation? (e.g. Revelation 11:15/"seventh trumpet"/final judgment). The usual "rationalizing" responses to such questions often pressed very hard by proponents of competing "eschatological systems" -to my mind at least- suggest Dispensationalism, rather than reflecting "the plain, undeniable literal meaning of the Bible" is just another systematic extrapolation coupled with idiosyncratic harmonization.

I have to say, of all of the heresies, Dispensationalism HAS to be the most amusing...
Except insofar as the likes of L. S. Chaefer, C. C. Ryrie, et al remove the teaching of Christ from the "church age." important elements of our Lord's message on this view were/are for Israel only; the church age is a "mystery parenthesis" (because not predicted, according to these authors, in the OT) after the culmination of which (with the "rapture") major teachings of Christ to the Jews will again become relevant -to Jews living during the tribulation period. This is whence derive notions like the Sermon on the Mount having nothing whatsoever to do with the church age -we don't need to concern ourselves with it! (contrast the Great Commission's exhortation to teach Gentiles *all things I commanded you* -not "some of the things I commanded you"). Frankly I suspect the devil is behind such developments is more credible than "plain meaning." If the meaning is so "plain," why should we suppose the majority of professing Christian biblical scholars think Dispensationalism is nonsense?

Lewis Sperry Chaefer, who only had a high school education, famously insisted on many absurd systematic divisions (one critique was aptly titled Is the Bible a Jigsaw Puzzle?)e.g. the kingdom of heaven being a distinct entity from the kingdom of God (despite the well known fact that Matthew uses this phrase globally in the very same sayings of Christ where Mark has kingdom of God, because of their respective audiences according to most interpreters). There are different new covenants for the church, and for Israel. There are some teachings of Jesus applicable for this age and others only for the millennial age. Entire books of the New Testament are said by certain authors to apply only to the Jews. The "second" coming becomes a sort of "third" return.

in all honesty, I cannot help regarding Dispensationalism as  the most absurd of the mutually exclusive systematic theologies stemming from the Reformation all claiming to present the "plain teaching of scripture," and all represented by proponents who present "scholarly systematic tomes" in the hermeneutical tradition of medieval humanism (grammatical/historical exegesis as an autonomous method; one hardly needs such notions as spiritual illumination of scripture and the hiddenness of its truths to those without eyes to see, which is why writers such as Barth and Bonhoeffer seemed so "radical" to Dispensational fundamentalists. Orthodoxy, of course, has always maintained this, e.g. St. Ephrem the Syrian, as also does Holy Scripture).

As it happens, one of our local Orthodox priests at one time received his first PhD from Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the two most important schools teaching the rapture paradigm; he ultimately came to regard it as absurd as do I.
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2013, 03:32:02 PM »

So when exactly did this whole dispensationalist "the-Rapture-is-coming!" doomsday type Christianity become so popular in America? And what is the best way to deal with them? I find that my parents are very brainwashed by this heresy--and have been for a few years--ever since they watched Left Behind in the early 2000s. They believe that odd thing about there being "3 Anti-Christs" the first being Napolean, second Adolf Hitler (which is odd, since Stalin was 10x worse), and third one yet to come. What's the best way to deal with this type of Christian? I told them I don't believe in the whole "three anti-Christs thing" because it has no roots in the Bible or any Christian tradition, but comes from Nostradamus, who was an occultist weirdo probably influenced by demons, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

There were rumors on the OBOB site of christianforums.com that the Jesuits invented this entire "Rapture-is-coming doomsday type Christianity" as a spoof to see if Protestants would buy it.

Anyway, my mother and the rest of my family left the Roman Catholic Church and now believe in the Rapture. They have all read the Left Behind series too. I guess it is a comforting teaching. They do not want to experience the Tribulation, but want to witness it in the clouds.

Yet, Revelation does not teach the Rapture, but encourages us to persevere in the faith.
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2013, 03:40:19 PM »

Quote
I guess it is a comforting teaching.

I honestly can't see how that teaching could be considered comforting. I believed in it for a (very) short period of time and I was getting all paranoid and anxious. It didn't help that National Geographic Channel, at the same time, was showing an easter-themed documentary about it.
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2013, 06:48:18 PM »

Quote
that begs the question whether the church was RIGHT to excommunicate them - if it wasn't, it is meaningless. The visible Church does indeed exist today.

When they preached something that was contrary to the teachings of the Church, yes. The Apostles did this.

Concerning the rest. What most people in this thread is criticising, is the belief that the righteous will be taken away before the tribulation. As far as I can see, this is not what you believe. What we are discussing, I think, is more the word rapture.
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 07:19:51 PM »

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that begs the question whether the church was RIGHT to excommunicate them - if it wasn't, it is meaningless. The visible Church does indeed exist today.

When they preached something that was contrary to the teachings of the Church, yes. The Apostles did this.

well Paul did and urged it where it was contrary to the GOSPEL

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Concerning the rest. What most people in this thread is criticising, is the belief that the righteous will be taken away before the tribulation. As far as I can see, this is not what you believe.

well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.
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What we are discussing, I think, is more the word rapture.
I don't think this is a discussion of semantics.
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2013, 07:26:26 PM »


well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.


Which scripture?
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« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2013, 07:28:53 PM »

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well Paul did and urged it where it was contrary to the GOSPEL

The Gospel and the teachings of the Church is the same thing.

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[well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.

First, I haven't seen you do that, and secondly, that idea is heretical. I repeat, the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the Church, not now, not ever.

Dear Rachel,

There are now two of us requesting what scripture proof do you have that the Church must be removed before the AntiChrist presides.
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2013, 07:36:38 PM »

One of the things that bothers me so much about Rapture theories is that there are so many of them. Depending on what preacher you listen to, and what church you go to, and who talks to you about any given passage in the Scriptures, you may come up with many different things. Who can be sure of anything? I don't want to be scared of every daily event and wonder if this is going to be the one that means the wild, violent, Tim LaHaye-imagined end is here. God is not the author of confusion. Instead, what I've learned while going to an Orthodox Church is to repent and pray every day. Yes, one day there will be an end. But, you can confront it with fear or you can confront it with hope. I choose the latter.
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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2013, 08:08:57 PM »

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well Paul did and urged it where it was contrary to the GOSPEL

The Gospel and the teachings of the Church is the same thing.

Quote
[well I've pointed out that scripture states that the Antichrist cannot rise until the Church is removed and that the Antichrist presides over the Tribulation.

First, I haven't seen you do that, and secondly, that idea is heretical. I repeat, the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against the Church, not now, not ever.

Dear Rachel,

There are now two of us requesting what scripture proof do you have that the Church must be removed before the AntiChrist presides.

I third that,

Show us scriptural proof that the Church must be removed before the coming of the anti-Christ. In other words, proof of this "rapture". All of the Scriptures you have listed have merely been references to the second coming of Christ--they say nothing about a "rapture." So far you've done nothing to defend your rapture position other than say "prove to me scripturally that these passages refer to the second advent." That's a cop-out. YOU are making the claim. Show us that they refer to the rapture before the anti-Christ.
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2013, 08:22:45 PM »

Dear rachel,

How would you respond to Jesus' Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2013, 08:31:56 PM »

Yes, one day there will be an end. But, you can confront it with fear or you can confront it with hope. I choose the latter.

So true!

I don't think they see it that way though.
I think they want to be "raptured", it's their goal in life. I'm not sure how that can even sound right, but to them it's everything. Or so it seems.

I'm trying to follow what Rachel is talking about, but all I got out of all this was a ....headache.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2013, 08:36:24 PM »

My problem with this whole rapture thing is that it is not mentioned once by any of the Apostles. It is not taught by the Apostles. It is not mentioned by the disciples of the Apostles, nor their disciples, nor any of their disciples. The Early Church never mentioned it, never taught it. After the Great Schism the rapture is not taught in either the East or the West. After the Protestant Reformation the rapture is not taught until the late 1800's when it is first mentioned. Then the rapture really doesn't take off as dogma until the 1900's.

So if the Bible really does teach the Pre-Trib rapture why did no church teach it until 1800 years after Christ?

We have infant baptism, praying to the Saints, use of icons, works and faith for salvation, Tradition and Scripture as our doctrinal sources, deacons, priests, bishops, and finally the Church being the pillar of truth (just to name a few) all being taught from the time of the Apostles to now. Not once was the rapture mentioned.


Interpreting Scripture outside of the Church is folly; look at all of the thousands of Protestant denominations (of which there are over 25,000!). Most of these claim to be Bible believing, and claim to teach directly from the Bible. BUT each one of these thousands of denominations teach different things! Yet they all claim to interpret by the Holy Spirit. This does not sound like the work of God, for God does not cause confusion. So why would I trust any of them over the one Church that can actually lay claim to teaching the Bible because they made the Bible? Why would I deviate from the Church that goes back from now until the Apostles, and to Christ?
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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2013, 09:22:53 PM »

A fundamental point of separation between those who have accepted the rapture and those who have remained faithful to the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is how "end times/last days" are understood, as well as the persecution, trials and tribulation that are promised by Christ to occur during this period.  As I stumble through, I ask that my Orthodox brethren will be gentle with me if my word choices aren't always the best.  At Pentecost, upon the descent of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of languages that were not the natural languages of the apostles, Peter provided a clear explanation.  "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days(emphasis mine), says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men will see visions..." (Acts 2: 14-17 NKJV)  He goes on to describe more, using very 'apocalyptic' terms, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.  The point is that we believe exactly what Peter is clearly stating, that the "end times"...the "last days"...began at that moment and that we have been living in the "last days" ever since and we will continue to live in it until Christ returns.  The history of the persecution of the Orthodox Church defends this as being the correct understanding.  Of course, this history is greatly unknown by many who belong to America's "unique" brand of Christianity.  When the saints and martyrs were discarded, the suffering went along with it and a blind eye turned to what has happened even in my own lifetime and is happening as I type.

Protestants see persecution and tribulation as being some yet future point, 7 earthly years in endurance.  They just can't figure out when or if they'll be around for it.  Much of their understanding of scripture is earth-bound.  Another example would be their understanding of "Israel" as being some earthly nation.  Rather than understanding that it is the Church and those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed, they have adhered this to some random nation that America must blindly follow. The Orthodox Church understands this number (7) not in earthly terms, but in spiritual terms...fullness, completion...that began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns in glory. In other words, the point of separation between "them" and "us" begins long before "the rapture."  It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

And, because I tend to get too wordy, I'll leave it at that.
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2013, 10:48:24 PM »

A last thought and I shall also bow out of this thread.  Rapture-Left Behind-darling, Tim LaHaye, continues to add and develop this "teaching."  He now also teaches that the Jews will rebuild their temple and return to full blood animal sacrifices for atonement of their sins...and that this is a good thing.  One of his scriptural resources for this claim comes from our dear Psalm 50 (51). How is this anything short of blasphemy?  It is anti-christ ("instead of Christ") in nature.  Scary stuff.  Very scary stuff to teach that Christ's incarnation, passion, glorification and resurrection was not adequate or complete.  

eta:  I meant to include these links in an earlier post and, apparently, saw something shiny and forgot.  I tend to see shiny things.  My apologies.

http://www.antiochian.org/Orthodox_Church_Who_What_Where_Why/Who_Is_The_New_Israel.htm

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/bible-vs-modern-israel.html
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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2013, 01:07:38 AM »

A fundamental point of separation between those who have accepted the rapture and those who have remained faithful to the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is how "end times/last days" are understood, as well as the persecution, trials and tribulation that are promised by Christ to occur during this period.  As I stumble through, I ask that my Orthodox brethren will be gentle with me if my word choices aren't always the best.  At Pentecost, upon the descent of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of languages that were not the natural languages of the apostles, Peter provided a clear explanation.  "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days(emphasis mine), says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men will see visions..." (Acts 2: 14-17 NKJV)  He goes on to describe more, using very 'apocalyptic' terms, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.  The point is that we believe exactly what Peter is clearly stating, that the "end times"...the "last days"...began at that moment and that we have been living in the "last days" ever since and we will continue to live in it until Christ returns.  The history of the persecution of the Orthodox Church defends this as being the correct understanding.  Of course, this history is greatly unknown by many who belong to America's "unique" brand of Christianity.  When the saints and martyrs were discarded, the suffering went along with it and a blind eye turned to what has happened even in my own lifetime and is happening as I type.

Protestants see persecution and tribulation as being some yet future point, 7 earthly years in endurance.  They just can't figure out when or if they'll be around for it.  Much of their understanding of scripture is earth-bound.  Another example would be their understanding of "Israel" as being some earthly nation.  Rather than understanding that it is the Church and those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed, they have adhered this to some random nation that America must blindly follow. The Orthodox Church understands this number (7) not in earthly terms, but in spiritual terms...fullness, completion...that began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns in glory. In other words, the point of separation between "them" and "us" begins long before "the rapture."  It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

And, because I tend to get too wordy, I'll leave it at that.

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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »

A fundamental point of separation between those who have accepted the rapture and those who have remained faithful to the "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) is how "end times/last days" are understood, as well as the persecution, trials and tribulation that are promised by Christ to occur during this period.  As I stumble through, I ask that my Orthodox brethren will be gentle with me if my word choices aren't always the best.  At Pentecost, upon the descent of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of languages that were not the natural languages of the apostles, Peter provided a clear explanation.  "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days(emphasis mine), says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men will see visions..." (Acts 2: 14-17 NKJV)  He goes on to describe more, using very 'apocalyptic' terms, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that.  The point is that we believe exactly what Peter is clearly stating, that the "end times"...the "last days"...began at that moment and that we have been living in the "last days" ever since and we will continue to live in it until Christ returns.  The history of the persecution of the Orthodox Church defends this as being the correct understanding.  Of course, this history is greatly unknown by many who belong to America's "unique" brand of Christianity.  When the saints and martyrs were discarded, the suffering went along with it and a blind eye turned to what has happened even in my own lifetime and is happening as I type.

  you say that there is a fundamental difference in our eschatological understanding. In my experience, this is correct. You then go on to cite Peter's quotation of Joel and his designation of, 'the last days'. I have the impression that you intended this to be illustrative of our difference but it isn't. I don't resile for one moment from Peter's expressed view.

I do however fail to see how persecution of the Orthodox Church can logically form 'confirmation' of  this scripture. Christians of many denominations are persecuted all over the world. 'The last days' is not synonymous with the 'tribulation' if that was what you were intending to imply.

Quote
Protestants see persecution and tribulation as being some yet future point,

they see the tribulation as a distinct future event  for excellent scriptural reasons which, if enough people are interested, I will endeavour to explain. Most [hopefully] are well aware off the continuing persecution of the Body of Christ.
 
Quote
7 earthly years in endurance.  They just can't figure out when or if they'll be around for it.

well, Jesus himself said, "it  is not given to you to know the time, watch the signs". Those who didn't were unwise virgins!
Quote
 Much of their understanding of scripture is earth-bound.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. The Bible makes it clear that we are dealing with events on Earth as well as in Heaven when studying eschatology.

 
Quote
 Another example would be their understanding of "Israel" as being some earthly nation.

This  risks derailing the thread more than is already the case but, as a matter of simple observation, Israel is indeed a nation, re-established by a miracle as prophesied after a diaspora of 2000 years.

Quote
 Rather than understanding that it is the Church and those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed,

this is scriptural - I'm not aware that it has been rescinded.

Quote
they have adhered this to some random nation that America must blindly follow.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. God says he will deal with the nations who conspired to "divide my land". Your country and mine are heavily engaged in this to the detriment of both.

Quote
The Orthodox Church understands this number (7) not in earthly terms, but in spiritual terms...fullness, completion...that began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ returns in glory. In other words, the point of separation between "them" and "us" begins long before "the rapture."

I don't understand why you consider Peter's speech at Pentecost a "point of departure" between us. In fact in delineating the commencement of 'the last days', Peter is making a 'dispensational' statement!

 
Quote
 It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

the presupposition behind this statement is that Darby, Schofield et al were developing a human construct rather than giving expression to an observation.. Examination of the issues suggests that the latter is actually the case.

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« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2013, 02:38:48 PM »



 
Quote
It begins nearly 2,000 years ago and not a couple of hundred years ago when Darby showed up with his ideas.

the presupposition behind this statement is that Darby, Schofield et al were developing a human construct rather than giving expression to an observation.. Examination of the issues suggests that the latter is actually the case.



Quote
As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in the Plymouth Brethren movement in the 1830s of Ireland and England, and in the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882). The original concept came from Darby's interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:15, "...rightly dividing the word of truth".
From Wikipedia

Quote
John Nelson Darby is recognized as the father of dispensationalism,[1]:10,293 later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820–1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. Mackintosh popularized Darby more than any other Brethren author.
ibid

And also

Quote
As there was no Christian teaching of a "rapture" before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s, he is sometimes credited with originating the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove his bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation.
ibid


I believe those show that Darby et al were developing a human construct. Examinations of the issue show this to be the case, unless one presupposes that the rapture is scriptural when "examining."
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« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

24     Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25     Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26     And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)


The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6



Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27     And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the  Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.
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« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2013, 03:27:19 PM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

24     Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25     Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26     And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)


The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6



Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27     And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the  Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago.  One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.
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« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2013, 03:32:03 PM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

24     Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25     Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26     And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)


The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6



Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27     And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the  Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

This is what I mean by Protestants delving into the occult and obsessive numerology. Either way, it's important to note that numbers in the Bible don't carry literal significance, rather, they symbolize spiritual concepts. This is an example of what I said earlier about Americans not giving enough attention to literary techniques and philology, only accepting things at face value. Also, none of what you said proves the rapture at all, it only advocates some weird Zionist conspiracy.
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« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2013, 03:43:49 PM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

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« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2013, 04:16:10 PM »

I have to say, of all of the heresies, Dispensationalism HAS to be the most amusing...

you have yet to show it heretical and have an odd sense of humour
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« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2013, 04:55:48 PM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the  Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the  paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds,  you are mistaken.


1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 08:15:32 AM »

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago.  One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.
[/quote]

Well the Angel in Daniel says to roll up the scroll until the time of the end...Daniel 12:4
So there ARE some things that come much later...don't be so arrogant.
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 08:37:00 AM »

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago.  One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.

Well the Angel in Daniel says to roll up the scroll until the time of the end...Daniel 12:4
So there ARE some things that come much later...don't be so arrogant.
[/quote]

How exactly am I being arrogant by saying that I don't trust my own private interpretation on Scripture and instead rely on thousands and millions of believers who have gone before me to help?  I don't see how taking one verse in Daniel out of context is a very solid basis for throwing out 2000 years of Church history and teaching.
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 10:27:04 AM »

It is certainly disappointing that no Christians knew how to properly interpret this until 200 years ago.  One would thing that the Holy Spirit would do a better job of making sure that Christians throughout history understood what He was trying to say.

My personal feeling is that any doctrine that shows up centuries or millenia after Christ has a distinctly cultic/Mormon feel to it.

Well the Angel in Daniel says to roll up the scroll until the time of the end...Daniel 12:4
So there ARE some things that come much later...don't be so arrogant.

How exactly am I being arrogant by saying that I don't trust my own private interpretation on Scripture and instead rely on thousands and millions of believers who have gone before me to help?  I don't see how taking one verse in Daniel out of context is a very solid basis for throwing out 2000 years of Church history and teaching.
[/quote]

How is it taken out of context? Are you saying NONE of the believers before you could be wrong? So they are all infallible? I never said that one verse was a basis of throwing out ALL 2000 years of church teaching. I am saying YOU are arrogant if YOU think that everything has alrady been done and understood when it CLEARLY states that SOME things will be closed until the endtimes...
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 11:19:03 AM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the  Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the  paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds,  you are mistaken.


1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.


“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way(2 Thess 2:7).”  This verse does not refer to the Church as “He who now restrains” but to the Orthodox empire and emperor/Tsar.  The Church has interpreted this verse in these terms from ancient times.  St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century interprets this verse in this way in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, and the greatest Orthodox saints of recent times have as well (St. John the Wonderworker, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. John of Kronstadt, etc.).  It was understood that the Roman (sometimes called “Byzantine”) Empire, which was established as an Orthodox Empire since St. Constantine the Great, was a great Christian force which restrained the spirit of antichrist.  When Constantinople fell, the legacy of the Orthodox Tzar/Emperor continued in Russia until the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917.  Prior to the martyrdom of Tzar Nicholas II (it was a martyrdom because he was killed by anti-Christian forces specifically in an attempt to destroy the influence and authority of the Church in Russian society), many saints such as St. John of Kronstadt prophesied that the Tzar would be killed and that the spirit of antichrist would spread throughout the world prior to the coming of the Antichrist himself. 

St. John of San Francisco stated in his Homily on the Sunday of the Dread Judgment:
Quote
The appearance of the Antichrist is already being prepared before his coming: “The mystery doth already work …”
First of all, the forces preparing for his coming fight against lawful monarchical rule. The holy Apostle Paul says that the Antichrist cannot appear until “the one who restraineth” is put aside. John Chrysostom explains that the “one who restraineth” refers to a lawful, pious regime. Such a power struggles with evil. “The mystery” working in the world does not want this, does not want the struggle against evil by the power of a pious ruler – quite the opposite. It wants the rule of lawlessness, and when it achieves this, nothing more will stop the appearance of the Antichrist. http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/st-john-maximovitch-the-wonderworker-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco/

Fr. Seraphim (Rose) stated:
Quote
That which restraineth the appearance in the world of Antichrist, the man of lawlessness and anarchy, the last and most powerful enemy of Christ and His Church, is - in the teaching of St. John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church - lawful authority, as represented and symbolized by the Roman Empire.  This idea was incarnated supremely in the Christian Empire: first in Byzantium, when Constantinople was the Second Rome, and then in the Orthodox Russian Empire, when Moscow was the Third Rome.  In 1917 the "Constantinian Age" came to an end, the Orthodox Empire was overthrown - and the world, beginning with Moscow, has been thrown into an age of lawlessness and atheism (and in Church life, of apostasy) such as has not yet been seen.

Tsar Nicholas II was the last representative of this ideal of lawful Christian authority, and the age of lawlessness began appropriately with his murder. http://startingontheroyalpath.blogspot.com/2011/05/tsar-martyr-nicholas.html

The monk Monk Zacharia (Liebmann), in his “The Life of Tsar Nicholas II” stated
Quote
“The Holy Apostle Paul in the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, writes: ‘The mystery of iniquity is already in action but is not fulfilled up to today, until there be taken away from the midst he who restraineth’ (II Thessalonians 2:7). Our spiritual writer, Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and others explain that by this’ he who restraineth’ one can understand the power of the Tsar.”10 The Orthodox Tsar was “the bearer of the consciousness that the Supreme authority should be obedient go God, should receive sanctification and strength from Him to follow God’s commandments. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions … The battle against him was closely bound up with the battle against God and faith.”

Looking back, and at the present, we can clearly see that since the removal of “he who restraineth” the power of Satan is no longer held back. We stand as horrified witnesses to the unleashing of evil which has occurred since 1917 in all aspects of life. The world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist in a way that was not possible before…

In the world today examples of godlessness abound — nuclear weapons, dangerous genetics experiments, pollution, wars, famines and terrible new diseases In the realm of morality, shameless excesses are committed. Millions of unborn children are slaughtered each year. Perversity has become an accepted “choice.” Drug use is killing off young people, who are listening to so-called music with satanic overtones. And one could go on.

This has happened because people have lost Jesus Christ in their hearts. There is no Christian nation, no right-believing ruler to set the tone. Divided and scattered, we are easy prey for the fallen spirit of the world. http://saintsilouan.org/2010/07/royal-martyrs/

The Church will not be removed, for  the Lord said. “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).  There will be no “Rapture of believers” aside from that which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ when believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).”  This being “caught up” immediately precedes the Great Judgment and is not separated by any period of tribulation solely for unbelievers.

As St. Andrew of Crete says in his commentary on the Apocalypse (Book of Revelations):
Quote
…[The Lord] also says through the Apostle that the saints will be caught up in the clouds to meet him, and he will come (as) a judge, as creator and master of creation, handing over to the saints to judge those who opposed the truly divine and blessed slavery, as the Apostle says, Do you not know that we will judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:3), that is, the rulers of darkness(Eph 6:12).

If you would like to understand what the Orthodox teaches concerning the so-called “Rapture”, I recommend reading the following:

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/cozby_rapture1.htm

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/04/rapture-indisputable-christian-heresy.html
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 04:01:35 PM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the  Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the  paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds,  you are mistaken.


1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.


“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way(2 Thess 2:7).”  This verse does not refer to the Church as “He who now restrains” but to the Orthodox empire and emperor/Tsar.  The Church has interpreted this verse in these terms from ancient times.

which scripture tells you this? If it's true, why hasn't the Antichrist come to power yet? The guarantee of a prophet is that his prophecy comes to pass.

 
Quote
St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century interprets this verse in this way in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, and the greatest Orthodox saints of recent times have as well (St. John the Wonderworker, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. John of Kronstadt, etc.). 

see above - I'm St Rachel by the way since all Christians are saints.

Quote
It was understood that the Roman (sometimes called “Byzantine”) Empire, which was established as an Orthodox Empire since St. Constantine the Great, was a great Christian force which restrained the spirit of antichrist.  When Constantinople fell, the legacy of the Orthodox Tzar/Emperor continued in Russia until the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917.  Prior to the martyrdom of Tzar Nicholas II (it was a martyrdom because he was killed by anti-Christian forces specifically in an attempt to destroy the influence and authority of the Church in Russian society), many saints such as St. John of Kronstadt prophesied that the Tzar would be killed and that the spirit of antichrist would spread throughout the world prior to the coming of the Antichrist himself. 

well this can;t be right because the Bible itself tells you that the spirit of antichrist was abroad and that was before the Tzar was ever HEARD of! 

Quote
St. John of San Francisco stated in his Homily on the Sunday of the Dread Judgment:
The appearance of the Antichrist is already being prepared before his coming: “The mystery doth already work …”
First of all, the forces preparing for his coming fight against lawful monarchical rule. The holy Apostle Paul says that the Antichrist cannot appear until “the one who restraineth” is put aside. John Chrysostom explains that the “one who restraineth” refers to a lawful, pious regime. Such a power struggles with evil. “The mystery” working in the world does not want this, does not want the struggle against evil by the power of a pious ruler – quite the opposite. It wants the rule of lawlessness, and when it achieves this, nothing more will stop the appearance of the Antichrist. http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/st-john-maximovitch-the-wonderworker-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco/

so is this a different version to the Tsar one or not? Everyone seems to have a different opinion. I thought you had unanimity of belief.

Quote
Fr. Seraphim (Rose) stated:
size=10pt] That which restraineth the appearance in the world of Antichrist, the man of lawlessness and anarchy, the last and most powerful enemy of Christ and His Church, is - in the teaching of St. John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church - lawful authority, as represented and symbolized by the Roman Empire.  This idea was incarnated supremely in the Christian Empire: first in Byzantium, when Constantinople was the Second Rome, and then in the Orthodox Russian Empire, when Moscow was the Third Rome.  In 1917 the "Constantinian Age" came to an end, the Orthodox Empire was overthrown - and the world, beginning with Moscow, has been thrown into an age of lawlessness and atheism (and in Church life, of apostasy) such as has not yet been seen.

Tsar Nicholas II was the last representative of this ideal of lawful Christian authority, and the age of lawlessness began appropriately with his murder. http://startingontheroyalpath.blogspot.com/2011/05/tsar-martyr-nicholas.html

but we don't see the Antichrist so something else must be stopping him. Also Daniel identifies the Roman Empire as the one destroyed by the Kingdom of God.

Quote
The monk Monk Zacharia (Liebmann), in his “The Life of Tsar Nicholas II” stated
“The Holy Apostle Paul in the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, writes: ‘The mystery of iniquity is already in action but is not fulfilled up to today, until there be taken away from the midst he who restraineth’ (II Thessalonians 2:7). Our spiritual writer, Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and others explain that by this’ he who restraineth’ one can understand the power of the Tsar.”10 The Orthodox Tsar was “the bearer of the consciousness that the Supreme authority should be obedient go God, should receive sanctification and strength from Him to follow God’s commandments. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions … The battle against him was closely bound up with the battle against God and faith.”

Looking back, and at the present, we can clearly see that since the removal of “he who restraineth” the power of Satan is no longer held back. We stand as horrified witnesses to the unleashing of evil which has occurred since 1917 in all aspects of life. The world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist in a way that was not possible before…
but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

Quote
In the world today examples of godlessness abound — nuclear weapons, dangerous genetics experiments, pollution, wars, famines and terrible new diseases In the realm of morality, shameless excesses are committed. Millions of unborn children are slaughtered each year. Perversity has become an accepted “choice.” Drug use is killing off young people, who are listening to so-called music with satanic overtones. And one could go on.

Jesus tells you this will just be the start.

Quote
This has happened because people have lost Jesus Christ in their hearts. There is no Christian nation, no right-believing ruler to set the tone. Divided and scattered, we are easy prey for the fallen spirit of the world. http://saintsilouan.org/2010/07/royal-martyrs/
this is why people will welcome the antichrist.

Quote
The Church will not be removed, for  the Lord said. “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). 

the two are not mutually exclusive.
Quote
There will be no “Rapture of believers” aside from that which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ when believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).”  This being “caught up” immediately precedes the Great Judgment and is not separated by any period of tribulation solely for unbelievers.

You've just contradicted yourself by quoting the very passage which tells you there WILL be a Rapture! Regarding the timing - I've pointed out that the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent.

Quote
As St. Andrew of Crete says in his commentary on the Apocalypse (Book of Revelations):
caught up in the clouds to meet him, and he will come (as) a judge, as creator and master of creation, handing over to the saints to judge those who opposed the truly divine and blessed slavery, as the Apostle says, Do you not know that we will judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:3), that is, the rulers of darkness(Eph 6:12).

all true

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« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 04:22:34 PM »

Not to mention, rachel, you NEVER responded to my post about Jesus' parable of the Wheat and Tares and you NEVER gave us scriptural proof of the rapture.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2013, 04:32:33 PM »

Quote
but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

Quote
the two are not mutually exclusive.

Yes they are. How culdn't they?
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« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 05:27:42 PM »

This one, James?

Dear rachel,

How would you respond to Jesus' Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being.  It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided.  James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee?  Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!...  Roll Eyes ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions.  For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?"  (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2013, 02:38:16 AM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

24     Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25     Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26     And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


and this is how it works out - with thanks to Chuck Missler.

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year;4 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)


The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.5 (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)

During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".6



Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it.7 On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:9

Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King.8 However, Jesus endorsed it!

I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.9

this leaves us with one 'week of years remaining - and here it is in Daniel.

27     And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Furthermore, Gabriel tells us that this seven year period is split in two by the Antichrist setting aside the treaty with Israel. The second half of the Tribulation is what the  Bible calls, the Time of Jacob's trouble.

Now the outstanding question is the reality and timing of the Rapture.

This is what I mean by Protestants delving into the occult and obsessive numerology. Either way, it's important to note that numbers in the Bible don't carry literal significance, rather, they symbolize spiritual concepts. This is an example of what I said earlier about Americans not giving enough attention to literary techniques and philology, only accepting things at face value. Also, none of what you said proves the rapture at all, it only advocates some weird Zionist conspiracy.

This is a very odd thing to say. Gabriel told Daniel there would be 70 weeks and obviously he meant something by it. One minute one has an Orthodox coming on and pointing out the meaning of the number seven and the next you have one complaining about Protestant numerology!

As for the occult, it doesn't come into it - I could point out that the veneration of icons is occultic.

As for numbers not carrying literal significance, this is most strange. When God attaches a number of years to a genealogy for example, it tells us something literal. Now, the fact that Orthodoxy has no insight into these things is another matter. Why don't you just say so? Since your insight is supposedly 'spiritual', go ahead and give me the 'spiritual' meaning of Daniel's 70 weeks. It is the cover story for every gap in Orthodox thinking.

Now, as for proof of the Rapture; unless you're about to deny scripture outright, we know the phenomenon exists. The only question is 'when'. I have now pointed out a couple of times that Revelation 19 has the Church in Heaven immediately BEFORE the Second Advent. Either you have a rational explanation for this or you don't. If you don't EXPECT a rational expectation then clearly you are just prepared to disengage your mind on the subject - which is presumably why you've just come back to me with a blanket denial!
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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2013, 02:47:40 AM »

This one, James?

Dear rachel,

How would you respond to Jesus' Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being.

you may not have noticed that I'm having to exercise patience too.

 
Quote
It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided.  James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee?  Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!...  Roll Eyes ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions. 

aah! A forum without debate? That's novel!
Quote
For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?"  (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)
Do you remember when Samuel said to Saul, "what is the sound of bleating that I hear"? Do you think perhaps God may just be interested in our obedience and not in our rationalisations? I wasn't asking WHY you disobey, I was just pointing out that you do.
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2013, 03:07:51 AM »

Quote
but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

well, it gets to Heaven before the Advent somehow! Do you mean you are unconvinced by scripture?

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (in Context)


do you think it is a coincidence that in Revelation, the Church disappears throughout the WHOLE of the description of the Tribulation and God's judgement on the EARTH?

It is the Church which is the receptacle of the Gospel. Why do you think that here:

Revelation 14:6
[ Vision of the Angel with the Gospel ] And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Revelation 14:5-7 (in Context)


the Gospel is having to be returned to the earth?

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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2013, 03:44:59 AM »

Quote
but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

well, it gets to Heaven before the Advent somehow! Do you mean you are unconvinced by scripture?

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (in Context)


do you think it is a coincidence that in Revelation, the Church disappears throughout the WHOLE of the description of the Tribulation and God's judgement on the EARTH?

It is the Church which is the receptacle of the Gospel. Why do you think that here:

Revelation 14:6
[ Vision of the Angel with the Gospel ] And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Revelation 14:5-7 (in Context)


the Gospel is having to be returned to the earth?



I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. This does in no way indicate that the Church shall dissapear before the Second Coming. Again, this is just your interpretation.

If all christians could just interpret the scriptures by themselves, there would have been no reason for the apostles to write the Epistles. The christians in Corinth and Thessalonika and all the other places could just have understood the faith by themselves.
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2013, 04:06:32 AM »

Quote
As for numbers not carrying literal significance, this is most strange. When God attaches a number of years to a genealogy for example, it tells us something literal. Now, the fact that Orthodoxy has no insight into these things is another matter. Why don't you just say so? Since your insight is supposedly 'spiritual', go ahead and give me the 'spiritual' meaning of Daniel's 70 weeks. It is the cover story for every gap in Orthodox thinking.

I see.  From Matthew 18:

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Therefore, by Rachel's logic, we are obliged to forgive the sins of others up to 490 times. After that, we are not required to do so.  Shocked Roll Eyes laugh
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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2013, 06:02:45 AM »

Quote
but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

It means that they prepare to do it. It is like preparing for death. You don't know how or when it's gonna happen, but you know it will. People do it without even being aware of it.

And IO have still not seen anything that has convinced me that the Church shall disappear before the coming of Antichrist.

well, it gets to Heaven before the Advent somehow! Do you mean you are unconvinced by scripture?

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (in Context)


do you think it is a coincidence that in Revelation, the Church disappears throughout the WHOLE of the description of the Tribulation and God's judgement on the EARTH?

It is the Church which is the receptacle of the Gospel. Why do you think that here:

Revelation 14:6
[ Vision of the Angel with the Gospel ] And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Revelation 14:5-7 (in Context)


the Gospel is having to be returned to the earth?



I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. This does in no way indicate that the Church shall dissapear before the Second Coming. Again, this is just your interpretation.

that is just a tired myth. Which bit requires "interpretation"? Either the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent or it isn't. "Ridiculous" is not an answer.

Quote
If all christians could just interpret the scriptures by themselves, there would have been no reason for the apostles to write the Epistles. The christians in Corinth and Thessalonika and all the other places could just have understood the faith by themselves.
but this is just an assertion that there is no value in teaching. We KNOW why the Epistles were written; so that we can check men's ideas against them. That's where I check mine, where do you check yours?
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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2013, 06:08:52 AM »

Quote
that is just a tired myth. Which bit requires "interpretation"? Either the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent or it isn't. "Ridiculous" is not an answer.

It is not! None of what you have quoted suggest that the Church will not be present. The Church is on Earth and in heaven, united by Christ, who is the head of the Church.

Quote
but this is just an assertion that there is no value in teaching. We KNOW why the Epistles were written; so that we can check men's ideas against them. That's where I check mine, where do you check yours?

I read the scriptures, but at least I have the humility to accept that other people are more wise than I and trust that the early christians probably knew more about how the scriptures should be understood than we do.
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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2013, 06:56:16 AM »



Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

yes, you base doctrine on an assumption. The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

Quote
But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.

"there is a way that seemeth right to a man" etc. You are called to subject common sense to Jesus.

There does not exist one definition of common sense. What is reasonable to one person may be nonsense to another.

try, 'that which is rational', as in, is it rational to assume the Church goes straight up and straight back down when Revelation tells us it's already in heaven?!!!!!!!
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2013, 07:03:54 AM »



Um... Scripture doesn't say that they didn't include children, so we exercise common sense in assuming that they did. You know, like most normal households, since there's no sign they weren't normal households.

yes, you base doctrine on an assumption. The idea that babies DECIDE to enter into a relationship with Christ is far removed from "common sense"

Quote
But obviously common sense is extra-scriptural as well. Learn something new every day. Carry on.

"there is a way that seemeth right to a man" etc. You are called to subject common sense to Jesus.

There does not exist one definition of common sense. What is reasonable to one person may be nonsense to another.

try, 'that which is rational', as in, is it rational to assume the Church goes straight up and straight back down when Revelation tells us it's already in heaven?!!!!!!!

As I have already said, the Church exists in Heaven AND on Earth. The Church shall never dissapear for Christ promised that he would be with us until the end of days and the Church is the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2013, 09:01:38 AM »

Here is Daniel's 70 weeks

How does any of this relate to the Rapture or to the claim that the Church, which the gates of Hades will not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), will cease to exist on earth?

it relates via the Tribulation. Thus I have shown how the Tribulation is separated from the other 69 weeks first. Then we see this in Theassalonians:

6 And you know (A)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For (B)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (C)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one (D)will be revealed whom the Lord will slay (E)with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the (F)appearance of His [a]coming;

we know this is referring to the Antichrist by other scriptures [ie the manner of his demise]. What restrains him at present is the  Holy Spirit in the Church. Thus the Church will be removed. This is referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4. This is why, in Revelation 19, we find that the Church is ALREADY in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Advent.

According to the  paradigm posted here, Orthodox eschatology has the Church meeting Christ in the air and coming straight back down again!! Now THAT is absurd!

Furthermore this does not refer to the last trump but if you think the 'last trump' will be the last which ever sounds,  you are mistaken.


1 Thessalonians 4:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


16 For the Lord (A)Himself (B)will descend from heaven with a [a](C)shout, with the voice of (D)the archangel and with the (E)trumpet of God, and (F)the dead in Christ will rise first.


“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way(2 Thess 2:7).”  This verse does not refer to the Church as “He who now restrains” but to the Orthodox empire and emperor/Tsar.  The Church has interpreted this verse in these terms from ancient times.

which scripture tells you this? If it's true, why hasn't the Antichrist come to power yet? The guarantee of a prophet is that his prophecy comes to pass.

“Until” does not imply that the Antichrist will come “immediately” after the removal of “He who now restrains".  


Quote
St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century interprets this verse in this way in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, and the greatest Orthodox saints of recent times have as well (St. John the Wonderworker, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. John of Kronstadt, etc.).

see above - I'm St Rachel by the way since all Christians are saints.

This statement indicates that you do not understand the meaning of the term or how it was used in the New Testament and in the early Church.  Such interpretations of the saints have been accepted by the entire Church for centuries.  It is the Church that is the “pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15)”.  Upon the authority of the undivided Church we accept the Scriptures as inspired.  Upon the same authority we accept the interpretations of the saints which have been handed down to us over centuries as being themselves authoritative.  You claim to believe in the Scriptures, but these are our Scriptures; compiled, preserved, and handed down by the same Orthodox Church of which we here are members.  If some members of this forum come across as offended due to your questioning, it is due in part to the frustration over seeing someone take what is ours, completely distort it, and then use it to beat us up with.  Of course, this occurred even at the time of the Apostles.  St. Peter wrote concerning the writings of St. Paul that, "our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15,16)."

Quote
It was understood that the Roman (sometimes called “Byzantine”) Empire, which was established as an Orthodox Empire since St. Constantine the Great, was a great Christian force which restrained the spirit of antichrist.  When Constantinople fell, the legacy of the Orthodox Tzar/Emperor continued in Russia until the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917.  Prior to the martyrdom of Tzar Nicholas II (it was a martyrdom because he was killed by anti-Christian forces specifically in an attempt to destroy the influence and authority of the Church in Russian society), many saints such as St. John of Kronstadt prophesied that the Tzar would be killed and that the spirit of antichrist would spread throughout the world prior to the coming of the Antichrist himself.

well this can;t be right because the Bible itself tells you that the spirit of antichrist was abroad and that was before the Tzar was ever HEARD of!

This does not say that “only then” will the spirit of antichrist spread abroad, but is speaking in terms of degrees.  The spirit of antichrist will become even more pervasive and widespread after the martyrdom of the Tsar than before.  History has shown that this is the case.

 
Quote
St. John of San Francisco stated in his Homily on the Sunday of the Dread Judgment:
The appearance of the Antichrist is already being prepared before his coming: “The mystery doth already work …”
First of all, the forces preparing for his coming fight against lawful monarchical rule. The holy Apostle Paul says that the Antichrist cannot appear until “the one who restraineth” is put aside. John Chrysostom explains that the “one who restraineth” refers to a lawful, pious regime. Such a power struggles with evil. “The mystery” working in the world does not want this, does not want the struggle against evil by the power of a pious ruler – quite the opposite. It wants the rule of lawlessness, and when it achieves this, nothing more will stop the appearance of the Antichrist. http://orthodoxword.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/st-john-maximovitch-the-wonderworker-of-shanghai-and-san-francisco/

so is this a different version to the Tsar one or not? Everyone seems to have a different opinion. I thought you had unanimity of belief.

No, the words of St. John of San Francisco are consistent with the quotes provided previously.

Quote
Fr. Seraphim (Rose) stated:
size=10pt] That which restraineth the appearance in the world of Antichrist, the man of lawlessness and anarchy, the last and most powerful enemy of Christ and His Church, is - in the teaching of St. John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church - lawful authority, as represented and symbolized by the Roman Empire.  This idea was incarnated supremely in the Christian Empire: first in Byzantium, when Constantinople was the Second Rome, and then in the Orthodox Russian Empire, when Moscow was the Third Rome.  In 1917 the "Constantinian Age" came to an end, the Orthodox Empire was overthrown - and the world, beginning with Moscow, has been thrown into an age of lawlessness and atheism (and in Church life, of apostasy) such as has not yet been seen.

Tsar Nicholas II was the last representative of this ideal of lawful Christian authority, and the age of lawlessness began appropriately with his murder. http://startingontheroyalpath.blogspot.com/2011/05/tsar-martyr-nicholas.html

but we don't see the Antichrist so something else must be stopping him. Also Daniel identifies the Roman Empire as the one destroyed by the Kingdom of God.

See above.  “Immediately” is implied by you but not by the Scriptures.

Quote
The monk Monk Zacharia (Liebmann), in his “The Life of Tsar Nicholas II” stated
“The Holy Apostle Paul in the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, writes: ‘The mystery of iniquity is already in action but is not fulfilled up to today, until there be taken away from the midst he who restraineth’ (II Thessalonians 2:7). Our spiritual writer, Bishop Theophan the Recluse, and others explain that by this’ he who restraineth’ one can understand the power of the Tsar.”10 The Orthodox Tsar was “the bearer of the consciousness that the Supreme authority should be obedient go God, should receive sanctification and strength from Him to follow God’s commandments. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions … The battle against him was closely bound up with the battle against God and faith.”

Looking back, and at the present, we can clearly see that since the removal of “he who restraineth” the power of Satan is no longer held back. We stand as horrified witnesses to the unleashing of evil which has occurred since 1917 in all aspects of life. The world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist in a way that was not possible before…

but there isn't anything special about 1917. No-one can "enthrone" the antichrist when they don't know who he is. Furthermore, scripture tells us that the Church won't leave at the Rapture until we DO know who he is.

The statement above that “the world is rushing to embrace and enthrone antichrist” does not imply a knowledge of who the Antichrist is, only that the world is more rapidly embracing the spirit of antichrist which will eventually lead to the enthronement of the Antichrist.  

The Church will not leave at the Rapture.  The word “Rapture” is not Scriptural.  It is the invention of heretics.  

Quote
In the world today examples of godlessness abound — nuclear weapons, dangerous genetics experiments, pollution, wars, famines and terrible new diseases In the realm of morality, shameless excesses are committed. Millions of unborn children are slaughtered each year. Perversity has become an accepted “choice.” Drug use is killing off young people, who are listening to so-called music with satanic overtones. And one could go on.

Jesus tells you this will just be the start.

Yes, nothing I stated or quoted implies otherwise.

Quote
This has happened because people have lost Jesus Christ in their hearts. There is no Christian nation, no right-believing ruler to set the tone. Divided and scattered, we are easy prey for the fallen spirit of the world. http://saintsilouan.org/2010/07/royal-martyrs/
this is why people will welcome the antichrist.

Quote
The Church will not be removed, for  the Lord said. “the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18).

the two are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, they are mutually exclusive.  

Quote
There will be no “Rapture of believers” aside from that which will occur at the Second Coming of Christ when believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).”  This being “caught up” immediately precedes the Great Judgment and is not separated by any period of tribulation solely for unbelievers.

You've just contradicted yourself by quoting the very passage which tells you there WILL be a Rapture! Regarding the timing - I've pointed out that the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent.

There is no contradiction.  It appears to be a contradiction to you only because you have interpreted the verse in a way that contradicts the meaning of the verse.  There will be no Rapture in the sense of the “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” which has been the focus of this discussion.  As has been pointed out, the Church is even now in heaven and on earth.  That is why we in the Church have such a close relationship with the saints who lived before us and who have been glorified by God for their obedience to his will.  The Church is in heaven and on earth, and those saints who have come before us are part of the same body of Christ.  They have fought for, died for, preserved, and handed down the same faith that they received from the Holy Apostles and continues to be followed in its entirety in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2013, 09:27:34 AM »

Rachel,

I don't know if you have read the links I shared on the Orthodox view of the Rapture, but I do recommend reading them if you are truly interested in understanding and are not simply trying to "prove that you are right".  Of course, anyone is welcome on this forum who wants to learn about and better understand the Orthodox faith.  Your messages, however, seem to indicate that you are trying to "show that Orthodoxy is wrong" or "prove that your sectarian Protestant beliefs are right" based on strange interpretations of our Holy Scriptures.  If you believe that you have the truth, then go your way.  There is nothing anyone here can do to help you.  Here we know that the Orthodox Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth", and so you are wasting a great deal of time and energy if your intent is to convert to or convince us of your strange personal beliefs.  If you are genuinely interesting in learning and understanding, then please consider how your messages might be written to express a more humble and respectful attitude. 

It is clear that Sola Scriptura, "Scripture alone", is a central doctrine of yours.  If so, please read the following article from an Orthodox priest who also once believed this doctrine:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

Some further dialogue between the author and critics can be read here:

http://www.saintjonah.org/articles/responses_sola.htm

If you have questions about this doctrine that are not covered in these pieces, feel free to begin a separate thread on this forum to discuss your questions, or try to find an existing thread with a Sola Scriptura theme to post on.  Or, better yet, contact the author of the article.

The biggest question raised by the thread so far is the question of interpretation and authority.  If you begin to understand how the Scriptures came down to us from the early Church, and how the early Church (who understood the original languages and lived close to the time of the Apostles) interpreted the Scriptures, you will begin to understand why the Orthodox Church believes as it does and why we here find your approach to be filled with error.  I don't know if you have any knowledge of Church history, but the Church has been confronted with enumerable heretics since the time of the Apostles, and we here who are familiar with this history, know how the heretics have always (mis)used and abused the Scriptures "to their own destruction", to use the words of St. Peter.  To you, it may seem like you are starting a fresh debate.  To us, it is just another encounter with the deceptions spread by the Father of Lies.     
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2013, 10:18:19 AM »

Rachel,

I don't know if you have read the links I shared on the Orthodox view of the Rapture, but I do recommend reading them if you are truly interested in understanding and are not simply trying to "prove that you are right".  Of course, anyone is welcome on this forum who wants to learn about and better understand the Orthodox faith.  Your messages, however, seem to indicate that you are trying to "show that Orthodoxy is wrong" or "prove that your sectarian Protestant beliefs are right" based on strange interpretations of our Holy Scriptures.  If you believe that you have the truth, then go your way.  There is nothing anyone here can do to help you.  Here we know that the Orthodox Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth", and so you are wasting a great deal of time and energy if your intent is to convert to or convince us of your strange personal beliefs.  If you are genuinely interesting in learning and understanding, then please consider how your messages might be written to express a more humble and respectful attitude. 

It is clear that Sola Scriptura, "Scripture alone", is a central doctrine of yours.  If so, please read the following article from an Orthodox priest who also once believed this doctrine:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

Some further dialogue between the author and critics can be read here:

http://www.saintjonah.org/articles/responses_sola.htm

If you have questions about this doctrine that are not covered in these pieces, feel free to begin a separate thread on this forum to discuss your questions, or try to find an existing thread with a Sola Scriptura theme to post on.  Or, better yet, contact the author of the article.

The biggest question raised by the thread so far is the question of interpretation and authority.  If you begin to understand how the Scriptures came down to us from the early Church, and how the early Church (who understood the original languages and lived close to the time of the Apostles) interpreted the Scriptures, you will begin to understand why the Orthodox Church believes as it does and why we here find your approach to be filled with error.  I don't know if you have any knowledge of Church history, but the Church has been confronted with enumerable heretics since the time of the Apostles, and we here who are familiar with this history, know how the heretics have always (mis)used and abused the Scriptures "to their own destruction", to use the words of St. Peter.  To you, it may seem like you are starting a fresh debate.  To us, it is just another encounter with the deceptions spread by the Father of Lies.     

+1  Exceptionally well-written.
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2013, 01:55:11 PM »

Funny how European Protestants are much less likely to believe in the Rapture. It's virtually unknown among Protestants here.
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2013, 01:57:20 PM »

Funny how European Protestants are much less likely to believe in the Rapture. It's virtually unknown among Protestants here.


The only reason why I was exposed to the rapture, in the first place,, was because I watched the Simpsons.
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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2013, 02:02:23 PM »

Funny how European Protestants are much less likely to believe in the Rapture. It's virtually unknown among Protestants here.

Yep.  Another "proud to be an American" moment. Most American Protestants seem to think that we're somehow "chosen."  I love my country but...dang.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/americas-god-is-dying.html
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2013, 02:05:44 PM »

Funny how European Protestants are much less likely to believe in the Rapture. It's virtually unknown among Protestants here.

Yep.  Another "proud to be an American" moment. Most American Protestants seem to think that we're somehow "chosen."  I love my country but...dang.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/americas-god-is-dying.html

The US is an adolescent country, and like all adolescents, it believes it knows everything there is to know about everything. Don't be too hard on the kid. Wink
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« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2013, 02:14:21 PM »

Quote
that is just a tired myth. Which bit requires "interpretation"? Either the Church is in heaven before the Second Advent or it isn't. "Ridiculous" is not an answer.

It is not! None of what you have quoted suggest that the Church will not be present. The Church is on Earth and in heaven, united by Christ, who is the head of the Church.

Are you suggesting that the WHOLE Church won't be present at the Wedding Supper?



MARRIAGE SUPPER
7     Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8     And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9     And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10     And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11     ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

SECOND ADVENT

12     His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13     And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14     And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15     And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16     And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17     And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18     That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

ARMAGEDDON
19     And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 02:16:31 PM by rachel » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2013, 02:21:12 PM »

Quote
ah, you don't sin,  so you don't need salvation ie. Satan has come along and whispered into your ear, "hath God said.....?" Have you never read of God's anger with Israel's sin?

He didn't say that. You're putting words into his mouth. Nowhere did he say that he didn't sin, he just gave another definiton of Salvation than you.

which of these do you dispute?

1.
Orthodoxy believes that baptism is a precondition for salvation. Without baptism, it is impossible to have salvation.
2.
Orthodoxy considers baptism as a “mystery,” even “the first mystery” in “the first Gospel.”
3.
Orthodoxy claims baptism cleanses a person from all sins committed both by himself and his ancestors.
4.
Orthodoxy accepts the baptism of infants and small children who are baptized on the basis of the godfather’s faith, who then becomes the spiritual father of the child.
5.
Orthodoxy claims the name of the child christened under the godfather to be entered in the “Book of Life” that the Lamb possesses in heaven.
6.
Orthodoxy considers the name of the baptized one is recorded in the annals of “Those Born and Christened in the Church of Christ.”



Wow!! !! !!
Are you serious right now???
Where did you get this statements from? I'm just curious....

No doubt you ARE here to prove us wrong!
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« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2013, 02:43:19 PM »

Funny how European Protestants are much less likely to believe in the Rapture. It's virtually unknown among Protestants here.

Yep.  Another "proud to be an American" moment. Most American Protestants seem to think that we're somehow "chosen."  I love my country but...dang.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/02/americas-god-is-dying.html

The US is an adolescent country, and like all adolescents, it believes it knows everything there is to know about everything. Don't be too hard on the kid. Wink

After raising 6 of them, I came to understand why some lions eat their young.   Grin  (In truth, I enjoyed every minute of it...almost every minute of it...)
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« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2013, 06:28:39 PM »

This one, James?

Dear rachel,

How would you respond to Jesus' Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Matthew. 13:24-30 NJKV).

This parable shines very much light upon the nature of the End, and answers the question of whether or not the Rapture is true. In this parable, the wheat is NOT gathered before the tares, rather, they are gathered together at the same time--which is the harvest, or, being less metaphoric, the Second Coming/End of the World/Judgement Day etc. If the rapture is true, then how come Jesus doesn't mention it at all in this parable, which, is clearly about the end of the world? If the rapture were true, then the wheat should have been gathered before the tares, but in this parable, they are not gathered until the time of the harvest, and they are gathered together.

Going further, this proves that the Scriptures NicholasMyra earlier quoted were in fact about the "Second Advent" opposed to the "rapture"--which, doesn't exist.

rachel, these folks are more patient with you at this moment than I'm capable of being.  It appears to me that you aren't reading any of the many links provided.  James, among others, has responded to you and you respond with Pharisee?  Rather than toss "call no man father"...'cuz, yeah, we've never thought of that!...  Roll Eyes ...I've been taught that when one is a guest, one poses questions.  For example, "Why is it that the Orthodox Church uses the title of 'Father'?"  (Although, this has already been answered, but I doubt that you've considered the responses.)

To refrain, rachel, you've still yet to respond to this parable--which, clearly demonstrates that the concept of a rapture is unfound in Scripture.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2013, 06:36:41 PM »

And as a reminder, rachel, you still haven't proven the rapture to us--which is the original purpose of this topic--but have taken it off into twenty different directions alongside with personal insults. You've made it well known that you don't understand Orthodox theology, but you still insult us. You've ignored and/or misunderstood most of the arguments presented here, and you've asked the same questions after we've consistently answered them.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
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« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2013, 07:31:53 PM »

Whether something is popular or not is surely not the issue. The issue is 'what is truth?' The rapture is scriptural:
1 Corinthians 15 v51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Is God's word to be trusted? He says it is:
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

The rapture as the Dispensationalists expound it is definitely NOT scriptural at all. You misinterpret the scriptures. Paul told the Thessalonians that Christ would return in THEIR lifetime . He said that Christ would be revealed from heaven to give THEM rest from THEIR persecutions (2 Thessalonians 2:8-13).

Paul said that the living would be caught up to meet the Lord in the breath. Their dead bodies would be left behind for their loved ones to bury.
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2013, 06:53:35 PM »

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« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2013, 02:04:46 PM »

Quote
Interview with a Dispensational Presuppositionalist: Dr. Christopher Cone of Tyndale Theological Seminary



Undergraduate Studies, Moody Bible Institute
BBS, Tyndale Biblical Institute
MBS, Scofield Graduate School
ThD, Scofield Graduate School
MEd, Regent University
PhD, Trinity School of Apologetics & Theology (India)
PhD, University of North Texas

One of his doctoral dissertation has the most interesting of titles: Dissertation: Prolegomena: A Survey and Introduction to Method in Theology, Beginning with Presuppositional Epistemology and Resulting in Normative Dispensational Theology. That definitely interests me as I enjoy the relationship between theological method, epistemology, hermeneutics, Presuppositionalism and eschatology.

I am fascinated with your doctoral dissertation through the Trinity School of Theology as it touches on Presuppositional apologetics and Dispensationalism. Can you tell us a little about what it’s about?

The project was the fruit of years of research and teaching in the areas of epistemology, hermeneutics, and theological method. In observing the connection between each discipline and their interdependence, it seemed reasonable that we should develop our theology with consistency from the ground up, rather than appealing partially to various traditions that are sometimes mutually exclusive.  In doing that work I recognized that presuppositionalism was more epistemology than apologetics, and should have a foundational role in theological method.

veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/interview-with-a-dispensational-presuppositionalist-dr-christopher-cone-of-tyndale-seminary
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« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2013, 04:53:18 PM »

Quote
Interview with a Dispensational Presuppositionalist: Dr. Christopher Cone of Tyndale Theological Seminary



Undergraduate Studies, Moody Bible Institute
BBS, Tyndale Biblical Institute
MBS, Scofield Graduate School
ThD, Scofield Graduate School
MEd, Regent University
PhD, Trinity School of Apologetics & Theology (India)
PhD, University of North Texas

One of his doctoral dissertation has the most interesting of titles: Dissertation: Prolegomena: A Survey and Introduction to Method in Theology, Beginning with Presuppositional Epistemology and Resulting in Normative Dispensational Theology. That definitely interests me as I enjoy the relationship between theological method, epistemology, hermeneutics, Presuppositionalism and eschatology.

I am fascinated with your doctoral dissertation through the Trinity School of Theology as it touches on Presuppositional apologetics and Dispensationalism. Can you tell us a little about what it’s about?

The project was the fruit of years of research and teaching in the areas of epistemology, hermeneutics, and theological method. In observing the connection between each discipline and their interdependence, it seemed reasonable that we should develop our theology with consistency from the ground up, rather than appealing partially to various traditions that are sometimes mutually exclusive.  In doing that work I recognized that presuppositionalism was more epistemology than apologetics, and should have a foundational role in theological method.

veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/interview-with-a-dispensational-presuppositionalist-dr-christopher-cone-of-tyndale-seminary

not gonna lie, that was a bit over my head, mind putting that in English?
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« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2013, 05:43:15 PM »

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« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2013, 11:43:08 PM »

The rapture was made up in about the later 1800's -1900
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« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2013, 11:54:56 AM »

Never has there been as stupid of a teaching using such big words and involving study of one's own made up theories as dispensationalism.
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« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2013, 12:09:38 PM »

I went to register on a Protestant-oriented Christian forum once and it required registrants to pick one's end-time belief category on a list: Premillennialism, Preterism, Chiliasm, Post-tribulationism, Dispensationalism, etc. etc.

I justed wanted to pick "Normal", but that was not an option.

Someone on OC.net has probably come across that list.
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« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2013, 12:31:44 PM »

Never has there been as stupid of a teaching using such big words and involving study of one's own made up theories as dispensationalism.

If you understood that God works out his will across multiple dispensations through sanctified human agents such as Saint Paul you wouldn't make such comments, rooted as they are in an antidisestablishmentarianistic sentiment vis-à-vis the kingdom of God and His sovereign will coming to fruition through American hegemony.
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« Reply #89 on: September 03, 2013, 12:36:56 PM »

Never has there been as stupid of a teaching using such big words and involving study of one's own made up theories as dispensationalism.

If you understood that God works out his will across multiple dispensations through sanctified human agents such as Saint Paul you wouldn't make such comments, rooted as they are in an antidisestablishmentarianistic sentiment vis-à-vis the kingdom of God and His sovereign will coming to fruition through American hegemony.

Why do I suddently feel a lot less intelligent?
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« Reply #90 on: September 03, 2013, 12:39:47 PM »

I went to register on a Protestant-oriented Christian forum once and it required registrants to pick one's end-time belief category on a list: Premillennialism, Preterism, Chiliasm, Post-tribulationism, Dispensationalism, etc. etc.

I justed wanted to pick "Normal", but that was not an option.

Someone on OC.net has probably come across that list.

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« Reply #91 on: September 03, 2013, 01:04:07 PM »

I went to register on a Protestant-oriented Christian forum once and it required registrants to pick one's end-time belief category on a list: Premillennialism, Preterism, Chiliasm, Post-tribulationism, Dispensationalism, etc. etc.

I justed wanted to pick "Normal", but that was not an option.

Someone on OC.net has probably come across that list.

I hear big words and I'm all...

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« Reply #92 on: September 03, 2013, 03:03:46 PM »

I went to register on a Protestant-oriented Christian forum once and it required registrants to pick one's end-time belief category on a list: Premillennialism, Preterism, Chiliasm, Post-tribulationism, Dispensationalism, etc. etc.

I justed wanted to pick "Normal", but that was not an option.


That's really funny.
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« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2013, 03:05:30 PM »

These sound like the choices:
Quote
Post Millenialist    
Historical Premillenialism       
Dispensational Premillenialism    
Amillenialism       
Full Preterism       
Partial Preterism
Anti-Millenialism

www.christianforums.com/t2316446

Quote
Amillenialist    
   85%
Moltmannian Eschatology    
   65%
Premillenialist    
   50%
Postmillenialist    
   50%
Preterist    
   40%
Left Behind    
   40%
Dispensationalist    
   15%
http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/svensvensven/whats-your-eschatology
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« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2013, 03:21:17 PM »

LOL, not too much doubt about what I am!  I've never heard of Moltmannian Eschatology.  I'm gonna have to read up on that one.
Quote
Amillenialist  
 100%
Moltmannian Eschatology  
 75%
Preterist  
 75%
Postmillenialist  
 40%
Premillenialist  
 35%
Dispensationalist  
 5%
Left Behind  
 0%
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« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2013, 04:04:01 PM »

I'm 85% Amillenialist as well. The rest just made my brain hurt.
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« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2013, 04:10:57 PM »

Amillenialist - 100%
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« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2013, 04:16:15 PM »

*high-fives Asteriktos*
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« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2013, 04:17:02 PM »

*high-fives Asteriktos*

Stop trying to flatter him. It's too obvious.
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« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2013, 04:53:31 PM »

I always find it interesting that Protestants so easily throw out elements of Christianity that are documentable back to the earliest centuries, such as veneration of saints, prayers for the departed, apostolic succession, holy tradition, etc., but that they can so easily accept as fact this rather recent teaching of the rapture that was unknown to early Christians.
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« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2013, 05:03:32 PM »

I always find it interesting that Protestants so easily throw out elements of Christianity that are documentable back to the earliest centuries, such as veneration of saints, prayers for the departed, apostolic succession, holy tradition, etc., but that they can so easily accept as fact this rather recent teaching of the rapture that was unknown to early Christians.

Stop judging meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...Just show me the Christianity where I get free stuff and I can pray to get money.  And I get to heaven before Jesus does all that burning the world stuff.  Me and JC, BFFs!
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« Reply #101 on: September 03, 2013, 06:45:54 PM »

Rachel who do you think made the bible? Rember not all of Christ workings were re cored in book form.The Church held on to the other workings of Christ and past them down to the present day.....The Orthodox church.Also words like asleep are also used for people dead in Christ.To rise is to sleep no more in sin.1corinthians 15-50-58.
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« Reply #102 on: September 03, 2013, 07:02:10 PM »

I always find it interesting that Protestants so easily throw out elements of Christianity that are documentable back to the earliest centuries, such as veneration of saints, prayers for the departed, apostolic succession, holy tradition, etc., but that they can so easily accept as fact this rather recent teaching of the rapture that was unknown to early Christians.

In many (most?) cases they don't realize that it is recent. 

When you realize how much came from the likes of Finney (revivalism) and dispensationalism, it is astounding.  Most Evangelical Protestants don't realize how much of their heritage comes Ron the 19th century.
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« Reply #103 on: September 03, 2013, 07:38:16 PM »

({[fixed]})
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« Reply #104 on: September 03, 2013, 07:41:48 PM »

Rachel who do you think made the bible? Rember not all of Christ workings were re cored in book form.The Church held on to the other workings of Christ and past them down to the present day.....The Orthodox church.Also words like asleep are also used for people dead in Christ.To rise is to sleep no more in sin.1corinthians 15-50-58.
Rachel hasn't visited this forum since three months ago. I doubt that you'll get any kind of prompt response from her.
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« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2013, 06:44:40 AM »

I'm not a Moltmann kind of guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Moltmann
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« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2013, 11:12:35 AM »

i'm only 65% amillenialist...
 Shocked
but then i guessed the answer to half the questions as i didn't understand them!
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« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2013, 12:24:43 PM »

Amillenialist - 100%

Same here.
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« Reply #108 on: September 05, 2013, 02:02:04 PM »

With words like those, it's no wonder you get paragraphs like these:



Photo : Premillennialism Rapture Replacement Theology Supersessionism Christ On Throne Of David Now

(fansshare.com/community/uploads47/10395/premillennialism_rapture_replacement_theology_supersessionism_christ_on_throne_of_david_now/#QaSMW4lj5ztcGigB.99)
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« Reply #109 on: September 05, 2013, 02:04:21 PM »

"GOD ANGRY" is a great conversation starter.
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« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2013, 02:38:34 PM »

With words like those, it's no wonder you get paragraphs like these:



Photo : Premillennialism Rapture Replacement Theology Supersessionism Christ On Throne Of David Now

(fansshare.com/community/uploads47/10395/premillennialism_rapture_replacement_theology_supersessionism_christ_on_throne_of_david_now/#QaSMW4lj5ztcGigB.99)

 laugh GOD ANGRY!!!!
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« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2013, 10:28:58 AM »



GOD ANGRY
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« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2013, 10:32:55 AM »



GOD ANGRY

The name of the link in the image; "Belief in an angry God now linked to mental illness"

I'm inclined to agree with this. heh.

Like that Calvin and Hobbes cartoon that I can't find right now, when Calvin imagines himself as a creator God who is evil and cruel. He was a strange child. lol.
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« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2013, 10:33:38 AM »

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« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2013, 10:36:16 AM »



Is it just me, or do Evangelicals and Fundies treat God like a rabid monster that needs to be pacified to get Him to do what they want (i.e. "bless them.") I mean, I got that vibe growing up, but heh.
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« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2013, 10:37:30 AM »

I got that distinct impression as well growing up...
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« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2013, 10:51:15 AM »



I thought God was in therapy between the Testaments and wasn't angry any more  Huh Sad
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« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2013, 11:04:24 AM »



I thought God was in therapy between the Testaments and wasn't angry any more  Huh Sad
Not when it comes to sodomites, baby killers and the political party of Satan.
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« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2013, 11:04:37 AM »



Is it just me, or do Evangelicals and Fundies treat God like a rabid monster that needs to be pacified to get Him to do what they want (i.e. "bless them.") I mean, I got that vibe growing up, but heh.

Not just you.  Also, a great way to introduce oneself is "PREPARE TO MEET THY GOD AMOS 4:12"
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« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2013, 11:07:58 AM »



GOD ANGRY

Where does God get his nails done?  Nicely done.  And God is very smooth-skinned and muscular.
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« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2013, 11:10:52 AM »

I'm pretty sure when you are omnipotent, you can make a pretty sweet pair of nail clippers for yourself.  #isthisblasphemy
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« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2013, 11:13:07 AM »

If God is omnipotent, why is there any type of resistance from the earth in this picture?  There would be no explosions, just God's Holy Fist causing it to disappear.
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« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2013, 11:17:14 AM »



I thought God was in therapy between the Testaments and wasn't angry any more  Huh Sad
Not when it comes to sodomites, baby killers and the political party of Satan.

I wonder if, in centuries past, they painted signs on barns that said things like "God hates Whigs"
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« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2013, 11:19:18 AM »

If God is omnipotent, why is there any type of resistance from the earth in this picture?  There would be no explosions, just God's Holy Fist causing it to disappear.

Imagine if God didn't cause the ground to open up and suck people down, or turn them to salt, or have fire rain down on them, and instead they just disappeared. That's not nearly as good a story. Also, God is saving the disappearance stuff for the rapture.
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« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2013, 11:20:09 AM »

If God is omnipotent, why is there any type of resistance from the earth in this picture?  There would be no explosions, just God's Holy Fist causing it to disappear.
He created the resistance so He could display an impressive visual destruction.
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« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2013, 11:22:02 AM »



I thought God was in therapy between the Testaments and wasn't angry any more  Huh Sad
Not when it comes to sodomites, baby killers and the political party of Satan.

I wonder if, in centuries past, they painted signs on barns that said things like "God hates Whigs"

Well, there is the satanic Abe Lincoln picture...

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« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2013, 11:23:06 AM »

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« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2013, 11:31:27 AM »



I thought God was in therapy between the Testaments and wasn't angry any more  Huh Sad
Not when it comes to sodomites, baby killers and the political party of Satan.

I wonder if, in centuries past, they painted signs on barns that said things like "God hates Whigs"

Well, there is the satanic Abe Lincoln picture...



Just one demon? Angry
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« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2013, 11:33:39 AM »

Also, God is saving the disappearance stuff for the rapture.

Not.

Luke 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

Acts 8:29 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
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« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2013, 11:42:27 AM »

The expanded version elaborates on the theatrics that accompanied those examples  Cool
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